Deaths feared in Finland school shooting

[muriel_volestrangler]

Source: CNN

Several people are feared dead after a man opened fire at a college in southwestern Finland Tuesday before killing himself, state media reported.

The shots were reported at a college for home- and institutional-economics in the municipality of Kauhajoki, according to YLE, a Finnish national broadcaster.

The broadcaster, citing hospital sources, said the shooter -- a 22-year-old student at the school -- later killed himself.

Speculation surrounded a video on Web site YouTube, which appeared to show a man from the town of Kauhajoki firing a pistol at a shooting range. It was eventually withdrawn from the site.

Read more: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/09/23/finland.school.shooting/?iref=mpstoryview

---

Also:

"Gunman arrested after Finnish school shooting: police" AFP http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hKYloNj_zpDLXVg69K8hu4pD6XfQ

"Finnish school shooter has killed self: city mayor" Reuters http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE48M4ZZ20080923

"Gun attack targets Finnish school" BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7630969.stm

[Solly Mack]

1. I'm hearing 3 dead (so far)

on CNNi (just now)

[Solly Mack]

2. 9 dead now....more dead than wounded

the shooter is wounded.....not dead

[Solly Mack]

3. "In an open society these things will happen when a lunatic wants to do something like this"

When the news reader attempted to inject hysteria and alarm


Great reply!!!

[Solly Mack]

4. the news reader really, really wants the officials to behave as

some American official would behave (we're gonna get tough on crime! strip searches begin tomorrow! this is what becomes of loose morals and hollywood!!")

"No security? No metal detectors? You have a history of school violence? What are you doing?!? What's the motive?"


the official...calm, cool, collected...not taking the bait.

Free people...open society....these things happen...it's happened once before...no metal detectors and no need for them... we don't know a motive and there's nothing to gain by speculating either

[Solly Mack]

5. OK. The news reader just went beyond my ability to tolerate her

"Does this say something about Finnish society?"


9 dead & others wounded...shooter critically wounded (head shot, self-inflicted)

I'm outtie

[tama]

6. Yes it does.

What this says about Finnish society is that even though we are now being Americanized and seeing and feeling the consequenses of that process, most of us still remember something else understand that school killing are extreme symptoms of a very bad social disease, sign of collective insanity Europeans call "civilization".

What this says about Finnish society is that just like other non-indoeuropean native peoples with shamanistic roots, who have been conquered and occupied and assimilated by Indo-Europeans for centuries, we have long path to walk to redeem ourselves, to recuperate from this mostly subconsciouss Stockholm syndrom that is our self inflicted plague, to find the lost parts of our soul-spirits. To remember that we are people of the Forest, organic part of the Forest and her majestic Wilderness.

Feel free to share this viewpoing with CNN and other talking air-heads, if it so pleases.

[WriteDown]

7. Wouldn't the Finnish know more about Stockholm

syndrome than most. They are much closer to Stockholm :eyes:. Not sure I would attribute a single act to "social disease."

[tama]

8. Heh

What is mass-individualism other than social disease? ;)

PS: Why do I get the impression you don't have a clue what Stockholm syndrom means?

[WriteDown]

9. Just being a bit obtuse...

I still think you have to be careful to not read too much into this isolated incident :).

[tama]

11. Not isolated

second school shooting in a short period - first was in Jokela, and not long ago a similar young one blew a bomb in a mall. These are the extremes, the norm is the widespread chronic depression and psychomedication in service of the machine-society (see Chaplin's Modern Times). Mentally Finns are so primitive that they have not even started climbing down from the tree, and shouldn't need to.

PS: as to "reading too much" - touché, I'm a poet writing in Finnish and I admit having read too much. So you can take it or leave when I speak about how if feels here in Finland, deep down, but please don't insist talking for Finns, if you don't live here.

[WriteDown]

13. Sounds like the problem lies with the authorities

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,426210,00.html

[tama]

14. Don't think so

more and more of nanny state / police state (what's the difference?) is not the solution. It's part of the problem.

[WriteDown]

77. No, the problem lies in...

the authorities not being trained in recognizing mental illness. This could have been prevented easily.

[tama]

80. I don't think

you know a lot about the art of diagnosis. How would training police to diagnose mental illness (if that was the case, the guy said he was misanthrope which is kind of logical position) based on short encounter differ from racial profiling?

[WriteDown]

81. Is it that much trouble for....

police forces to have a few psychiatrists on staff? Nope.

