9 Muslim Passengers Removed From Jet

[Tab]

Source: Washington Post

9 Muslim Passengers Removed From Jet
Others on Flight Say a Remark Was 'Suspicious'

Officials ordered nine Muslim passengers, including three young children, off an AirTran flight headed to Orlando from Reagan National Airport yesterday afternoon after two other passengers overheard what they thought was a suspicious remark.

Members of the party, all but one of them U.S.-born citizens who were headed to a religious retreat in Florida, were subsequently cleared for travel by FBI agents who characterized the incident as a misunderstanding, an airport official said. But the passengers said AirTran refused to rebook them, and they had to pay for seats on another carrier secured with help from the FBI.

Kashif Irfan, one of the removed passengers, said the incident began about 1 p.m. after his brother, Atif, and his brother's wife wondered aloud about the safest place to sit on an airplane.

"My brother and his wife were discussing some aspect of airport security," Irfan said. "The only thing my brother said was, 'Wow, the jets are right next to my window.' I think they were remarking about safety."

Irfan said he and the others think they were profiled because of their appearance. He said five of the six adults in the party are of South Asian descent, and all six are traditionally Muslim in appearance, with the men wearing beards and the women in headscarves. Irfan, 34, is an anesthesiologist. His brother, 29, is a lawyer. Both live in Alexandria with their families, and both were born in Detroit. They were traveling with their wives, Kashif Irfan's sister-in-law, a friend and Kashif Irfan's three sons, ages 7, 4 and 2.

Read more: .http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/01/AR2009010101932.html?hpid=topnews

[dipsydoodle]

1. It was paranoid people. It was very sad

Sounds about right.

[Xipe Totec]

72. Paranoid is the kindest way to characterize it

Racist and xenophobic is what came to my mind.

[cwydro]

172. Yeah, well two air marshals on board were part

of this decision making by the crew. I'm glad to know we have these people.

Perhaps you don't fly too much. Those of us who do are glad for the airlines and TSA to err on the side of caution.

[Xipe Totec]

207. That's laughable

I fly enough to see how differently air crews behave towards people who look Middleeastern or South Asian.

Anything they say is immediately interpreted in that context.

This does not make us safer, quite the contrary.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

266. It makes us less safe?

I personally hope they remove anyone talking about the plane blowing up.

David

[Towlie]

233. Err on the side of caution? You mean err on the side of stupidity, don't you?

[Madison knows]

77. I wonder what made them so paranoid?

[The Stranger]

89. Probably Fox News and CNN running 24/7 "terrorism" fear.

Google and watch BBC's "The Power of Nightmares."

Then come back and tell us what you think.

[Madison knows]

91. I think that some people overreact. And some always will.

[louis-t]

223. Naw, just channeling Reagan.

Happened at his airport.

[Window]

2. That's a damned shame. I can't believe the airline wouldn't rebook them.

Disgusting.

:thumbsdown:

[TechBear_Seattle]

63. Is it illegal discrimination if the airline refuses to rebook?

I think the family has solid legal cases, against the airline and against the accusor.

[newtothegame]

82. Sweet, good idea...

Then we can all pay higher ticket prices.

[TechBear_Seattle]

120. I think that allowing this kind of bigotry to stand would cost far, far more.

But then, some people are incapable of thinking any farther than their wallet.

[newtothegame]

125. I'm not speaking against justice...

But I am against the reality that being offended in this country makes you an instant millionaire.

[TechBear_Seattle]

131. Then what legal recourse do you propose?

I said nothing about "suing to become a millionaire," did I? If the family does not file suit against the airline, what course of action would you recommend to punish this injustice? Shake a finger at the airline and say, "Naughty! Naughty!" perhaps?

[newtothegame]

137. No you didn't, and I apologize for my initial sarcastic response...

but I do believe that a multi-million dollar lawsuit will be the case and it saddens me that that is the state of affairs, that in today's America, anytime anyone is offended, they can become an instant millionaire and we all pay higher prices and get lower services because of it.

[TechBear_Seattle]

140. So this is a case where the family was merely "offended"

And did not have their fundamental civil rights violated?

I'm trying to figure out your perspective on this.

[Regret My New Name]

141. Were they only offended though?

I get what you're saying to some extent, but it's not as if someone simply made a snide remark to them. They were thrown off the plane and not allowed to rebook their flight for no reason at all. I think that crosses over the line of simply being 'offended'.


If someone threw me off my flight and refused to allow me to rebook it because I was too pasty white, then I'm pretty damn sure I would be more than just offended...

[Gwendolyn]

160. There won't be a lawsuit. If the family tries, they'll get nowhere.

Currently you can be thrown off a plane if:

- Your skirt is too short.
- You're breastfeeding your baby.
- You're orthodox Jewish and insist on praying.
- You're wearing a "Meet the Fockers" t-shirt with visuals of Condi, Cheney, et al.
- You're a princess and your religion forbids you from sitting next to a strange man.
- Your baby is unruly, or keeps vocalizing "bye bye plane"


http://www.worldhum.com/features/lists/nine_ways_to_get_thrown_off_an_airplane_20070919/

[uppityperson]

168. This family was only "offended" and are becoming instant millionaires?

Good lord. How about holding airlines responsible for following the law, not violating civil rights, and having repercussions is they don't? Making airlines follow the law gives us lower services?

You miss a lot here.

[bad_robbie]

139. Even if justice costs more, I'd like to see it

It's sort of the Milo Minderbinder logic that we're all "shareholders in the syndicate" to neglect justice just because the cost might somehow be borne in part by the public at large.

[FiveGoodMen]

176. Yeah, justice isn't worth paying for!

[newtothegame]

202. Somone getting millions of dollars because someone else was an asshole to them isn't justice.

I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption that a million dollar lawsuit is where this kind of thing generally heads.If you want to punish the airlines to deter similar future behavior, at least give the money to charity or something.

ed for sp

[FiveGoodMen]

208. No. But deterring future injustices by punishing the current offender is.

[Glimmer of Hope]

3. "Wow, the jets are right next to my window." How scary.

[stlsaxman]

25. "Wow, the engine of this carriage is right in front of me". How 19th Century.

[cboy4]

4. Earth to people of all ethnic backgrounds: You DON'T use

words out loud such as, "bomb," "explosives," "hijack," "terrorism," "plane crash," and any other words and sentences that have to do with safety at airports and on airplanes.

It's that simple.

All you're doing is asking for trouble.

You have to be living on Neptune to think you're not going to run into a conflict using words associated with safety.

[dipsydoodle]

5. Do please enlighten all of us

by confirming that any of those words were used in this instance.

[cboy4]

7. I'm not saying those words were used. I'm making a point that

anyone who decides to openly talk about airline safety at an airport or on an airplane can probably expect a visit from someone with TSA or airport police.

These people should have known better. Period.

[Ferret Annica]

16. Sounds like free speech to me.

I have been on lots of planes, including those I jumped out of as a paratrooper in the U.S. Army. I flew as a helicopter crew chief in the 82nd, my father flew in the Pacific Theater in WW II and step father flew for Pan American. My Mom got her pilot license at age 16.

I have heard lots and lots of comments about the safest part of the plane to be in, how to react and what to do in emergencies, and all this while boarding, flying, and every possible part of thee time span of leaving to go fly to getting home after flying.

No, you are wrong and an apologist here for fascist and bigoted minded people. You may not be one in most ways yourself, but this is precisely what you are doing here.

[cboy4]

20. Yea, well then plan on being hassled if you think your free

speech rights are more important than the logical position of not talking about safety and crashes and other things that might worry an already nervous flier.

I'll be sure to tell my dad, the United Airlines B777 captain, and Democrat, that he's a facist/bigot for not particularly appreciating people talking about scary shit on his plane.

What's the purpose of that? Bringing up talk about crashing?

I've never once gotten into a discussion about flying safety while airborne, because I have the good sense to not want to worry people sitting around me.

But you go ahead and talk about what you want. Just be prepared to be hassled.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IdaBriggs]

43. Applause!!!

And thank you!!! Well Said!

:thumbsup: :yourock:

[Madison knows]

80. That argument was debunked long ago with the "fire in a theater" axiom.

Did the people issuing the warning overreact? More than likely. Still, the law compels the airline to take these things seriously.

[newtothegame]

85. Nope, you're wrong, and you're lucky those people making all those comments...

didn't have the same thing happen to them. Doesn't make it right, does make it REALITY. Common sense people.

ed for punctuation

[ExPatLeftist]

17. And how does that apply to, "Wow, the jets are right next to my window."? n/t

[cboy4]

21. I don't believe that's all that was said. n/t

[ExPatLeftist]

40. Why? n/t

[cboy4]

46. I'd like to hear something from the authorities about what

the family was talking about .. not the family version.

I just find it hard to believe simply talking about seeing the engines from their seat would trigger such an uproar.

[Warren Stupidity]

64. In another post you refuse to accept the TSA and FBI versions

[Posteritatis]

115. Moving goalposts is great, isn't it? (nt)

[babylonsister]

127. "These people"? You mean, U.S. citizens? nt

[GReedDiamond]

178. Yeah, what's the matter with all of you...

...are you a bunch of LIBERALS who support the 1st Amendment to the Constitution?

How dare anybody, much less a bunch of suspicious lookin' muslins with funny beards and clothes and stuff, say anything on an airplane (or in a terminal)? Everybody oughta just keep their stinkin' pieholes shut! No talking, silencio! Ya got that?!

