Barack Obama links Israel peace plan to 1967 borders deal

[oberliner]

Source: The Sunday Times

Barack Obama is to pursue an ambitious peace plan in the Middle East involving the recognition of Israel by the Arab world in exchange for its withdrawal to pre-1967 borders, according to sources close to America’s president-elect.

Obama intends to throw his support behind a 2002 Saudi peace initiative endorsed by the Arab League and backed by Tzipi Livni, the Israeli foreign minister and leader of the ruling Kadima party.

The proposal gives Israel an effective veto on the return of Arab refugees expelled in 1948 while requiring it to restore the Golan Heights to Syria and allow the Palestinians to establish a state capital in east Jerusalem.

On a visit to the Middle East last July, the president-elect said privately it would be “crazy” for Israel to refuse a deal that could “give them peace with the Muslim world”, according to a senior Obama adviser.

Read more: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east...

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Posted with this guideline in mind: If, however, the news item is primarily about U.S. policy in Israeli/Palestinian affairs, you may post it in the Latest Breaking News forum.

[rockymountaindem]

1. I think that might go over better with two modifications

The first being that the Golan Heights either stay with Israel or become completely demilitarized under UN observation. The second, and I don't know if this is already the case, Israel should keep control of the Old City of Jerusalem. Other than that, a deal like this is probably the best that both sides are going to get.

[oberliner]

3. I fear Jerusalem will be the sticking point

The Saudi Peace Plan calls for East Jerusalem to be the capital of the new Palestinian state.

It does not go into details as to what would become of the Old City.

[rockymountaindem]

6. I used to be opposed to dividing Jerusalem at all

but now I think that there's really no problem with it so long as Israel gets to keep the Old City. That is the spiritual heart of the Jewish people and Jewish nationalism. However, it seems to me now that we have no connection to some recently (a relative term in this context) constructed suburbs populated exclusively by Arabs.

[oberliner]

9. Seems to be where this is heading

Painful as it will be for both sides to see Jerusalem divided in that fashion, it seems like its the only compromise that could possibly resolve this conflict.

[aquart]

27. Why?

The holy cities of the Muslims are Mecca and Medina. Would they like to share them, as well?

[oberliner]

29. What do you think should happen with Jerusalem?

Don't you feel that the predominantly Arab East Jerusalem will end up part of a newly created Palestinian state?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[morillon]

21. Uhh, wow.

You are confusing tribal extremism with Islam. The Taliban were responsible for the destruction of the statues, and they are not representative of Islam. Neither is Osama bin Laden.

Spreading hate and disinformation is NOT helpful.

[asksam]

24. He does have a valid point, however...

... regarding the wall. When East Jerusalem was occupied by Jordan from 1948 to 1967, Jews were not allowed to visit the Wall, and just about every synagogue in East Jerusalem was torn down. When Israel captured the city in 1967, they went out of their way to make sure that Muslims have been allowed to pray at (and, have de facto control of) the Al-Asqua mosque.

I don't agree with much of what the Israelis did, but they do have a proven track record for the last forty years of allowing Muslim to have access to holy sites. If the city is divided, however, I fear that Jews will once again not be able to pray at the holiest site in the religion -- the Wall.

[Zhade]

51. Thank goodness that bigoted post was deleted.

The Taliban does NOT represent all Muslims. Not even close.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[High Plains]

25. A warmonger's prescription for perpetual war.

Hope you don't get your way.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[struggle4progress]

31. Th'Bamyan Buddhas date from th'6th century; th'region's been mainly Islamic since th'9th century

Gunpowder was available in the Islamic world as early as it was available in Europe, and from the late nineteenth century on, some modern military equipment was locally available

The fact, that the Buddhas were not destroyed earlier, indicates that for more than a thousand years, the Islamic population had little interest in destroying the Buddhas

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PDJane]

4. Israel has no right to the old city of Jerusalem,

nor to the Golan Heights.

The deal that they should get is behind the 1948 borders, with compensation to the Palestinians still living who were removed from their ancestral homes....and no more house demolitions.

[oberliner]

7. What is the difference between the 1948 borders and the 1967 borders?

When you say "get behind the 1948 borders" are you talking about the borders proposed in the 1947 UN Partition Plan or the borders that were established after the 1948 War?

If the latter, then how do they differ from the 1967 borders that the Saudi Peace Plan is referencing?

[dipsydoodle]

12. This appears to show the 1948 borders

http://palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_land_1948.php

[oberliner]

13. Yes, that is what they mean by the 1967 borders

The borders that existed before the 1967 War - which are indicated in the map you've provided.