[tama]

82. Well it is

There are waiting times of several months to child psychiatry. Most of psychiatry is today a quick standard diagnosis based on short discussion and then pills. At the same time when this nation is mentally breaking up. And Finland is not the only nation doing so, what modernized nation today is not a "prozac nation"?

[WriteDown]

83. Huh?

My girlfriend is a child psychiatrist and would lose it if you described her profession that way.

[tama]

84. Talking about

psychiatry in general, social health-care system here, driven down since the last depression.

But I enjoyed the image of a psychiatrist "losing it", thanks for that.

[WriteDown]

85. haha...

I laughed while i was typing that too, but it is not far from the truth. I say the same things to tease her about it all the time. I think if there is that much of a need for psychiatry professionals in Finland then its an opportunity for the govt to offer heavy incentives for people to get into the field.

[tama]

86. Well,

During the latest depression they emptied the mental hospitals and created a system of "telecare" (basically pumping up the patients with new innovative drugs and leaving them to cope by themselves).

After the Jokela incident - the school shooting year ago where the culprit was very unhappy about the drugs that the psychiatrists had prescribed him - there was a big discussion about state of mental care in Finland, and the national head of the field proudly said that despite cuts in funding, the profession has been able to keep Finns (mostly) able to work (meaning as as slaves to capitalistic profit making ;-)) by innovative new drugs.

At that point I went HEY! Now how is this supposed to be different from Soviet psychiatry and their treatment of dissidents???!

So no, I don't want more psychiatrists profiling unnormative behaviour. More shamans would be OK, but don't tell me that more psychiatrists would be the solution, please.


PS: In my experience many Americans have the habit of "knowing better", especially when discussing things they know little of. The habit of knowing better can be a handicap to learning, you know? ;-)

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maddezmom]

10. Gunman kills 9 at school in Finland, then self

KAUHAJOKI, Finland - A masked gunman whose violent YouTube postings prompted police to bring him in for questioning opened fire Tuesday at his trade school in western Finland, killing nine people before shooting himself in the head.

Witnesses said panic broke out as the gunman entered the school in Kauhajoki, 180 miles northwest of Helsinki, and began firing in a classroom where students were taking an exam. The shootings began just before 11 a.m. local time (0800GMT), as about 150 students were at the Kauhajoki School of Hospitality.

The gunman had been questioned by police on Monday about YouTube postings in which he is seen firing a handgun, Interior Minister Anne Holmlund said. He was released because there were no legal grounds to hold him, she said.

It was Finland's second school massacre in less than a year.

more:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080923/ap_on_re_eu/eu_finland_school_shooting;_ylt=AsEPmI7dsRKPwzho.37etFVvaA8F

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. Killer has died from self-inflicted wounds; police interviewed him on Monday

A gunman has killed 10 people at a college in the town of Kauhajoki in Finland before shooting himself and later dying in hospital.
...
The suspect posted a video of himself on the internet last week firing a gun.

As a result of this, police interviewed him on Monday but decided they did not have enough evidence to revoke his licence, the interior minister said.

The minister, Anne Holmlund, said an investigation would now try to determine whether mistakes were made.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7630969.stm

[ben_meyers]

15. Finland gunman murders 10 of his fellow students

Source: Evening Standard

Robert Mendick, Chief Reporter

A masked man armed with explosives and a machinegun went on the rampage at a college today, murdering at least 10 fellow students.

Nine people were confirmed deadbut police said the death toll was likely to rise as emergency services searched the burnt-out buildings at a vocational college in Kauhajoki, about 200 miles from Helsinki in Finland. One report suggested dozens of people, including teachers, had been injured .

Terrified students ran screaming from the college as they sought refuge from the gunman.

Police said the 22-year-old killer had set fire to areas within the college as well as shooting at students during a spree that had lasted almost two hours. He began firing in a ground floor classroom where students were taking tests and continued sporadically for two hours.

Police are investigating a possible link between the gunman and videos on the internet showing a young man dressed in black repeatedly firing a pistol at a shooting range close to the scene of today's atrocity.



Read more: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23559198-details/Finland+gunman+murders+10+of+his+fellow+students/article.do

---

Heck of a job NRA and Bush!!

Gotta do something about that U-tube stuff.

[maxsolomon]

16. tragic.

anomie is international.

[NickB79]

17. The NRA is active in Finland?

:shrug:

[tama]

21. Yep

and it's called NRA - a direct copy of US. Just like school killings. Thanks a bunch USAns, now please pretty please, could you stop leading by example?