No offense, cboy4, but I get extremely dismayed when I read these kind of quivering cowardly comments coming from people on a "progressive" web site.

How much longer are we, as the Citizens of this Nation, going to take this fascistic "airport security" police state bullshit before we say (to quote Obama) "ENOUGH"?!

The TSA is a complete joke, the "security" derived from forcing everybody to remove their shoes, carry tiny bottles of shampoo, and just generally be treated as if everyone is a "terrorist" is absolute insanity.

I have an 86 year old aunt (who is, for the record, a Christian and a "caucasion"), about 5 feet tell, 100 pounds, who had hip replacement surgery, and due to that, set off the alarm at the airport "security" metal detector. The TSA goon pulled her out of line and said they were going to strip search her, to which she replied, "keep your fuckin hands offa me, you asshole!" (She may be old and petite, but she's always been very outspoken.) She was allowed to board the plane without being strip searched.

I absolutely refuse to fly anywhere until the bullshit stops. FUCK the fascist police state that this Nation has devolved into!!

[pokercat999]

259. I only fly where I can't drive in 18 hours or less....nt

[mikelgb]

205. The flight attendats always dwell on safety

should I request they be removed from my next flight?

or should I never suspect them? they are in uniform after all and never wear headscarves or beards....

[cboy4]

248. You're a genius.

:eyes:

What a lazy waste of space you took up with that "reponse."

[GReedDiamond]

264. Whatever you say...

...I don't know how I'd be able to control myself from blurting out terrorist-like sentiments next time I'm in the cattle chute at the local police state operated airline terminal or while on a plane, if it weren't for your timely tips on how to maintain a low profile as my rights are being violated by TSA goons under the premise of "there's a terrorist behind every bush."

(Actually, I would go with "there's a Bush behind every terrorist," but that's just the commie-leftist in me coming out.)

BTW what is "a lazy waste of space," I've never seen that phrase before.

That's OK, no need to answer, you'll probably just say something stupid and offensive again, without really meaning to.

Bye, cboy. Have a nice life, just try not to let the FEAR overwhelm you too much.

[cboy4]

268. Again not afraid. You sound like you're still in that stage of life

where you're acting out ... you got the Zappa avatar .. I'm certain freshwidow does whatever freshwidow wants to do in order to act a little radical.

I, on the other hand, behave when I get on an airplane because I know the flight crew has its hands fulls dealing wiht just a shocking number of a-holes who feel a purchased ticket is entitlement to acting out.

Power to the people freshwidow!!

lol

[Heidi]

6. The FBI cleared them for travel and secured them seats on another flight.

Apparently, the "suspicious" phrase was "Wow, the jets are right next to my window." I seriously doubt that similar suspicions would have been raised if this family had not been 1) Arab in appearance; 2) a group of seven or eight people. So what does that leave us with? People of Arab descent are no longer allowed to travel as families in the US? They're not allowed to make routine comments about seating arrangements?

It's paranoia, in my opinion and experience. I flew from Agno to Geneva a couple of weeks ago and made a very similar remark to my traveling companion: "Davide, you sit next to the window. I don't wanna have a front-row view if we crash in the Alps." Nobody batted an eye.

[cboy4]

9. Listen, if I were Arab-Armerican, I would know better to

watch what I say on an airplane.

I mean let's be honest.

And authorities are not saying they only mentioned the jets are near the window .. that's a quote from the family.

I suspect a little bit more was said.

It's not fair that Arab-Americans have to watch what they say, but it's the way it is thanks to 9/11.

I'm simply pointing out reality.

[atreides1]

11. The Authorities didn't hear anything

The authorities are well known for stretching the truth from time to time, so anything they say has to be taken with a grain of salt.

Besides, the comment was overheard by another passenger, not the TSA, which makes this hearsay. Now maybe someone can find that security minded passenger and do a story on him/her?

"The group said the incident began when another passenger complained about something that was said while boarding."

I like your statement here:

It's not fair that Arab-Americans have to watch what they say, but it's the way it is thanks to 9/11.

I guess some Germans felt the same way regarding the Jews, or whites felt the same way regarding Blacks? Just keep your mouths shut and everything will be just fine!!!

[cboy4]

12. Arab-Americans along with white Europeans along with Asians

along with African Americans along with ALL groups should keep their mouths shut about anything that has to do with air travel safety once on a plane.

I mean what's so hard to understand?

You're comparing apples and oranges with your German-Jew/whites-blacks analogy.

[trumad]

24. Dude---these posts are dumber than your Barry Bond's posts...

I'm guessing if a Gay Guy doesn't want to be profiled, he shouldn't mention Barbara Streisand?

Attention Gay and Lesbian people---if you don't want to be identified in public by bigots or Homophobes---make no mention of Broadway!

[cboy4]

26. You can't be serious.

You see nothing wrong with running your mouth on an airplane about safety in this day and age of flying.

And then you use a Steisand analogy about profiling.

I don't even know where to begin shoveling through all of that horse shit.

[trumad]

29. I guarantee if I said the same thing on an airlplane---nothing would have came of it...

The comment was so damn bland that it should have never caught the ear of someone sitting near by....The only reason it did is because is because the guy has brown skin.

The guy was profiled--------Period.

Do you CBoy---as a Gay Man---like to be profiled?

Your reasoning with this is if you have Brown Skin----then you better keep your mouth shut in an airport.

[cboy4]

34. Well something should come of it because nobody should

be on a goddam airplane talking about anything that can be misinterpreted as a danger.

I don't understand this aggressive position that passengers should be allowed to say whatever the fuck you want on an airplane, and not allow the airline to make the call on whether you're a disruption or not.

My position is everyone should keep their mouth shut in and airport and on a plane .. I don't care what your ethnicity is or what your sexual orientation is.

It's not difficult, unless perhaps one is an asshole.

[trumad]

56. So your postion is---

If I find out if I'm sitting right next to the engines, I shouldn't say out loud to my companion--- "'Wow, the jets are right next to my window.'"....

I can't say that? Is that what you are saying....??

Or are you saying that if I had Brown Skin I shouldn't say that?

Because if that's your position--- then you are a moran.

[cboy4]

60. I can't hold your hand forever trumad. If you don't get it , ask

someone else to explain my position, which I've repeated numerous times in this long thread.

[trumad]

65. Typical cop out answer from you ....

Dude---you're getting your ass kicked in this thread and you keep on digging.....

[cboy4]

74. Your analytical skills leave a lot to be desired trumad.

It's a cop out answer in your mind, because I have you pinned in a corner like usual.

[trumad]

84. Yeah---you have me and the fifty others in this thread pinned to a corner...

You've cornered all the radical leftists..... and now what---- you gonna report us to the TSA?

[TommyO]

67. Why don't we just gag and handcuff people when they board a plane

It would provide a much safer flight.

[cboy4]

73. I would like that. Especially the screaming babies.

:thumbsup:

[1monster]

118. "Wow, the jets are right next to my window." Yeah, real terrorist sounding!

The person was just commenting on the anatomy of the plane as seen from where he was sitting.

By your interpretation (and apparently by the interpretation of the reporting passenger) anyone who looks muslim and has brown skin should say nothing at all because it could be misinterpreted by paranoids in the same general area.

What you are saying is that American citizens don't all have the same rights. That the level of rights are determined by religion and skin tone.

There is nothing in this article that states anyone in this family said anything near infammatory or threatening.

The FBI apparently agrees that THEY were victims of a "misunderstanding" and not bandying around words like "hijack" "bombs" "plane crash" etc. ad nauseum.

Poor case to prove your point.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

154. Dude, YOU made it about ethnicity. "Listen, if I were Arab-American..."

Now you are backpedaling but it's right there in post #9. YOU said it.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughMoran]

47. Yeah, I'm not digging the hypocrisy of this one

This is ridiculous posting by someone who would be apeshit if it were somehow related to their sexual orientation.

[cboy4]

51. There's a big difference between an airline dragging someone

off the plane simply because they're gay versus saying something that frightens passengers.

I am in favor of the airlines, ejecting anyone, including gay people, who is considered a threat to peace and safety on board an airplane.

Sorry to destroy your argument.

[Warren Stupidity]

54. Your own words betray you here.

"Listen, if I were Arab-Armerican, I would know better to watch what I say on an airplane. I mean let's be honest."

Indeed, let us be honest. You think that arab-americans have less rights than you. In your posts you have put words in their mouths they didn't say, insisted that the printed reports, and it seems the FBI must have gotten in wrong, and simply believe that it is just fine for muslims to be tossed off planes for no good reason at all if some bigot decides that "Wow, the jets are right next to my window" constitutes a terrorist threat.

And you are being stupid about the parallels to your own human rights struggle here. Clue up cowboy.

[cboy4]

57. I'm not going to argue with a fundamentally dishonest person

like yourself.

I already shot down one of your arguments, and now you're accusing me of thinking Arab-Americans have less rights than I do.

WRONG.

Get back to me when you want to be honest.

[Warren Stupidity]

59. Your own words dude,

You've done your ownself in here. Calling people liars ain't helping you at all.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

157. I don't know what you think you've "shot down"

So far, it looks like you are just digging yourself in deeper.

[TommyO]

68. Yes, becuase dark skinned people are something to be frightened of.

and pose such a threat to peace and safety.

[cboy4]

70. Yea TommyO, because that's exactly what I'm arguing.

:dunce:

[TommyO]

134. You're telling people to shut up and sit down

especially if they're Arab-American, they should know better after all. Your words are your undoing.

