Saddleback Pastor Rick Warren to speak at King memorial

[davidinalameda]

Source: Orange County Register

Just one day before giving the invocation at President-elect Barack Obama's inauguration, a local pastor will be the keynote speaker at the Martin Luther King Jr. Annual Commemorative Service, officials at Saddleback Church said.
Rick Warren – pastor of the 22,000-member Saddleback Church – made national headlines in recent days when proponents of gay marriage criticized the selection of Warren to give the invocation at President-elect Barack Obama's inauguration.
The service is scheduled for Jan. 19 at the historic Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta and is included in the official program of the 10-day King Center's Martin Luther King Jr. Celebration, which begins on Jan. 10.
The Reverend Mark Whitlock, senior pastor at Christ Our Redeemer AME Church in Irvine, said
Obama’s invitation opened the door for positive communication between the conservative movement and the civil rights movement.
“I think this is nothing but a wonderful statement about the progress that makes up our lives,” said Whitlock. “Rick Warren – someone many would consider in the southern Baptist tradition – has embraced diversity. We can come together in the common love of Christ in contrast to our social opinion.”

Read more: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/warren-obama-church-...

---

We have Obama to thank for making the good Rev. Warren palatable for general consumption

[Bluebear]

1. Yay, it's America's new Pastor!

[davidinalameda]

2. since Billy Graham is retiring someone had to do it

shame it was this bigot

[Ian David]

44. I don't think America can afford to feed Man-on-Pizza Rick Warren. n/t

[madeline_con]

3. "... positive communication between the conservative movement

and the civil rights movement."

Aren't these just two like minded churches where gay rights are concerned?

Aren't gay rights civil rights? I seem to have heard qwuite a bit of NEGATIVE communication between the good rev Warren and the gay rights movement.

[davidinalameda]

4. that struck me as well

I googled Mark Whitlock but couldn't find anything connecting him with Prop 8

and yes, gay rights are civil rights but not to some because we didn't go through the same stuff they did so we're lesser

I'm sure I'll catch hell for this but I wonder how many black kids killed themselves because they were told they were evil and going to hell like so many gay kids

[madeline_con]

6. I see black gays kids take a lot of heat in the schools.

I'm told homophobia is "stronger" in the black community.

[davidinalameda]

8. how many black kids are kicked out of their homes for being black

[madeline_con]

9. True. :(

[Karenina]

25. How many black kids are kicked out of their homes for being gay

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[davidinalameda]

101. probably just as many white kids and brown kids and kids of all colors

homophobia is one of those things that just transcends racial barriers

being homophobic is the only socially acceptable prejudice that exists in this country

[Tangerine LaBamba]

12. Let's hear it for "the down-low"

Tell me again the rates of HIV infection among heterosexual African-American women? Yeah, it's up there.

The black community has traditionally eschewed anything having to do with gay, so this doesn't surprise me. It's kind of disgusting, and I'm old enough to believe that the good Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. would also open his arms to Rick Warren, but only to remind him that he'd better quit fucking over the gay community.

And then he would open his arms to the gay community. Again.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bliss_eternal]

58. My cousin....

...took his life many years ago. He was Catholic, gay and biracial (black). I learned more about him and his issues after the fact (as I was very young when it happened). I'm still learning.

Just because there is no "news coverage" regarding such situations, does not mean they don't exist. Mainstream media is more powerful when they keep communities divided, than with reports that show we're not all that different from one another.

The news would rather perpetuate ideas that suggest people should fear and hate "blacks." With reports of "black on black" crime (among other things I'm too tired to bring up at the moment.) As opposed to allowing the world to see the humanity of a group of people, that shares many of the same issues as other groups, which includes the existence of gay, lesbian and transgendered members---some suicidal.

Forgive me for interrupting, I just thought someone should speak up for those that can no longer speak for themselves. I'm returning to lurk on this issue, unless anyone has questions--which I may be open to, depending upon how they are asked.

Respectfully submitted,
bliss_e.

[dmallind]

5. Yep I mean

his 20 million book sales, his Oprah cult following, his five-figure congregation megachurch all scream that Obama pulled him from obscurity because he was obviously an impotent outcast before he was made "palatable".

[davidinalameda]

7. Obama gave him the biggest stage

and legitimized him by being linked with him

[dmallind]

46. Ermmm no he didn't

He's sold more books - SOLD that is not freely made available - than that.