[Arugula Latte]

49. We sure do export a lot of harm, from McDonald's to Coke to the NRA to bombs.

:(

[against all enemies]

18. its a tragedy but what does the NRA and Bush have to do with finland?

i don't think either has much sway over there... maybe its the violent finnish rap music?

[davepc]

19. I didn't realise the NRA had some mystical powers to effect European countries

The ownership and use of firearms is regulated by the Firearms Act of 1998.

Firearms can only be obtained with an acquisition license, which can be applied for at the local police for €32. A separate license is required for each individual firearm and family members can have parallel licenses to use the same firearm. According to law, the firearms must be stored in a locked space or otherwise locked, or with vital parts removed and separated. Even then the weapon or any of its separated parts must not be easily stolen. If an especially dangerous firearm or more than 5 pistols, revolvers or self-loading rifles or other-type firearms are being stored, they must be stored in a certified gun safe or in a secure space inspected and approved by the local police authority.

They may be carried only when they are transported from their place of storage to the place of use (shooting range, hunting area or such). Even then they must be unloaded and concealed or kept in carrying pouches. Aside from law enforcement agents and military personnel, only security guards with closely defined working conditions, special training and a permit are allowed to carry a loaded gun in public places. The ownership of air-rifles is not regulated but carrying or firing them in public places is not permitted. A crossbow is paralleled to an air rifle in legal matters.

To obtain a firearms license, an individual must declare a valid reason to own a gun. Acceptable reasons include hunting, sports or hobby shooting, profession related, show or promotion or exhibition, collection or museum, souvenir, and signalling. It is worth noticing that self- or home defence are not considered valid reasons. The applicant must provide evidence supporting the acquisition license application to prove that he or she is actually using firearms for the stated purpose(s). Such proof may consist of written declarations from other license holders as referees, shooting diaries or certificates from a shooting club.<2>

The applicant is also subjected to an extensive background check from police accessible databases and even citations for speeding or DUI can be grounds of not granting the license.

Collectors can have special licenses for firearms otherwise not permitted (e.g. pocket guns or select fire weapons). These are usually issued based on the collector's previous record of gun ownership, but ultimately the issuing of licenses is at the local police's discretion.

Conversely, a license for a pistol or a rifle is relatively easy to obtain, although the police usually require that the first gun is suitable for a beginner (usually a gun chambered in .22LR).

Possession of destructive devices such as automatic weapons, rocket and grenade launchers, breech loading cannons, artillery rockets, or missile systems is generally not permitted. The Finnish Ministry of the Interior has discretion to license such devices to collectors, for motion picture production or exhibition use.

The firearms certificate may be cancelled if a person has committed any crimes (in addition to violent crimes, simple theft and traffic offences are also considered) or has broken certificate rules. Physical and mental problems or reckless behavior are solid grounds for canceling the certificate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Finland

[tuckessee]

20. NRA? Finland?

Back away from the glue, please.

[LanternWaste]

24. Yup-- NRA. Finland.

http://www.nra.fi/enindex.html


Not much glue, but I hear there's a lot of snow...

[4lbs]

22. How long before the NRA blames Obama for this?

:sarcasm:

[spoony]

23. It's about mental illness.

When it happens here. Or there. Or anywhere. It's mental illness. It isn't rock n roll. It isn't ritalin. It isn't grand theft auto. It isn't youtube or the NRA or, God help me, Bush. This is about us as societies needing to stop placing blame on our pet whipping boys and identify and get help for troubled people.

[iverglas]

26. it's about ACCESS TO FIREARMS

"Mental illness" does not kill a dozen people in an educational instiution.

An individual WITH A FIREARM does that.


(Yes, once in a while a mentally ill person in Japan kills a few people with a bladed instrument. If somebody wants to discuss violence in Japan, s/he will need to be bringing a few experts along.)

[tama]

27. NO ITS NOT!!!

Finland like many other places has had hunting culture for ages, respectfull of natural balance. The insanity from America is now spilling over and reaching its peak. All of this is very very recent hereabouts.

You guys, as American slash Anglo-Saxon fascist totalitaran exemplaries of THE sicko culture, can talk the talk of evading responsibily, but no, you can't wqlk the walk of escaping responsibility, no matter how many times you talk the talk of innocence continuously reborn.

[iverglas]

33. excuse me

You guys, as American Exemplaries of THE sicko culture, can talk the talk of evading responsibily, but no, you can't escape responsibility.

