9 Muslim Passengers Removed From Jet

Source: Washington Post

9 Muslim Passengers Removed From Jet
Others on Flight Say a Remark Was 'Suspicious'

Officials ordered nine Muslim passengers, including three young children, off an AirTran flight headed to Orlando from Reagan National Airport yesterday afternoon after two other passengers overheard what they thought was a suspicious remark.

Members of the party, all but one of them U.S.-born citizens who were headed to a religious retreat in Florida, were subsequently cleared for travel by FBI agents who characterized the incident as a misunderstanding, an airport official said. But the passengers said AirTran refused to rebook them, and they had to pay for seats on another carrier secured with help from the FBI.

Kashif Irfan, one of the removed passengers, said the incident began about 1 p.m. after his brother, Atif, and his brother's wife wondered aloud about the safest place to sit on an airplane.

"My brother and his wife were discussing some aspect of airport security," Irfan said. "The only thing my brother said was, 'Wow, the jets are right next to my window.' I think they were remarking about safety."

Irfan said he and the others think they were profiled because of their appearance. He said five of the six adults in the party are of South Asian descent, and all six are traditionally Muslim in appearance, with the men wearing beards and the women in headscarves. Irfan, 34, is an anesthesiologist. His brother, 29, is a lawyer. Both live in Alexandria with their families, and both were born in Detroit. They were traveling with their wives, Kashif Irfan's sister-in-law, a friend and Kashif Irfan's three sons, ages 7, 4 and 2.

Read more: .http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

Sounds about right.

Racist and xenophobic is what came to my mind.

of this decision making by the crew. I'm glad to know we have these people.

Perhaps you don't fly too much. Those of us who do are glad for the airlines and TSA to err on the side of caution.

I fly enough to see how differently air crews behave towards people who look Middleeastern or South Asian.

Anything they say is immediately interpreted in that context.

This does not make us safer, quite the contrary.

I personally hope they remove anyone talking about the plane blowing up.

David

Google and watch BBC's "The Power of Nightmares."

Then come back and tell us what you think.

Happened at his airport.

Disgusting.

I think the family has solid legal cases, against the airline and against the accusor.

Then we can all pay higher ticket prices.

But then, some people are incapable of thinking any farther than their wallet.

But I am against the reality that being offended in this country makes you an instant millionaire.

I said nothing about "suing to become a millionaire," did I? If the family does not file suit against the airline, what course of action would you recommend to punish this injustice? Shake a finger at the airline and say, "Naughty! Naughty!" perhaps?

but I do believe that a multi-million dollar lawsuit will be the case and it saddens me that that is the state of affairs, that in today's America, anytime anyone is offended, they can become an instant millionaire and we all pay higher prices and get lower services because of it.

And did not have their fundamental civil rights violated?

I'm trying to figure out your perspective on this.

I get what you're saying to some extent, but it's not as if someone simply made a snide remark to them. They were thrown off the plane and not allowed to rebook their flight for no reason at all. I think that crosses over the line of simply being 'offended'.


If someone threw me off my flight and refused to allow me to rebook it because I was too pasty white, then I'm pretty damn sure I would be more than just offended...

Currently you can be thrown off a plane if:

- Your skirt is too short.
- You're breastfeeding your baby.
- You're orthodox Jewish and insist on praying.
- You're wearing a "Meet the Fockers" t-shirt with visuals of Condi, Cheney, et al.
- You're a princess and your religion forbids you from sitting next to a strange man.
- Your baby is unruly, or keeps vocalizing "bye bye plane"


http://www.worldhum.com/features/lists/nine_ways_to_get...

Good lord. How about holding airlines responsible for following the law, not violating civil rights, and having repercussions is they don't? Making airlines follow the law gives us lower services?

You miss a lot here.

It's sort of the Milo Minderbinder logic that we're all "shareholders in the syndicate" to neglect justice just because the cost might somehow be borne in part by the public at large.

