French woman to sue Church of Scientology for 'organised fraud'

[emad]

Source: telegraph

The Church of Scientology in France and seven of its leaders is to be tried for alleged organised fraud.
By Henry Samuel in Paris
Last Updated: 7:07PM BST 08 Sep 2008

If found guilty it could result in the controversial body’s main centres being closed down.

The charges, which also include claims of illegally prescribing drugs, were filed by a woman who complained that the Scientologists had allegedly brought about her financial ruin.

She claimed she was psychologically pressured into paying thousands of pounds for lessons, books, drugs and a device called an “electrometre” which the church says can measure a person’s mental state.


Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/2706707/French-woman-to-sue-Church-of-Scientology-for-organised-fraud.html

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10 years to come to court after powerful lobbying...

[Eurobabe]

1. To work in Germany you have to sign a document

that says you are not a member of this sect, and you have no intention of ever joining it.

[Flarney]

2. Couldn't any church be sued for that? :-P n/t

[mulsh]

3. Scientology provides a handy price list, at least they used to

When a former friend signed me up for "info" thirty years ago they kept sending me their programs with prices included, at the time it was around 4k to get "clear". Most other religions have some form a tithe, around 10% of one's annual income seems standard with most religions.

oh I never signed up for Scientology, read Dianetics and lost that friend when I pointed out that all Hubbard did was expand a bit on painfully obvious stuff and that I didn't appreciate getting stuck on a ponzi scheme's junk mail list.

[pnwmom]

7. Most other churches don't deny pastoral care or church services to people

based on set (and exorbitant) charges.

Most other churches instead have a "pass the plate" policy.

Most other churches aren't cults attempting to cut their adherents off from the rest of the world, and operating in secrecy.

Most other churches don't have their own "voluntary" mini-jails.

You should do some research about Scientology.

[dbonds]

8. Can't catholics buy their way out of sin?

There used to be a price list for them, not sure if they still use it.

[pnwmom]

9. No. Several hundred years ago they did have the concept of paid "indulgences."

But a lot of things were different several hundred years ago.

[mulsh]

23. why didn't you provide this handy research link?

http://www.xenu.net/

[pnwmom]

13. Most people who don't like the practices of their church just leave that church

and find another.

Scientology makes that very difficult.

[Zhade]

32. They should be, but scientology is more concrete in their scheming.

NT!

[Arugula Latte]

38. No kidding -- Religion is the biggest scam going, and has been for centuries.

[benld74]

4. Sacre Bleau!

[tanyev]

5. Wha? I thought they were opposed to prescription drugs?

[progressoid]

24. They're not drugs. They're "purification packs".

:eyes: There's a difference :eyes:

[Doctor Cynic]

6. I hope the court gets Rick Rolled.

[JonQ]

10. I could see suing for illegally selling prescription drugs

But pressuring someone in to buying books, lessons, etc for a religion that she voluntarily joined seems legal. I'm assuming they didn't pressure her by making death threats against her or anything like that.

Granted it's a BS religion, and it certainly seems like a scheme to make money for the people at the top. But ultimately, unless she is found to be mentally incompetent, she is responsible for her own actions, no matter how persuasive they may have been.

[pnwmom]

11. This is France, not the U.S.

Perhaps in France it IS illegal to test people for their individual psychological weaknesses, then systematically extort money from them -- using the knowledge gained in testing -- to "heal" these weaknesses.

The French culture is anti-cleric and very much pro separation-of-church-and-state, by the way. As an American, I don't think I'd be in much of a position to guess what the French courts will decide on the issue of Scientology. Their culture is different from ours.

[JonQ]

14. I know

I was thinking about how it would play out here. I have no idea how the French courts tend to rule in these cases, and I don't know the relevant French laws so I couldn't say how this will end.

[pnwmom]

18. Here, I think you're right.

We're stuck with them. Even if certain individuals were convicted of specific crimes, the rest of the "church" would remain.

[Joe Chi Minh]

12. Like the German courts, the opinion of the French courts may differ from

your perception.

[JonQ]

15. And they're free to do so

as I am free to question the correctness of their actions. In Germany possession of certain literature is illegal, just for example. And while I can see why they came up with such laws, I still don't agree with them as I find them to be an unnecessary violation of speech.

