BART appeals for calm as footage shows shooting (Fatal shooting by officer of suspect on ground)

[CreekDog]

Source: San Francisco Chronicle

BART appeals for calm as footage shows shooting

Demian Bulwa, Chronicle Staff Writer

Monday, January 5, 2009

(01-04) 19:38 PST Oakland -- BART's police chief asked for patience from the public on Sunday after video footage surfaced showing one of his officers fatally shooting an unarmed man who was on the ground on a station platform on New Year's Day, and after an attorney for the dead man's family said he planned to sue the transit agency for $25 million.

That officer, a 2-year veteran, has not been publicly identified and has been placed on routine administrative leave. BART officials have said only that his handgun discharged at about 2:15 a.m. on Thursday morning at the Fruitvale station in Oakland, and that the bullet struck the unarmed Grant who had been detained, along with several others.

Officials have not said whether the officer intended to shoot Grant. One source familiar with the investigation said BART is looking into a number of things, including whether the officer had meant to fire his Taser stun gun rather than his firearm.

<snip>

Video footage, first shown by KTVU-TV, shows officers forcing Grant to the ground and trying to hold him down. The officer who shot Grant appears to try to put cuffs on him before drawing his weapon and firing. In the video, Grant appears to struggle with the officers, though it is unclear exactly what he was doing.


Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/0...

---

(Please note the video at the link...the person who shot the video goes on to explain what she saw as she took the footage...the shooting is at about the 3:00 mark)

And I am speechless and horrified.

[BlooInBloo]

1. Yah. Be patient while they shoot more of the public in the back. Fuck them.

[CreekDog]

2. awful. never seen anything like this.

i'm glad people had the presence of mind to film this.

SHOT IN THE BACK WHILE ON THE GROUND! Damn!!!

[AtheistCrusader]

21. I'm not even sure what I DID see...

Was it the guy lying on his side on the left, or one of the guys on the ground in the background that got shot? None of them are moving.

Video is clear as mud.

[DRoseDARs]

26. I really hate amateur-shot video. They may as well have the camera shoved up their own ass...

...for all the quality and detail we get. If you're trying to record something on video, look at the action through the camera, not your own eyes. Otherwise, your eyes will be seeing one thing and the camera will be recording something else ... probably the inside of your ass. And the Blair Witch shakycam shit needs to fucking stop.

[ellisonz]

28. Seriously?

[DRoseDARs]

31. Yes, seriously. The camera person had every opportunity to hold the camera upright and still.

Instead, they chose to tilt it, shake it, and point it at random things unrelated to where the officers and the suspects were. All of this happens when you look at action with your own eyes instead of using the camera to ensure that what you're looking at is what is being recorded.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. In fairness, the person who had the camera, just got it as a gift.

So I don't expect hollywood steadycam-like shooting, but damn if this video really reveals anything.

Also, I'd hate to be a cop with all that pressure, and heckling from the crowd, as they are trying to do their jobs. I've never seent that sort of behavior here. People stay the hell out of the way, and while they aren't necessarily quiet, I've certainly never seen people shouting at the cops while trying to perform an arrest. Strange behavior.

[DRoseDARs]

38. I'll grant them that, but most people will do it anyway and there lies the problem we're stuck with.

eom

[Occulus]

53. Yeah, because everyone knows how to

build a steadycam.

[LisaL]

68. I didn't understand much either.

Who got shot, when did the shot happen, etc.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

3. Its not the first or the last time such things will happen

I remember a while back I saw the police video of an officer shoot a scared young man in the back. Wish I could find the video clip that went with this, it was scary.

==============================
Oklahoma County DA won't file charge in videotaped trooper shooting
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) _ A highway patrol trooper who shot an uncooperative, intoxicated motorist in the back was a rookie who made a ``split-second mistake,'' but she did not violate the law, Oklahoma County District Attorney Wes Lane said Friday.

Lateka Anderson, the first female, black trooper to graduate from the Oklahoma Highway Patrol academy, used excessive force during a June 7 traffic stop, Lane said. But her actions did not warrant a criminal charge because she ``may have avoided a public safety tragedy to innocent bystanders.''

Anderson, 24, shot Justin Lyle Thomas, 21, after he refused to put his hands behind him and tried to get away.

