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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 12:25 AM
Original message
S.C. diocese critical of Greenville priest's Obama comments
Edited on Sat Nov-15-08 12:27 AM by struggle4progress
Source: The Greenville News

By Eric Connor • STAFF WRITER • November 14, 2008

... "As administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, let me state with clarity that Father Newman’s statements do not adequately reflect the Catholic Church’s teachings," Monsignor Martin T. Laughlin said Friday in a posting on the diocese’s Web site. "Any comments or statements to the contrary are repudiated" ...

Newman advised parishioners who voted for Obama to do penance before participating in communion "lest they eat and drink their own condemnation."

On Friday, Laughlin said in his posting that "... if a person has formed his or her conscience well, he or she should not be denied Communion, nor be told to go to confession before receiving Communion."

Laughlin said in the statement that "we should all come together to support the President-elect and all elected officials with a view to influencing policy in favor of the protection of the unborn child"...

Read more: http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article/20081114/LIFE06...



Related LBN thread:

SC priest: No communion for Obama supporters
Thu Nov-13-08 11:47 PM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

<edit: subj line html>
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you for posting this. There are too many here who think
renegade priests like this speak for the whole Church.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Mere reality won't convince some of those guys, but yeah (nt)
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. Well your church still organizes against my family
so pat yourselves on the back all you want. In spite of the organized thugs coming after my household. What is my household, compared to the glory of your faith? A thing to be attacked and held in contempt, by your church. I've known individual Catholics who were wonderful people. The church is not wonderful. It is a den of vipers. It is hate stew, and it bears child abuse and division in the community. Thousands are marching in the streets this weekend against the revocation of basic human rights, promoted in great part by the RCC. Those thousands of marchers might be hard to convince that what is is not. To believe as you do, you must hate or turn a blind eye to being a member of a group that brings far more sorrow to others than any group has right to. Hands off my family, just hands off.
Once your church lays off my household, I have lots of lovely stories about individuals in your church, that are very sweet. Those stories will be ignored in favor of more disturbing but also true elements of RCC history and theology. Just the facts.
The last two weeks have seen all the respect I'd managed to keep for individual Catholics go righ out the window. Y'all took it too far. Now you have to own what you are doing. That means lots of people just will not dig your hate stuff. Don't like it, don't be that thing.

Reality: your church funds and organizes legal actions against my family. Let me know when you stop that vicious Ratzinger type of hate action. Then we can talk. Lay off my family, I'll lay off your church, and trust me, never ever darken your doors at all. All your church has to do is leave us alone. Stop picking fights. Stop making trouble for good people.

Please stop your church from attacking my human rights. That is where it begins.
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POAS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Good rant! n/t
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. i'm just sick of the
lack of accoutability and the demands for respect for those who do not earn such respect. How can any Democrat think the RCC is the wronged party here, how can any human being think that in the face of organized attacks against families, that the image of their 'faith' is the important thing?
No, people of actual faith seek to make justice, not to destroy families.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #29
55. "How can any Democrat think the RCC is the wronged party here?!?!!!!" BECAUSE YOU STARTED THIS HATE
FEST!

YOU!

YOUR INSTITUTION THAT YOU'RE A MEMBER OF!!!
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
44. What church, Mr. Assumption? I'm agnostic. (nt)
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axollot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
48. I understand your hostility toward the RCC, especially since the
Edited on Sat Nov-15-08 04:56 PM by axollot
election. I am a non-practicing catholic mum to an out (in NE FL no less) teenage gay son. I want for him to have the same rights as a hetero, it really pisses me off that my son may be well into his 30's or older before he has the right to marry whomever he chooses. He's only 14 right now and we *are* closer, at least it's being considered where it has never been before.

However, you seem to now want to hate catholics as individuals which truly saddens me (despite your claim that you know many lovely catholics..). Unlike the Mormons in Utah and CA, Catholics actually voted overwhelmingly *FOR* an Obama administration (wish I had link, read shortly after election), Catholics as individuals expect their church to change with the times, and they do recognize things like evolution. Sadly, the Vatican has a LONG way to go and if they want to put their nose and MONEY into politics then they, as should the Mormons lose their tax-free status.

Read an excellent post regarding the knock down of Gay Marriage laws all over the country (as you know Prop 8 was only in CA but other states, including FL voted against it too) regarding the rhetoric that gay marriage damages the sanctity of marriage - someone posted that only heterosexuals with a divorce rate of 51% (and those quickie marriages in Vegas that last 48 hours celebs are so fond of) is what is ruining the 'sanctity of marriage. AND THAT was spot the fuck ON!