But I doubt I will be consulted on this case.

BTW, I was just giving my opinion, why the snide reply? It doesn't really seem justified.

[Joe Chi Minh]

17. Well, I tend not to feel sympathetic towards people who are sympathetic to

cults which seem to have a very bad name, notably, Scientology. That's one reason. I question your sense and/or character on that basis.

The other thing is, you expressed your opinion a shade dogmatically, I thought - as if you were implying that the European Court of Human Rights, or some such body, would take note of your opinion and duly deal with the French authorities. It may sound odd, but if you are just a naive young person, I'm genuinely sorry if it offends you.

A good few years ago now, there was a former Tory minister in Thatcher's Government who interviewed the chief of the Scientologists at the time - he'd been his second-in-command, I believe.

I had no time for this man, Mellor, a QC (barrister), but he absolutely demolished our friend, so that, to the best of my recollection, he was virtually rendered speechless. It truly was the most devastating performance you could imagine. In fact, I can honestly say, I don't believe there has ever existed a barrister, any human being, who could have spoken with such ferocity and to such devastating purpose on that theme. It was a forensic "tour de force". I dare say Mr Hubbard's erstwhile side-kick would share my opinion.

[JonQ]

21. Who says I'm sympathetic to Scientologists?

I think they're nuts. I just don't think starting a crazy cult should necessarily be illegal. I'm not a fan of mormons either, but I don't think they should be thrown in jail or fined.

This isn't about whether their religion is based in reality or absurdity, it's about individuals apparently being unable to function on their own.

And you can keep the insults to yourself, I don't use them so there's no reason you should.

[arikara]

26. There is a difference between a crazy cult

and one that uses mind control techniques to recruit and rip off its members.

Actually come to think of it, most of them do that.

[JonQ]

27. Mind control?

Really? You're joking right?

Being really persistent and loud =! mind control.

[Joe Chi Minh]

30. Your post is a long insulting diatribe. Not against me, it's true, but

I don't think I'm the only person who matters.

[JonQ]

35. An insulting diabtribe

against people, who are apparently unable to function in society, who probably ought to be kept isolated and protected by adults for their own good.

Meh, I can live with that.

[Joe Chi Minh]

37. I don't doubt you can for one moment. Pride always comes before a fall (there

are no exceptions), and you're heading for one almighty one.

[JonQ]

39. Yep

that is very probable, and logical. You clearly have a firm grasp of reality.

[JonQ]

40. BTW

would you care to share your own story, of how these evil tricksters got all your money? I'm kind of curious.

[JonQ]

25. For instance

the ACLU defends nazis, that doesn't mean they like or agree with them. I don't believe people should be able to legally blame others for their own stupidity. Giving someone your money because they asked for it, then lamenting that you are now broke is a sign of stupidity.

And in retrospect, perhaps you weren't intending to be insulting. But you do kind of come off as needlessly rude in your previous posts. If that wasn't intended then I won't take it as such.

[Joe Chi Minh]

28. Good. I just want to point things out to you. Such as the fact that I deplore your

arrogant attitude to people who are taken in by confidence tricksters. And you have the gall to whine because you think someone's having a go at you!? There is no worse or pitiable form of stupidity than to be wise in your own conceit and arrogantly so, to boot. If you are not a scientologist already, perhaps you'll find it a spiritual haven. I take you to be a young person, with all the arrogance of youth, so things might not be quite as dire as they seem.

I don't care what the ACLU does or doesn't in this context. They evidently perform sterling work, but they are barristers who, equally evidently, have to work under your (like ours) depraved adversarial, legal system. Personally, I think they are mistaken in defending people who would violently oppress others. I'm not ambivalent about that at all.

[JonQ]

34. Hmm

you were tricked by scientologists or some similiar group weren't you? Or perhaps a friend, loved one?

You're right, I don't have much respect for people who trick themselves in to giving away money to obvious scams. Like the folks who fall for the "nigerian prince who just needs your bank account" scam. At least in that case there is a legitimate claim of fraud because they didn't give you what they promised, still idiots though. But if you promise something vague, like happiness, in exchange for money and (here's the catch) believing strongly enough in a religion, then you can't really prove fraud. You just didn't believe hard enough, or give enough, or maybe you really are happy you just didn't recognize it. We aren't talking about used car-salesmen running down the odometer and tricking a customer. This individual made very poor choices, but assuming she is a mentally competent adult, they were her own fault, and now she wants someone else to fix it for her.