Whether we think he should be or not, the guy is already not only palatable, not only even mainstream, but already an A list revered celebrity. He's not right, he's not nice, he's not politically modertae. All those things may very well be true, but he is enormously popular (which is why Obama is inviting him not the reverse) and for that we can blame the gullibility and superstitious credulity of the American people. By all means complain about this buffoon - quite warranted too - but to even suggest he is somehow legitimized by Obama when he's already pretty much the number 1 preacher and in the top two or three self-help celebrities in the country is disingenuous at best.

[No Elephants]

116. Obama gave him the imprimatur of the Presidency. That is a legitimacy among

non-fundies way beyond what he had achieved on his own.

[Number23]

17. Exactly. It's Obama's fault, never mind the millions of followers this man already had.

Between this and and the lovely discussion about homophobia in the black community (what is this, like the 472nd time this has come up on DU now?) this is such a very, very interesting place to be right now...

[No Elephants]

28. No matter how many readers he had, a Democratic POT:US had never honored him. Until now.

[madamesilverspurs]

10. It's creepy

how much Warren resembles Falwell. Hmmm. Wonder if he's the illegitimate spawn of Falwell and (maybe) Coulter's mother?

[LynneSin]

11. actually I would draw the line there

Fundies can't stand Warren because Warren does do things that repulse their kind like believe in Global Warm and fight AIDs. Does that mean that I'm justifying Warren in any way - no. Just means that he's not really in that crowd. Fundies, even freepers reject this guy because he's not a pure fundie. Kinda the way they did with Billy Graham decades ago because Graham was not as vile as the rest of them. Vile, just not as vile.

[No Elephants]

30. Lots of religions do work around AIDS, including the Catholic church, fundies and

evangelicals. While people are dying of AIDS, they are not usually having sex. This is how they show they "love the sinner, hate the sin."

[Zhade]

33. Uh, yeah, the catholic church's AIDS work consists of them LYING to Africans about AIDS...

...passing through condoms!

[LynneSin]

40. I didn't say that - I said that's one of the reasons fundies don't like him

Fundies don't believe in Global Warming or help out with stuff like AIDs

[No Elephants]

45. No one said you said that, whatever "that" refers to. My point was that AIDS ministries are very

common ammong all religious denominations. Therefore, I tend to doubt that appreciable numbers of fundies or any religious group can't stand someone because of an AIDS ministry, which is what you said originally.

If you have a credible source you can cite, I'd be very interested in looking at it, though. Anything's possible, I guess.

On edit. A very quick google indicates that Warren bashes fundies. IMO, that is a lot likelier to be the real reason they dislike him. I'll even buy into global warming. But religous folk, including fundies, are very accustomed to AIDS ministries. They are against homosexual sex. Even fundies, though, are not against comforting or praying or sick people,
regardless of how they got that way.

[LynneSin]

49. As I said and I hope this is a bit clearer

Warren is not liked by most fundamentalial Christian groups because of his work he has done with AIDs and Global Warming.

Please don't read anything into that sentence. I know there are other groups out there that do work with AIDs and groups that help fight Global Warming. NONE OF THAT, was in my statement. I was clarifying a very common notion that one only needs to trot over to sites like Free Republic or other Fundamentalist groups and you'll find that many of those people are not keen on Warren because they think he's too lax because of his support with causes NOT normally supported by fundamentalists.

Please, the most aggregrevating thing about this whole Warren issue, other than the fact that his selection has repulsed most of us, is that people will read shit into what other DUers have posted. Please don't do that.

[No Elephants]

117. You are accusing me of reading shit into your posts when the reality is that you

have failed to comprehend my posts. Let me try to be even clearer than I was the first two times.

I doubted the claims that you made in your posts becase your assertions are contrary to my experiences in real life in the real world. I gave you my reasons for doubting your claims. I suggested that, based upon my own knowledge and experience, I could not believe your claims unless YOU support YOUR OWN claims with a credible source if you wanted themn to be believed.

You replied that I am reading shit into your posts and all I have to do to support YOUR posts is go to nutcake message boards? LOL. That is NOT supporting what you posted with credible sources. That is pretty good indication that you cannot provide a credible source for your claims and may not know the meaning of the term "credible source."

That being the case, there is no reason I or anyone else should give your claims credence.

BTW, it is not up to me to do anything at all to prove that claims that YOU post are credible. That is solely up to you. You didn't. Therefore, there is not reason that I or anyone should give claims of yours that you fail to support credence.

[RCinBrooklyn]

13. More of those, "I finally got mine. Screw You." civil rights dinosaurs joing anti-GLBTObama.

[John Q. Citizen]

14. Again, human rights are not the same as human opinions.

[No Elephants]

121. Did someone claim they were? Marriage between two adults who wish to marry each other is not

a human right? Citizens having the law treat them equally is not a civil right?