Those are the "1967 borders" that the Saudi Peace Plan is referencing (i.e. the borders that existed from 1948 until 1967)

I'm not sure whether or not those are the borders that the previous poster had in mind.

[PDJane]

14. go here for a map of the borders:

http://www.nad-plo.org/maps/wall/pdf/killing.pdf

[oberliner]

15. Which borders would you be proposing?

It is still unclear to me what you meant by the "1948 borders."

Are you suggesting the map indicated under the proposed 1947 Partition Plan or the map indicated under the 1967 De Facto Line endorsed by the PLO in 1988?

Or are you proposing something else entirely, not indicated on the PLO website link you provided?

Neither the Arab League nor the Palestinian Authority nor Hamas has suggested implementation of the Partition Plan borders so I would be surprised if that is what you were talking about.

Can you clarify what you think the borders ought to be and how they differ from the borders being proposed by the Saudi Peace Plan?

[The Stranger]

65. The link he/she provided has a map labeled 1947 Partition Plan.

It is the second map from the left.

[oberliner]

69. Are those the borders that the poster is suggesting?

If so, I am not sure that I have ever heard of anyone on any side of this conflict suggesting implementation of the 1947 Partition Plan.

[Recursion]

10. Any talk of "right" to territory is a dealbreaker

Don't go there; remember the dominant Palestinian attitude is still that the Israelis are Europeans. Talking about who has "rights" to what gets people killed; let's concentrate on finding a deal both side's extremists can be forced to stomach.

[aquart]

26. Because the huge amount of land set aside for the Arabs wasn't enough for them?

The Golan Heights were used to shell down into Israel. If you were head of state, would you allow that to happen again?

But it's good to know you have your priorities. And it isn't with those nasty mean Jews.

Whatever happened to Transjordan?

[YankmeCrankme]

33. You mean the huge amount of land taken from the Palestinians, don't you?

Land wasn't set aside for Palestinians, it was set aside for, basically, European Jews. All the land was Arab before. A huge amount of land was taken from local Palestinians and given to, mostly, non-local non-Arabs. No matter where your preferences lie, let's not confuse what happened to who.

[oberliner]

34. Where did all those ancient Jewish holy sites come from?

I don't see how you can claim that "all the land was Arab before"

Non-local European Jews didn't build the Wailing Wall.

Had the Partition Plan been accepted, there would have been, for the first time in history, an independent Arab Palestinian state.

Things did not have to turn out the way that they did - there could have been two states living side by side at peace with one another from 1948 to the present day.

Let us hope there is not another 60 years of fighting, and instead, with President Obama's help we can finally see a peaceful resolution to the conflict.

[YankmeCrankme]

35. ancient is I think the key word.

Of course Jews lived there in numbers within their ancient kingdom. But, were talking a couple thousand years later. If you really can't grasp the difference it would be hard to resolve any legitimate issue in that area.

[oberliner]

38. I grasp the difference

The land has been ruled by many empires over many centuries. In the time immediately prior to the Partition Plan, the land was administered by the UK with neither the Arab population nor the Jewish population having an independent state in any portion of the territory.

The most important point, though, is that we have a chance for a two-state solution, and I hope that the US can lead the way in helping to make that happen.

What are your thoughts on the Saudi Peace Plan?

[YankmeCrankme]

45. Based on the outline points I've read it seems like a reasonable proposal. nt

[The Stranger]

67. Actually, Jerusalem was originally a pagan city dedicated to "Shalem" -- thus the name.

But hopefully everyone is on board with Peace delivered by a President named Obama.

[The Stranger]

66. I guess you're trying to get the thread locked because the Golan was always Syrian land, now occupie

d for over 40 years.

And the baiting of other posters with "those nasty mean Jews" is really sad to see here.

[leftynyc]

54. And reward the Palestinians

and their supporters for trying to destroy Israel? - Not Gonna Happen. And frankly, I can't take anyone who believes the way you do seriously.

[jrockford]

8. It doesn't need modification

It's leaning toward the Israeli's enough as it is...to be fair, it should go back to how it was in the 1940s.

[oberliner]

11. Re-establish a British protectorate?

What exactly are you proposing? Through most of the 1940's Britain administered the territories, and in the last two years of the 1940's there was a war.

I can't imagine that anyone would endorse reinstating the British Mandate.

[Behind the Aegis]

68. "What exactly are you proposing?"

He is proposing the destruction of the state of Israel.