I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption that a million dollar lawsuit is where this kind of thing generally heads.If you want to punish the airlines to deter similar future behavior, at least give the money to charity or something.

ed for sp

words out loud such as, "bomb," "explosives," "hijack," "terrorism," "plane crash," and any other words and sentences that have to do with safety at airports and on airplanes.

It's that simple.

All you're doing is asking for trouble.

You have to be living on Neptune to think you're not going to run into a conflict using words associated with safety.

by confirming that any of those words were used in this instance.

anyone who decides to openly talk about airline safety at an airport or on an airplane can probably expect a visit from someone with TSA or airport police.

These people should have known better. Period.

I have been on lots of planes, including those I jumped out of as a paratrooper in the U.S. Army. I flew as a helicopter crew chief in the 82nd, my father flew in the Pacific Theater in WW II and step father flew for Pan American. My Mom got her pilot license at age 16.

I have heard lots and lots of comments about the safest part of the plane to be in, how to react and what to do in emergencies, and all this while boarding, flying, and every possible part of thee time span of leaving to go fly to getting home after flying.

No, you are wrong and an apologist here for fascist and bigoted minded people. You may not be one in most ways yourself, but this is precisely what you are doing here.

speech rights are more important than the logical position of not talking about safety and crashes and other things that might worry an already nervous flier.

I'll be sure to tell my dad, the United Airlines B777 captain, and Democrat, that he's a facist/bigot for not particularly appreciating people talking about scary shit on his plane.

What's the purpose of that? Bringing up talk about crashing?

I've never once gotten into a discussion about flying safety while airborne, because I have the good sense to not want to worry people sitting around me.

But you go ahead and talk about what you want. Just be prepared to be hassled.

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And thank you!!! Well Said!

Did the people issuing the warning overreact? More than likely. Still, the law compels the airline to take these things seriously.

didn't have the same thing happen to them. Doesn't make it right, does make it REALITY. Common sense people.

ed for punctuation

the family was talking about .. not the family version.

I just find it hard to believe simply talking about seeing the engines from their seat would trigger such an uproar.

...are you a bunch of LIBERALS who support the 1st Amendment to the Constitution?

How dare anybody, much less a bunch of suspicious lookin' muslins with funny beards and clothes and stuff, say anything on an airplane (or in a terminal)? Everybody oughta just keep their stinkin' pieholes shut! No talking, silencio! Ya got that?!

No offense, cboy4, but I get extremely dismayed when I read these kind of quivering cowardly comments coming from people on a "progressive" web site.

How much longer are we, as the Citizens of this Nation, going to take this fascistic "airport security" police state bullshit before we say (to quote Obama) "ENOUGH"?!

The TSA is a complete joke, the "security" derived from forcing everybody to remove their shoes, carry tiny bottles of shampoo, and just generally be treated as if everyone is a "terrorist" is absolute insanity.

I have an 86 year old aunt (who is, for the record, a Christian and a "caucasion"), about 5 feet tell, 100 pounds, who had hip replacement surgery, and due to that, set off the alarm at the airport "security" metal detector. The TSA goon pulled her out of line and said they were going to strip search her, to which she replied, "keep your fuckin hands offa me, you asshole!" (She may be old and petite, but she's always been very outspoken.) She was allowed to board the plane without being strip searched.

I absolutely refuse to fly anywhere until the bullshit stops. FUCK the fascist police state that this Nation has devolved into!!

should I request they be removed from my next flight?

or should I never suspect them? they are in uniform after all and never wear headscarves or beards....

What a lazy waste of space you took up with that "reponse."

...I don't know how I'd be able to control myself from blurting out terrorist-like sentiments next time I'm in the cattle chute at the local police state operated airline terminal or while on a plane, if it weren't for your timely tips on how to maintain a low profile as my rights are being violated by TSA goons under the premise of "there's a terrorist behind every bush."

(Actually, I would go with "there's a Bush behind every terrorist," but that's just the commie-leftist in me coming out.)

BTW what is "a lazy waste of space," I've never seen that phrase before.

That's OK, no need to answer, you'll probably just say something stupid and offensive again, without really meaning to.

