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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 09:51 PM
Original message
Russian strategic bombers land in Venezuela
Source: Associated Press

- Two Russian strategic bombers landed in Venezuela on Wednesday as part of military maneuvers, President Hugo Chavez said, welcoming the unprecedented deployment at a time of increasing tensions between Moscow and the U.S.

The Venezuelan leader said the two Russian Tu-160 bombers will conduct maneuvers and that he hopes to "fly one of those things" himself.

Russian military analysts said it was the first time Russian strategic bombers have landed in the Western Hemisphere since the Cold War. The provocative foray into Venezuela was certain to add to the strain in U.S.-Russian relations created over Russia's war in Georgia.

Chavez called the deployment part of a move toward a "pluri-polar world" — a reference to moving away from U.S. dominance. "The Yankee hegemony is finished," Chavez said in a televised speech.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080911/ap_on_re_eu/russia_venezuela_bombers
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navarth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. That's just fucking great.
Putin and Chavez are trying to get McSame elected.
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azul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. How do you think criminal regime gangs stay in power?
They scare each other's populace and get to militarize and declare emergency powers.

Just guessing what I would do if I were in charge, and criminally inclined, what with the secrecy powers and intelligence armies and media control, if a symbiosis were possible with a similar competing regime.

If you can't beat them, join them. Criminals fear losing power and facing justice, and would bargain with almost any one, I would expect. And this way they don't really have to fight, bluster is good enough to secure the field, if there is enough spoils to go around.

Sort of seems to possibly fit the facts of this oil-wars madness?
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conspirator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. That is correct. During French revolution, Marie Antoinette wrote letters
to the Austrian king, who was her brother, in order to send the Austrian army to kill the french peasants. The elite doesn't care about their own nation or people, they only care about power.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Only for the schizophrenics
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. Both are oil whores
russia is a huge supplier of petro and benefits from a high price. Hugo is pretty well tied in to the oil racket, if it keeps dropping he may just end up dead.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. You nailed it Pavulon n/t
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freedomnorth Donating Member (237 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. So whore is the one giving
not the one receiving?
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
16. Speaking of whores ...
... nice to see that you two turned up on time for a thread that
mentions Chavez ... just for a change ...
:eyes:
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. Your wishful thinking is disturbing.
And if Russia and Venezuela are oil whores, what does that make us?
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Were the John
and were are getting fucked, thats for sure. Russia poisons people with dioxin to manipulate elections. Chavez has a messy 3rd world nation and dropping crude prices.

Sounds like a problem for him. I am sure the Russians are just there to help...

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
29. Still wrong. If Chavez ends up dead it will be because your Torture president
spent your money to kill him.

He's diversifying the Venezuela economy a lot faster than we're do anything to mend ours. And every single post you make about Chavez just illustrates how little you know about Venezuela. Is that you, Condi?
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Read up..
Our GDP is greater than the entire LA block. We shed more wealth than VZ makes in a year during corrections.

US policy under every administration since 46 will put him in the ground if he brings the russians in. That is fact.

Diversify into what exactly? VZ is a third world nation that runs on petro. They are a CONSUMER of russian or american technology.

They do not make anything that is resold internationally.

I dont make policy nor do you, but you could read up on the subject rather than approach me like I am sitting around calling the shots down there.
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CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. Are we going back to the proxy wars during the Cold War again
in Latin America? :puke:
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MadrasT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. Oh, yay. We're arguing about fucking lipstick
while the economy is making it's final circles around the drain and the rest of the world prepares to pounce on the corpse.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. if Hugo does fly a plane
do you think he'll look any better in his jumpsuit than Bush did?

I don't
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kirby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Its all in the codpiece... n/t
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. thanks for that image
I need to go drip bleach in my ears to get that out of my mind
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Chipper Chat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. Bush might use the Monroe Doctrine to threaten Putey-Poot.
But first Dana will have to explain to him what the Monroe Doctrine is.
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Oldtimeralso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. GWB "What does a dead movie star got to do with this?" n/t
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TheLastMohican Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. If you haven't noticed
Pooty-Poot is not easily threatened, moreover he likes threats, especially from the impotent repukes.
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. In that case, Vlad will whip out his "Putin Doctrine"
Which is basically "Fuck you".
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. Old game..Played for years
we will start flipping governments in LA. It will be televised and there will be no question about if we did it and who we put in charge. Some general will pop hugo in the head and take his job.

However this path is bad for the people who have to live in those countries. They suffered during the cold war.

If Russia comes into play they will suffer again.
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navarth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
21. What makes you think Dana "Press Barbie" will know what the Monroe Doctrine is?
DOUBT IT
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Chipper Chat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Dana's reaction to the Monroe Doctrine:
"Karl, you'll have to refresh me. I really don't know much about Marilyn Monroe. She was a Democrat, you know."
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
15. South America's oil is basically undefended, just sitting there for the taking--
especially (and, I imagine, most tempting of all), the big oil reserves right on the Caribbean, adjacent to Colombia (Bush Cartel client state), in the oil-rich province of Zulia, Venezuela. South American leaders are concerned about the Bushwhacks' reconstitution of the U.S. 4th Fleet, now roaming off of that very coast. Ecuador's president, Rafael Correa, says there is a three-country Bushite strategy--Bolivia, Venezuela, Ecuador--to foment fascist secessionist movements, and split off the oil-rich provinces into fascist mini-states that the multinationals can plunder. This strategy is active and on-going in Bolivia, which just threw the U.S. ambassador Philip Goldberg out of the country, for funding and supporting the white separatists who are (insanely) trying to rip the country to pieces, to split off the gas/oil rich eastern provinces into autonomous states. (--insane because Argentina and Brazil, their main gas customers, have said they will not trade with secessionist states, and also because there is plenty of gas riches for everyone, due to Evo Morales re-negotiation of the gas contracts, DOUBLING Bolivia's revenues from $1 billion/yr to $2 billion/yr.)