[ExPatLeftist]

86. "...saying something that frightens passengers."

In this day and age, some idiots are afraid of EVERYTHING. So we have to now watch what we say because it might "set them off"? Things like "Wow, the jets are next to my window"?

And people of certain colors should especially refrain from saying them right? But then, I am sure that the clothes they were wearing might have scared some people, so they should be forced into appropriate attire as well, right? And the color of their skin itself undoubtedly scared someone, so they should simply be refused the right to fly, right?

When we start choosing our actions based on an assumed reaction from some idiot, freedom is out the window.

You speak of this very pragmatically - "this is just how the world is" - but the world is what we make it. You have just bought in to a ridiculous attitude and choose to defend it by claiming that is just the breaks. But so many struggles in our nation have been based on changing the reality - not just accepting it and excusing it because it is fact.

I agree that it might be annoying to you that people throw the gay rights thing in your face, but consider this: Gays simply cannot get married in the US. That is simply how it is, and gays should be aware of that and be extra cautious in their daily lives so that they do not scare any homophobes. Does that sound acceptable to you? It is almost exactly what you are telling Arab Americans to accept. And it is absolutely ridiculous.

[cboy4]

92. No, it's not almost exactly what I'm telling Arab Americans to

accept .. your gay analogy is way off.

Again, my point is ALL passengers should watch what they say on an airplane when it comes to comments that might be construed the wrong way.

That's why if you even mention the word "bomb," or "hijacking" in an airport terminal, and an undercover agent hear you (and there are plenty of them walking around), you will be escorted for questioning, whether your comments were strictly innocent, and whether you are Black, Arab, Asian, Caucasian, Latino, gay, straight or whatever.

I'm not arguing that Arab-Americans deserve to be treated differently.

I'm arguing that everyone has to use their common sense in this post 9/11 world we live in.

I didn't make it this way .. I'm only pointing out reality,

[muriel_volestrangler]

97. And what about mentioning jets?

Since that's the subject. Are jets now a forbidden topic too, for everyone?

[cboy4]

102. You cannot go on a jet and start talking about things that

upset passengers and could lead to potential panic.

The captain has a wide range of authority to throw your ass off of his plane if you so much as begin to act up.

Try it sometime.

And then see who wins once you complain.

[ExPatLeftist]

119. So is there a list of what cannot be said? Or is it just

"anything that may potentially frighten some mouthbreather" - because that seems like the "logic" you are applying here.

I can totally imagine just about anyone (especially a new flyer) mentioning that they are sitting by the jet engines, just as an observation. How in the world should someone know that is a "taboo" subject? And why do you keep mentioning saying things like "bomb", etc. and then when it is pointed out that that is NOT The case here (at least according to all available evidence), you shrug that off and simply say, "Well, anything that may scare someone".

I would never imagine that mentioning the proximity of the plane's engines to my seat could in any way be construed as threatening, so who decides this criteria?

Also to note: Many times now you have said that "Arab Americans" should be extra careful, now you are trying to backpedal on that by saying "anyone" - which is it?

[cboy4]

126. I said from the beginning that everyone has to watch what they

say, so don't go down the same road of dishonesty as your hard left friends and insinuate I all of a sudden just brought up other ethnicity's.

No, there is not a written list of things you cannot say.

But there is an unwritten list of conversation that people of even average IQ's should understand to avoid. You know, aka, common sense.

[ExPatLeftist]

130. So this "common sense" - does that include not mentioning the location of the jets?

You are going in circles.

And yes, you said that all races should be very careful - and then specifically said that Arab Americans should be extra careful.

BTW I am not going the same way as anyone, and I post alone here, no "friends" on this site. I also personally judge each situation on its own merit and do not rely on oversimplified labels like "hard left" to decide for me what I will and will not support. I could really care less how you or anyone else views my opinions, or how you want to label them so they can fit into a mind that cares about whether something is viewed as "hard left" or anything else.

This issue, in my personal opinion (and not because it is "hard left"), based on the information I have, stinks to high heaven and really bothers me. I would like to discuss the situation on its own merits, not argue against labels that you yourself impose.

The situation as we know it is simple: A guy on a plane said "Wow, I am right next to the jets". Is this something that you think should warrant someone and his entire family being removed from a plane? Not generalizations of "people need to be careful", but this very situation. Can you give a straight answer on that one?

[cboy4]

136. Yea, my answer is I don't believe the comment made was as

mundane as something about wow, I am right next to the jets.

I believe there were extrapolating comments.

One would have to be bat shit crazy to go through all the trouble of complaining and causing a flight delay, forcing themselves to be interviewed by cops, the airlines, etc., all because of a comment about seeing the engines out the window.

Sorry, but that doesn't sound logical to me.

[ExPatLeftist]

138. So you automatically assume that the authorities are to be trusted?

...and that others are just liars? That is one area where we fundamentally agree, then.

There is no evidence at all for what you say, yet you have made up your mind. And then you claim others are closed minded for NOT making the same unwarranted assumption that you have made.

You are no friend to logic.

Also, the comments about "Arab Americans" by you are clearly documented in this thread, yet you continue to backpedal. I disagree also that race should come into play when people must watch what they say.

You are just going in circles now.

[cboy4]

142. I said, for the thousandth time, that I don't believe the comments

were as mundane as have been reported.

And I didn't say others are close minded. I said they are extreme leftists.

Hopefully nobody in this thread is a professional journalist.

I've been nothing but misquoted about everything.

I'm not the one going in circles. That's for sure.

[ExPatLeftist]

147. And I believe in the Tooth Fairy.

You are a hardcore fascist if you do not.

[cboy4]

150. Personal attack

I knew I could get you to lose your composure.

Weak.

[ExPatLeftist]

151. Replying to yourself now? To whom were you referring? n/t

[LostinVA]

209. He is replying to YOU -- it's how the board replies are threaded at this point

[muriel_volestrangler]

162. "I knew I could get you to lose your composure" - sounds like you're not here to discuss

but to annoy people. Why? Are you fed up with working with Democrats, so now you've decided to take a far right position on a matter of civil rights, to see who you can piss off on a Democratic board? Calling civil rights a 'hard left' position is a far right position. You seem to be using it repeatedly to get a reaction out of people who are quite moderate, but have a basic belief in the rights of these Americans.

[LanternWaste]

169. I've noticed that for many posters...

I've noticed that for many posters, DU is not a so much a place of open dialog and entertaining conjectures, but simply a forum to illustrate how clever we can sometimes be.

Focusing on "winning" an argument rather than actually being correct. It seems to me that the loudest, the most annoying, and the most ineffectual posters tend to fall into this particular category...

[ExPatLeftist]

167. I was making a point. A similar one to many others on this thread - but you cannot figure them out.

The point is that just because you believe something that has no proof (i.e. that they said something more than mentioning the jets, or the Tooth Fairy), that does not make it true. You take that even further by labeling people that do not believe in your imagined scenario as "far left".

I have just done the same thing to you - stating my imagined scenario (that the Tooth Fairy is real) and then putting a label on everyone that does not believe in whatever I made up in my head (fascist).

So why when you play the imagination and labeling game do you call it logic, and when others do it it is a "personal attack"?

I am completely composed, despite your juvenile goal to "get me to lose my composure". I was trying to make a point which was totally lost on you - but then I am beginning to understand that I need to spell things out for you that others would simply understand.

[bad_robbie]

153. OK -- So they were taken off the plane for what they said.

But what they said didn't really sound scary. So they must have actually said something scarier, otherwise they wouldn't have been taken off the plane. And since they were taken off the plane, it must be that what they said justified that, since otherwise they wouldn't have been taken off the plane. Got it.

This really is the "Catch-22" thread.

[ExPatLeftist]

158. Agreed completely. That poster has no concept of logic. n/t

[uppityperson]

171. And that is exactly the problem. What happened wasn't logical.

[ronnie624]

122. "...my point is ALL passengers should watch what they say on an airplane..."

Your own words suggest otherwise:

-"Listen, if I were Arab-Armerican, I would know better to watch what I say on an airplane."

-"It's not fair that Arab-Americans have to watch what they say, but it's the way it is thanks to 9/11.

-"The reality I'm referring to is that Arab-Americans find themselves in a position of having to watch what they say, or they can be booted off of a plane."

Your arguments suggest that you regard racial profiling as inevitable and acceptable. This is a strange position for someone who claims to idolize Martin Luther King Jr. Your messages are riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions.

[cboy4]

129. Naturally I'm going to focus on Arabs-Americans, because

they are the people who were involved in this incident.

But my over all point stands that ALL passengers should watch what they say.

And it's not racial profiling.

Well before 9/11, the airline industry cracked down people using words and engaging in conversations that could be deemed as threatening.

So no, no inconsistencies and conradictions.

All passengers need to avoid making certain comments that could be deemed as potential threats, etc.

That's the bottom line.

[muriel_volestrangler]

164. "five of the six adults in the party are of South Asian descent"

so, not Arab-Americans. But you do seem to be concentrating on that ethnicity, although it's not involved. Exactly how carefully have you read this story?

[entanglement]

251. I bet cboy thinks they're all the same. One of the "they all look the same to me" types

;)

[goodhue]

185. South Asians are not Arab Americans

[GReedDiamond]

222. cboy4, channeling Ari Fleischer...

"...all Americans...need to watch what they say, watch what they do."

-Ari Fleischer, September 20, 2001, in response to comments by comedian Bill Maher.