[tomreedtoon]

15. Another great way to kill Obama before he gets started.

I am waiting for the post that has Warren saying "I ain't got nothin' 'gainst n*****s, it's fags I hate." And another screed against Obama for not incinerating Warren on the spot.

Remember that cartoon of a big "Democrat" knife sticking in the back of Bill Clinton? We need a new cartoon with a "Democrat" knife sticking out of Obama's back. Because that's what so many people on DU are already doing, even before the inauguration.

[Pastiche423]

19. He's doing it to himself

Nary a soul made the decision to put a bigoted fundie on our national stage. That is Obama's to own.

[PFunk]

21. Hey. Obama done it to himself.

He ignored a lot of warnings from many sides to avoid this mess. Maybe after this fisaco is over he'll finially listen

[tomreedtoon]

109. Oh, yes, you'll teach Obama a lesson, all right.

A lesson like this:

He sees a bigger picture, and a little concept called "common cause," rather than focussing upon political correctness. For that Obama deserves the same treatment Clinton got, didn't he?

A lesson that the gay community should learn: when you seek vengeance, dig two graves.

[No Elephants]

31. "Killing?" A tad dramatic, right along with " incinerating" and knife. There are many steps

between incinerating this anti-Democrat bigor and the POTUS going out of his way to giving the sexist homophobe the honor of the America's pastor spot. A Democratic Potus, no less.

As long as we are being dramtic though, it was Obama who put the knife in the backs of members of the GLBT community who worked and contributed to elect him, not the other way arouond. What you are hearing from them now are the cries of pain, not the clash of blades.

Dasy to be outraged by cries of pain when it is not your own pain, I guess.

[tomreedtoon]

108. You weren't around during the Clinton years, were you?

Let me refresh your memory:

That time, it was only over heterosexual sex, and not very good sex at that. And the Republicans got Clinton crippled because of it, with the aid of "moral" Democrats. Now the cause is political correctness to the gay community. The result is the same: a group of people who would rather butcher the common good rather than give up on their personal vindictiveness.

[No Elephants]

118. Let's stick to the subject, which is not Monica. GLBT's worked for Clinton and he hung them out

to dry with DOMA and "Don't ask, don't tell." This time, they worked For Obama and he hangs them out to dry. literally on Day one. Gays did nothing bad to Clinton or Obama. To the contrary, they volunteered and donated and got the shaft. It is members of the GLBT community with the knives of betrayal in their backs on this issue, not Clinton or Obama.

[Zhade]

34. Um, he's legitmizing a BIGOT.

How you can't see that is beyond me.

[No Elephants]

35. Not only legitimizing. Honoring. Lifting Up. Putting on him America's imprimatur.

[tomreedtoon]

107. All I see is this, with one change:

It's Obama with the new knife pocket now. All because he isn't as consumed with hatred and vengeance as certain other Democrats.

[No Elephants]

119. Then work on separating issues. It's not all one big plate of spaghetti. What

Starr, Gingrich et al did in response to Clinton's actions had nothing to do with the GLBT community. Further, Clinton left office with high approval ratings and went on to amass a fortune of over $100 million, so the knife could not have been as well placed as your cartoon indicates.

Oh, and btw, Clinton brought using the Oval Office for bjs and perjury on himself, too. The GLBT community did not make him do that.

[Algorem]

47. Obama's doing the backstabbing.

[tomreedtoon]

106. Obama's fingers weren't on this knife.

Those were Democratic fingers, which were upholding "moral" qualities, egged on by Republicans. As a result, the best economic and social years of the United States were quickly turned around into the worst. Now I see the same manipulation affecting Democrats again on a different moral issue.

[No Elephants]

120. Neither were the fingers of the GLBT community. Also, you are coming to a

conclusion that you make no effert to support--that Bush won because Democrats criticized Clinton. Clinton left office with very high approval ratings, which is likely one of the major reasons Pelosi refused to initiate impeachment procedings of Bush.


Maybe you should stop scapegoating the GBLT community for anything bad that you imagine happened to any Democrat and try to figure out how to help them get the civil rights every human being deserves.

[Bluebear]

60. Shame on you.

[tomreedtoon]

105. On me? My fingers weren't on this knife.

And they won't be on the one going into Obama's back. Can you say the same?

