Saudi child 'files for divorce'

[inanna]

Source: BBC

A court in Saudi Arabia is reported to be preparing to hear a plea for divorce from an eight-year-old girl who has been married off to a man in his 50s.

The Saudi newspaper al-Watan said the girl had been married off to the man by her father without her knowledge.

The child's mother is thought to be pushing for the marriage to be annulled - though the father opposes the move.


Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7579616.stm

[kestrel91316]

1. "Marrying" a child of 8 is state-sanctioned pedophilia.

Can someone plesae explain to me why we are still dependent on oil from these freaks 30 years after Carter??

[wuushew]

8. Buying their oil may be the best thing we can do

without economic development no situation will change the traditional operation of Saudi culture.


Saudi Arabia has very little other natural capital so we must endure this period of outrage while its economy diversifies.

[JerseygirlCT]

16. But it won't diversify.

The entire country is under the control of the royal family - it's all going right back to the same group of people. Trickle down doesn't work there, either.

[wuushew]

29. The royal family bribes and pacifies the population through oil

what is the plan after the oil runs out?

The system must invariably change or collapse. An educated middle class is the only thing that can keep the country going, else you will will quickly find the royals dead in some sort of armed revolution caused by economic dissatisfaction.

The oil will not last forever.

[madeline_con]

47. After the oil runs out, it will be another AFG. n/t

[Spouting Horn]

23. The Salafists

act like Salafists b/c of a lack of money????

[Douglas Carpenter]

44. actually there have been absolutely dramatic changes in Saudi Arabia over the past two decades

I cannot say I have ever heard of an eight year-old being married even 22 years ago in the remote tribal areas in the Asir Mountains near Yemen where I spent a few years from 1986 to 1989. But I could imagine it would be possible.


By far Saudi Arabia is the strictest and most archaic society in the Middle East - much, much more so than Iran.

Still, if I contrast the first time I was in Saudi Arabia in 1986 to the most recent time in Nov of 2007 -- 22 years ago I recall reading the most prominent local English language newspaper. And frankly it was like a joke. All articles relating to the government or the society itself were filled with nothing but praise. Everything was great and getting better. The local media was only one step above Radio Albania in the outrageousness of its own propaganda.

Now I can pick up the same newspaper and read open although admittedly somewhat restrained criticism of the government and of the society itself - but articles and openness that would have been unimaginable 21 years ago. Opinion pieces by Saudi woman calling for more rights for woman are now in the paper all the time. Articles calling for more openness from the government and criticizing the state for a lack of openness don't even raise an eyebrow anymore. Articles criticizing the society itself and the excessive influence of religious hardliners are normal. They are so common now. Even the former Israeli Knesset Member Uri Avnery's column - calling for the two-state solution and a mutual acceptance between Israel and the Arab world is now a regular in the same paper which once wouldn't even mention that columnist country's name.

More importantly is the dramatic changes in human consciousness. 21 years ago most Saudis seemed barely aware of the world just over the hill. Collective awareness outside their own tribe and province was minimal. Now most younger generation Saudis can converse and debate rationally and critically not only about the affairs of Saudi Arabia and the Middle East - but show an awareness of International issues and debate that I doubt most young Americans have. I know this is hard to believe. But I am absolutely certain that the average young Middle Eastern high school graduate is far more aware and far more critical thinking about international issues outside their own borders than the average young American.

I get the impression that most Americans have a fantasy that he whole of the Middle East is like a cross between Disney's Aladen and life under the Taliban. This is no more accurate than believing the old colonial image of Africa of cannibal wild savages throwing spears and cooking their captured white people in large pots while they all danced around the fire.

Is the change happening fast enough? No! Do they still have a long ways to go especially when it comes to issues of woman rights? Absolutely! But they are making progress. They are moving forward. And I would dare say that they have moved forward more in the past 20 years than many societies have done over centuries.

[wuushew]

45. Excellent post

I was in no way attempting to disparage all of Saudi society. My intention was to raise a counterpoint to the idea that economically boycotting them would be in any way pragmatic.