She had pulled him over for speeding on Interstate 35 in south Oklahoma City about 1 a.m. and given him a sobriety test. Thomas _ who had a blood-alcohol content of 0.09 percent, above the legal limit _ wobbled as he walked heel-to-toe along the side of the highway. He also had traces of marijuana in his system and a small amount of marijuana was found in his pickup truck after the shooting.

A videotape made by a camera in the patrol board shows Anderson screaming and cursing at Thomas to put his hands behind his back.

``You want to be shot?'' she yells. ``I got a gun.''
===============================================

[CreekDog]

6. Wow.

but not pressing charges is the bigger "wow".

[crikkett]

25. One more reason not to drive through Oklahoma

the other is that the cops are phlobotomists = they can take your blood on the spot, by force, hygene and due process be damned.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/4/6174688_8825fef514.jpg...

[IndianaGreen]

4. K&R n/t

[Politicalboi]

5. Wow what a video

BART is gonna pay big time for this. And even if the cop thought he was using a taser, the kid was already lying on the ground. Wonder if the cop had been in Iraq before working at BART. So used to shooting first with no consequences.

[saigon68]

74. meant to fire his Taser stun gun rather than his firearm.

HIS PERFECT DEFENSE===

A/K/A whoops

[killbotfactory]

7. How many people would give the benefit of the doubt to the cop without a video?

Police are above the law unless you videotape them, and even then sometimes.

[DRoseDARs]

8. Before someone freaks out over the "meant to fire his Taser stun gun rather than his firearm" part..

...some genius at Taser decided it'd be a good idea to make some models almost identical to small hand pistols like what most officers carry. It may very well be possible the officer involved DID mean to shoot his Taser and NOT his firearm, though this theory really hinges on what model Taser BART was supplied with. The family should sue for $50 million: $25 for BART, $25 for the company if it provided BART with pistol-shaped Tasers.

Taser-looking Tasers:


Hand gun-looking Taser:

[acmavm]

10. So, this fucking fool made a 'mistake'? Let's chalk it up to that then.

[DRoseDARs]

12. I suggest you check your attitude at the door.

eom

[acmavm]

13. I have a number of suggestions for you myself. One in particular concerns

your readiness to defend actions like this and what you can do with your phony concern.

[DRoseDARs]

14. So take ALL responsibility off of the manufacturer for setting this up to happen?

And ignore my calls for them to be sued if it turns out the taser's shape was a mitigating factor? And ignore the fact that there are different legal degrees to murder/homicide (my libertarian friend would agree with you: Murder is murder, no need for gradations like accidental or hate crime)? And ignore that cops are Human too and are just as capable of making honest and tragic mistakes as anyone? Especially when Taser makes a stun gun that looks and feels like a real gun? Especially in the heat of the moment when a cop is hyped up on adrenalin and their own sense of belligerent power?

Do you feel like shutting the Hell up now?

[14thColony]

17. Some people prefer to run on pure emotion and ad hominems.

Facts could lead to logical and unemotional reasoning, and we all know what a slippery slope that is.

[WriteDown]

20. So are you saying....

that even when it's not the taser, it's the taser???!??!

edited to get smilie working

[DRoseDARs]

24. No, that's not what I'm saying and you're being disingenuous for implying as such.

eom

[WriteDown]

29. Then what are you saying?

Please clarify.

[DRoseDARs]

30. I said it in the first post. Not my problem if you didn't understand it.

eom

[WriteDown]

32. You mean the post...

where you blamed the taser even though it wasn't the taser? Much more likely that this individual had no business being a police officer.

[DRoseDARs]

37. Are you telling us you have psychic abilities and have already seen the investigation?

Much more likely you're one of these people that "prefer to run on pure emotion and ad hominems" 14thColony mentioned earlier. I realize that it's tre chic to dogpile on cops at any and all opportunities, but sometimes all that does is make one look like an ass. Some of you refuse to leave open the possibility that, as I mentioned earlier, cops are Human and are just as capable of screwing up badly, not out of malice but out of being Human and fallible. Yes, it's possible he intended to shot the poor bastard, but it's just as possible that he intended to use a Taser. As I pointed out in the first post, some models of tasers appear very much like regular hand guns, just begging to be confused for the real thing and vis versa.