[cboy4]

245. That's a lovely little quote. But it's taken out of context, considering

I said people have always had to watch what they say at airports.

Long before 9/11, you would quickly find yourself detained if you discussed certain topics at airports and on airplanes.

If you want to beat me at debate, you at least have to get your facts straight hunn.

[GReedDiamond]

263. I don't need to...

..."beat (you) at debate."

You've done a pretty good job of revealing yourself through your bigoted statements and fear-mongering, whether you now deny them or not, sweetie.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LanternWaste]

190. What precisely did they say...

What precisely did they say that frightened the other passengers (as that seems to be what your entire position is predicated on)?

[cboy4]

212. I don't know, but it must have been a doozy.

:scared:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

215. The airline has apologized to the family and offered free airfare

Must've been a doozy, alright. :eyes:

[cboy4]

221. Awww, that's wonderful. I have a little tear in my eye.

:cry:

lol

[mrreowwr_kittty]

225. You are basically getting your ass handed to you on this thread.

I, for one, find it highly enjoyable. :)

[cboy4]

247. Spoken by the person who never wins arguments at DU.

LOL

[mrreowwr_kittty]

258. Oh well I guess I should take some pointers from you on this thread

Or maybe not.

:rofl:

Loser.

[cboy4]

267. Yea, you need something.

You come across as very timid with no trace of self confidence.

That's why all you're capable of doing is making mediocre smart ass remarks.

Tragic.

[Dorian Gray]

234. The fact that they did so

pretty much negates your entire argument in this thread. Sooo... there is that.

[summer borealis]

15. ""I suspect a little bit more was said""

Never do that. Never assume the u.s. gestapo knows something you don't.

[trumad]

32. Oh that's great....

Sounds like early 40's Germany to me.

[ExPatLeftist]

19. "It's not fair that Arab-Americans have to watch what they say, but it's... thanks to 9/11"

If we let it be that way.

Seems to me that you are part of the problem making it that way.

Strangely enough, the same thing did not apply to rednecks after the OKC tragedy...

[Dorian Gray]

22. You are making assumptions

about what they said that you have no proof for, and what we do know isn't enough to have had them kicked off a plane. And when they were cleared by the FBI, Air Tran should have allowed them to fly on their plane or PAID FOR A NEW FLIGHT.

[cboy4]

23. I'm not defending Air Tran. I'm arguing that people need to use

their noggins.

[Dorian Gray]

152. Well...

they said what they said. It was deemed not dangerous by the FBI. And Air Tran's actions were terrible. It seems as though you were justifying their actions in response to the words that members of this family said. If you don't think that their actions were justified, I'm not sure what you are arguing for here.

When cleared by the FBI, Air Tran should have provided transportation for the entire family to get them where they paid to go.

[cboy4]

159. No. Actually the FBI cleared them of any criminal wrong-doing.

Air Tran's captain made the call he felt was appropriate and his company is backing him.

Air Tran isn't obligated to accommodate them after they delayed and disrupted operations.

That family has every right not to do business with Air Tran again of course, but airlines don't screw around any more with this kind of situation.

And I don't think passengers realize just how much authority pilots have. It's their aircraft and they can boot you for just about anything.

[Dorian Gray]

232. The only problem now?

Air Tran is publicly apologizing.

So there is that.

[entanglement]

252. I think you're just a wind-up artist without the honesty to admit your bigotry

:)

[Thorandmjolnir]

30. Sure you are.

By making up facts. You have no idea what was said. But somehow you believe that more incriminating statements were made, than what is reported in the story.

Nice way to claim you're only commenting on reality.

[cboy4]

37. The reality I'm referring to is that Arab-Americans find themselves

in a position of having to watch what they say, or they can be booted off of a plane.

Nobody can deny this reality whether it's fair or not.

I'm simply pointing out this truth.

No, I don't know what the precise statement was, but sorry .. I personally believe it was more than just making a comment about how these people could see the engines from their seats.

Come on now.

[Warren Stupidity]

48. So it is ok to be Arab American

Just don't draw attention to yourself.
Did you forget your empathy pill this morning?

[cboy4]

55. I never said that.

:thumbsdown:

I said the reality is there are *some* people nervous about flying with Arabs after 9/11.

Those are the facts.

I'm not defending them. I'm pointing them out.

And I'm saying, it would seem to me if you were Arab, you'd try to keep a low profile on a plane in order to avoid what happened on Air Tran.

[Warren Stupidity]

58. "Listen, if I were Arab-Armerican, I would know better to watch what I say on an airplane."

Lets be honest, ok?

Did you want a bigger shovel or a hand out of the hole you are in?

[cboy4]

62. I realize I'm outnumbered by the radical left, but I'm

perfectly comfortable with my analysis.

[Warren Stupidity]

66. The radical leftists here who had your back on gay rights?

Those radical leftists?

You know what? I now care just a little bit less about that fucking asshole Rick Warren giving the invocation prayer at the inauguration.

Any other bigotry inside you that you want to bring out now, or is it just leftists and muslims?

[cboy4]

69. I like how I'm held hostage about gay rights!

Don't go along with us CBOY and we're going to change our mind about teh gays. :eyes:

It's like coercion.

[trumad]

71. WOW--- I'm considered to be the "Radical Left" for railing against Bigotry...

I'm pretty startled that this is coming from a guy who see's bigotry on every corner--- but I guess it's only Gay bigotry that he is concerned about.

[cboy4]

76. Nice straw man. Using teh gay card to argue a topic you

disagree with me about.

What, if I write I hate how people drive slow in the fast lane, I'm going to hear .. yea, but I bet you wouldn't care if the slow drivers are gay ... :eyes:

give me a break.

[trumad]

83. Now that's a strawman...

Dude---you not being able to see what everyone in this thread is saying to you is pretty amazing.

[cboy4]

87. What's "pretty amazing" is everyone's inability to fathom

that perhaps this family was not behaving appropriately on the aircraft.

Instead, everyone takes the hard left position that the authorities have to be the ones who are wrong.

Amazing indeed.

[newtothegame]

90. Buddy, I'd give up...

clearly everyone on this thread, and sometimes on this board for that matter, are more concerned with catching users in a "gotcha" moment of alleged prejudice and racism, or digging for trolls, than using the site as a discussion board.

[cboy4]

94. Yup. So true.

It's called desperation.

[muriel_volestrangler]

95. I advise him to give up, for a completely different reason

Practically no-one believes him when he says that Muslims have to watch what they say to their family, in case such bigoted idiot overhears it and overreacts. Why he's so keen on getting Muslims to STFU, I don't know. It's bizarre to claim that allowing people to remark to their family that they are next to the jets is somehow a 'hard left' position.

Since he's so comprehensively failed to make his case, perhaps you could take a stab at it? (That, of course, is a metaphor that cboy4 would tell a Muslim never to use in public) However, your claim that we're looking for 'gotchas', rather than defending the rights of people not to be detained without good reason, doesn't fill me with hope you're going to succeed.

[cboy4]

98. Naturally, and conveniently, you're leaving out the part where

I stress people of all ethnic backgrounds need to watch what they say in airports and on airplanes.

And the hard left position is not believing that the family has a right to make the alleged remark.

The hard left position is automatically believing the family, just because they must be persecuted Arab-Americans.

It's the default position of we believe the defendants and never the government.

That's the hard left position.

[newtothegame]

99. :) Relax. Hugs and kisses.

DU is much better for information than discussion. Trust me, it's all about gotcha's when posters are using site bandwith posting about their disaapointment that they weren't the first to alert on somebody. Is this A&E's "Bounty Hunters?"; I'd rather get my rocks off getting out there and actively fighting against injustice than alerting on potential "trolls" on an online message board comprised of people that mostly agree with me."

[trumad]

101. Oh fucking horseshit...

Cboy stuck his foot in his ass and he can't get it out.

[trumad]

100. The "hard left"...

as opposed to you taking the position of the "hard right"?

Keep digging Cboy...

[cboy4]

106. I'm pretty sure the hard right doesn't care about the discrimination

against Arab-Americans.

I do care.

But I don't believe ejecting people for reportedly causing a disruption is discrimination.

It's called the captain neutralizing a situation before it starting causing a disruption on his aircraft.

He has wide authority to kick people off who he or she feels is trouble.

[Dorian Gray]

155. You are making this long and convoluted

argument about what they DID say, but you are ignoring that the FBI, a government security organization, CLEARED them to fly. So this "family v. the government" thing isn't flying. The only perpetrators in this instance were the airline/TSA for kicking them off the flight because of nervous passengers. And in a way, I can understand that. If there are enough complaints, the TSA probably should remove the family, regardless. But the worst of it all was the refusal of the airline to pay for them to complete their itinerary as soon as the FBI cleared the family to fly.

[polmaven]

173. And when the airline

refused to put them on another flight AFTER the FBI "cleared" them? Was THAT OK too?

Do you think the FBI simply took the family's word for it? Isn't it more likely that they spoke with the accuser or crew members before determining that there was no threat made?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

177. Rick Warren cares about gay people too.

He says so. All the time.

[Thorandmjolnir]

214. cboy4, please read the fricking article.

It wasn't the captain who booted them of the flight. The FBI came on board and asked them to come with them.

They even detained another guy, who apparently looked Muslim, who is an attorney with the Library of Congress, and who didn't say a word, but was just a friend of the family.

[cboy4]

250. I did read it, and even though the airline apologized to get

everyone off of its back, Air Tran officials said, "While ultimately this issue proved to be a misunderstanding, the steps taken were necessary."

