Mumbai rocked by deadly shootings

Source: BBC

Gunmen have opened fire at a number of sites in the Indian city of Mumbai (Bombay), killing at least two people.

Police said the shootings appeared to be terrorist attacks.

A number of people were reported injured when gunmen opened fire in a train station and at a restaurant popular with tourists.

Shootings were also reported in other parts of the city near two hotels and a hospital. At least two suspected grenade attacks were reported.

Sajjad Karim, an MEP for the North West of England who is in Mumbai, told the BBC he had seen a gunman opening fire in the lobby of Taj Mahal Palace Hotel.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7751160.stm

---

MSNBC is running this full time now. I didn't see anything but airline travel on CNN.

probably just a few really creative and talented software developers who went postal due to working under the wrong metrics of statistical process control...

sarcasmo

They do not have an version of the CIA.. But the Indian security service is very closed up into the British intelligence system.. And the system is in many cases similar to the british system. Even than after more than 60 year, it have been a lot more Indian than british... You know, the british had more than 400 year in India, and it show in the intelligence system...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad English, not my native language

I'm sure Pakistan has their own version of the CIA

I'm sure they wouldn't know anything about these current proceedings.

Any opinion either way ?

ohio2007

The Pakistani intelligence service is indeed a similar system as the CIA.. The infamous ISI, who is claimed to be party supporting the extremist both in Pakistan and also in India. And who is claimed to be loosely supportive of mr Bin Laden and Taliban, who they set up working in Afghanistan in the 1990s.. In fact, if you want to follow the dots you would be surprised where you are been led... And in many cases the ISI footprint are all over it sometimes..

I do not know.. But I have a feeling that some elements inside the ISI very vell know who this attackers is, and if not supportive of it, never was thinking seriously about fighting them.. Pakistan and India have after all been in fighting each other both by arms and by other means for more than 60 year now.. And if Pakistan's ISI should manage to hit back on India for some reason or another, withouts the problem of been proven as the attacker, so much better.. Parts of the ISI are ruling their own affairs, and are not in control by the government.. Some of ISI is so secretive that the pakistani government probley do not know if they exist.. Even the US CIA are not _that_ secretive.. And the CIA have had some pretty ugly past when it came to how the government had the power over CIA..

I do not know if this extremist can be linked to the pakistani government or more to the point to the security apparatus ISI. But as pointed before, parts of ISI are not under government hand and control, and have in many cases lived their own lives, and made their own missions.. Maybe this is something like that?.. Or maybe it is just some indians who was pissed off, and want to hit back to some "in Justice" they believe they have been treated for?.. To be honest I do not know.. But if a unknown extremist group just happened to hit that hard against tourist hotels, and is specific going after british and americans tourist, something is very wrong.. It is not random that just americans and the british have been targeted, and that the rest is not been attacked.. Some is playing this game, and some is behind it all.. Some says it is Al-Qauda who are attaching this sites.. Some claim it to be groups who support Al-Qauda and other groups as the Taliban and such.. Again I do not know.. But it is in the same league as they are working in... We will maybe never really know who is behind this, because I really doubt this type of groups is just given up, but will rather fight to the end, and take as many enemies with them as possible.. If the indian security service is to get one or more into custody.... Then at least the intelligence system Will know a little more.. BUT i DOUBT that this group will give up, or be maimed so they can be arrested.. This type of groups is going down.. In flames with no survivors...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

I think we both understand the tightrope Musharraf walked with the post 9/11 attacks reigning in the ISI operations in Afghanistan and the ISI was not pleased by the western arm twisting. Due to the attack in 2002 on India's Parliament building, Kashmir separatists ( some say they are under the control of the ISI )almost pulled off a nuclear war between India and Pakistan. Musharraf cut a deal for big $$ in order to prevent a war between India and Pakistan in 2002 and an agreement to "clamp down" on terrorism in his own country.Again, meaning clamp down on the ISI
All bets are off as Bush and Musharraf era comes to a close.
But the ISI is still intact as the new Pakistan government has to come to terms with what has spiraled out of their control.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/20080...
The current leadership is not a Musharraf strongman and when they sent a "peace delegation" into the frontier to "talk peace with the Taliban,
well, they had their throats cut.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/26/world/asia/26pstan.ht...