At some point you *are* responsible for your own life, don't you agree? If not, go ahead and send me a private message with your personal info, bank account number, etc, and I "promise" that I will teach you about self-reliance.

[Apollo11]

36. You seem to be lacking in empathy

I have seen how members (or employees) of the Church of Scientology stop people in the street and offer them a "free stress test" using this supposedly scientific device. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-meter

Some say that Scientology is a business enterprise that makes money out of gullible and vulnerable people, and that it uses unreasonable pressure tactics to prevent people leaving the "church".

See also this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_as_a_business

[JonQ]

41. To be empathetic

I'd either have to have gone through the same thing (knowingly giving my money to a third party in exchange for nothing, then demanding that the government step in a save me) or believe myself capable to act in such a manner. I think you meant sympathetic. And no, I'm not.

Of course it's a scam, everyone can see that. Which is why I don't really feel that bad for people who willingly join in on the scam.

If this lady had piled all her money together, and burned it because she thought it might make her feel better, would you have much sympathy when she realizes she's now broke?

I believe adults ought to be treated as adults, not children.

[Joe Chi Minh]

42. No. he meant, "empathetic." It's a dumb mammal thing. Sometimes

the dumb beasts feel such a crazy weakness for suffering human beings or other creatures.

Are you by any chance studying to be a lawyer? I can see a very bright future for you there. Maybe, then, on to the giddy heights of Republican politics.

[JonQ]

44. I tend to save sympathy

for those who deserve it.

Out of curiosity, do you believe that adult human beings ("dumb mammals"), are at any point responsible for their own actions? Obviously you don't believe this woman was capable of making her own decision, does that apply to everyone in your estimate?

For instance, are you capable of making your own decisions, or do you mindlessly follow the edicts of others?

[Joe Chi Minh]

46. JQ, you seem particularly obtuse, and arguing with a fool only makes

two fools. So I'll just leave you to continue despising us dumb mammals, who, in our hapless, stumbling, purblind folly, feel compassion for other creatures in distress, without making it conditional upon their possessing a sufficiently high IQ. Alas, we all lack that finely-honed critical faculty acceptable to you.

[JonQ]

47. No

"we all" don't like sufficient IQ. Just a select few, and their enablers. I look forward to receiving your financial info. I promise I'll be sympathetic afterwards, if that helps.

[Joe Chi Minh]

43. I wrte a quite long satirical reply to your question, recommending that

you read the poem, The Ancient Mariner, to get you in the mood to hear my tale of terrrrible woe. But the moderator seemsto have thought I was taking the rise a little too much. Lucky you.

I've never had two pennies to rub together! But I know that one day, we'll all discover that what you consider to be "smarts" is the lowest form of intelligence of all: worldly intelligence. The heart is the seat of wisdom, but it looks like Diebold will deliver a regular voting machine before you learn any wisdom. But, don't despair. While there's life, there's hope.

[harmonicon]

19. possession of some literature is illegal in the US too (nt)

[JonQ]

22. And it's wrong here too

nt

[Zhade]

33. "Granted it's a BS religion" - redundant. It's no different than any other religion.

Well, it's more honest about its intent to fleece you, so there's that difference.

[JonQ]

45. Well yeah

all religions require a certain, leap of faith, but some are worse than others. Scientologists, mormons, various smaller cults, etc I'd say take a substantially bigger leap of faith than others.

[ohio2007]

16. Sue only Scientology ? But all the other flavors are the real deal ?

SO much for "faith healing" without a license to prescribe anti depressants

[asteroid2003QQ47]

20. This could start a trend. Sue organized religion for 'organised fraud.'

There is hope!

[IndianaGreen]

29. Shouldn't those be the grounds for suing every religious group?

Religion is a control mechanism used by the ruling classes to oppressed the working class.

[Zhade]

31. So, when does the lawsuit against the Roman Catholic Church begin?

I mean, for the same thing, not the institutionalized cover-up of rampant child rape.

So many fraudulent religions, so few lawsuits!