I do hope prop 8 gets over turned and wish SCOTUS rules soon, that EVERYONE is entitled to marry the person they love, regardless of gender. I know I want my son to marry the person he loves. Not only does he have the support of his immediate family, he is welcome always at anyone in our very close (and yet very Catholic, practicing and non-practicing) extended familly's homes with his significant other. He is only 14 now, so his relationships are like any other 14 yr olds, but he is not sexually active yet either and only recently had his first kiss. His boyfriend's mother (a southern baptist) is so crazy scared of her son's sexuality that they are removing their phone, internet AND TV! The only time they see each other is in school and when he can escape long enough to come over as he was able to do yesterday, and enjoy a family who embraces the person you are not judge you by your sexuality.

Cheers
Sandy
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. you're in Orange Park?
damn-I used to live in Jax and my roommate's family lived in Orange Park

scary neck of the woods

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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #18
54. And you left off an important item: YOU (catholics and the RCC) FIRST!
YOU started this witch hunt, YOU stop this FIRST.

Then, after long and careful deliberation and consideration, we may too...
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. I agree.
The priest who baptised me was a caring and compassionate man, and would not advocate for the shunning of people who might think differently than he did.

(Though I suspect that he voted for Obama....)

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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. Most of the priests I knew growing up
not only would have heartily disagreed with Newman, but my pastor growing up usually found himself on the wrong side of the bishop over issues like girls being accolytes and such. He would happily have seen women ordained, too. He was more than a few steps ahead of the hierarchy... unfortunately, had to retire. But I'm certain there are more out there like him, thank goodness.

The problem is that the people we usually hear speaking for "THE CHURCH" are the hierarchy, the leaders, and most of them are not among the good guys. They got where they are because they're more than willing to toe the line, and since JPII, that line has been increasingly conservative and backward-looking.

Meanwhile, most American R. Catholics continue on with their lives, not letting that affect them much.

I couldn't remain among them, personally. Not enough patience to wait a few generations for the change I needed to see. So I joined the Episcopal church, happily. But my family are still there. And broad-brush swipes never work.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Your former pastor sounds like
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Yeah, something like that!
Which is why, though he didn't want to retire, he had to once he reached the age... bishop was glad to be rid of him, I think!
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #19
34. I've had such wonderful experiences with Episcopal folk
incuding the clergy. Seriously, the first Episcopal service I ever attended was also the first time a white cleric was pro actively welcoming and accepting of us. She and her church, and the male cleric too, were lovely, the congregation was lovely and the fellowship was great. The service and readings were moving, even to me as a non religious person. Not a single bad thing to say about that church, but I would be remiss if I did not point out that the pot luck supper was out of this world, heavenly almost.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #34
46. LOL, yes, I've found that no matter what, Episcopalians like to eat!
and they are addicted to pot luck dinners. And coffees with lots of sweet things.

But yes, that inclusive outlook was my experience, too, which was what made me feel perfectly comfortable being received into the Episcopal church - the liturgy is nearly identical to the one I grew up in with the RCC, but the outlook was quite different. And the first priest I ran across at the parish here in my town was a woman - there's a message I wanted my kids to get!

We in the parish certainly have different opinions on topics of the day. But we talk. And better, we listen. And there's never any question that all are welcomed.

When my kids were baptised, the priest at the time even went out of her way to change the service to say "God" instead of "Christ" - because she knew my Jewish ILs would be in the congregation. Talk about welcoming!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
24. My uncle is a priest
And he condemns this nonsense.
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #12
31. Obama won the Catholic vote
And courted it. Groups like Pax Christi and Catholic Democrats worked hard for him. I suspect guys like this SC priest are sore losers. They've held the floor over the last several years, along with every other conservative religious leader and politician. The progressive Catholics won this round, and I don't think the conservatives saw it coming. And they're mad. Pissed, in fact.

I had to chuckle at the Bishops' statement last week, though; re, abortion. I think the Bishops were really saying, "We helped put you into office and we don't want you to forget about our issues." They don't seem to realize that it was the LAITY'S doing, not theirs.