[madeline_con]

48. Thank you for that.

I think the Sauds are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They have to appease the Mutawahs to keep their wealth and their heads. I see change coming, but so many of the old school Muslims see sin in every "vice" adopted from the west. Everything will cuase moral decay. Unwed pregnancy and pole dancing will ensue!

[Matariki]

25. Perhaps 'marrying off' doesn't mean she moves in with the guy until she's older

Some Saudi guys lived in my co-ed art school dorm one year (boy were *they* confused) and I remember a couple of them showing pictures of their brides - women whom they'd never actually met in person and who were very pale because they'd never been allowed outdoors. Their marriages were arranged for them, which must suck for everyone involved. However the guys were in the US going to school and having the sort of fun their wives would be murdered for.

Not to say it isn't creepy, but probably for reasons other then pedophilia.

[madeline_con]

49. I think they move in with his extended family.

Then the marriage is consummated after the girl reaches sexual maturity.

This used to be common in the "olden times" of biblical days, too.

The custom keeps the wealth within the tribe.

[TechBear_Seattle]

32. It is an arranged marriage. It cannot be consumated yet

In Saudi Arabia, the minimum age at which the marriage can be consumated is the onset of menses.

[JDPriestly]

39. As the mother of two grown daughters, let me say that to allow marriageor sex at the onset of

menses is criminally primitive. Imagine a girl of 13 or 14 carrying a child, giving birth and then nursing a child. Just because she has the onset of menses does not mean that she is physically mature or has even achieved the height and weight and health that are necessary to bear a healthy child.

We have far too many kids getting pregnant in our country in spite of our laws protecting them.

How cruel. There is just no excuse for the inhumanity of a culture that allows marriage at such an early age considering the medical knowledge we have today.

[qwlauren35]

55. Actually, it's simply outdated.

For some sad reason, girls are starting puberty before they used to. But I'm not convinced that there is anything unhealthy about teen pregnancy. Heck, it's rampant in OUR country these days, and our girls don't have a centuries old infrastructure in which to help them get through it.

I think it flies in the face of our modern-day understanding of cognitive and social maturity. And I admit that our hips are still reshaping themselves during our teen years. But I think there are plenty of young girls who are quite physically capable of motherhood at what I consider a ridiculously, pathetically YOUNG age.

[dkf]

2. That is sick. I can't believe Saudi Arabia allows 8 year olds to get married.

[Coventina]

3. They also don't allow girls to leave burning buildings

unless they are properly covered.

[dkf]

4. Sounds like all the pedophiles should convert to Islam and go

to Saudo Arabia to get married. Isn't it easy to get a divorce too?

There ya go...Pedophilia heaven.

[Wizard777]

17. No that doesn't even pass the biblical smell test.

I doubt the 8 year old has been through puberty and therefore an adult by biblical standards.

[Heather MC]

24. If by puberty you mean starting her cycle, I know lots of girls who begain

at very young ages 8, 9 of course I am not defending these sicko's
I was just wondering if that is the marker for "puberty"

[Wizard777]

31. Yes it is. The bible recognizes three stages of human developement.

Child (prepuberty), Adult (postpuberty), and elder (post menses for women.) The bible places adulthood with an event in human developement instead of an age.......ready or not. So to speak. This allows for different people to develope at different rates which is self evident in nature. Adolecsence is foreign concept to the bible. You're either child or adult not both. Which is basically what adolecense is.

I understand the need for the constant disclaimers. Some like to hysterically fly of the handle and kill the messenger. Trying to prevent or disrupt any rational discussion. I guess they fear that if they understand what makes these sicko's tick. They won't be able to stop themselves from becomming one. If that's the case these weak willed people shouldn't be posting on blogs.

[madeline_con]

50. Muslim bashing is nasty business. n/t

[bean fidhleir]

9. It's an arranged marriage - until recently common everywhere

Still common outside Anglo/Germanic-culture countries.

I believe that, under Islamic law, it must be a marriage in name only at her age.

[Tutonic]

27. Wait until the facts come out about the six and seven year old girls

and boys shipped from Iraq to Saudi and other Arab nations solely for the purpose of sexual slavery by older Arab men. I don't condemn Islam but the Arab world is FULL OF LIFE LONG PEDOPHILES. And a number of them are in the ruling party in Saudi Arabia.