Excellent. And I agree with them. :thumbsup:

[BeliQueen]

110. What's amazing is that you have extraordinary powers;

The power to assume that more was said than what was reported, and the power to excuse bigotry as reality.

I saw a local report on this incident this morning. One of the passengers said that they are always extremely careful about what they say or do while flying because they know that certain things can be misconstrued.

You have assumed that these people acted inappropriately with no proof that they did. That says more about you than them.

You also blame the result of your unfounded accusation on reality not bigotry. Yet again--more about you than the passengers.

[cboy4]

114. I'm just saying that here at DU ... the hard left will always take the

side of the purported persecuted, without asking more questions.

My father is an airline pilot, so I take the side of the airline industry.

Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way.

But to insinuate I'm a bigot because I don't follow the lead of the far leftists at DU in their unconditional support for anyone who files a complaint against the airlines .. well that's just sad and pathetic.

[demgurl]

260. cboy....

"the hard left will always take the side of the purported persecuted, without asking more questions."

It would appear that a bunch of people, here, did not need to ask more questions as they researched it thoroughly. People have consistently told you what is in the article and pleaded with you to read it so that you would be more educated on the subject. People have also brought up interviews that were done on the subject. The people making these comments can do so because they researched it and are trying to use common sense.

You repeatedly said we are against authority and yet many here have pointed out that the FBI let the family go. DUer's are showing you that they do trust authority while you have not acknowledged that the FBI were right in letting the passengers go.

You are against law suits because they drive up prices. The only reason these people were denied re-entry onto the plane is because of their religion. They were not Arab so that could not be why they were frowned upon. The only other thing is that they were Muslim and so they wore the appropriate head dress kind of like the email sent out with Obama's picture insinuating that we should all be scared of Muslims.

You said they needed to be careful of what they say. Do you also think they should be careful of what they wear? If you say 'yes' you are saying they may not freely practice their religion, and all of the traditions that go with it, in this country.

The FBI talked to everyone on that plane. They talked to the family, the person who made the complaint as well as the staff. They cleared everything and said everything was totally innocent. If the family had said one of the key words such as bomb or high jack then they were obligated to arrest the family and not let them fly. The actions of the FBI tell us more than anything else does.

Because these people were not Arab then the only reason we can conclude they were not allowed to fly, after the FBI cleared them, is their religious dress. Do we really want to set a precedent where freedom of religion is not tolerated in this country? We can say they must be careful all we want but stating a religious person actively following their religion through dress, or anything else, truly means freedom of religion is now banished.

It is wrong for the airline (especially after the family was cleared by the FBI) to be denied access to the flight due to their race or religion or even sexual preference. I would not stand for it if a gay couple was kicked off the plane just for being gay or a religious person is kicked off the plane for being religious. That is grounds for a law suit because whenever the weakest among us are subjected to such actions we need to fight against it because we are all effected by such things.

[Thorandmjolnir]

213. Radical left?

WTF does that mean?

Care to explain what about my comment is either radical or "left"?

[uppityperson]

174. Which of these people are scary? Which is a "arab american"?

[goodhue]

187. South Asians are not Arabs

[islandmkl]

52. why aren't you AT ALL CONCERNED with the person who 'reported' the statement(s)??..

apparently you feel that 'one should know better' is an acceptable aspect of a democracy...

the easiest, softest part of the establishment of a police state is in the creating of a 'tell on your neighbor' system...

it seems to me that if your father was concerned about simple flight safety questions, he would be MORE than willing to engage the passengers(or at least have the attendants do so) to EDUCATE and reassure ANYONE on a flight of the great safety in commercial flying...

i guarantee you that if my 84 year-old mother, whiter that white, made the same remark, somebody would have:

1) totally ignored, let alone dismissed, the remark

2) a airline employee would be patting her arm and reassuring her

to say that muslim, arab, WHAT-THE-HELL EVER, people should watch what they say IS NOT REALITY...it is the CHANGING of what we accept in the erosion of one of our basic civil rights in this country...

FREE SPEECH is not a tenet of most nations' citizens rights...and that right alone is the true measure of freedom

[bobd0]

45. You're pointing out reality alright.

The reality of Americans profiling Americans.

If you feel it's fair to make blanket statements about what can or cannot be said in an airport then I feel it's fair to make this blanket statement; the people who reported these passengers would have reported them even if they didn't overhear something "suspicious" because the people who reported these passengers are small-minded, frightened bigots.

Making excuses for them only enables them.

[merh]

79. Oh, so Arab Americans do not enjoy free speech

and should know their place.

I thought you were for civil rights for all - guess just not the Arab Americans or those suspicious looking Muslims.

[cboy4]

108. Strawman. Free speech is not unlimited at airports where you're

not allowed to discuss bombs and hijacking and terrorists and other frightening topics.

And on board airplanes, the captain can eject you for saying anything he or she feels will cause problems and disruptions .. especially at flight level.

So, your free speech comment doesn't work, since free speech is limited for everyone .. not just Muslims, but every flier.

And I am for civil rights for all.

Another nice strawman :thumbsdown:

[merh]

113. Not a strawman

a direct response to your post

cboy4
Donating Member (1000+ posts)
Fri Jan-02-09 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #6

9. Listen, if I were Arab-Armerican, I would know better to

watch what I say on an airplane.

I mean let's be honest.

And authorities are not saying they only mentioned the jets are near the window .. that's a quote from the family.

I suspect a little bit more was said.

It's not fair that Arab-Americans have to watch what they say, but it's the way it is thanks to 9/11.

I'm simply pointing out reality.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3668469&mesg_id=3668489

As you put it, I'm simply pointing out reality.

[cboy4]

116. Re-read my post. I said there are limitations to free speech

at airports and on airplanes.

You don't seem to get that.

[merh]

123. Your post was specific to Arab Americans

Please pay heed to your own words, you specifically targeted Arab Americans in the post I responded to.

As has been pointed out to you, a white passenger would not have to worry about the comment made by these people. Hell, you responded to a poster that is a blonde white woman who said something about crashing the plane into the mountains. She wasn't escorted from the plane.

You don't seem to get that, do you.

cboy4
Donating Member (1000+ posts)
Fri Jan-02-09 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #6

9. Listen, if I were Arab-Armerican, I would know better to

watch what I say on an airplane.

I mean let's be honest.

And authorities are not saying they only mentioned the jets are near the window .. that's a quote from the family.

I suspect a little bit more was said.

It's not fair that Arab-Americans have to watch what they say, but it's the way it is thanks to 9/11.

I'm simply pointing out reality.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3668469&mesg_id=3668489

[merh]

81. and if I were gay, I wouldn't expect to have my union called a

marriage, it's not fair but that's the way it is.


PLEASE NOTE - the above post does not reflect how I feel or what I believe, I am just trying to help cboy realize how he is putting the stamp of approval on discrimination.

[cboy4]

109. Oh look, another little gay comment.

I can't have differing views at DU, without people like Merh playing teh gay card.

Classy.

[merh]

117. It's not playing the gay card, cboy

it is trying to point out to you that if you truly are for equality as you claim, you have to be for it for everyone, even those dark skinned folks that make you nervous on the plane.

The only one playing the gay card would be you, taking offense to an effort to point out to you how easy it is to replace a few words in your absolute statements defending discrimination to turn that statement into something you claim to be fighting against.

[cboy4]

121. Another dishonest post from Merh, saying that "those dark

skinned folks that make you nervous on the plane."

I, of course, never said such a thing.

You keep denying you're playing teh gay card.

You are so far off topic, I need binoculars.

[merh]

124. Nope, you are the one playing the gay card

"folks are attacking and misinterpreting my statement because I am gay " - that is playing the gay card.

You claim to be about equality yet you specifically state Arab American's should know better than to talk - silly folks, they need to keep their mouths shut. They should know their place.

Try as you like to cover it up and make excuses, you have defended and justified discriminatory practices. All of your cute little comments cannot erase your words, they are in this thread for all to see.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Regret My New Name]

143. The authorities cleared them, no?

I'm sure someone already pointed this out to you...

[cboy4]

149. LOL. Yea, the authorities cleared them of any criminal charges

but the pilot felt he made the right call, and his airline is standing behind him.

As they should.

[cwydro]

181. The two air marshals on board agreed also.

Apparently some people on this thread are happy to fly without any safeguards.

I'm not a huge fan of TSA, but they are there for a reason. And the airlines have the right to boot anyone off a flight if they see a problem.

[cboy4]

211. Oh my, I didn't hear about the air marshals.

Something was up then.

[cwydro]

229. Yeah, sorry I did not include a link.

but I found it with a google search.

You are right; there was something else going on there.

Oh, and I am gay too...since that seems somehow to be pertinent to this discussion.;-)

[cboy4]

246. Yea, I had no idea airline security and homosexuality

went hand in hand.

Live and learn.

Jesus. :eyes:

[entanglement]

253. So it took you 100 posts to reveal that daddy is a pilot and you're a bigot

with a fetish for 'authority'. You could have done that with just one post, ya know ;)

[goodhue]

184. Earth to ignorant Americans, South Asians are not Arabs

[GReedDiamond]

186. It is a "reality" that will continue to exist...

...as long as irrational fear rules our lives.

You may "suspect" all that you like about what these innocent travelers may or may not have said, but it is irrelevant to the fact that the intention of "airport security" is more about instilling FEAR (of TSA/DHS) than about screening out potential "terrorists."