[Altean Wanderer]

2. This sounds reasonable to me and that ....

I wonder how Rahm Emmanuel feels about it, I'm encouraged by Obama's boldness here. For someone who knows more about Israel's 1967 borders, please correct me.

[oberliner]

5. Most agree that the eventually peace deal will look something like that

The devil is, of course, in the details.

Namely, Jerusalem.

I hope that Obama gets as involved in the peace process as Clinton did, hopefully with greater success.

[Celebrandil]

18. Yes... the devil was alive last time too

I've read some non-papers from last time. If I remember correctly they had come quite far in agreeing on the 1967 borders (with some modifications due to shifts in populations) and they had more or less agreed on compensation for palestinians who lost their homes. Israel would also let a few hundred Paliestinans per year return to their families in Israel. Since they had agreed on the borders, the world was led to believe that everything was fine.

However, there were some key issues missing. There were no agreements on the status of Jerusalem, the air space and water supplies. To the Israelis a status quo in these areas would probably be what they were hoping for. They would then have kept the control of Jerusalem, the water supplies from the Jordan river and the Palestinian air space. In the Israelis minds everything was probably finalized and ready to sign. When the Palestinians refused, Arafat got the blame.

[Zhade]

42. Yep. That's about how it went down. Arafat did a number of things wrong, but that was not one.

NT!

[MannyGoldstein]

16. This May Not Go Well

It's the right thing, and I sure hope it succeeds... but there are so many crazies on both sides who can turn this into a flaming dung heap.

[waronxmas]

19. Here's a solution

The Israelis and the Palestinians should observe Highlander rules:

No fighting on holy land.

That way they can both have a Jerusalem capital, while allowing everyone to worship at the holy sites free from political control.

Where's my nobel prize?

[LeftishBrit]

20. I really hope it happens!

[ohio2007]

23. What does Israel get out of the deal ? promise of peace ?

The plan by King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, which gives all the land Israel captured in the 1967 war to the Palestinians to Hamas or Fatah, gives back the Golan Heights to Syria, and gives East Jerusalem to the Palestinians as their state capital and Israel gets ?

In return Hamas will recognize Israel as a state ?

I don't think Hamas will bend that far.

jmo.

[OregonBlue]

28. Yes, they get peace. Why not have the U.N. administer both the Golan Height and Jerusalem for as

long as it takes to achieve accord between Israelis and Palestinians? Per an earlier post, I believe that it is a minority of Palestinians who believe that Palestine should be a Sharia state. Many are opposed to it altogether and many more believe that it should only apply to civil matters and that the government structure should be parliamentary.

Recognition by a majority of Arab nations would go a long way toward aiding Israel. Perhaps part of the agreement should be a pledge on the part of Arab nations to come to Israel's defense if they are attacked, whether by Palestinian Forces or radical groups within Palestine.

The price of peace will be very high but won't the benefits also be very great?

[WriteDown]

32. You're willing to rely on the UN?

[Zhade]

43. Ah, you're always there to pimp a conservative viewpoint.

Thanks for reminding us why we're better than that.

[WriteDown]

46. Ridiculous....

The UN is ripe for derision from all sides. Just look at Darfur for reference. Sorry that you can't see the obvious.

[Zhade]

47. It's just that YOUR side always seems to reflect the conservative one.

You have a point about Darfur, though - like clinton's failure with Rwanda, it's a black eye.

[WriteDown]

48. I take whichever side I see as being correct....

they shift so much these days that its tough to tell which is which though. Just take a look at the union bashing that goes on at DU. Darfur is such a tragedy. I wonder if those people's suffering will ever end.

[Zhade]

52. Fair point about the union-bashing. It makes no sense.

NT!

[Hawkowl]

30. Israel has peace now

Why would they agree to giving away Jerusalem? I just don't see it happening soon.

[customerserviceguy]

56. I'm also wondering why PE Obama is picking now to step into this

he still has some sticky problems here at home to resolve, not to mention Iraq and Afghanistan.

It seems to me that the Israel-Palestine-Jordan-Lebanon-Syria areas are relatively calm right now, is it that Obama sees this as a good time to start negotiations?

[regnaD kciN]

36. Good luck...

The problem here is that, within a few days of an Obama presidency, Israeli voters will likely return Benjamin Netanyahu and the Likud Party to power -- the one major party that rejects the concept of a Palestinian state on any part of the occupied territory.

[dennis4868]

37. This article is full of shit!

They have no sources for their story and only name a few former repubs and other former government officials who are urging Obama to go along with the Saudi peace plan...these are not Obama's views...he has stated the opposite on the campaign trail and in his speech to AIPAC.