[RainDog]

110. what a re-write of history

I suggest you read The Hunting of the President to find out about who was behind all the Clinton dogging... it certainly WAS NOT democrats. Richard Melon Scaife funded Ann Coulter's "pixies" who worked to dig up dirt, there were people in Arkansas who were after Clinton for years and years... Congress was under the heavy hand of Newt Gingrich and the democrats who voted to impeach did not do so because of gays or anything of the sort.

It was the "moral majority" base they were pandering to - led by the likes of republicans Henry Hyde (with pictures of his mistress eventually coming out, Bob Barr (with pix of him licking a stripper's nipples in one of his finer moments of Christian piety, Dan Burton, who, it turned out, had long had an illegitimate child with his long-term mistress (co-wife?) And of course, Holy Joe Lieberman, that really loyal democrat, led the way in establishing the high moral tone of the hyprocrites.

Congress wasted 70 million tax payer dollars to fund Ken Starr to act as an attack dog and he STILL could not find any legal wrong doing via business interests... so the next best thing, I guess, was to get Clinton for being a hound dog.

So the same sort of voters who would oppose Clinton are the same sort who would support Warren. Oh, the funny thing, tho. Clinton won re-election IN SPITE OF all the crap the right wing threw against him - because people in this nation do not like it when the govt tries to take up residence in their bedrooms and judge their fitness for office based upon who they sleep with.

So you are pointing that knife at the wrong group.

If people here think they are going to squelch any criticism of the Obama administration by blaming liberals for the crimes of the right wing, then you are going to find the midterms will not be the love fest you'd like. The democrats should keep this in mind. There are powerful fundraising options available now to fund opposition candidates in primaries of those who claim they represent liberals but then turn around and stab THEM in the back.

[Sentath]

111. Scalpels have blades too

perhaps the blade is seeking to excise the tumor before it hits the national bloodstream and metastasizes?

[roody]

16. I was sad when the Kings rolled over for Bush, more than once.

[No Elephants]

37. It's sadder if they just rolled over for Obama.

[superconnected]

18. Darn. At a time when Gay rights really really need to be upheld because they're going backwards

I have so much hope for Obama. He made a bad decision on this one.

[caseymoz]

20. I think the sign here is . . .

That the old African American Churches who championed the original Civil Rights' Movement are joining with conservative churches to hang Gays & Lesbians out to dry. There's no coincidence here, Obama had to know what he was doing, and he probably had wind of what was going to follow.

A sad setback for GBLTs.

[PFunk]

22. If this is true then I see a backlash comming for the entire black community over this.

Something that may allow the repugs to get back into power sooner. And give us a more divisive, intollerant socility. Not good folks.

[davidinalameda]

24. the repugs are dead

we'll just have more democrats who will more than happy to kick the GLBT community to the curb

[Karenina]

57. Just after you kick those who suffer the same discrimination as you do

to the curb, in the face and up the ass with your sharp stiletto heel.

[davidinalameda]

99. no one suffers the same discrimination that the GLBT community does

and you know what you can do with my sharp stiletto heel

[Karenina]

113. Here's what I don't get Dwickham

The POV of so many of your posts seems to discount non-whites, completely excluding them from the GLBT community, rendering them invisible except when they can be used as a target. I. JUST. DON'T. UNDERSTAND. Whether the discrimination is "the same" is irrelevant. The REAL ISSUE is that it's ALL DESTRUCTIVE, COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE and incredibly PAINFUL.

[No Elephants]

126. Are you addressing that to members of the African American community or to members of the

GLBT community? As far as I can tell, neither are being especially good to the other right now. Shouldn't the message to both communities be that they and their supporters should ALL be joining together to fight discrimination against anyone?

[caseymoz]

98. In hindsight, none of this is surprising.

Look at Obama's denomination: African Methodist Episcopal Church, and realize that the Reverend Wright is not enlightened at all when it comes to GLB&T. Furthermore Anybody who knows anything about black culture in America, knows that it's not sympathetic to the GLB&T civil rights movement at all, no quite the opposite. Realize that a vast majority of Black churches and ministers have the same moral objections to homosexuality that White televangelists make their bread on. Many Black Churches worked to pass Proposition 8.

Now, since Obama probably lacks any objections to Warren's anti-GLB&T stances, we might also have expected that Obama needed to show proof of his Christianity to White (racist) persons who considered the African Methodist Episcopal Church to be a pseudo-Christian facade for the Black Nationalist movement controlled by Islam. Therefore, he chose Warren, who agrees with Obama on matters of economic justice.