[Odin2005]

5. Bunch of sick barbarian assholes.

This kind of crap is just plain wrong. if some relativist idiot want's to give me a lecture about "respecting other cultures" can kiss my ass. "cultures" that violate such basic standards of human decency to no deserve to exist.

[azurnoir]

10. Formerly of South St Paul?

home to a now defunct record company, from your post sounds like it.
However before you spout off bigoted crap you do realize the marriage is as another poster put it "in name only" the girl would not live with her husband until she is an adult and these types of arranged marriages are common though out Asia and India so if you want to trash cultures why stop at one country go for entire continents,

BTW I suspect you would be comfortable with the "culture" on the other side of the Red River, and the taxes are cheaper too.:sarcasm:

[ogneopasno]

13. So,

because he's not raping her, it's OK that she marries someone without consenting? Without being an adult? Is that what you're saying?

[azurnoir]

14. Take as it pleases you

if that is how you wish be my guest.

[leftynyc]

56. I'm sure everyone here would love to take

it another way because the way you wrote it is an obscenity.

[azurnoir]

57. As was IMO the post

I was replying to.

[Bjorn Against]

20. Hey, I live close enough to South St. Paul that I could walk there

And while there have been some neo-Nazi bigots that have come out of South St. Paul, they represent a very tiny percentage of the population. For the most part South St. Paul is a quiet, working class, and Democratic leaning city.

I see the point you are trying to make though, and you are right for the most part. I will say however that putting eight year olds into arranged marriages is not good in any culture, as it really puts those children in a bad situation. There are things in every culture, including our own, that are socially destructive and I don't think it is bigotry to point that out. What is bigotry is to pretend like it is only other cultures that have customs which are socially harmful, and to ignore our own shortcomings. We may not have arranged marriages here, but it does not take much observation to find all kinds of ways in which our own culture puts women and children at serious risk.

[Odin2005]

33. WTF are you yapping about? Arrianged marriages are patriarchal BS.

And I'm in Moorhead, not St. Paul. And before you continue calling me a bigot because I believe that women deserve to be treated like HUMAN BEINGS my girlfriend is from India BTW...

[Tutonic]

46. Where are you getting your info regarding the child not being

raped/molested until she is an adult? This is patently false! If you have been told this you need to do the research and find out how often these girls and boys are sold to these God-awful older men and raped. If I was a famous ruler and was willing to look the other way regarding this rampant crime I'd spin it to say that the children are always well protected and cared for until they are adults and able to make decisions on their own. Otherwise it sounds like the ruler is complicit. And yes the rulers are complicit. Lets not sugarcoat this crime.

[azurnoir]

52. Where do you get information?

[Kali]

34. calm down and try a little proofreading

maybe a little research too.

[Iggo]

6. God forbid they decide she was raped.

Honor-killing, and all that...

[happyslug]

7. "Marriages" at that age is NOT uncommon, Mohammad himself married a Six year old

Now the consummation of the Marriage did not officially occur till the Child was ten and he had no Children by that wife (All of Mohammad's children's mother was his first wife, a woman who was older the Mohammad at the time of their marriage).

The lack of Children indicates that Mohammad may NOT have had sex with his last wife (Mohammad was also in his Fifties at the time of the marriage to his last wife). Furthermore the Marriage had clear political ramifications, Mohammad's last wife father was one of the followers of Mohammad but also had connections with the rest of the ruling elite of that part of Arabia.

http://www.anwary-islam.com/women/prophets-wives.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_wives

Aisha was the six year old bride of Mohammad her father, Abu Bakr became the first Caliph i.e. successor of Mohammad:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha
The above cite avoids the exact problem of Aisha "Adultery", Mohammad ruled you needed four Wittinesses to prove Adultery and since Aisha had missed a movement of Mohammad's Caravan and picked up by one man. Under the laws of that time period that was Adultery. Mohammad changed the law to required four wittinesses, Mohammad ruled not enough wittinesses to prove Adultery: Some better sites:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm
http://www.muhammadanism.org/hadith/Topics/Marriage.htm