I am a Canadian, a citizen of Canada, and a resident of Canada. There actually was no reason to assume what my nationality or location was.

(I have no idea where or what you are, as you don't seem to have said.)

And even still, forgive me if you can: I do not agree with you.


Finland like many other places has had hunting culture for ages, respectfull of natural balance.

The firearm used in this shooting was apparently a semi-automatic or automatic pistol. This has nothing to do with hunting, let alone natural balance.


All of this is very very recent hereabouts.

The UK had mass school shootings/murders in 1987 and 1995.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

36 tourists were killed in a mass shooting in Australia in 1996.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia

Canada had a mass campus shooting/murder in 1989
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Massacre
and another attempted mass campus shooting/murder (one death, many injuries, stopped by police) in 2006
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson_College_Shooting
and has had several other school shooting incidents.

Finland itself had a similar incident last year; I don't know about any others there may have been.


I can speak to the Canadian incidents, in particular the 1989 Polytechnique killings. The killer was indeed disturbed, but his direct motivation was a hatred of "feminists" whom he perceived as having thwarted his career aspirations by taking places in engineering school: he targeted and killed 14 women. But who knows, maybe he got the idea from US television.


I am the very last person to suggest that the US does not bear responsibility for a lot of things. The proliferation of and illicit trafficking in small arms in the world is one thing it bears huge responsibility for.

But frankly, I'm afraid I'll just have to lay the responsibility for what happens in Finland, when people who should not have access to semi/automatic pistols shoot people with them, squarely at Finland's own doorstep. There may be nothing that can be done to stop these things from happening altogether -- Finland, like the rest of us, is a society in which there are (a) handguns and (b) people who may use them to kill other people. But it actually just isn't someone else's fault when that happens.

[tama]

36. Sorry

addressing the majority of DU, the USANs. I'm Finnish and I really hate Canada for constantly beating us in Ice-Hockey.

I believe you've seen the fat guys documentary on school killings including comparison between US and Canada gun culture and mentality. Don't know, never been there and will never come (closer than Ireland).

The gun laws here are to serve the hunting culture (also minors can learn to shoot game with their own guns) and sports / target practicing in a gun club. The laws are basically OK, no need to project the US polemics in circumstances where they don't apply - or would not if not the mental assimilation and indoctrination.

This is only the second school shooting in Finland, both inside one year. Guess where the idea or "cultural meme" came from.

[iverglas]

40. "ice hockey"

I'll bet you don't actually call it that there any more than we do here. ;)


I believe you've seen the fat guys documentary on school killings including comparison between US and Canada gun culture and mentality.

Actually, his presentation of the Canadian situation was carefully tailored to fit whatever his thesis was about the US.

The huge great big difference between Canada and the US in this regard is the very small presence of handguns in Canada, and at least the attempt here to restrict access to them to sports shooters and "collectors". (The result is all too often that they are stolen from sports shooters and collectors and used in crime -- and that some alleged "sports shooters" turn out to have completely different things in mind, like the one who did the shooting at Dawson College and the one who killed a bystander in downtown Toronto this year.)

Most robberies in Canada do not involve weapons, and a tiny fraction involve handguns; handguns are used in a much higher proportion of robberies in the US, one result being a much higher rate of homicide in the course of robbery in the US. One example of the effect of essentially unregulated access to handguns.

Handguns are the weapon of choice for people who need an enforcement method when committing a crime, for people who want to do bizarre things like shoot a roomful of people at a school, for people who want to protect themselves while engaging in dangerous and illegal activities like drug trafficking, etc.

And access to handguns is the big difference between the US and comparable societies.


The gun laws here are to serve the hunting culture (also minors can learn to shoot game with their own guns)

The same is largely true in Canada -- and in fact there are looser restrictions in the case of First Nations young people.

Finland is not, any more than Canada, heaven on earth. Would disturbed/vicious individuals use firearms in this way if they did not have the example of the US? I've always wondered whether people with psychoses would have delusions about supreme beings telling them what to do if there were no religions. Fact is: they do, and there are, and we'll never know. Not a lot of point in pointing fingers while the bullets fly.


The laws are basically OK, no need to project the US polemics in circumstances where they don't apply - or would not if not the mental assimilation and indoctrination.

If Finland chooses not to restrict access to weapons like the one used in the event under discussion, it won't matter who the hell's fault it is -- there will very likely be more crimes committed with handguns and more murders committed with handguns.