Bye, cboy. Have a nice life, just try not to let the FEAR overwhelm you too much.

where you're acting out ... you got the Zappa avatar .. I'm certain freshwidow does whatever freshwidow wants to do in order to act a little radical.

I, on the other hand, behave when I get on an airplane because I know the flight crew has its hands fulls dealing wiht just a shocking number of a-holes who feel a purchased ticket is entitlement to acting out.

Power to the people freshwidow!!

lol

Apparently, the "suspicious" phrase was "Wow, the jets are right next to my window." I seriously doubt that similar suspicions would have been raised if this family had not been 1) Arab in appearance; 2) a group of seven or eight people. So what does that leave us with? People of Arab descent are no longer allowed to travel as families in the US? They're not allowed to make routine comments about seating arrangements?

It's paranoia, in my opinion and experience. I flew from Agno to Geneva a couple of weeks ago and made a very similar remark to my traveling companion: "Davide, you sit next to the window. I don't wanna have a front-row view if we crash in the Alps." Nobody batted an eye.

watch what I say on an airplane.

I mean let's be honest.

And authorities are not saying they only mentioned the jets are near the window .. that's a quote from the family.

I suspect a little bit more was said.

It's not fair that Arab-Americans have to watch what they say, but it's the way it is thanks to 9/11.

I'm simply pointing out reality.

The authorities are well known for stretching the truth from time to time, so anything they say has to be taken with a grain of salt.

Besides, the comment was overheard by another passenger, not the TSA, which makes this hearsay. Now maybe someone can find that security minded passenger and do a story on him/her?

"The group said the incident began when another passenger complained about something that was said while boarding."

I like your statement here:

It's not fair that Arab-Americans have to watch what they say, but it's the way it is thanks to 9/11.

I guess some Germans felt the same way regarding the Jews, or whites felt the same way regarding Blacks? Just keep your mouths shut and everything will be just fine!!!

along with African Americans along with ALL groups should keep their mouths shut about anything that has to do with air travel safety once on a plane.

I mean what's so hard to understand?

You're comparing apples and oranges with your German-Jew/whites-blacks analogy.

I'm guessing if a Gay Guy doesn't want to be profiled, he shouldn't mention Barbara Streisand?

Attention Gay and Lesbian people---if you don't want to be identified in public by bigots or Homophobes---make no mention of Broadway!

You see nothing wrong with running your mouth on an airplane about safety in this day and age of flying.

And then you use a Steisand analogy about profiling.

I don't even know where to begin shoveling through all of that horse shit.

The comment was so damn bland that it should have never caught the ear of someone sitting near by....The only reason it did is because is because the guy has brown skin.

The guy was profiled--------Period.

Do you CBoy---as a Gay Man---like to be profiled?

Your reasoning with this is if you have Brown Skin----then you better keep your mouth shut in an airport.

be on a goddam airplane talking about anything that can be misinterpreted as a danger.

I don't understand this aggressive position that passengers should be allowed to say whatever the fuck you want on an airplane, and not allow the airline to make the call on whether you're a disruption or not.

My position is everyone should keep their mouth shut in and airport and on a plane .. I don't care what your ethnicity is or what your sexual orientation is.

It's not difficult, unless perhaps one is an asshole.

If I find out if I'm sitting right next to the engines, I shouldn't say out loud to my companion--- "'Wow, the jets are right next to my window.'"....

I can't say that? Is that what you are saying....??

Or are you saying that if I had Brown Skin I shouldn't say that?

Because if that's your position--- then you are a moran.

someone else to explain my position, which I've repeated numerous times in this long thread.

Dude---you're getting your ass kicked in this thread and you keep on digging.....

It's a cop out answer in your mind, because I have you pinned in a corner like usual.

You've cornered all the radical leftists..... and now what---- you gonna report us to the TSA?

It would provide a much safer flight.

The person was just commenting on the anatomy of the plane as seen from where he was sitting.

By your interpretation (and apparently by the interpretation of the reporting passenger) anyone who looks muslim and has brown skin should say nothing at all because it could be misinterpreted by paranoids in the same general area.