You might be interested in a report by the Pew Research Center: it found that in 2004, the threat by several Conservative bishops to deny communion to Kerry supporters had a minimal impact on the election. Bush actually gained more votes among non-churchgoers than he did among Catholics. And 72 percent of Catholics disapproved of the Bishops' statements.
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. "Bout time common sense steps in. Thanks for posting this.
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Veritas_et_Aequitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for posting.
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mrs_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. been waiting for this
thanks for posting
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
6. Some renegade "spokesman" earlier said the priest wasn't out of line... looks like he lost his job
This Monsignor has pretty clearly said that such pulpit polticking is not acceptable. Thank God and about time. Now make the priest publicly apologize.
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boomerbust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 04:02 AM
Response to Original message
7. Here's an idea
Maybe the Catholic Church should pay due penance to the Federal Government in the form of taxes if it wants to play the politics game.
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clixtox Donating Member (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. The Catholic Church and all "churches" should pay property taxes and...

corporate income taxes and all of their employees, officiants, educators, administrators, hierarchy and those cloistered should be subject to the same tax burden as is everyone else.

They should be paying their way whether they "play politics" or not!

I don't see any evangelical atheists getting tax breaks or dispensation (so to speak)!
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Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. We could pay for the TARP with that!
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
27. Catholic clergy are taxed
Only Catholic orders who take a vow of poverty (i.e., the Trappists) don't pay taxes. Diocesan priests, i.e., pastors, pay taxes like everyone else. To pay its DIocesans, the American church looks at the average salary of a not-for-profit adminidstrator in the United States, take a percentage of that (can't remember what it is off the top of my head) and give it to them as a salary. They are taxed just as any single person with no children is taxed. The church also gives them a "living expense" stipend, which is also taxed. Priests also have to plan for their own retirement, and sometimes three or four of them will buy a house together, so they will have somewhere to live once they retire. They pay property taxes on that house, just like I pay them on mine.

Many Catholic teachers, administrators, etc. are not clergy. Why would you think THEY would not be taxed? Of course they are. The priests I know who have second careers, also pay tax -- i.e., college professors and such.
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clixtox Donating Member (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
49. Illuminate us about whether church property is taxed...


I am happy to hear about those religionists who are paying income tax on their earnings. How about the earnings/surplus/profits of the whole enterprise? The corporate structure of the varied churches? Are these monies subject to state and federal taxation? Gifts over $10K or whatever is the current tax-free gift limit?
But mostly I wish that all of the churches properties be assessed and by subject to the County property taxes.
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-08 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. I assume property tax laws vary state by state. I only know mine.
In my state, all property NOT in use for a specifically religious purpose -- ie, a church site -- is taxed. For example, if you've got vacant property where you want to build a church SOMEDAY, it's taxed. Churches in my state have a not-for-profit status at state level (I'm not going to comment on the federal level, because I know nothing about it). My state is also contemplating changing the ways it deals with not-for-profits, which of course affects churches. And before you rejoice, please remember this will also affect the Humane Societies, Boys and Girls Clubs, etc, because they, too, operate as not-for-profits.

Then there are the Catholic colleges and universities, which employ mostly lay people, and operate out of a different category.

I'm not sure what you mean by profits, earnings, surplus, because, as I've said, churches operate operate under not-for-profit rules. As for the surplus and earnings themselves, I have no idea, because they vary so much from diocese to diocese, denomination to denomination, church to church.

As for the county property tax question, I suggest you do some research locally (I certainly can't tell you how or why your state and county does things), then contact your lawmakers. The current change now contemplated in my state was prompted by a grass-roots campaign.

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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 04:38 AM
Response to Original message
9. "Intrinsically Evil" -- abortion but not torture or pre-emptive war or daisy cutters
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MJJP21 Donating Member (262 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 04:48 AM
Response to Original message
10. Obama really
needs to come out publicly and soon and finally proclaim that this country is a country of many faiths and some of no faith. That there is no one who favors death and no one who favors abortion. The goal is reduce unnecessary pregnancies and unnecessary abortions using the full arsenal of preventive measures from education, birth control etc. If your faith or personal conviction hinders your acceptance of these measures then don't use them. The US had as many abortions last year as we had in 1977 yet we have a hundred million more people. The trend is pointing strongly downward and would have been even more steep had the present administration not promoted the "abstinence" solution as the only one.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/graphus...
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
57. Obama has said a lot of that. That his focus is reducing unwanted
preganancies. That he does not believe that any woman comes to the abortion decision lightly, etc. he did not put it in your exact words, but he expressed a lot of the thoughts.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 05:53 AM
Response to Original message
11. Glad his boss was monitoring his subordinate.
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southern_belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
13. he should be defrocked
:(
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dcindian Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 06:40 AM
Response to Original message
14. One man disagrees with another and all is well?
Always quick to forgive their own transgressions but never really sorry.
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minnesota_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
15. Father Newman can go straight to hell
Another fine example of someone misusing religion AND claiming to know God's thoughts.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
16. "Why so many pro-life Catholics backed Obama" by Andrew Greeley
Why so many pro-life Catholics backed Obama
Recommend (52)
Comments