No respect for anything but brute superior force.
And in your own words " parts of ISI are not under government control "
ISI also receives covert funding from an oil rich fundamentalist state. Some of the funding is used to 'educate' the children and keeping the red mosque operating in the black
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=552_1201538050
but the game has changed.

Musharraf and Bush are gone.

How strong are the new players? I would suspect when the dust settles, the sabers will be rattling in Indian Parliament for action soon. The fingers will be pointing at the usual suspects.

ohio2007

We are in agreement that ISI are one big bad player when it coming to how the extremists is given help, the equipment and in some cases also help from elements inside the ISI. It is many who have been pointed finger into the closest elements of ISI.. The former coup general Musharaff (who Jr cant even name when asked in 2000) trow out the former head of ISI, because he was misusing the security system to further extremists gain in the frontier provinces... And in many cases the ISI have been known to be very helpfully when it came to homegrown extremists.. Some claim that parts of ISI indeed are infiltrated by the extremist, and that some part of the organization is indeed outside the governments control. Who is ALWAYS a danger because the system have all the STATEs power, but not the responsibility. It is a reason that in many other country the Security apparatus, is very strict controlled..

True, the arm wrestling that Musharaff was been handled in 2001, when he very un politely was given the choice of siding with mr Bush, or feel the wrath of the same person was something that was not just an insult to Pakistan, but also to Musharaff himself I believe.. And I believe mr Musharaff in the weeks, and years after that call he was given at 5 in the morning was something he really regret taking.. He should just have told that he would take the phone in the morning.. And then worked with his cabinet to give President George Walker Bush a far better answer in a day or two's time.. The phone he was given was very clear, either you are here to get the terrorist killed, or I will bomb you.. You do not do that to a country who happened to have nuclear weapon on their own.. Even that Pakistan probely have not the same missiles and mutch other things that the US have, they ARE still a nuclear country.. And as such not something to just play around at will...

After Musharaff I do belive, as you pointed out everything is off to bet on.. The new pakistani government are NOT that steady as the former regime of mr Musharaff.. It looks rather that the new government are typical for Pakistan, civilian government's tend to fight them selfs and other more than they manage to work to make the country little better than it was before. The corruptions, and let say it, criminal behavior from the top of down to the lowest civil servants is just staggering compared to other country... In every level you have some of the same problems, corruption and outright criminal behavior.. And sad to say, the military ruler Musharaff have not managed to get this under control. Even that he worked hard to to this..

The Talibans is another scary thing to work with in Pakistan, because the Taliban sees to have a lot of sympathy from many segments of the populations.. Not just the dirt poor, but also some parts of the middle classes seen to have a Little "love affair" with the Taliban, and many organizations, who is sympathetic to the Taliban, and give them both shelter when needed, food when needed and money when the Taliban have to get something have support from many parts of the country.. Some Mosques, are indeed the hallmark of exactly, you guessed it, the Taliban.. And the fact is that we do have another twist to the Story here.. The Saudi-Arabian are using a Los of their money to build up extremist schools, and are indeed helping making thousands of angry "holly warriors" to fight Taliban, or other extremists who is fidgeting the "good war" against the west.. The Saudi-Arabian connection, to both the Taliban, and other extremist groups, like Al-Qauda is many, and dangerous to follow to the end.. Osama Bin Laden are an Saudi-Arabian, and have lot of sympathy, into the royal house of the Saudi Kingdom. Something that very seldom is pointed out, when talking about the subject.. After 9/11 2001, a few member of the house of Saud was getting stooped in the Frankfurt pass control, and it was discovered more than 8 million US dollar, who the government in Germany should ended in some extremist mosque, and maybe even to extremist groups who are known to use violence both in France and in the UK.. Because of the "immunity" the members had, the german police could not arrest them, but they could ask them to leave the country in 24 hours . Who they did, and as I know it, never came back to Germany...

Some oil rich country are indeed founding the caps, madras's who are "education" the kids.. TO be holly warriors no less.. The main subject is to learn the Koran by heart, in arabic, a language for the most part muslims do not know well, or have some knowledge over. The kids learn their Koran, but they do not learn other subjects, like Math, geography and such. No Civil law classes there..