Your precious "Authorities" are the problem, not the People.

Welcome to the New AmeriKKKa. Now watch what you say and do what you are told, or you'll be SORRY you were ever BORN!

[greguganus]

27. And NEVER say hi to someone named Jack while on a plane!! n/t

[Psephos]

53. lol n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

44. Your rights are my rights

And these Americans were deprived of their rights by islamophobic idiots.

[Obamanaut]

61. Would it be safe to talk using asterisks, as in "w**dow"? sheesh nt

[TechBear_Seattle]

133. I do use such words, every time I go through airport security

I have sleep apnea, so I must sleep with a C-PAP. When I travel, the C-PAP goes with me, as does (usually) my laptop. The computer just needs to be taken out, put in a tray and run through the x-ray machine; no problem. The C-PAP has to be taken out, manually inspected, swabbed with what looks like a Clearasil pad and the pad run through a mass spectrometer to test for residue from explosives or drugs; all this takes about 10 minutes.

I have ALWAYS pointed out to the TSA uniforms that if I were ever to attempt to smuggle a bomb onto a plane, I would be smart enough to disguise it as a laptop, with is not scrutinized, rather than as a common piece of medical equipment, which is.

Got a lot of rolled eyes and more than a few agreements (from the security personnel!!) but never had any problem. Maybe it's because I do not look "Muslim."

[bad_robbie]

148. There are a lot of very scared people in the world . . .

. . . but we're not doing them any favors by treating other adults like children. Sure you don't tease small children that their plane is about to crash, or there are monsters in the closet, or their mommy might get run over by a cement mixer. But I think we're talking about grown-ups who really should know better. Allowing ourselves to be cowed by fear into not talking about ordinary concerns just plays into the hands of the "terrorist", whoever he may be. By showing that we can discuss our fears, we demonstrate that we are mature individuals who won't be terrorized by either angry extremists or ambitious politicians. I'm not naive: I understand what it means to "go along to get along". I just don't think we serve ourselves and our fellow man best by doing it.

[galledgoblin]

175. I understand what you're trying to say, but it's BS

yeah, people's prejudices mean profiled people need to watch what they say around numbnuts, but they shouldn't have to, and I'm pretty sure they do not need to be warned by others, as they have no doubt grown up experiencing the negative outcomes. (as the poor three kids did)

in this case, your comment makes even less sense, since they never used any of those phrases. the people in this instance were frightened bigots who shame us all.

[goodhue]

180. But those words were not used, so who is your earth calling?

Sorry but I don't understand. I'm not aware of any incidents whatsover involving use of such words.

[aquart]

203. Born in Detroit. They had American accents.

Americans are supposedly allowed to talk any way we want. No matter what we look like.

[Lifetimedem]

8. I think TSA was doing their job

The last 2 times I flew they searched my luggage . I am an anglo grandmother..

Should they have been given a "pass " BECAUSE of their appearance?

[ixion]

13. TSA's 'job' is to make flyers miserable and paranoid

which they do quite nicely. There job has nothing to do with security, and everything to do with indoctrinating folks into the new police state.

They can take a flying f*ck at the moon, for all I care. They should be disbanded immediately along with all the other unconstitutional BS implemented by BushCo.

[OneBlueSky]

42. "Their job has nothing to do with security . . .

and everything to do with indoctrinating folks into the new police state."

Bingo . . .

[HughMoran]

49. People say stuff like this all the time - I know I have

...it's ONLY because they were traditional Muslim that they were hastled.

It's called BIGOTRY and PROFILING and YOU'RE PROMOTING THIS IDIOCY!

[Lifetimedem]

104. would it be

alright NOT to check them BECAUSE they are Muslim?

[Thorandmjolnir]

217. I think youre misunderstanding this thread.

Nobody is saying they shouldn't have been searched like everybody else who wants to fly.

We are saying that they should not have been detained for making a comment about the safest place to sit in an airplane.

Hell, I have especially requested to sit next to the emergency exit. No one has ever detained me. But imagine if I was a "scary looking foreigner (I am a foreigner, but not scary :))that request might be construed differently.

[Lifetimedem]

195. I have heard of white people

Pulled out of a line and given a physical search because they JOKED about being terrorists.

My Korean born daughter in law has been pulled aside because she was born in Korea,


No special exemptions for being Muslim is my policy

[HughMoran]

204. Nobody would argue such an inane point

Who said anything about making terrorist jokes or not also investigating any other person who made terrorist statements.

I'm talking about making comments about one's personal safety when sitting near the engines - it has bothered me since that man was killed when an engine exploded - which is all that was supposedly said in this instance - capice?

[muriel_volestrangler]

78. Did they also stop you taking a flight, which then meant you had to buy a new ticket?

If not, then your position isn't remotely similar. The vast majority of us think they were victimised because they were typically Muslim in appearance - not that they need 'a pass'; that remarks like "the jets are right next to my window" are innocent, and that if made by a European American, would pass unremarked.

[Lifetimedem]

105. If cleared

they should have been put on the next flight.

But this has happened to non Muslims.

Remember the family with the adhd kids or the woman with the baby bottle ?

[cwydro]

170. Exactly.

They body searched my 82 year old mom last time we flew. She's a redheaded Welshwoman, lol.

I am not offended by this. It is just the world we live in now.

And the article I read specifically said there were two air marshals on board and their input influenced the crew's decision.

I think it was correct.

[polmaven]

183. And I'm quite sure

this family's luggage was searched, both checked and carry on, that they went through the X-Ray machine and metal detectors, and had to take off their shoes like everyone else, white, dark, redhead, blond, brunette, brown eyed, blue eyed, wearing head scarves or crucifixes.

If there had been something not easily identified, they would have been body searched as well. And that is absolutely OK with me, because it is happening to everyone.

And, while the whole situation is troubling, the fact that the airline refused to put them on another flight after the FBI had cleared them is absolutely outrageous! Do you think THAT would have happened to your 82 year old red-headed mother? I seriously doubt it.

[Lifetimedem]

191. I think they should have been put on a flight

But the question I pose is should they not have been taken off the aircraft if there was suspicion ? Should they have been allowed to continue BECAUSE they were muslims?

[polmaven]

196. I don't think anyone

came even CLOSE to saying that the should have been allowed to continue because they are Muslims. From where in the WORLD did THAT come?

The point is, though, that they should not have been removed in the first place for saying something for which a European American could have said without suspicion. And for the airline to refuse to put them on another flight AFTER being cleared is simply a denial of human and civil rights!

[cwydro]

230. Hmmm.

I am not so sure about that. Because my redheaded 82 year old mother probably would have raised all kinds of hell and then, yes, she would not have gone anywhere. They would have kicked her off.

It is only because I travel with her that I can keep her Welsh temper at bay. Believe me, the airlines will kick you off any flight if you raise a ruckus. Doesn't matter what you look like or who you are.

[polmaven]

265. Where is there any evidence

that any member of the family raised a "ruckus"?

[tclambert]

10. No doubt the people who complained think of themselves as heroes.

New rule (sorry to Bill Maher): If you're gonna fly on a plane, don't look Arab.
New rule: Don't look Mexican either because the racists seated behind you might not be able to tell the difference.
New rule: Pentecostals on airplanes shouldn't pray in tongues because the paranoids might think you're speaking Arabic. And as far as you know, you might be.

The safe way to mess with the frightened idiots behind you is to look out the window and say, "Look at the wing. There are some bolts missing. That sucker could fall right off."

[THUNDER HANDS]

14. i bet

that if the family had said nothing at all and just kept quiet, people would have still been scared and called the TSA because the family was "acting all quiet...too quiet."

[droidamus2]

18. sure, that's right

I don't fly often but I know I have made comments about where they say is the safest place to sit and nobody has even batted an eye. Sure, that's right, those 'Muslim Terrorists' always bring along their wives and children when they are going to do something on a plane just to show them how it is done. Give me a break with these paranoid people that freak out every time they see someone of apparent Middle Eastern descent on a plane. If there so afraid maybe they should find another flight.

[yellowwood]

28. A Lawyer, You Say?

"Irfan, 34, is an anesthesiologist. His brother, 29, is a LAWYER."
I'd say that Air Tran picked the wrong people to deny service to.

[harmonicon]

31. that's what I'm thinking too

That may be why they seem so calm about the whole thing - this could, and should, pay out big for them. What it won't do is get rid of the institutionalized racism in this country that allows the TSA to pull people off of a flight based on false accusations, while the accuser goes unpunished. This sounds like shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre to me. I'd like to see the person who found these folks "suspicious" sued for defamation of character as well.

[newtothegame]

88. "this could, and should, pay out big for them"

Yeah, isn't it great that you can become an instant millionaire in this country for having been offended?

:sarcasm:

Sure a multi-million dollar lawsuit will keep ticket prices very reasonable for the rest of us.

ed for spelling

[muriel_volestrangler]

96. Only if you travel on that bigoted airline

There's a good moral case for boycotting them anyway.

[cwydro]

182. Two air marshals were on the flight and were part of the decision.

You gonna second guess an air marshal? Something tells me you would sing a different song if you were on an aircraft with some iffy situation.

[muriel_volestrangler]

189. When we hear about an 'iffy situation', let me know

This wasn't one. And while I can see that some jobsworth wants to tick all his boxes created by the fearmongering Department of Homeland Security, by moving everyone off the plane, checking them all back on again, and taking a close look at the Muslim family, on the grounds that some idiot passenger thinks all Muslims are terrorists, that's no excuse for not letting them travel on the airline again. That's the real bigotry - they've been found completely innocent and harmless, and they still have to go elsewhere.