November 5, 2008

BY ANDREW GREELEY

It would appear from the pre-election polls that more than half of American Catholics voted for Barack Obama. How could they do that when their bishops ordered them to vote for John McCain? In fact, no such order was issued, though some bishops came pretty close to it. Most bishops were content with a somewhat obscure statement about the evil of abortion which also urged Catholics to consider all the items on the Catholic pro-life agenda.

Some years ago, then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger issued a statement on the subject to which he added a footnote about cooperation in evil. Sometimes such cooperation can be "formal and direct," as when one votes for a pro-choice candidate because one deliberately agrees with and supports that position. Other times, however, the voter does not approve of the candidate's position on abortion but votes for him because of other "proportionate" reasons. Then the cooperation is "material and indirect."

What might such a reason be?

It might have been that while the candidate did not reject abortion, he supported most of the other Catholic positions on life, i.e. he condemned unjust wars, the death penalty, torture, kidnapping, cruelty to immigrants that his opponents implicitly support.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/greeley/1259897,CST-EDT-gr...
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Danchi Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
28. Single issue Voters-Stay Home
People who are single issue voters abdicate their responsibility to think. People who are single issue voters abdicate their right to vote for anything that affects the rest of the country. People who are single issue voters abdicate their voices period, not to mention their brain. It just fills in that space between their ears. You insult the very God you claim you are lending voice to by giving away your power to MEN who can never get pregnant and spend many years chasing after little boys and girls, ruining their lives because of the sexual abuse perpetuated on them. After all the Priests the Catholic Church ran interference for, moving them around from church to church so their sick obsession with children could not be discovered and than trying to pay off families so it wouldn't be discovered, how dare they try and take the moral high ground on any issue. Against abortion but for war. What you're saying is we'll let the government legally choose their time of death, but after they use them for whatever immoral purpose they have. I believe the single issues voters helped put bush in office twice and hey folks, look how that turned out. Single issue voters do the country a favor the next time there is an election for anything, just stay home. You clearly are not capable of using critical thinking.
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #28
43. The church does not support the Iraq War, n/t
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politicalmajority Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
20. Father Jay Scott Newman Is an Anti-American Heretic That We Have to Fight Against and Reject
Al Gore said so on Larry King Live last year.

"...but this has been twisted around in recent times by some people who want to convey the impression that God belongs, if not to a particular political party, that God has a particular political ideology and that those who disagree with a right-wing approach to this or that are against God.

"That is an anti-American view. That is completely contrary to the spirit of America. It is an American heresy and people in both parties ought to reject that and fight against it."

You can see Al Gore's entire interview with Larry King at http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0705/26/lkl.01.h...
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Greenheron Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. DU
Just show your Catholic friends pictures of depleted uranium babies and see how that sits.
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New Mexico Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
22. Tax the Church
If they politic from the pulpit
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always_saturday Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
26. The Catholic Church is anti-woman, anti-gay, and pro-hypocrisy.
The Catholic Church might have some priests who soft-peddle its stance on abortion. But they are just playing the role of "good cop" while the "bad cop" priests make the more threatening statements regarding Catholics who are pro-choice.

The Catholic Church doesn't give a shit about women - they only care about the contents of that woman's womb, which they give a higher status to than they do to the woman herself.

The Catholic Church is OBSESSED with procreation and reproductive organs. Than which no greater irony really exists.

I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school for 12 years, and when I was 18, I decided that I'd had enough. Liberal Democrats like me who remained apologists for the Catholic Church in the face of its inhumanity to women and gays have always puzzled me.