IN 2009 a whole new game is setting up to play, and we have not clue how it could end. It could end bad, and it could end good.. I do not know, but it doesn't look to good in my crystal scull.. As you have pointed out, both India and Pakistan have been at the brink of war, a nuclear war it was. But it was stooped because US bribed the Pakistanis to stand down from their posture (it was over Kashmir wasn't it?) But how long can United States bribe the pakistani government with money?. As I know it US have their own problem with money and think like that, and are in no position to bribe others to do their will..

What I fear is that a regional war, in Pakistan, a civil war would excellent out of control. This is an country who are far from safe in best of times. And if social unrest is tearing the country apart we have no clue what happened next.. And Pakistan HAVE nuclear weapon, and have show the willingness to export this devils weapons to other parts of the world.. Both North Korea and Libya get a lot of their know how from Pakistan.. And if the country is breaking up we have not reason to believe that the "right" government in Pakistan will get the hand, and the codes to lunch the missiles.. Not by a long shoot.. I read once a book about this and even that they managed to get the control codes there, in the neck of time. It is no reason to automatic believe that in the real life, the "right" government Will get hand of the security software to look out everyone else.. And in any cases a missile can be tearn down, even if it means you have to work with it for many months.. And if you get yourself nuclear weapons grade, you can easy build your own Little device to blow up your enemies.. And Pakistan and India have been at ods with them self since 1947..

The Indian Parliament Will with no doubt in my mind when this is over ask for actions.. To stop the terrorism who have been attacking the country, and who have killed so many tourists. It takes many, many year to build up a tourist industry, it takes just a rumor to break it.. And the pictures on BBC, and CNN have definitely damaged India as an tourist place.
And compared to Pakistan, India ARE an superpower..They do have better nuclear weapons, they do have a far better equipment army, and have a lot more weapon to attack Pakistan if the order ever got there... But of course India can't go into a war footing to soon, and hopefully in the meantime the indian Parliament would be little cool headed to get a war with Pakistan - who after all HAVE nuclear weapons... But even without the nuclear options, the government in Pakistan, and more to the point the military KNOW that if all hells broke out, and the finger pointing is going into Islamabad.. Then they know they might have a chance in hell, as a snow ball might have to survive.. India is bigger, and have a lot larger army than Pakistan have.. But if it is in India's interest to occupy a country who doesn't want to be part of India is maybe an another case. I doubt it is worth the price...

I believe we are living in very intersting time.. Even if we just managed to keep a aye on the most important thing, we could be into some very interesting 12 months ahead.. In Pakistan, India and in the Central Asian parts of the world.. Scary absolutely, but yes intersting..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Fatal shootings in India's financial hub of Mumbai appear to be a terrorist attack, a senior police office said on Wednesday.

...

At least two people have died and 10 have been wounded.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4AP6PI200...

16 dead and 50 wounded...so far.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com /

Glad my daughter is back home.

Dear God.

south of Mumbai, but she spent a lot
of time in Mumbai.

She has eaten in Leopold's.

She is at the airport picking up some of her
exchange friends that are spending Thanksgiving
with us, so this will be very much on their minds.

but her mother in law has been receiving cancer treatment in Mumbai.

executions


I could be wrong

This indeed is not good.

Times of India says up to 80 may have been killed; some reports say hostages may have been taken

On now.

hostages at 2 major hotel. American and British passport holders were taken to top floors. This is getting really bad, really fast.

Scores reportedly killed in Mumbai attacks

By John Letzing, MarketWatch
Last update: 2:39 p.m. EST Nov. 26, 2008Comments: 23SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) - A series of coordinated bomb and gun attacks in Mumbai, India have claimed dozens of lives while sowing chaos and confusion in the country's financial capital, according to media reports Wednesday.

The online edition of the Times of India reported that at least 80 people have been killed and 250 injured in the attacks, which occurred in seven locations including Mumbai's crowded CST railway station.

CNN reported that gunmen are reportedly holed up in the city's swanky Taj hotel and Oberoi hotel, and are locked into gun battles with police. There have been five "shootouts and two grenade attacks," according to CNN.
Additional attacks were reported at Cama Hospital, CNN reported.