[WriteDown]

40. Me, anti-cop???

I come from a family of police officers, on both sides for goodness sake. I am just saying that I think the "I thought it was my taser" defense was a little incredulous.

[DRoseDARs]

41. Then take it w/a grain of salt. I'm just pointing out how the defense might play out.

As I indicated elsewhere, these handgun-shaped tasers are a horrible idea and are bound to be confused with the real thing at some point if not in this instance.

Edit to add: Remember the kids getting shot for drawing real-looking fake plastic guns? How long until someone pulls a handgun-shaped taser on a cop and gets shot, or a cop mistakenly pulls their real handgun instead of their handgun-shaped taser if this isn't the case here?

[Fumesucker]

42. Some of us have had very bad experiences with cops running out of control..

Not so much an excuse as an explanation.

After you have had something similar happen to yourself or a loved one it's far more difficult to give the benefit of the doubt to cops.

Until he passed away a few years ago I had a cop in my own family, he was a good guy but admitted to me on multiple occasions that there were a lot of "bad apples" in his department.

[DRoseDARs]

43. When I had my traffic accident in 2000, first cop on-scene was friendly and understanding...

The second cop? Not so much. To him my crime? Being a 19-year-old driver. I don't drink, don't do drugs, wasn't on medication, and didn't have a cellphone at the time (therefore wasn't trying to text message and drive at the same time), but boy was he surly with me. The first cop being there before him was a blessing.

[Fumesucker]

44. I've had similar experiences...

I've been treated very well by cops and also very badly.

Basically cops have way too much power in America these days, thanks mostly to horrible laws.

The bad cops make things much harder for the good ones and I still don't understand why the good ones so often cover for the bad ones.

[Baby Snooks]

49. Why?

"The bad cops make things much harder for the good ones and I still don't understand why the good ones so often cover for the bad ones."

Why? Because the good cops are afraid of the bad cops. That's why. The bad cops set up innocent civilians. And they would set up an innocent cop. They fear them. And hide the fear behind the "code of honor" which is not honorable at all.

This happens every day all around this country. Few incidents make it to the headlines. Because the cops are able to cover it up. And sometimes the good cops cover it up for the bad cops.

But it's not just good cops covering up for bad cops. It's the societal attitude. Particularly with regard to minorities. "Those people."

All of us can become one of "those people" and all it takes is an encounter with a bad cop. Or even a good cop just having a bad day.

[RCinBrooklyn]

63. True. I'd say the majority of cops are scum and the "good ones" are few & far between.

[ellisonz]

54. "just as capable of screwing up badly, not out of malice but out of being Human and fallible."

And the average citizen goes to prison nevertheless...

[acmavm]

56. Do I feel like shutting the hell up? No, I feel like bending over

so those big lips of yours can kiss my rosie pink ass.

Oh yeah, it's the taser company's fault. Not the stupid worthless fuck who shot someone lying on the ground. You're two of a kind.

[peacetalksforall]

35. Why do you enter this conversation with the attitude of dictating rather than dialouge?

Your attitude qualifies you for being an aide to Cheney.

[DRoseDARs]

39. "Your attitude qualifies you for being an aide to Cheney."

*sigh*

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[RamboLiberal]

65. I could see a cop having a brain fart and thinking

he was holding his taser and not his gun. And no it doesn't excuse the cop.

[Nevernose]

78. So it's 3rd degree murder rather than 1st degree murder?

Or maybe manslaughter? Is that the point? Because that's what I get from "the handles are similar -- it was an accident."

[ellisonz]

9. How is this not murder?

[Lordquinton]

11. Just what the ailing mass transit needs

a $25 million dollar lawsuit. I hate stories like this, because I feel so much empathy for the victim and family, but when a School, or transit system gets sued, that's coming gout of our pockets, and it's gonna effect the way we do our lives. Mauye just in the community, but it's going to have far more consequences. They need to sue the guy directly, he should go to jail for life, and BART needs to shape up their security, they've been needing that for years.