What you are saying is that American citizens don't all have the same rights. That the level of rights are determined by religion and skin tone.

There is nothing in this article that states anyone in this family said anything near infammatory or threatening.

The FBI apparently agrees that THEY were victims of a "misunderstanding" and not bandying around words like "hijack" "bombs" "plane crash" etc. ad nauseum.

Poor case to prove your point.

Now you are backpedaling but it's right there in post #9. YOU said it.

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This is ridiculous posting by someone who would be apeshit if it were somehow related to their sexual orientation.

off the plane simply because they're gay versus saying something that frightens passengers.

I am in favor of the airlines, ejecting anyone, including gay people, who is considered a threat to peace and safety on board an airplane.

Sorry to destroy your argument.

"Listen, if I were Arab-Armerican, I would know better to watch what I say on an airplane. I mean let's be honest."

Indeed, let us be honest. You think that arab-americans have less rights than you. In your posts you have put words in their mouths they didn't say, insisted that the printed reports, and it seems the FBI must have gotten in wrong, and simply believe that it is just fine for muslims to be tossed off planes for no good reason at all if some bigot decides that "Wow, the jets are right next to my window" constitutes a terrorist threat.

And you are being stupid about the parallels to your own human rights struggle here. Clue up cowboy.

like yourself.

I already shot down one of your arguments, and now you're accusing me of thinking Arab-Americans have less rights than I do.

WRONG.

Get back to me when you want to be honest.

You've done your ownself in here. Calling people liars ain't helping you at all.

So far, it looks like you are just digging yourself in deeper.

and pose such a threat to peace and safety.

especially if they're Arab-American, they should know better after all. Your words are your undoing.

In this day and age, some idiots are afraid of EVERYTHING. So we have to now watch what we say because it might "set them off"? Things like "Wow, the jets are next to my window"?

And people of certain colors should especially refrain from saying them right? But then, I am sure that the clothes they were wearing might have scared some people, so they should be forced into appropriate attire as well, right? And the color of their skin itself undoubtedly scared someone, so they should simply be refused the right to fly, right?

When we start choosing our actions based on an assumed reaction from some idiot, freedom is out the window.

You speak of this very pragmatically - "this is just how the world is" - but the world is what we make it. You have just bought in to a ridiculous attitude and choose to defend it by claiming that is just the breaks. But so many struggles in our nation have been based on changing the reality - not just accepting it and excusing it because it is fact.

I agree that it might be annoying to you that people throw the gay rights thing in your face, but consider this: Gays simply cannot get married in the US. That is simply how it is, and gays should be aware of that and be extra cautious in their daily lives so that they do not scare any homophobes. Does that sound acceptable to you? It is almost exactly what you are telling Arab Americans to accept. And it is absolutely ridiculous.

accept .. your gay analogy is way off.

Again, my point is ALL passengers should watch what they say on an airplane when it comes to comments that might be construed the wrong way.

That's why if you even mention the word "bomb," or "hijacking" in an airport terminal, and an undercover agent hear you (and there are plenty of them walking around), you will be escorted for questioning, whether your comments were strictly innocent, and whether you are Black, Arab, Asian, Caucasian, Latino, gay, straight or whatever.

I'm not arguing that Arab-Americans deserve to be treated differently.

I'm arguing that everyone has to use their common sense in this post 9/11 world we live in.

I didn't make it this way .. I'm only pointing out reality,

Since that's the subject. Are jets now a forbidden topic too, for everyone?

upset passengers and could lead to potential panic.

The captain has a wide range of authority to throw your ass off of his plane if you so much as begin to act up.

Try it sometime.

And then see who wins once you complain.

"anything that may potentially frighten some mouthbreather" - because that seems like the "logic" you are applying here.

I can totally imagine just about anyone (especially a new flyer) mentioning that they are sitting by the jet engines, just as an observation. How in the world should someone know that is a "taboo" subject? And why do you keep mentioning saying things like "bomb", etc. and then when it is pointed out that that is NOT The case here (at least according to all available evidence), you shrug that off and simply say, "Well, anything that may scare someone".