The online edition of The Wall Street Journal quoted Mumbai police commissioner A.N. Roy as saying the police are treating the attackers as terrorists who "opened fire indiscriminately."

more:http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Scores-reportedly...

more:
A series of shootings and bomb blasts at luxury hotels and bars in the south of the city hit at least nine locations. Security sources said “a major terror attack” was unfolding amid reports that foreigners had been taken hostage in one hotel.

Shootings were reported in the lobby of the five-star Taj Mahal Palace hotel in the Colaba area of south Bombay and at the nearby Leopolds bar, a popular destination with western backpackers. Witnesses described pools of blood and bullet scarred walls at both locations.

A witness at the hotel told a local television station: “They wanted anyone with British or American passports.

It was feared that the death toll could rise significantly.

Nearby, witnesses described a “high intensity” bomb blast at the Oberoi hotel, also in the south of the city, a regular meeting place for businessmen and wealthy tourists. Paramilitary forces were readying to storm the tower-block building, one of Bombay’s best-known landmarks as smoke continued to pour from the hotel lobby amid fears that hostages were being held by gunmen inside.

more:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/articl...

It seems now that many other sites in the city have also been attacked. The attacks are still continuing even though more than 2 hours have passed since the initial attacks. There were reports that at least one of the Indian terrorist organizations affiliated with Al Qaeda is involved. Westerners seem to be the main target.

are they affiliated with Al Qaeda? ... I ve never of this group before ..

"Deccan" is a word that means "south"
it is frequently used in regards to Maharashtra State.

probably wholly unassociated with Al Q. I thought only Americans made such rash assumptions. The Hindus and Muslims have been at each others throats there since the year dot.

Until AFP released the bit at the Deccans the Indian authorities had said it was equally likely that either religious group could be responible

Some details of the group here :
http://www.deccanherald.com/CONTENT/Sep152008/scroll200...

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

just caught my eye

I find it disgusting that you've chosen this place to post that.

Mumbai's Head Terrorism Chief HIMSELF was killed.

HOLY Shit.

he would've been out of a job anyway

Would you say the same about our troops? Did they drop the ball? I don't think so.

But then again I don't have a hard-on for cops and soldiers. Do you?

- TV

http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-3672102...

An organisation calling itself the Deccan Mujahideen has claimed it was behind attacks in India's financial capital Mumbai that have left at least 80 people dead, television channels reported on Thursday.

The previously unknown or little known group sent an email to news organisations claiming responsibility.

India has suffered a wave of bomb attacks in recent years. Most have been blamed on Islamist militants, although police have also arrested suspected Hindu extremists thought to be behind some of the attacks.

It just squirted right out of his mouth like a runny poo.

Our media should be placed under a gag order. No more "news" "reporting" for those folks.

Ridiculous.

It sure sounds like an al-Qaeda attack to me. And I have zero doubt that this "Deccan Brotherhood" will turn out to have ties to al-Qaeda, if not be a complete offshoot of it.

bollocks without any foundation.

So everybody that jumped the gun and blamed Al Qaeda turned out to be fools.

"And I have zero doubt that this "Deccan Brotherhood" will turn out to have ties to al-Qaeda, if not be a complete offshoot of it."

When in doubt, keep digging the hole even deeper, eh?

Bombing? AL QAEDA!
Shooting? AL QAEDA!
Hostages? AL QAEDA!

Al Quaeda; shortening the list of synonyms for "terrorist" since 1993

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qissa_Khwani_bazaar_massac...

When you exploit a terrorist attack in a bigoted promotion of the supremacy of your religion, that's the least of what you deserve.

it's very difficult for me to explain -- but i certainly thank you for pointing out the foolish monstrosity that goes on with christians as well.

is unreasonable...at best. Look upthread. It's DU's typical knee-jerk response to any post on Islamic terrorism. And its aburd. Thus, I called out the abusrdity.

Gee, what do I really deserve? And how is posting my opinion some posters' typical response to such an attack "exploiting" it?

to blame Islam for any given act of terrorism.

And then pretend that Christianity is any better.

"Thus, I called out the abusrdity."

...to, any time there's an attack by radical Islamists, to equate it to Christian fundamentalists.