[exboyfil]

22. Would some sort of bonding procedure for police officers and other

state officials be a good idea? The only way $25M makes sense is to deter future actions of this type, but I am not sure that, in this case, it would have that effect. I would like to hear from law enforcement officers on the best way to handle chaotic situations like this? Was unholstering the gun even necessary? Would a $1M bonding address exposure for public entities? Is $1M enough compensation for a death? If the death had been from gross negligence by an engineer, would $25M also be justified?

From what I am seeing no way I am ever riding BART. The incident started with two groups fighting and the police trying to break it up.

For the police a very hard way to earn a paycheck. You further add the risk of imprisonment and/or the financial devastation of a judgment, I am not sure why any police officer would be one.

If it was my child killed by a police officer unjustly, then I would want my pound of flesh ($25 M seems too low to me). I would also want the police officer to rot in jail.

[izquierdista]

76. Cop jails

Since cops are so fond of punishments as a deterrent to bad behavior, society's greatest punishment should be reserved for cops who fuck up. They would have to agree with the logic, that avoiding a spectacularly bad punishment would make them even better "law enforcement officers".

I would suggest dropping such deserving cops, ones like George Gwaltney or Craig Peyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Highway_Patrol ) onto a deserted island in the Aleutians and letting them fend for themselves, without the benefit of the society that they betrayed.

[Sixty_cycle_humm]

27. $25 million?

Will the state have to issue an IOU like the tax refunds will be later this year?

Lawyers will start a riot when the family tears off 1/3 of the paper and hands it to them.

[AtheistCrusader]

36. The city has insurance.

Money would probably come out of that.

[Hissyspit]

15. The female police officer wants to confiscate the video.

Of course she does...



http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

[DRoseDARs]

16. She's free to get a copy off Youtube when it's posted. And posted. And posted. And posted.

[Joanne98]

18. LOL

[antimatter98]

19. Shocked. You mean the leftist Bay Area allows this? n/t

[natrat]

79. nah ...they recruit the police from the hick population in the central valley

[datasuspect]

23. they've been doing this to blacks, latinos, and poor whites for years and years

kinda strange they're doing it to hipster kids now.

[reggie the dog]

46. I am white and working class

the first time I had a cop pull a gun on me was when an undercover pulled his gun, pointed it at us, and made us all get on the ground. We were in a park, lit by stadium lights, after dark, so the park was closed. We were playing tag. We were 12 and 13 years old. I had never even smoked a joint yet. The harrassment never stopped in the USA. The cops treated me like an enemy since I was 13.

[Dead_Parrot]

34. Maybe he was Palestinian. nt

[reggie the dog]

48. no, he was a "nigger", the USA's version of Palestinians

[WriteDown]

50. Ridiculous comparison...

Native American would be better for your purposes, but I would still disagree.

[noiretextatique]

58. you are free to disagree...but there is a long history of the police

harassing and killing african-americans.

[reggie the dog]

45. this is exactly why I support the right to carry weapons for civilians

If people in California all had the right to have guns like they do in Texas then the other passengers could have opened up fire and had a proper shoot out with the cops. But cops prefer shooting unarmed people. There were only about ten cops so I imagine that a dozen armed citizens could have taken all of them out. And before you attack me I have had a cop hold a gun to my head and say that he should pull the trigger because people like me were ruining the USA, people like me being long haired pot smokers. Those fuckers would not do shit like this if they thought that any old citizen walking along could blast their ass in defence of another civilian. Sorry if you think I am violent but this is a WAR. yes A WAR, the war on drugs is a war against me and others like me.

[TryingToWarnYou]

80. I dont post often anymore, but...

I had to address your completely misinformed commentary. Im a cop in Texas where we have "armed citizens". Your fantasy of having a glorious shootout with the cops would never happen. Why? Mostly because you are fabricating the entire issue. You guys always like to talk tough until its the real deal and then its always Yes Sir and No Sir. Personally, I dont give a shiat about dope smokers...they are so far down on the list of who needs to be dealt with legally that its a joke. I would much rather see a real criminal behind bars than some guy with weed. Hell, legalize it if you want. I simply didnt care for your comment as it was and is, completely incorrect. Another thing you might try is not breaking the law so you dont have to deal with the cops. Its a pretty simple choice.