I'm used to it being our USAmerican friends who are so eager to play the blame game.

Laying blame usually accomplishes very little when it comes to solving problems.

This is an interconnected world now. It comes with both benefits and costs. I agree with you that the propagation of US mass culture around the globe, in the pursuit of profit and at the expense of indigenous cultures, is horrible. But that barn door has been opened. And a society that allows easy access to firearms, handguns in particular, is going to find itself with problems, even if it "shouldn't".

[tama]

41. Agreed

"This is an interconnected world now. It comes with both benefits and costs. I agree with you that the propagation of US mass culture around the globe, in the pursuit of profit and at the expense of indigenous cultures, is horrible. But that barn door has been opened. And a society that allows easy access to firearms, handguns in particular, is going to find itself with problems, even if it "shouldn't"."

And if it was up to my, only hunting with bow and spear would we allowed. I'm not a technonut.

[brentspeak]

67. Finland, despite all its many virtues, doesn't exactly have

a non-violent past: lots of atrocities committed against one-another during the Finnish Civil War, for example.

[cabluedem]

92. They also have a long history of alcohol abuse too. Guns and booze don't mix well.

[spoony]

30. A perfect example of what I was talking about.

And a perfect example of why we'll never get anywhere with this problem.

[slackmaster]

64. Yes, when the extreme, unworkable positions monopolize the debate there can be no progress

Too bad so many firearm-related discussions get disrupted by idealogues and outside agitators.

[JonQ]

39. That explains why switzerland

is in a perpetual bloodbath, one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world. Remember to stay the hell away from that place.

[iverglas]

47. how educated and well-informed you are!

Not.

Just some quickie wiki for you, since you seem sorely in need of something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
(population: approx 7.5 million)

It is claimed that approximately 300 deaths per year involve the use of Swiss army guns, mostly suicides and family murders. As a result of this and similar media reports, gun control advocates are trying to halt the practice of military weapons issuance and storage in the private homes of Swiss Army members. Gun supporters question the statistics and the practice has become a political issue. As of October 2007, the issuing of personal ammunition after boot camp has been discontinued and a majority of the already issued packs will be withdrawn within 2008.

... Police statistics for the year 2006 records 34 killings or attempted killings involving firearms, compared to 69 cases involving bladed weapons and 16 cases of unarmed assault. Cases of assault resulting in bodily harm numbered 89 (firearms) and 526 (bladed weapons). This represents a decline of aggravated assaults involving firearms since the early 1990s. Some 300 deaths per year are due to legally held army ordinance weapons, the large majority of these being suicides. The majority of gun crimes involving domestic violence are perpetrated with army ordinance weapons, while the majority of gun crime outside the domestic sphere involves illegally held firearms.

But who cares about family members killing themselves, and women getting killed by their intimate partners, eh? As long as the numbers can be concealed in some kinda low crime rate smokescreen ...

[JonQ]

60. The whole story . . .

Police statistics for the year 2006<11> records 34 killings or attempted killings involving firearms, compared to 69 cases involving bladed weapons and 16 cases of unarmed assault. Cases of assault resulting in bodily harm numbered 89 (firearms) and 526 (bladed weapons). This represents a decline of aggravated assaults involving firearms since the early 1990s. Some 300 deaths per year are due to legally held army ordinance weapons, the large majority of these being suicides. The majority of gun crimes involving domestic violence are perpetrated with army ordinance weapons, while the majority of gun crime outside the domestic sphere involves illegally held firearms.

-------------


They also have one of the lowest firearm related crime rates in the world.

It's pretty dishonest to include suicides with the stats for murder, and I suspect you know that.

[iverglas]

66. wow, talk about dishonest

It's pretty dishonest to include suicides with the stats for murder, and I suspect you know that.

I'd say you have practised the art long and hard.

If you genuinely consider reproducing text that cites facts dishonest, though, maybe your problem lies elsewhere.

[JonQ]

71. So in your mind

suicides and murders are the same thing? The intentional taking of anothers life against their will vs. taking your own life voluntarily and harming no one else in the process, these two things are identical to you?

I guess they are, in the same way stealing and murdering someone elses baby is the same thing as abortion.

[iverglas]

72. so, in your mind

making shit up and pretending someone else said it isn't lying?

Guess so.

[JonQ]

73. Are you now reversing your previous position

and saying that suicides and murders are not the same thing and thus should not be lumped together? If so I thoroughly appreciate your movement towards reality, but you will need to make your transition clear lest people accuse you of hypocrisy.