"Wow...al-Qaeda destroyed the WTC and attacked the Pentagon, killing 3,000 civilians. That's just like some fundy Christian setting off a home-made bomb at an abortion clinic in South Bumfuck in the middle of the night when it was empty. No difference at all."

Therefore they won't go around blaming religions for acts of terrorism.

If some freeper wants to bring up muslims killing 3,000 Americans on 9-11, we might bring up the fact that Americans have murdered 1.2 million muslims in Iraq. But only to point out how stupid such religious bigotry is.

You'll notice nobody brought up Christianity until somebody made disparaging marks against Islam.

And Christian fundamentalists are not "good" by any means. Many of them can be bigoted, close minded, and adverse to human rights and the constitution.

But Islamic fundamentalists are racking up a substantial body count around the globe, with today being no exception. Not to mention Sharia law makes the Dominionists look like libertarians.

So yes. Islam has FAR worse, and more dangerous, problems than Christianity. By FAR.

Keep trying though, it's amusing watching people struggle to equate the two.

But for all you knew when you posted in this thread it could have been Christians.

"So yes. Islam has FAR worse, and more dangerous, problems than Christianity. By FAR."

Tell it to the 1.2 million dead muslims in Iraq.

government and religious extremists killing in the name of their religion. THAT is the topic we are discussing in this thread.

For example, Saddam Hussein was a muslim yes? When he attacked Iran and committed atrocities against the Kurds, he was not doing so because of Islam. He was doing so because he was a greedy, power hungry, evil mother fucker. That violence, carried out by a muslim, was not an example of Islamic terrorism. Do you get it yet? Is this sinking in?

Now see George Bush, Christian, invading Iraq for oil and power. Which is a...you guessed it...secular purpose!!!

How many Iraqis have we forcibly converted to Christianity? How many churches have we built? Have we instilled "Christian Law"? Shoved the 10 commandments down the throats of the Iraqi people?

That's what I thought. It was a greed and power motivated invasion, old school. Which means it is outside the bounds of our little conversation on Religious extremists and the attacks they carry out.

Yet Bush claims God told him to do it.

"How many Iraqis have we forcibly converted to Christianity? How many churches have we built? Have we instilled "Christian Law"? Shoved the 10 commandments down the throats of the Iraqi people?"

You could make the same argument about Osama bin Laden, couldn't you?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1007-03.htm

I'll take that with a grain of salt. If Bush was some kind of closeted Crusader on a mission from Jesus to invade other countries, do you think he would tell that to a delegation of Palestinians? REALLY? That story smells to high hell.

Not worth much, but the White House denies the story. Could have helped him in the Bible Belt if he did say it though...

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/White_House_denies_that_God...

George Bush invaded Iraq for oil and power.

Interesting.

delegation. Makes sense to me!!!!

Never said the WH was credible. Far from it. But they are more believable than some no name Palestinian foreign minister.

Use logic and common sense. The story is absurd.

If he was quoted as saying that in front of a bunch of wealthy donors, or Bob Jones University, I might believe it.

If you don't have the answer to that question, I do. Let me know.

Are you saying that Iraqi people killed by American troops is christian fundamentalist killing Muslims. That is so ignorant I don't where to begin. The war in Iraq has nothing to do with Christians killing Muslims. It was ordered by Bush. Regardless of whether Bush is a christian or not is irrelevant. Bush didn't declare war on Iraq in the name of Christianity. Are you trying to say that America is nation of Christians and that what our military does is in affect done of out religious fundamentalism. Come on.

muslims.

Of course, one could argue that the Germans created the conditions in WWII for the French to kill large numbers of other French (the same in other European countries they conquered) and the Japanese the same in the Philippines and elsewhere in Asia. Other than targeted killing of collaborators, the resistance in those countries focused on attacking the invaders not on killing large numbers of their fellow conquered citizens.

They have massive internal problems, as they have had for thousands of years, which would exist whether or not there was Western involvement or not.

killing to the lack of same with the French and Filipinos under similar circumstances.

or blowing each other up, last I checked.

to say. Not only are the French not suicide bombing innocents now, they didn't do it during WWII.

anything Islamics wish to do on here quickly coming to the defense of Islam and reporting anyone that so much as says boo in protest.

attacks by Christian Fundamenalist and radicals that have taken place in the last 10 years.