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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. Biden and Obama must puzzle you, too
Since Biden is Catholic, and Obama has positive things to say about his past Catholic associations. And courted Catholic voters, as well.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. I utterly reject Obama and Biden's dogmatic delusions
and the way they use their 'faith' to try to maintain a class of people with less status, fewer rights subject to unequal treatment under the law. They are wrong, they hold bigoted opinions that spring from their 'faith'. And yes, how a man as smart as Biden can stand up and speak in favor of discrimination under the law is more than puzzeling, it is disgusting. Biden stands with child rapers against my family, and yeah, I find that troubling. His dogmatic prejudices were a huge hurdle for me to cross to reamain a Democrat this year. He is part of an organized group that attack smy family's right to simply exist, so I see Joe as kind of a Robert Bird type, just one who has yet to reform from his bigoted ways and roots.
I too could say positive things about some Catholic folk and charities. But those days are gone. As of Nov 4th we stick to tales of Torquemada and other RCC greatest hits that most folk don't know. The postive things will be ignored in favor of more unsavory items that are also fully factual. For every Carmelite there are a hundred Bernard Laws. And that is where this conversation will stay, lingering around the worst aspects of RCC history, as long as you all keep attacking families that have nothing to do with your hate faith thing.
Leave us alone. Just leave us alone. Stop making trouble. Stop picking fights. Practice your own damn faith for one damn day, and just leave my family alone. You want respect? Get your thugs to leave my family alone. Back off. Stop the harrassment. Leave us alone.
Just leave us alone.
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. I'm happy to leave you alone. I'm sure I've never picked on you in my life
And my post was not addressed to you, I must say. But I will respond to your response:

I respect your statements on Obama and Biden; you're consistent in your beliefs. Unfortunately, neither of them supports gay marriage, though I think Obama supports unions.

I must admit the Prop. 8 debacle puzzles ME. I'd assumed it wouldn't pass, California being California. Also, I just read an article which identified the two cofounders of Word Perfect as major donors to both sides of the question. One is gay, one is Mormon. My first thought was, why are two Utah residents getting involved in a California election? And then, and I hate to say this, if they are private individuals, can't they do what they wish with their own money? Church funds are one thing, but private money? And should individuals be able to do so in an election that doesn't involve their own state? I think this whole referendum should spur some campaign finance reform.

The fact that it DID pass does not bode well for the rest of the country, I'm afraid. I live in a red state, but almost no one I know goes to church. Few people are Catholic, and almost no one I know supports gay marriage. And their reasons for it are all over the place. Believe it or not, lots of people actually think it will bankrupt the Social Security system. I kid you not. And there will be massive fraud, they claim. "Two straight guys will claim they're gay, and get married so they can be on each other's insurance, and then one will claim the other's ss benefit later on." "Why would two straight guys go through all that trouble?" I ask. I've yet to get a good answer.

My husband, who is agnostic, has no use whatever for religion, says it's a business, does not support gay marriage. He thinks gay civil unions should be available everywhere, but that marriage is between a man and a woman. At first I couldn't understand this, but I'm starting to wonder if maybe it's due to the macho culture he grew up with.

For what it's worth, if I lived in California I'd have voted no. And you can think anything you want of me, but I'll not take it personally, as much as I think you'd like me to.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
56. On national TV, before Election Day, Biden congratulated Ellen De Generes on her marriage and said
that he would vote against Prop 8 if he lived in California
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DesertRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #32
38. Kucinich, Kennedy, Kerry, Dodd, Durbin, Leahy and Cantwell too. n/t
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Durbin and Leahy are Catholic?
I love those guys.
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DesertRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Yes, as are many other wonderful Democratic politicians. n/t
Edited on Sat Nov-15-08 09:44 AM by DesertRat
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. If I'm not mistaken, Kucinich is, or was.
Kucinich, Saint of DU, who'd have thought?

The Papists are taking over -- the horror. We're DOOOOMED!
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
35. I think the penalty for withholding Communion should be punishment in kind. n/t
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
37. LOL
I wonder which would have more of an impact. This preacher's bigotry, or that the chinese spiked the wafers with Melamine.
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JimboBillyBubbaBob Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
45. Father Newman
The FSM is watching you!
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
47. These must be the guys
who count what gets put in the collection plates...
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
50. There are responsible priests of good consience, & Laughlin is a fine example. K&R.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-08 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
53. It's about time - funny how they waited to say so...the pony express must be running slow...
Sorry, but in this day and age of instant communication, this should have been out there THE NEXT DAY, if not later the same day...

This is good, but I'm not going to congratulate them on something that should have been out there RIGHT AWAY...
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
58. How many doctors will not perform abortions.
Edited on Mon Nov-17-08 06:51 AM by olegramps
I discussed this with oldest brother, now deceased, who was a doctor. He said that while he respected the rights of the women to choose, he wouldn't preform an elective abortion and he knew very few doctors who would. I am curious if this is the general case. Do many doctors who support abortion rights actually decline to perform the procedure?
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