Brazil has proposed a South American common defense, in connection with the newly forming South American "Common Market" (neither thing--the common defense or the common market--to include the U.S.). They're all nervous about the intentions of the 4th Fleet, and livid about the interference in Bolivia. We must remember that the U.S./Colombia just this year violated Ecuador's territory, with a bombing/raid, nearly starting a war between Colombia and Ecuador--an incident that infuriated all Latin American leaders. And the U.S. has been doing illegal flyovers of Venezuelan territory near Zulia.

So-o-o-o, it doesn't surprise me that Chavez is looking for allies. He has many allies in South America, but none of them has much of a military. Nor does Venezuela. And a common defense is planned but not a reality yet. These maneuvers with Russia are more of a deterrent than they are a provocation. It says: "We are not defenseless."

Lula da Silva, president of Brazil, recently said, of Chavez: "You can criticize Chavez on a lot of things, but not on democracy." I wonder why the anti-Chavez posters never address things like this--strong evidence that Chavez is a democrat with a small d, and not the "tyrant" that the Bushwhacks and their lying Corpo media try to convince us that he is. It's puzzling. They go right along with the propaganda. But, anyway, it's possible that one of the things that Lulu would criticize Chavez for would be something like this--sticking it to "the Empire" so directly. On the other hand, Lulu called Chavez "the great peacemaker" for his efforts to de-fuse the war that the Bushwhacks were obviously trying to start with Ecuador (and Venezuela). So, again, I think Chavez is being defensive, not provocative. And I think he is a good gage of what the other leaders are thinking but not saying. Also, he is more active--he goes and does what they may be only in the talking stages of doing. They are thinking--and talking among themselves--about how to defend South America against U.S. belligerence, and he goes to Russia, buys fighter jets, and invites Russia to give a demonstration, here.

We should be wary of thinking of Chavez as "isolated." He is not. It is the Bushwhacks who are isolated, in South America. Chavez has support in Venezuela (his approval rating runs about 60%), was elected and re-elected in transparent, internationally monitored elections, and has widespread respect and influence throughout South America, including many warm friendships with other leaders. He even got Bush tool, Alvaro Uribe, in Colombia, to back off with the Bushite psyops/slander about Chavez supporting "terrorists." (They had a "bury the hatchet" meeting in Caracas, at which they announced joint projects including a new railroad.)

I noticed a remark, above, by an anti-Chavez poster, to the effect that Chavez is just an oil racketeer--and, if the oil market collapses, will get assassinated. This kind of thinking greatly underestimates what Chavez has done, which is, for the first time in Venezuela's and in South America's history, to use a natural resource to build democracy and promote social justice. The education of the poor--being paid for by the oil profits--and all the other forward-thinking benefits that those profits are being put to (medical care, fostering small business and manufacturing, land reform, regional infrastructure), will pay off in diversified prosperity in the future. The other alternative is for the oil profits to fatten the coffers of Exxon Mobil & brethren and South American fascists, who don't give a fuck for the future of Venezuela or any country. The local fascists have utterly neglected their own societes. The global fascists suck up resources and give nothing back.

So, you can call Chavez a mere oil racketeer--and there is some truth to the fact that his policies, and his popularity, are boosted by having money to do beneficial things. Or you can see the broader picture: What better use could oil profits be put to, than bootstrapping South American's vast poor population? If a prosperous and progressive South America is to occur, it has to be bootstrapped--because of decades of looting, exploitation and ruination by the likes of Exxon Mobil. The oil profits are a fortuitous circumstance for advancing a progressive agenda. And Chavez and his government have had the smarts (and the courage) to negotiate the oil resource in Venezuela's favor, and the Venezuelan voters clearly approve of that smart policy.

What else should he do? Give all the profits to Dick Cheney's pals?

This criticism is so narrow-viewed, and so stupid, actually, that it never entertains the other alternative. What should the oil profits be used for, other than benefiting the poor majority with services that improve their ability to work, to create businesses and co-ops, and to advance themselves, and developing all of the elements needed to diversify?

That is not really "oil racketeering." It is productive. And it shows in Venezuela's nearly 10% economic growth rate over the last five years, with the most growth in the private sector (not including oil). That's what windfall profits should be used for--to develop other productive capacities. I can see no fault in it, other than the environmental danger that oil use and development pose. And the Chavez government--and all the other many leftist governments in South America--are infinitely better on environmental issues than previous rightwing regimes.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. "I wonder why the anti-Chavez posters never address things like this"
Edited on Thu Sep-11-08 10:26 AM by redqueen
They're too busy calling him a dictator.

It'd be amusing if they were kids. As it is, though...
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navarth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. nice post. n/t
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. Great post! Thanks. n/t
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
20. Multi-polar worlds where centers of power expand and grow in an effort
to increase their power always seem to end up as a uni-polar world. Diversity being what it is, that uni-polar world eventually breaks apart. Then the process just continues to go around and around, never quite getting anywhere. Multi-polar worlds and globalization don't really work. Too much waste. Not nearly efficient enough to do what is needed to be done. That's why we get large scale, organized war; to destroy diversity, and create sameness, so that production can be maximized.

Either way, it'll be a fun century.
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Mike Daniels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
22. Wow. I guess Bush and Cheney really showed Putin
I imagine now that the FReeps have their dicks at full salute at the possibility of a show down between the US and Venezuela/Russia.

Of course, none of them plan on signing up at the recruiting station should the shit really hit the fan.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. If the shit really hits the fan they and their hardons will be
irradiated meat, just like the rest of us.
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