I would not put too much into this article...

[Truth Teller]

39. Wow - 1967 borders, Golan Heights to Syria, divided Jerusalem...

Hardly the hard AIPAC line we take too often.

[Zhade]

44. A little justness IS refreshing, isn't it?

NT!

[Truth Teller]

49. Yep

When we start being less than Israel's rubber stamp, maybe we can help broker a deal.

[Sebastian Doyle]

50. The best solution regarding Jerusalem would be to give it to NOBODY

Jerusalem would be a city-state unto itself. Not Jewish, Not Muslim, Not Christian, but open to all three, or anyone else that wanted to visit. Nobody gets the city for the capitol. Israel keeps Tel Aviv and the Palestinians get to pick somewhere else.

What's wrong with that?

[juajen]

53. Nothing. I like it. NT

[zelta gaisma]

55. sit back and watch Israel have..

a hissy-fit/temper-tantrum of EPIC proportions ... one to make ANY 2 yr old proud.

[LeftishBrit]

64. Not, I think, if Livni wins the election.

Israeli politicians disagree a lot with each other on these matters.

And the Palestinian politicians are even more divided.

Of course, everything is still rumour at this stage.

[legin]

57. Peace plan number 9,283,457

Yawn.

[legin]

58. I wonder what is going to happen in the Jordan Valley

there is usually some nasty deal breaking stuff going on there.

[legin]

59. Maybe 'floating a Peace Plan'

can now be regarded as a seperate entity with it's own properties and uses, different from floating a peace plan with the aim of securing peace.

Certainly some people get to look like they are doing something constructive even when that's the last thing on their minds, and the Palestinians get to be jerked around a bit more, which seems to be some kind of international sport.

[legin]

60. I've been down in the basement

off and on for about 7 years.

There are about 200 settlers in Palestinian controlled Hebron.

There have been stories about those trouble-making bastards for all of the 7 years I have been in I/P, and there is one down there now. Nothing effing changes.

[legin]

61. What it's like for Palestinians in Hebron (2002 article)

Hebron - 435 Israelis are nestled within the city limits of Hebron in co-habitation with approximately 180,00 Palestinians. The settlers are "guarded" by approximately 1,500 to 2,000 Israeli soldiers costing Israel millions of dollars in operations cost; the ratio is 1 settler to 4 soldiers guarding the post. A World War II style banner ads flash the internet notifying citizens that they can make home-baked goods and baskets to be delivered to the solders on duty in the "front line" anywhere in the West Bank in support of the "war". Tanks surround the city of Hebron, which is divided into areas called H-1 and H-2. Israel has control over security and public order in area H-2 where 20,000 Palestinians and 200 settlers reside.

Since the beginning of the Intifada in September 2001, all entrances have been closed by concrete blocks and checkpoints completely isolating H-1 from the surrounding villages and H-2. The Palestinians who live in H-1 have been living under the worse conditions with curfews imposed on a regular basis and the highest amounts of soldiers roaming the streets since the beginning of the Intifada. As of late, Israel has expanded the curfew onto the entire city of Hebron under curfew. During curfew, settlers and soldiers are allowed to roam the streets, shop and enjoy the sunshine flaunting their presence to the "unseen" local community. Palestinian children have a system to play in the streets; they rotate watch and play from view of the aggressors. Children have learned to ignore the sound of gunshots that perpetrate the city and continue to "role" play, Palestinian and settler games.

more...

http://www.mediamonitors.net/amandawhite16.html

[oberliner]

63. More recent info about Hebron (October 2008)

Palestinian forces carry out first crackdown on Hebron militants

Newly deployed Palestinian security forces smashed down doors, raided homes and rounded up wanted fugitives early Monday, carrying out their first crackdown since taking up positions around this volatile city over the weekend.

Hundreds of men belonging to different Palestinian security forces divided into groups throughout the nearby village of Samoua, holding lists of suspected criminals and loyalists of the militant group Hamas.

Dressed in civilian clothing or clad in blue, black, green and khaki uniforms, they barged through the doors of the wanted Palestinians and searched their homes.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1031861.html

[oberliner]

62. Top Obama aide denies report president-elect will back Arab peace plan

A senior adviser to Barack Obama on Sunday denied reports that the U.S. president-elect plans to throw his weight behind the 2002 Arab peace plan, which calls for Israel to withdraw from all territories captured during the 1967 Six-Day War in exchange for normalized ties with the Arab world.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1037578.html

Not sure what to believe at this point.