If I had been on this flight, I'd apologise to the family for the harrassment they underwent.

[cwydro]

192. Religion and skin color aside.

An airline can decide it does not want you on the flight and then you are off. It usually takes a fairly significant incident and I'm thinking we don't have the whole story here.

It will come out soon enough. Airlines do not like to piss people off just for the hell of it, despite popular belief, lol.

Something else was going on here.

[muriel_volestrangler]

206. Well, since the airline defenders are guessing there's something more, here's my guess:

The airline realised there were more bigots on the plane than there were family members, so they kowtowed to the bigots who would have complained about the 'terrorists' being allowed to fly. They're cowards, and bigot enablers, and perhaps bigots themselves ("they're only Muslims - they must be used to being discriminated against by now") who deserve to be boycotted by anyone with half an ounce of common decency.

Shame that some DUers feel the need to assert there's a reason for discrimination, that we haven't been told about. It's a strikingly illiberal position. Authoritarian, I'd call it - assuming the business has a real reason for behaving badly, when none has been shown. Liberals are on the side of individuals first.

[cwydro]

228. "Bigot enablers"!

Lol. I have heard it all now.:rofl:

Gonna be giggling about that for awhile...B-)

[entanglement]

254. My views in a nutshell. Great post.

[cboy4]

210. I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets it!

:)

[cwydro]

226. Nope, you and I are frequently on opposite sides.

But we're on the same page here.

[Thorandmjolnir]

218. Since those air marshalls

shot an innocent man in the back in Miami some years ago, I sure as hell am going to second guess air marshals. Not only did they shoot him, they also made up stories afterwords about him saying something about a bomb. People on the plane said the guy made no such statements, and his wife said he was on medication.

[cwydro]

227. I remember that situation and that was very sad.

One CANNOT play around on aircraft with bomb statements or acting crazy or in any way other than being a normal passenger.

If someone has mental health issues that would cause the airplane crew to fear that person, that person should not be flying.

Sorry, but in an emergency situation decisions have to be made quickly. I am not going to second guess the decisions made when an entire passenger contingent is at risk.

[harmonicon]

107. offended?

It's not about being offended, it's about being robbed. Did you miss the part where they had to buy new tickets?

[newtothegame]

112. Right...talk to me when a lawsuit is filed for the price of the tickets and court costs...

I'd say lawyers will be pushing for what: $10 million? $20 million?

[harmonicon]

145. what is your time worth?

What is dignity worth? What is the cost to end racism?

[bad_robbie]

163. There has to be at least some punitive aspect to a court judgement

. . . other than just restitution. Otherwise you could:

1. Rip people off.
2. If you get caught, pay it back.
3. If you don't get caught, keep the proceeds.
4. Play the percentages.
5. Profit!

You don't even need a magic ??? step in the middle, although you may still have to deal with underpants.

Of course, it doesn't have to be that way. The airline could have made them whole and attempted to compensate them for their troubles. It could if it were set up so that the employees involved had the authority and the motivation to fix the problem to the customer's reasonable satisfaction.

But since a corporation is not a moral actor, we have to have some means to punish it if it misbehaves that serves as a deterrent to misbehavior and encourages the entity to obey the law and behave decently. Taking some of its money serves to do this, because that's money that it can't return to its shareholders. And since its purpose is to make money for the shareholders, avoiding punishment results in better performance of its goals.

[newtothegame]

166. Well argued and I don't disagree.

They should be compensated for their time and ticket cost. And there should be a deterrent to the airline doing this again. But instead of people becoming millionaires because someone was an asshole to them one time, couldn't punitive damages in cases like this go to like a charity?

ed for sp

[Ms. Toad]

193. Well, if the airlines force it to go to court, perhaps

they should.

My car was "totaled" by another motorist. Anyone who has dealt with the insurance industry knows that "totaling" a car is pretty discretionary. It is unrelated to the absolute damage or the ultimate safe repair of the car, but rather the age of the car which drives the blue book value (adjusted for all sorts of things) below the repair value. An older car can be "totaled" even if only relatively cosmetic repairs are required - and the consequences of totaling the car is that your title is required to be surrendered to the insurance co, the car given a salvage title, with no guarantee that you can ever get a non-salvage title again - even if you are willing hand over the settlement money to the insurance company in exchange for the car.

I pleaded with the insurance company not to total my car. The accident was not my fault, and all I wanted was my car and my medical bills paid. I knew my car was sound and that I couldn't purchase a car I trusted for the amount they were willing to pay me to total my car. They refused. I reluctantly got an attorney involved and walked away with my car, my medical bills paid, and around $10,000 in pain and suffering (plus an additional $5000 or so that went directly to my attorney).

The car (about 5 years old at the time) served me for another 5+ years, and served two subsequent owners that I know of for a number of years after I owned it.

What should have been a simple $2-4000 payment from the insurance company turned into at least $20,000 because I had to get an attorney involved to salvage my car. They count on discouraging enough motorists that they can afford to pay several time what a claim is worth when a few of us involve legal counsel to assert our rights.

Here, the airline should have paid for their rebooking (or should have rebooked them on another AirTran flight). If the family has to get an attorney involved to recover their out of pocket costs - more power to them. Whatever else they can get that might encourage the airline to realize that is is far more profitable (in good will, if nothing else) to behave reasonably than to rely on the WalMart strategy of forcing everything to litigation (which results in a few big winners - who everyone snarks at as money grubbers - and a lot of people who lose because they cannot afford to litigate to protect their rights).

[newtothegame]

200. Well said and I agree; the airline certainly could avoid the issue by rebooking immediately...

But again, if the damages are supposed to be punitive, couldn't they like to go a charity?

[Ms. Toad]

231. That would be up to the family that suffered the inconvenience

and the expense of litigation.

The out of pocket costs of litigation can be pretty high. Attorneys are not ethically allowed to cover out of pocket expenses (although many contingency fee attorneys who project a big win front the costs (court fees, copying expenses, etc.) to the client and don't bother to collect if they lose). The family may not be able to find an attorney who thinks the win will be lucrative enough (in terms of publicity or money) to take the case on a contingency fee - then they would be looking at probably $50-100,000+ in fees to the attorney, with no guarantee they would win.

Despite all the noise to the contrary, big wins with large punitive damages are not the norm. If anyone bothers to read the decisions themselves, even most of the big wins that seem outrageous on the surface aren't. The McDonald's coffee case comes to mind. (What a lot of people don't know is that the woman spent 7 days in the hospital and received skin grafts over much of her thighs, groin, and buttocks. McDonalds previously received hundreds of complaints about its coffee - settling some for as much as $500,000 - yet refused to offer this woman more than $800. At the temperature at which McDonalds served its coffee at the time (20 degrees higher than its closest competitor in the city), third degree burns would occur in little as 2-15 seconds. The mediator, a retired judge, recommended that McDonalds settle for $225,000 - (in the ballpark of the compensatory damages the jury ultimately awarded). McDonalds refused to do so.)

Far more cases quietly settle and many injured parties barely cover their expenses.

[Thorandmjolnir]

219. Don't know much about the law, do you? nt.

[Gwendolyn]

165. They weren't robbed though. They got their tickets refunded.

This happens every day in many ways.

As posted earlier, you can get thrown off a plane for any number of reasons, including the clothes you wear, breast feeding your baby, taking an unruly child on board, praying, and a myriad of others.

If you're willing to fight ALL these discriminations, and support million dollar settlements for everyone, then I suppose you're a fair minded individual. But why would a muslim be recompensed when orthodox jews, breast feeding mothers, and assorted others are not?

[Ms. Toad]

197. The others should be recompensed, as well.

Anyone the airline throws off the plane for an unjustified reason should be flown to their destination after being cleared without any additional cost. Of the ones you mentioned, I the only justified reason MIGHT be an unruly child - if the child was so unruly that the child interfered with the safe operation of the plane (moving about the aisle during take-off and landing, for example)

Their tickets were refunded, but if they are like me they may well have shopped for the best prices they could get - prices which could be as low as 1/4 of what they would need to pay to purchase tickets at the last minute from another airline. So they were robbed - they paid to fly from point A to point B, they were denied passage because another passenger overreacted to an innocent conversation (based on every report I have read), and were stuck with either foregoing their trip or paying a significantly higher fare to get from point A to point B than they had already paid.

[fascisthunter]

220. discrimination is not just "offensive"

really sad to see people try to marginalize the severity of bigotry. Don't complain if it ever happens to you.

[Gwendolyn]

93. They won't make a penny.

[47of74]

156. Amen to that.

[greguganus]

33. The anesthesiologist could of put them all to sleep. Scary! n/t

[snort]

146. gotta love it.

i hope the airline is sued right the fuck out of business. yeah, this ticks me off.