[iverglas]

74. are you adhering to a lie?

Looks like.

[JonQ]

75. This is getting tedious

do you believe suicides should be included along with murders for gun statistics or not?

[iverglas]

78. why do you ask?

What is your evidentiary basis for this question? What reason do you have for asking it? Why would you think / state / imply that I do believe what you are asking me whether I believe?

Suicides are facts. Homicides are facts. Some suicides are by firearm. Some homicides are by firearm. Those are facts. Stating facts is stating facts.

I'd like to go back to your own initial statement:

That explains why switzerland is in a perpetual bloodbath, one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world. Remember to stay the hell away from that place.

I'm not seeing the word "murder(s)" there.

I'm also not seeing anything in any of my replies that is problematic in any way.

If you would like to spit the mealies out of your mouth and STATE WHAT YOUR PROBLEM IS, do feel free.

[JonQ]

89. You included

suicides in with murders to make it appear as if Switzerland were a dangerous place. You see I was being sarcastic with my first statement, not meant to be taken literally. Meaning that I don't think it'd be necessary to avoid the place for fear for your life. I doubt you're likely to get chased down while visiting there, have an assault rifle forced in to your hands, and be have no choice but to kill yourself. Do you understand the distinction now?

[iverglas]

94. you're just stating things that are not tru

You included suicides in with murders to make it appear as if Switzerland were a dangerous place.

I quoted a passage from a wiki article reporting deaths and injuries by firearm in Switzerland.

I did this in response to your sarcastic statement regarding a "bloodbath" in Switzerland.

You said nothing about homicide.

I DID NOT "include" anything in with anything else "to make it appear as if" anything were anything. Frankly, had I actually been trying to make something appear as if it were something else, I could obviously have hoped for success only if my audience were composed of morons, since the wiki article DISTINGUISHED CLEARLY among the various situations presented. I can't even begin to imagine who could read a passage stating facts about suicides and homicides separately, and think they were the same thing.

I said nothing about Switzerland being "a dangerous place", and you have no basis for claiming I did. My remarks, and the documentation, were on the subject of the use of firearms to cause death and injury in Switzerland.

Do you understand the nature of civil discourse, and the disgust I feel at someone who goes to these lengths to misrepresent reality?

[Pavulon]

61. How many suicides in japan??

no guns there..

[cabluedem]

88. True enough.

[JonQ]

25. A shooting in Finland

is Americas fault because we have the NRA, and bush.

A bit of a stretch.

Sometimes bad things happen that the US didn't directly cause, or even indirectly. I know, it's hard to hear but it's true. In fact, I've been doing some research and it seems bad things happened around the world prior to 2000, and even prior to 1776.

[Occulus]

28. Look upthread

Apparently, the NRA is active in Finland, too. If you look at their page, the head of the NRA in the US sent them an official greeting.

And, yes, I do blame that organization to an extent, for both the proliferation of HANDguns, both here and elsewhere, and the easy access disturbed individuals have to HANDguns.

NOT shotguns or hunting rifles- HANDguns.

[JonQ]

35. So if bush weren't president

we wouldn't have a group dedicated to the preservation of the 2nd amendment (which pre-dated him) which then wouldn't have been able to found a group in Norway with similar beliefs (a main one being the responsible use of firearms in self-defense, not in the commission of a crime), that in turn forced this otherwise harmless and well-adjusted man to use a gun illegally to kill a whole bunch of people very much against his will.

Yes, I see the logic now.

[tama]

37. Blaming bush

for everything and anything liberates from all responsibility and preserves the innocence of the manifest destiny. So why not?

[JonQ]

38. Hmm

I didn't win the lottery this week, and you know who is president. Clearly he did this to me. Why!

I mean the odds are staggering anyway, and I don't play, and he has no control over it, but I still blame him because it makes me feel better.

[tama]

29. And Hollywood n/t

[superconnected]

31. I think his point was finland also has NRA thanks to bushco.

[tama]

32. I live here

and Finland, indigenous non-indoeuropean group of ugric tribes has been occupied and assimilated by the European Borg for hundreds of years. Occupied and subjugated peoples copycat their conquerors, that's what we do - besides boozing and suiciding to cope with the anxiety of loosing connection with our roots.

Empire - any empire - doesn't give a shit about how the subjugated feel and who and what they are. They allways know best, they are the Guardians of Universal Truth.