But off the top of my head...

There's the shooting of Dr. Slepian in 1998.

The bombing death in Birmingham in 1998.

The abortion clinic arsons in 1999 and two in 2000.

The Tacoma abortion clinic bombing in 2001.

The guy who drove his car through an abortion clinic in 2006.

The failed abortion clinic bombing in 2007.

The anthrax attacks which likely came from a Christian.

Several abortion deaths in Canada within the last ten years.

The Olympics bombing was in 1996, so I guess that doesn't count.

The shooting of Sikh clerks after 9-11.

Ethnic cleansing during the Kosovo war.

The murder of Matthew Shepard.

The stonings of "witches" in Africa.

Massacres of Ugandans and sex slavery by the Lord's Resistance Army

And so on and so forth.

The Christian "Lords Resistance Army" has killed more people than Hama, Hezbollah, and Al Qaeda combined.

in order to fight bigotry, well then they've already won the argument.

What I was alluding to is DU's never ending quest to equate a very real and dangerous problem of Islamic extremists with Christian fundamentalists here in the United States. It's absurd. But "fundies" vote Republican, so let's just throw all reason and logic out the window right?

And yes, yes I know. Crusades from 500 years ago, abortion clinic bombings, Matthew Sheppard, etc etc. Same thing of course.

Heard it all before.

And that's not at all what happened in the link you posted. The two situations are not analogous by any reasonable standard. As I said before, try again.

Do you not understand the difference between imperial country with secular goals (greed and power)committing atrocities and religious extremists killing in the name of their religion?

They're two different situations entirely. Yet you and other DU'ers desperately try to equate them in a haphazard attempt to protect your skewed world view.

what are your thoughts on President Barack Hussein Obama?

DU's far left wackos start claiming he's a right wing hawk neo-con. Oops, that's already happening.

I'll be in DC for the inaguration. Will you be there? We should have a beer!!

What you wrote was EXACTLY the type of DU ridiculousness I was alluding to in my post.

Trying to compare Christian fundamentalist and Muslim extremists is absurd. And it happens every time somebody posts a story about some sort of terrorist attack. Without fail. I just beat you to the punch this time.

Please.

seriously, this is getting ridiculous here. this is about facts. of course violence by christian extremists is terrible, but the FACTS are that in scale and scope, attacks by Islamic extremists are in a whole other league, at this particular moment in history. That's not bigotry. It's not a slam on Islam. It's simply a factual statement.

with the greater likelihood that violent fundamentalists will be prosecuted here than they might be elsewhere?

religions. And the U.S. is hardly the only Christian majority country. Furthermore there are no countries where Christianity is fused directly into governance. There are quite a few Islamic countries where that is the case.

given the date for the beginnings of Islam as roughly 600 CE then that would make Islam about 1400 years old let's see I believe the 1400's were Christianities "golden age" what with every hereditary monarch in Europe beholden to the Vatican and a few crusades under the belt, not to mention a few witch hunts and inquisitions to "clean up" unbelievers.......yes a golden age indeed, but one just can not view Islam from that same context can one?

Last year.

And were both members of the Christian Fundamentalist group The Michigan Militia.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/jun/11/mcveigh.usa...

Nevertheless, McVeigh was raised a Catholic, ran with loony Christian fundamentalists, and was a practicing Catholic during his prison sentence.

Perhaps you should take McVeigh's claims witha grain of salt.

You're really off your game tonight Bornagin. This is kinda sad.

The standard boiler plate from McVeigh's Michigan Militia involved the standard fundamentalist Christian propaganda about "restoring" Christianity to the government, and so on.

Osama Bin Laden got his START as an international asshole because he was offended that infidels (US troops) were in the Muslim holy land of Saudi Arabia. His entire being is premised on his perverted strain of ISLAM. He is a terrorist killing in the name of his religion, just listen to one of his "greatest hits" tapes. Every other sentence is "jihad this", "allah that" or "martyr what".

I dare you to find me any evidence that McVeigh blew up that building with even a scintilla of religion as motivation. Go for it.

bin Laden wanted the U.S. government out of his homeland.

McVeigh wanted the same thing.