[cartach]

35. Back in the days when

it was all the rage for various ethnic groups to hijack a plane when they wanted free transportation,remember the phrase "Take me to Cuba!",a friend of mine was seeing off his elderly father on a long air flight. Because of his advanced age and mental condition special arrangements had been made with the airline to ensure the attendants kept a close eye on him during the flight and that he connected with relatives on arrival at the other end. While they were standing in line waiting to hand him over to an attendant prior to boarding he made a remark that he hoped the plane wouldn't be hijacked. Apparently another passenger overheard this remark,reported it and the old fellow was held off the flight subject to investigation and possible arrest and had to take a later flight when it was all cleared up. All this despite the fact the airline staff had prior knowledge of his condition.So this type of situation isn't anything new, except since 9/11 racial profiling has taken over. Too bad as I'll bet there are a lot of palefaces out there who make much more "suspicious" remarks and nobody thinks twice. That of course would change immediately if your run-of-the-mill WASP rednecks started to hijack planes to make their point,as they might well do in future. Then everybody would more or less be treated equally. As for the jet engine remark I can remember making similar and/or more heated ones when the secretary mistakenly booked a seat adjacent to or just behind the engines. That was a no-no in our office if it could be avoided, due to the excessive noise and vibration. For one thing it played hell with hangovers. This is just another example of the Excited States in action,taking drastic steps and fuelling the fire, when levelheadedness was what was called for.

[unblock]

36. i wonder if the accusers were detained.

or is the terra threat a free license for bigots to harass muslims?

[pink-o]

39. I would bet money that this family was Indian, not middle-eastern

A little help for Air Tran's cultural stupidity: Not all Muslims are Arab. In fact, there are white Albanians and Serbians who practice Islam, but I bet neither the stupid racists who turned in a well-educated pair of Indian brothers, nor the stupid racist airline who refused to re-book them would've freaked out so much had these guys been European Muslims.

It was racism and ignorance, pure and simple. Americans had better get their collective heads outta the sand and learn a little bit about the rest of the world's cultures, since we can no longer remain isolated on the global stage.

And I hope these guys get a shitload of payload from the lawsuit they file against Air Tran.

[MrsBrady]

103. i second that n/t

[mrreowwr_kittty]

179. In Mesa, AZ a Sikh Indian was shot and killed shortly after 9-11.

By a stupid bigot who figured anyone wearing a turban was one of THEM.

[goodhue]

188. Indeed, they are reportedly South Asian

They could be Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, etc.

[Vinca]

41. The offense: flying while Muslim. nt

[HughMoran]

50. Best summary so far

:hi:

[pink-o]

262. And flying while being a DARK-SKINNED Muslim at that!

I figured Indian because my dear friend Yasmin is an Indian Muslim from North of Delhi, and her son's name is Atif. She has told me horror stories about Indian ethnic cleansing, where the Hindus have done a Rwanda on Muslims in her region, about 10 years ago. Most people in the west still believe that India is Hindu and Pakistan where all the Muslims were put after a few stupid Brits drew a line down a map (Oh, and that's worked soooo well all over the world--like Israel/Jordan or Northern/Southern Ireland!) But as stated before, Islam has practitioners all over the world and many aren't even Arabic. One of the largest Muslim populations is in Indonesia. The Philippines also have their share. So my point is: people who just assume brown-skinned folks in headscarves who speak exotic languages must all be terrorists are stupid, ignorant, bigoted troglodytes who should just crawl back under their rocks and leave others alone!

Edited for spelling

[bobshin]

75. Funny they haven't banned white kids from high schools.

Oops, my bad, they're white...

[peacetalksforall]

111. For Safety purposes?

Airline people can get paranoid about interpretations of Wow! comments once they stop making jokes when giving the safety messages about doors and exits, etc.

Airline people have a right to be concerned, but if knowledge isn't mixed with concern and prejudice creeps in, then it means Homeland Security has had success in spreading hate for certain people - since perpetuation of hate means perpetuation of war which means perpetuation of profits for a few.

Does anyone realize how many Arab descent people have been living in this country for decades/centuries? Or how many people have converted to Islam and have adopted dress - identifiable dress as many nuns, priests, reverends, mormons, buddhists, Jehovah Witnesses solicitors have?

It is more likely that a bomber would be silent.

It helps to use logic and intellect. But, take a look at the people who gave the orders - Homeland Security. Where is the logic and intellect there - it's all about hysteria and ridiculous non-advice and keeping people agitated, over-reacting, and non-thinking. When combined with people who find it easy to distrust others who are not of northern European, Christian lineage who believe they rule the world or should - a different kind of bomb is created.

I hope these people didn't miss out on any of their seminar.

[Shipwack]

128. Reminds me of a Burroughs quote...

"Thanks, for a country where nobody is allowed to mind his own business. Thanks, for a nation of finks."
--William S. Burroughs, "A Thanksgiving Prayer"

[HughMoran]

161. Oh, no - not those scheming Muslins again!!11111!!1

:evilgrin:

[Duppers]

194. I flew into the UK on Wednesday 21 December 1988

We flew directly over the Lockerbie crash site hours after it happened.

The next plane I boarded had a Muslim woman making a scene, which made me 'very uncomfortable.' Wouldn't you have been?

[goodhue]

198. Your post makes me uncomfortable.

But do tell. How was the scene made?

[Duppers]

237. she was seated next to an unrelated man, which was apparently forbidden

by her religion! The plane could not to take off until all passengers were seated, of course, but she would not take her assigned seat. So, the stewardess got the captain and he asked for volunteers to change places with her and musical chairs ensued--I think three set individuals had to be moved in order to please her.

Everyone was annoyed but the whole thing made me uncomfortable, as a stupid thought crossed my mind--does she not wanted to be seated next to an unrelated male when she enters heaven or what?! :eyes:

She delayed the plane's take-off by at least 15 minutes. The whole ordeal doesn't seem like any big deal now, but it did then. Btw, I am not xenophobic by any means; I was in a relationship with a Turkish Muslim many yrs prior to that, still the whole thing was unsettling to me.



On edit: I re-read the OP. My post was inappropriate and unrelated to this situation and I APOLOGIZE. :blush:
"All but one of them U.S.-born citizens." Good Grief!!! To take these people off the plane WAS SO WRONG!

That's what I get for speeding through a post without thoroughly reading!

[Duppers]

238. deleted

never mind.

[polmaven]

199. Define

"making a scene".

[Duppers]

239. please see above. nt.

nt

[trumad]

236. Only if you're a God Damn ChickenShit!

[Duppers]

240. I'm not a Goddamn ChickenShit!!

and a reminder: it's against DU rules to call other members names, trumad.

Please read my updated post above. Then if you still think I'm a g.d. chickenshit, please let me know asap.

On edit: Buddy, I did not know if more planes were being targeted or not. I was experiencing mild shock that a plane was bombed out of the sky to begin with. I was traveling with my infant son at the time and mothers tend to be more protective than the average joe.

(No one who has ever known me has ever called me a chicken shit. You do not know me!)

[trumad]

241. Quite a change from your original post.

But your original post deserved a Chickenshit tag to it.

Did it not?

[Duppers]

242. re-read my "I'm not a Goddamn ChickenShit!!"

I edited it.

Get back with me.

[trumad]

243. I did... and again---it's a huge change from your first post.

and I ask again--- wouldn't you agree that your first post made you look like a chickenshit?

[Warren Stupidity]

256. self delete

The poster I was responding to subsequently realized what a load of nonsense that post was.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

201. this headlined the news in holland

My dutch friend told me :(. She said it makes the USA look really bad and I said, good, we deserve it.

[The abyss]

216. Interesting

I have followed this thread since about 4am (my time) and watched the most amazing series of comments pro and con on this article.

What has this nation become?

What if that headline read “9 Jewish Passengers Removed From Jet”?

The very idea that this event is somehow “ok” in any way shape or form is an insult! It is an insult to the individuals that form this nation.

[HughMoran]

224. More or less one person has turned this thread into a gigantic cluster fuck to end all clusterfucks

:rofl:

This thread is hilarious!

[MadMaddie]

235. Constant Fear mongering by Faux, * and all of their other like

minded idiots and this is the result they have produced irrational paranoia. If it were a group of whites talking about the same topic would they have been thrown off the plane? That should be our measurement.

Who actually made the complaint?

[HughMoran]

244. OK, I just saw the family involved on my local news

Somebody above owes all of us an apology for making prejudiced assumptions.

This family was a well-spoken and clean-cut looking indian family. They clearly stated that they were simply discussing the safest place on the plane to sit - something I've done on MANY occasions. They realized they were simply targeted due to how they look (women had head scarves on). This was a disgusting instance of pure, unadulterated prejudice by paranoid ass holes.

[trumad]

255. He's long gone from this thread and currently licking his wounds.

Don't know if you remember Carlos (Jacinto) back in the early days of DU---- Cboy is his reincarnate.

[Warren Stupidity]

257. it returned briefly in the afternoon to play last post

[HughMoran]

261. I think sutures will be needed in this case

Perhaps some vitamin E to minimize scarring too. Early days for me are 2004 and I don't recall that ID.

[zelta gaisma]

249. they were TWM(traveling while muslim) that was enough to get them messed with

[Alamuti Lotus]

269. Airliner hell as 40 passengers - many drunk - 'run amok' on flight from Gatwick to Cuba

Airliner hell as 40 passengers - many drunk - 'run amok' on flight from Gatwick to Cuba

More than 40 passengers ran riot on a Thomas Cook flight from London Gatwick to Cuba, with one trying to open the emergency exit in mid-flight.

On the return flight on December 30, the same group were again drunk and 17 were stopped from reboarding for the second leg of their trip at Cuba's Varadero airport.

The passengers, thought to be from Ireland, are said to have 'run amok' on the flight to Holguin in Cuba on December 16.

They are alleged to have caused more drunken mayhem at their all-inclusive hotel in the resort of Playa Pesquero.

And yet, the Irish are still allowed to fly. Ridiculous on all counts (this and the OP).