Obama was never destined to be a champion of GLB&T rights. It's an extreme disappointment.

[No Elephants]

123. There are a few steps between being a champion of GLBT rights and placing the

Presidential seal of approval on a pastor who does not allow them to become members of his church unless they given up sex and romantic love entirely or marry a beard.

[No Elephants]

38. If Obama helps join them against GLBTs, ALL , Democrats will suffer. If even more African

Americans get co-opted by the religious right and the GLBT community is abandoned to the far left (think Green--and not in a good way}, Democrats are not going to be winning many elections in a many parts of the country. Just when it looked as though the Republican party might be going down for the count.

[No Elephants]

122. It can backfire. The more African Americans join with the religious right, the

more they may vote with them, too. That has been happening for at least the last decade, if not more. And the more Democrats kiss up to the condemning religious right, the more members of the GLBT community may vote Green. That has been happening since at least DOMA and "Don't ask, don't tell." Contemplete where those things will leave the Democratic Party?

Democrats should be very careful not to fuel either of those trends. However, Obama may be fueling both, while thinking he is going to bring the religious right along to him.

[yurbud]

23. someone needs to catch this guy with a gay hooker SOON.

[EFerrari]

26. Or using the n word or otherwise signaling to his "congregation"

that he is one of them.

[No Elephants]

39. Which guy? Obama, MLK III or Warren?

[yurbud]

59. If Obama had that issue, Hillary or the GOP would have brought it to light by now

[roody]

55. Maybe food is his only vice.

[pipoman]

27. Every time I see the name of Warren's church

I think of Brokeback Cowboys for some reason..

[No Elephants]

41. Me, too. For the first second, I think the name of the movie was Saddleback Mountain.

[No Elephants]

29. I wonder if Obama called MlK III and requested this, to help diffuse the heat Obama was

taking over the Inaugural invitation. If so, what a shame. Obama was last year's speaker and one of the things he said was that gay rights were civil rights.

In any event, the Inaugural invitation was a gut-wrinching blow and this is right behind it.

Disappointing, offensive and sad, sad, sad.

I hope gays in Atlanta picket and people in D.C. boo LOUDLY.

[Zhade]

36. Me too, but ONLY while Warren is speaking.

NT!

[Algorem]

32. who does he pay off?

he's just another chubby con man

[No Elephants]

42. His church alone reportedly has 22,000 voters. And millions of readers think

he's great. I don't think he put his more extreme views into his books, though. I'll never buy them, so I'll never know for certain, I guess.

[Ian David]

43. At least one of the King kids is anti-gay, but I forget which one. n/t

[HopeHoops]

48. It must be some sort of sick irony, but every time I see "Saddleback", my mind reads "Brokeback"

It would be so sweet if Rick Warren were to get that connection stuck in his head like the theme song from Gilligan's Island ;} Merry Christmas Rick!

[nc4bo]

50. .

My momma always said if I had nothing nice to say, say nothing at all.

[Doctor_J]

51. Have Bob Herbert, Eugene Rosinson, etc. weighed in on the Inaugural thing?

[robcon]

52. It's Obama asking the King center to provide cover, IMO.

n/t

[LeFleur1]

54. It Seems

It often seems that once people get THEIR rights under the law, they turn on others and become fighters against equal rights for ALL.
What human condition causes that do you suppose?

It is most disgusting that in America someone like this man, who intentionally disregards the rights of SOME of "God's Children" could become accepted by the mainstream. There is something dirty deep down in the soul of our country.

[No Elephants]

124. I don't know. Jews supported African Americans civil rights very strongly until the two

groups clashed in Brooklyn over public schools. Jews technically already had their rights under law, but they were a group that was discriminated against. Then again, African Americans technically already had their rights under law, too.

This is a very bad distraction, folks. We should all be afighting together against discrimination, no matter whether the target of discrimination is gays or some other minority. This is not Pollyanna. Just do the math.

Usually, the oppressed are the ones with numbers on their side. Few things are better for oppressors than to have the oppressed fighting each other instead of joining together to fight the oppressors. Please do not let them divide us to their advantage.

Everyone should be agreeing that Obama made a mistake and deciding what to do next to make sure everyone has equal rights.

[KamaAina]

56. The King who said "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"?!

That whirring sound you hear is MLK spinning in his grave!

[Truth Teller]

62. Rick Warren to be main speaker at Ebenezer on King Day

Source: AJC

The Rev. Rick Warren will be the featured speaker at the Martin Luther King Jr. Commemorative Service in Atlanta the day before he gives the invocation at President-elect Barack Obama’s inauguration.