PS Edit: Finns have very close connection to Native Americans - we are of the same origin, same root, after all. What is the real horryfying thing is not the occupation, but the assimilation, that we are becoming like you, our conquorers - the Europeans and their Colonials.

[iverglas]

34. now I know

-- you're in Finland.

I am not familiar with the activities of the Finnish NRA, obviously, or what influence it may have had on Finnish firearms policy.

There's an equivalent in Canada as well. The thing is, it has had virtually zero influence on firearms policy (although that may change if the current election results in a strengthened Conservative Party government).

Restrictions on access to firearms generally come about in response to incidents such as these. If your domestic NRA agitates against such restrictions and brings enough political pressure to bear that it succeeds, then you would plainly have a point.

[EmilyAnne]

45. I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense to me.

Are you now blaming Europeans? Americans? USAns? The NRA? Do you think the NRA just invaded Finland one day, renting a nice, big office in Helsinki and staffing it with US members? The NRA was invited in by some gun-loving Finns.

What would have given you the impression that US citizens and the Finnish people were ever so dissimilar?

[tama]

56. I know

many things don't make sense to you, and sorry, I can't help. Even with all this globalization, europeanizing and the rest of the assimilation, there are still some cultural and linguistic gaps that defy translation*. Thank gods for those!!!

*Easy and fast translation, not meaning getting personally lost in translation body and mind and then reborn without or severly weakened personhood... :)

[wvbygod]

42. How long before the weapon used is blamed?

10, 9, 8....

[tama]

43. Anything

but to take a look in the mirror.

[EmilyAnne]

46. Are you able to do that, tama? To take a look at your self in the mirror?

I am extremely sorry about this shooting in Finland. I love Finland and have been there many times having lived in Saint Petersburg. I simply do not understand the connection to the United States aside from some Finnish people opening a chapter of the NRA. It makes no sense,

[tama]

54. The connection

is what a professor of anthropology enlightened me about. In globalized society of mass culture everything comes from America, he and his class have been trying but they have not been able to come up with anything recent that didn't come via America, if not invented in America. Like pizza, like reality TW, like school killings, etc. etc. etc. It's just how the globalized empire works, even we non-citizen subject of Empire know America (or the projected image of) better than our own land and language.

Yes, it's very very very sad.

[WriteDown]

76. This is a fallacy...

blaming everything on the USA only allows people to shift all blame on themselves. Sure, America has some cultural exports, but look at the popularization of Ikea in the US. Maybe we should blame the swedish for the prevalence of cheap, particle board furniture.

[tama]

79. I agree

that shifting blame to avoid accepting responsibility is allways a fallacy.

[tama]

58. I will share a secret

Mirrors are still pretty easy, and not even dying is very difficult. Dying again and again can be a bitch. And at that point the mirror becomes again pretty hard to face, only way to do that is to accept death again. :)

[iverglas]

48. I give up; about when

gun militants stop being disingenuous deceitful assholes?

No, actually, that's within the realm of possibility, if only slightly.

The chance of a sane person (surely you're not addressing or speaking about people suffering from delusions) "blaming" an inanimate object for an event would be, well, nil.

[Selatius]

44. The question is why do mentally disturbed people have access to firearms.

Like the V-Tech shooter, if these people had been addressed before they shot up their schools or workplaces, then nobody would be going home in a body bag be it from a knife or homemade bomb or a firearm.

[iverglas]

51. isn't it unfortunate

that mentally disturbed people aren't born with third eyes or something?

Then we'd all know who they are, and make sure they didn't get guns. Oh, unless they, like, got their daddy's gun when he didn't lock it up, or bought one on the streetcorner that somebody else's daddy didn't lock up, or covered their extra eye up with their hair, or something.

As long as anybody has access to handguns -- those being what is overwhelmingly used in these events -- mentally disturbed people will have access to handguns.

We can all wring our hands and say that dead children and young people and terrorized and traumatized communities are the price of our freedumb, or we can do something about it.

[Selatius]

55. The point is somebody like the V-Tech shooter should've gotten help earlier.

Guns would not have entered the equation if it weren't for the fact that there is no comprehensive health care system in place at all. He was already known to the medical authorities because of prior referrals by mental health professionals, yet he fell through the cracks and shot up his school. You've got 18,000 Americans who are dying each year unnecessarily as a result of a failed health care system.

Even if guns didn't exist in Finland, what would stop this person from buying a propane tank and rigging it to blow up or turning a car into a car bomb? The answer is a functioning health care system that addresses mental health issues in addition to other health issues.