I would never imagine that mentioning the proximity of the plane's engines to my seat could in any way be construed as threatening, so who decides this criteria?

Also to note: Many times now you have said that "Arab Americans" should be extra careful, now you are trying to backpedal on that by saying "anyone" - which is it?

say, so don't go down the same road of dishonesty as your hard left friends and insinuate I all of a sudden just brought up other ethnicity's.

No, there is not a written list of things you cannot say.

But there is an unwritten list of conversation that people of even average IQ's should understand to avoid. You know, aka, common sense.

You are going in circles.

And yes, you said that all races should be very careful - and then specifically said that Arab Americans should be extra careful.

BTW I am not going the same way as anyone, and I post alone here, no "friends" on this site. I also personally judge each situation on its own merit and do not rely on oversimplified labels like "hard left" to decide for me what I will and will not support. I could really care less how you or anyone else views my opinions, or how you want to label them so they can fit into a mind that cares about whether something is viewed as "hard left" or anything else.

This issue, in my personal opinion (and not because it is "hard left"), based on the information I have, stinks to high heaven and really bothers me. I would like to discuss the situation on its own merits, not argue against labels that you yourself impose.

The situation as we know it is simple: A guy on a plane said "Wow, I am right next to the jets". Is this something that you think should warrant someone and his entire family being removed from a plane? Not generalizations of "people need to be careful", but this very situation. Can you give a straight answer on that one?

mundane as something about wow, I am right next to the jets.

I believe there were extrapolating comments.

One would have to be bat shit crazy to go through all the trouble of complaining and causing a flight delay, forcing themselves to be interviewed by cops, the airlines, etc., all because of a comment about seeing the engines out the window.

Sorry, but that doesn't sound logical to me.

...and that others are just liars? That is one area where we fundamentally agree, then.

There is no evidence at all for what you say, yet you have made up your mind. And then you claim others are closed minded for NOT making the same unwarranted assumption that you have made.

You are no friend to logic.

Also, the comments about "Arab Americans" by you are clearly documented in this thread, yet you continue to backpedal. I disagree also that race should come into play when people must watch what they say.

You are just going in circles now.

were as mundane as have been reported.

And I didn't say others are close minded. I said they are extreme leftists.

Hopefully nobody in this thread is a professional journalist.

I've been nothing but misquoted about everything.

I'm not the one going in circles. That's for sure.

You are a hardcore fascist if you do not.

I knew I could get you to lose your composure.

Weak.

but to annoy people. Why? Are you fed up with working with Democrats, so now you've decided to take a far right position on a matter of civil rights, to see who you can piss off on a Democratic board? Calling civil rights a 'hard left' position is a far right position. You seem to be using it repeatedly to get a reaction out of people who are quite moderate, but have a basic belief in the rights of these Americans.

I've noticed that for many posters, DU is not a so much a place of open dialog and entertaining conjectures, but simply a forum to illustrate how clever we can sometimes be.

Focusing on "winning" an argument rather than actually being correct. It seems to me that the loudest, the most annoying, and the most ineffectual posters tend to fall into this particular category...

The point is that just because you believe something that has no proof (i.e. that they said something more than mentioning the jets, or the Tooth Fairy), that does not make it true. You take that even further by labeling people that do not believe in your imagined scenario as "far left".

I have just done the same thing to you - stating my imagined scenario (that the Tooth Fairy is real) and then putting a label on everyone that does not believe in whatever I made up in my head (fascist).

So why when you play the imagination and labeling game do you call it logic, and when others do it it is a "personal attack"?

I am completely composed, despite your juvenile goal to "get me to lose my composure". I was trying to make a point which was totally lost on you - but then I am beginning to understand that I need to spell things out for you that others would simply understand.

But what they said didn't really sound scary. So they must have actually said something scarier, otherwise they wouldn't have been taken off the plane. And since they were taken off the plane, it must be that what they said justified that, since otherwise they wouldn't have been taken off the plane. Got it.

This really is the "Catch-22" thread.