The 10 a.m. service at Ebenezer Baptist Church on Jan. 19 is the highlight of nearly more than a week of events to fete Atlanta’s famous son.

Warren, a Southern Baptist, pastors the 20,000-member Saddleback Church in Southern California and wrote the best-selling “The Purpose Driven Life.” During the presidential campaign he hosted a nationally televised talk on values with Obama and his opponent, Republican U.S. Sen. John McCain.

Warren opposes same-sex marriage and abortion rights, and Obama’s decision to have him give the inaugural invocation has drawn criticism from some liberal groups and gay rights activists.



Read more: http://www.ajc.com/services/content/metro/atlanta/stori...

---

Now we see how his selection for the Inagural invocation is so damaging. It gives him more credibility and acceptance that he doesn't deserve.

[TomInTib]

63. I wonder what his fee is.

I really wonder. It must be stratospheric.

[Captain Hilts]

64. King's daughter campaigned FOR Proposition 8. nt

[Truth Teller]

65. Damn

I am sorry to hear that.

[ronnykmarshall]

66. No shit??

I didn't know that.

[KamaAina]

70. Ouch.

I guess she wasn't listening when her Dad said "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.". "eyes:

[dbackjon]

79. And Coretta Scott King was for full gay rights equality

King's daughter dishonors her parents name.

[Captain Hilts]

89. Yes, she does. Not the first famous offspring to do that. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. Yes, yes. It's all Obama's fault.

It's not like Warren every had high profile speaking engagements before the Obama invite, at places like the World Economic Forum, Harvard, or the United fucking Nations.

[Truth Teller]

69. An unfortunate side effect of Obama's putrid selection

He lent Warren credibility and raised his profile. Warren's future "accomplishments" can be partly attributed to Obaba's selecting him.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

71. I blame Melissa Etheridge.

It's totally her fault.

[EFerrari]

90. She is pitching a new CD. That's probably more real to her right now

than how most people live. Yeah, she bears some of the blame now for participating in this bullshit so casually.

[EFerrari]

78. If Obama had nothing to gain from it, he would have chosen someone else.

Please.

Yes, this maggot was already a maggot. Now he'll be a better known maggot.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. Yeah, yeah.

And if some dead-enders didn't have something to gain from it, they wouldn't be throwing such a fit.

[EFerrari]

87. That may be a little true, granted. But not in the main.

And objecting to this travesty, this hater giving an invocation, seems pretty sane to me.

[Truth Teller]

92. Strikes me as strange

that some seem to lash back at those that object to Warren being promoted by Obama and now this.

It seems that, as progressives, we could all agree any stage given this creep is a mistake.

[QC]

114. Not everybody here is a progressive.

Some are centrists, not a few are sockpuppets and trolls, and a good many are devotees who will defend their favorite politician no matter what he might do, eating babies included.

[No Elephants]

127. I am a centrist who is very pro-gay marriage. Being a centrist does not equal being a bigot.

[No Elephants]

130. You mean, like gaining their own equal rights? You put that in the same class with pandering for

sales or votes?

[No Elephants]

125. STRAW MAN. The issue is having a Democratic, African American POTUS give the biggest honor he

can give a clergyman to the likes of Rick Warren.

Do you agree with Obama's choice? If so, defend it with sound facts. If not, why are you trying to defend it all, especially with fake issues?

[nc4bo]

68. Man fuck this shit. Why is this bastard being blended into mainstream democracy?

Just nevermind, don't answer - I can read well enough.

[ryanmuegge]

82. Mainstream oligarchy, you mean.

[Baby Snooks]

72. One big happy family...

The African-American community has embraced white Christian fundamentalist America and so they are now to be fully embraced by white Christian fundamentalist America. Fully forgetting that they were once lynched, often brutally, by white Christian fundamentalist America. And may be again at some point. Free at last? Hardly. Hatred of other people doesn't free you at all. Martin Luther King is turning in his grave.

[Obamalution]

75. Oh...my goodness...

First of all, I'll disclose that I am a straight man...with gay friends...who agree with me that the corporate media is using this Rick Warren crap as a weapon of mass distraction...and a weapon of mass division (within the democratic party). So far, with the help of supposedly progressive tv and radio show hosts, they are succeeding in dividing the democratic party on this worthless wedge issue. What's progressive about division of the people?... It's an oxymoronic question. By the way, I know that this is the innauguration we're talking about here, but nevertheless it is still symbolic... It's not like Obama is hiring Rick Warren into his administration or anything close to it. I wonder why no one is talking about gay-FRIENDLY Joseph Lowery giving the benediction... It's because the corporate media doesn't WANT that to distract us from their weapon of mass distraction. Thank you.