[iverglas]

57. sorry, no

Guns would not have entered the equation if it weren't for the fact that there is no comprehensive health care system in place at all.

You should have a decent health care system -- universal coverage, public, single-payer health insurance. I will never say otherwise.

But the fact is that NO health care system is 100% foolproof when it comes to identifying and dealing with people who decide one day to kill as many other people as they can.





http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/09/15/kimveergill_narrowweb__300x363,0.jpg






Quebec has a full-service health care system. Kimveer Gill got a restricted firearms licence and practised at the gun club he had to join to get the licence, and posted those photos of himself playing with his gunz in mummy's and daddy's rec room on line, and then went to Dawson College two years ago and shot a bunch of people. He could have had all the psychiatry he could eat, but he didn't.

The purpose of a health care system is not to prevent people from shooting other people. It is to deliver health care. Relying on a health care system to protect one's self from disturbed or angry or greedy people with guns isn't really very sensible. In fact, I'd call blaming the lack of a decent health care system for events like this a giant cop-out, even if such events do look like handy items to use in pointing out the inadequacies of the existing health care system.

[Pavulon]

62. It is so hard to get hookers, dope or

pirated movies. You can even get a hooker to deliver the others to your home or hotel.

You think a gun ban will do shit other than lock in a republican win.

Fucked up people can mix two common things and make a bomb too.

[iverglas]

63. you seem to think you were talking to me

You think a gun ban will do shit other than lock in a republican win.

(Are there Republicans in Finland??? None here in Canada ...)

Maybe if I read your sentence upside down in a mirror it will make sense somewhere. Through that looking glass, perhaps.


Fucked up people can mix two common things and make a bomb too.

And yet ... so often they don't ...

[Pavulon]

68. Path of least resistance

it is easier to shoot people than blow them up. However if you want to kill lots of people in a confined space explosives made at home seem to work. See people blown to bits in israel while eating out.

It is also illegal, like whores, drugs, and stealing cars. All banned!

All a common practice. Why should I pay the price for some asshole who is going to do something illegal with an illegal weapon.

You going to ban knives because someone got their head lopped off on a bus? Or should we ban buses?

[iverglas]

70. and murder!

It is also illegal, like whores, drugs, and stealing cars. All banned!

Don't forget murder! and robbery! and oooh, the biggy -- rape!

But alcohol seems to be flowing freely.

[cabluedem]

93. Alcohol and firearms. Both easily available in the US or Finland.

No connection, of course.:eyes:

[cabluedem]

91. Even when family KNOWS that a mentally ill person has a firearm, they often do nothing..

about it, until its too late and someone is dead.

I have read about that happening too often over the years.

[slackmaster]

52. Finland has a licensing system for gun owners and registration requirement for all firearms

They have exactly the same kinds of "sensible gun control" measures that many US gun control proponents want.

The Wiki article is kind of sketchy, but it does give the overall picture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Finland

In any case, not just anyone can go walk into their neighborhood Laplander Quikki Mart and buy explosives or a machine gun. You can't buy any firearm (other than black powder muzzle-loaders) without having some kind of officially recognized valid reason.

[tama]

59. Just remembered

how this started in Finland. There was a young very disturbed woman few years back who started shooting around at a Finnish gun club practice area. While firing off she muttered something about being in the CIA. I guess she's still pilled up in some mental asylum.

[LeftishBrit]

50. Tragic and shocking

But I really don't see how Bush can be blamed for this one.

[slackmaster]

53. This is DU

Bush gets blamed for the weather.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

90. You do know Finland is not in the United States, right.

[iverglas]

65. " Finland deaths spark gun law call"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7632661.stm

Finland's prime minister has called for gun laws to be tightened after a school shooting that left 11 people dead.

Matti Vanhanen said he believed handguns should no longer be used outside shooting ranges.

... "In terms of handguns that can easily be carried about, we have to think about whether they should be available for private people. In my opinion, they belong on shooting ranges."

And in the opinion of reasonable people everywhere.

[Pavulon]

69. good thing we dont live in finland

want to hear palin and mccain for 4 years, push this in the US. Fastest way to put them in office.

Seems like you can hit youtube and get a step by step to make TATP (currently used by suicide bombers). Going to ban that too, oh you cant ban everything.

Their country, they can ban what they like. Note the source for this asshole. Two little shits in the US who shot up their school on hitlers birthday.

Ban handguns, fuckups will use shotguns. Like banning drugs, worked great so far.