[reggie the dog]

47. Fuck the police comin straight out of Compton

fuck the police


Cop Killer


There is a reason why such songs are so popular.

[Thorandmjolnir]

51. maybe its just a poorly written piece,

but is one considered a veteran after 2 years of service?

"That officer, a 2-year veteran, has not been publicly identified and has been placed on routine administrative leave."

[slackmaster]

52. Oops

Looks like a training issue.

[RCinBrooklyn]

55. Over the last 8 years, police have been trained to be adversaries of citizens.

[baldguy]

57. A police officer executes a citizen, and we're supposed to remain calm?

[slackmaster]

61. I can't tell from that video that the shooting was intentional

It could be just a failure to observe the four rules of safe firearm handling; i.e. a fatal negligent discharge.

[RCinBrooklyn]

62. Tell that to the dead guy.

[slackmaster]

64. What would be the point in doing that?

Compassion is fine, but it's not the way to find out what really happened.

Murder requires a certain state of mind. If that state was not in the cop's mind, it wasn't murder.

[dana_b]

69. funny you should say that

I watched "60 Minutes" last night and a 24 year old guy is being charged with murder for driving drunk and killing two people. He was not in the mindframe of "I'm gonna go and take some people out!" but that's what he did. He was charged and received a sentence of 2nd degree murder.

The cop? Too early to tell but I can tell you that people around here are pissed. If the cop gets off, it could be a Rodney King type of situation.

[slackmaster]

71. Getting drunk and going driving takes a lot of time and effort

A drunk driver had lots to time to think about what he or she was doing, and plenty of opportunities to change course along the way. It's not necessarily the same kind of situation at all.

The cop? Too early to tell but I can tell you that people around here are pissed.

They are justifiably pissed regardless of what went was going on inside of that cop's head. Whether or not it was murder, it was unquestionably a bad shoot. The victim posed no threat to the cops or anyone else at that point. The videos make that abundantly clear.

At a minimum he should be fired, receive a felony conviction for a negligent killing, and never allowed to handle a firearm again.

[dana_b]

72. couldn't agree more n/t

[KamaAina]

59. That's my old station!!

really old -- '85-'86 -- but still:

And the area (now grandly called the "Fruitvale/San Antonio District") is hardly the most dangerous part of Oakland. Indeed, BART and the city have targeted it for transit-oriented development built around that very station.

[Starry Messenger]

66. I live 5 blocks away.

We heard the sirens that night. I had to ride the train for the first time today. The mood was very somber. I didn't see the memorial that was reported in the news. There were a lot of BART cops around today milling around the ticket machines. It felt very weird. This just makes me sick.

[Blue_Tires]

60. the shot happens at 3:03 of the video

still inconclusive due to all the herky-jerkiness of the young girl with the camera

[MiaCulpa]

67. San Francisco cop shoots apparently helpless man in the back

Source: Raw Story

Two videos showing a San Francisco transit officer fatally shooting an unarmed, cooperating 22-year-old man have surfaced, thanks to a vigilant teen and an anonymous cameraman.

According to officials, five Bay Area Rapid Transit officers arrived at a subway station around 2 a.m. in response to reports of fighting on a train. Officers handcuffed a group of suspects, and detained the soon-to-be victim, Oscar Grant III.

In both videos, though detained, Grant had clearly not been cuffed.

Mario Pangelina Jr., aunt to Grant's four-year-old daughter, witnessed the events leading up to the shooting.

Read more: http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Video_shows_police_shooti...

---

Full article and videos at the link...

-Diane

[BR_Parkway]

70. The 2nd video shows things even more clearly

http://www.ktvu.com/video/18409133/index.html

[Gen. Jack D. Ripper]

75. This video is MUCH clearer

That first video is worthless. Anyway, now that I've seen this I can see the police officer clearly shoot the man. That's just outrageous. He should be thrown in jail for the rest of his life.

[Gen. Jack D. Ripper]

73. I have absolutely no idea what happened in that video

I watched it a few times and all it did was make me sick. I couldn't see anything clearly.

[NoodleyAppendage]

77. Throw that cop in the general prison population and let "justice" happen naturally.

That was an execution, pure and simple.

$50 million would have been a better figure.

FUCK THE POLICE.