[Truth Teller]

76. So that like offsets having a homphobe give the invocation?

Nope.

[QC]

115. People seem to think it's like math: 1 + -1 = 0, so it's a wash. n/t

[Baby Snooks]

77. Why not Jeremiah Wright?

You remember him. Barack Obama's minister. Who spoke TRUTH albeit politically incorrect truth. Politically disadvantageous truth. About the war. About this country. About this administration.

[truth2power]

97. I agree. Obama didn't have the stones

to stand up for Jeremiah Wright. Now he's all courageous and "reaching out" to Warren.

I believe I'm in the minority in having listened to Wright's "Goddamn America" sermon in its entirety. I think I know what he was trying to say, and I found nothing of substance to disagree with.

Every time I start reading these threads about Warren, what comes to mind is the last line in that fable, "You knew I was a crocodile when you asked me to carry you across the river." You've all heard it. It's been posted here.

In my view, there's no point in getting into a pissing match about the Warren choice. What's done is done. I don't see Obama going back on his decision, unfortunately.

But I predict that he (Obama) will come to rue the day he gave that croc...er man a forum. If I'm wrong, I'll come back here and say so.

[No Elephants]

132. I think--HOPE--that Obama already rues it. But, he is not backing down. To

the contrary, he makes things worse with a highly disingenuous defense of his choice of Warren. And, sadly, I think he may have asked MLK III to help him diffuse this controverssy by inviting Warren too.

[AlbertCat]

96. We're not distracted or divided

No one is hopelessly incapacitated by their outrage at such a poor insensitive choice by Obama. It needs to be pointed out and it is. It's not dividing the party toward its peril. The days of just parading down main streets dressed in glitter and leather to get noticed are over. Think about us too, when you make a decision, Barack. We live here too...and vote....for you.

Also, why are we kowtowing to the Right again? Out of all the religious figures in the USA this is the best that can be done? There's no one more moderate? No one who represents the type of inclusion that Obama seems to want to initiate that is Dem? It's the Dems legitimizing the part of the Right that is divisive and, frankly, not very trustworthy.....again!

[No Elephants]

129. Each and all of your points have been blown away on many other threads. I don't know if

anyone has the motivation or patience to repeat them all on this thread, though.

Meanwhile, don't cite some of your best friends who are gay to try to support your positions. That is not persuading anyone, only embarrassing you. Not a single gay poster here has agreed with you. Not a one. When "men annointed by God" preach sermons calling you an abomination bc of the way that you were born, get back to us.

[ecstatic]

103. uggh. go away with that nonsense! nt

[Roland99]

73. The Purpose Driven Life? Is that like that Osteen's feel-good type book?

Worthless CRAP that feeds off the brain-dead sheep that lap that crap up.

[Baby Snooks]

74. They've been embraced by him as well..

Joel Osteen appeals to the African-American community as well. He particularly appeals to their pocketbooks. The African-American community has embraced those who traditionally refused to embrace them. And every time one of the says "I am a Christian and I do not approve of homosexuality" they disgrace the memory of Martin Luther King. They are just mimicing what the white Christian fundamentalists have said believing that by doing so they become white as well as fundamentalist Christians. My answer to one who told me that was that I was a Christian too and believed in the Curse of Ham so what she approved of didn't matter to me at all. Disgusting lot all of them. And sorry if some object to that but it's not racist. It's reality.

[Yes We Did]

85. Please tell me you are not trying to compare the two of them...

They are not even close on that one. I was reading he doesn't think his business to discuss it, and that he believes "all people should know that God is here for them"

It was enough to piss off Southern Baptist Seminary President who chided him and said he needed to be more judgmental.

No, Olsteen isn't perfect, but he is NOT Warren.

[Baby Snooks]

91. You apparently haven't encountered a member of his church...

They all use the line "I am a Christian and do not approve of homosexuality." They also believe victims of domestic abuse/violence should "work it out" through spiritual counseling. If there is an Anti-Christ he obviously has been cloned. They probably have a "pray the gay away" program at Lakewood as well. Joel Osteen is just smart not to talk about it the way Kirbyjohn Caldwell did and the way Rick Warren did.

Looking at the mess this country has become I can understand why the Bolsheviks not only murdered all the Romanoffs but closed down all the churches. The churches had become the tool of the Romanoffs.

[No Elephants]

131. Jesus says not to be judgmental at all, but the Southern Baptist Seminary President says

Osteen needs to be more judgmental (read, "condemning.") Then people condemn Jesus for things like that.

What could possibly be wrong with those pictures?

[pattmarty]

80. This is the first time that I have opined on this particular point.........

.......and am only going to say that on this choice, and Obama's Cabinet picks I am holding off until after the inauguration. My belief and HOPE is that he is trying to consolidate as much support behind him as he can get to get a progressive agenda through both Houses. I think by May or June WE ALL will have an idea of how he will govern and especially how EFFECTIVE he will be as President. Until then, keeping my fingers crossed.

[Truth Teller]

94. That rationale doesn't make sense to me

If Obama does things like promote Warren, he'll get more conservative support on union card-check legislation, or something?

[No Elephants]

133. I don't have to wait a year to conclude this choice was a mistake. And you

don't have to invite Warren to givve the invocation in order to try to consolidate support behind you. You can have a moderate give the invocation and still continue to work on the Warren types, which Obama has been doing right along. The two are not inseparable. Besides, Obama is likelier to lose GLBTs and their supporters with this than he is to gain Bible thumpers. I can see uniting the far religious right whites and the African American religious right with Obama doing things like this, too, So it could backfire.

IMO, do what's right. Snything else backfires, whether sooner or later.

[treestar]

81. Feminists - we have to start 3000 threads on DU stating we're

abandoning Obama because he picked Warren who opposes abortion rights.

Man, are we far behind!

[Captain Hilts]

88. Well, he side-stepped the abortion debate in Illinois. nt

[Truth Teller]

93. We'd be perfectly justified

in doing a lot of threads on that!

[No Elephants]

134. Posts like this are what leads to one group going against the other, saying

"My discrimination is worse than yours." Would it be amiss if I said now that women have always had the right to marry and preachers in this country are not causing parents to shun their daughter bc they were born female or bc they marry men?

Women can refrain from having an abortion. Members of the LBGT community cannot refrain from being born with the orientation with which they were born.

Lest there be any doubts about my motives, I am a hetero female who is both pro-choice and pro-same gender marriage. I may be slightly more pro-same gender marriage, though, because the issues are clearer to me.

[ryanmuegge]

83. He would have been calling for King to be lynched if this was 1968

[RedCloud]

84. We shall overcome.

This guy needs to get out of the most undeserved spotlight he is getting.

[cloudythescribbler]

95. I just wrote a rather sharp piece on LGBTQ movt insensitivity toward African-Americans; well ...

here's an example of the converse(?)/obverse(?)/inverse(?), well, whatever.

Here's the URL of the other thing

*sigh*

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

It's as if someone were ordering the authentic progressive left to self-destruct

[ecstatic]

104. One church doesn't represent all of black america

I bet 99% of the blacks you encounter won't even know about this until you tell them.

[newspeak]

100. I just watched the Rachel Maddow Show

and Pollitt from the Nation was on and stated it's not just his views on gays--Warren also believes that domestic abuse is not a reason for divorce--that is totally fekked--it reminds me of my mother being tortured by my step-father, going to the priest for help--he told her to pray and forgive him!!! Pollitt also stated that he believes that wives are to subjugate themselves to their husbands. As a woman, I am totally insulted by Obama's choice--Warren does not speak for nor represent even half of the populace!!!!

[Critters2]

112. Warren holds to all the positions of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Including anti-gay views, and the nonsense about women being submissive to their husbands. He's a typical Southern Baptist minister in this. What I can't get is how his church is so huge. Why do so many women buy this crap?!

[No Elephants]

128. Because they couch it in terms of men treating women like Jesus treats his bride, the Church. Neo

theos, male or female, do not want to be anti-God in any way. Fact is, if Jesus is omnipotent, then his Church as no power against him whatever. In theory, it does not need to have power against him because he treats his Church so lovingly. However, mortal men are neither all-knowing nor all-powerful. Even if you buy all the other things that the neo theos teach, you have to conclude that submitting totally to mortal men is really nothing like submitting totally to God.

[No Elephants]

135. Believing only one morally bankrupt thing and being morally correct on everything

else would be unusual, IMO.

[ecstatic]

102. huh? What the hell is going on? Warren is not welcome

in this town! But how do you know that Obama picked Warren first?

[marshall]

136. Bernice must have invited him

She's rabidly anti-gay marriage, and in league with one brother to sue the other brother. There is a fight behind the scenes. I'm not sure where the other sister falls in the mix.