Note many of Mohammad's wives were married for their were widows of his followers and that was the best way (and a traditional way in Arabic tradition) to take care of widows of followers and friends:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umm_Salama_Hind_bint_Abi_Umayya

My comments is to help understand what an "arranged marriage" and a "Child marriage" is in Saudi Arabia. Such marriages have less to do with sex then with family and other political reason. Remember outside of Western Society most of the world cousins marry cousins (Cousin NOT marrying cousin was outlawed by the Catholic Church in the "Dark Ages" as an attempt to break the power hold of families throughout Europe. It worked, we do NOT have the in-breeding (And the Village level POLITICAL problems it causes) that is common in the rest of the World (and one of the problems we are facing in Iraq, no one wants to turn over their relatives to us, for there goes their financial/family/social safety net).

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

37. Excellent answer

and thanks for the citations. Aisha was a strong woman in her own right, who understood politics from a young age. Political alliances amongst the ruling houses of Europe often involved betrothal of young princes and princesses (Prince Arthur, elder brother of Henry VIII, and Catherine of Aragon springs to mind)

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[happyslug]

54. Not under the laws of his time period, if he ever had sex with Aisha.

Officially he did, and she said so but only after she had become a "Woman" under Arab law of the time period. People forget that under English Common Law the age of Consent for sex was only 12 (That is why Statutory Rape is call Statutory Rape, it is a product of a STATUTE passed by a State Legislature whenever the Legislature determined 12 was to young and preferred a higher age).

AS I said Mohammad had no children by Aisha (And he was dead by the time she turned 18) so I have my doubts if he ever had sex with her (But she claimed he did, and she would have to make such a claim for he had been her husband).

My point was just because someone was married at age six, did NOT mean he had sex with her at that age or even afterward. Marriage in Arab Culture (and most Cultures) while based on sex, is more then sex. In the inter-Tribal Politics that Mohammad was involved in with the growth of Islam, marriages became a key part of those inter and intra-tribal politics. Sex was part of the Marriage, a minor part once you look at and understand the inter and intra-tribal politics at work. In the case of Mohammad it is formation of Islam AND who was to succeed him upon his death. The Shiite believe Aisha was involved in the politics of why Ali (Mohammad's Son in law) did NOT succeed him, and thus tend to attack her, while the Sunni uphold her as one of the sources of their interpretation if the Koran.

The dispute between Ali and Aisha started at the time of her alleged adultery, when asked by Mohammad, Ali told Mohammad he had to follow the law, i.e. execute Aisha for Adultery, instead Mohammad rewrote the law saying you need four wittinesses. Ali accepted this, but Aisha seems to have hold a grudge against him for it. After Mohammad's death Aisha helped the nest three Caliphs be elected Caliph instead of Ali. Ali finally was elected as the Fourth Caliph. Aisha lead a revolt against Ali, which Ali defeated and then sent Aisha to her her home, no punishment for the revolt. This seems to soften the relationship so told the end of his regime Aisha came to back Ali against his opponents, but she survived Ali by a dozen years (So she lived long enough to see the Shiite-Sunni Split, through the Split at that time was more Ali supporters against the Supported of Umar and his family and Supporters, Sunni Islam really did not come to be till after Umayyad Caliphate was overthrown the replaced by the Abbasid Dynasty in 750 AD.

Through the Shiite had supported the overthrow of the Umayyad Dynasty, within about 50 years the Abbasid had embraced Sunni and had the books of Hadith written that is the heart of Sunni Islam as opposed to the Imans who are viewed as the foundation of Shiite Islam (I will Not get into the difference between the various Shiite groups, you are on your own, but the difference can be important at times).

The Umayyad Dynasty:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad

The Abbasid Dynasty:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid

Hadith:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith#Shi.27a_view

Imans:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imams

[madeline_con]

53. Thank you .

Stressing the importance of keeping the wealth in the tribe needs to be understood. :)

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Malikshah]

11. This would be a test of Wahhabist legal thinking.

Knowledge of marriage is never not required.

Quite clearly the father is a heretic...;)

More proof that the Saudi are the worst kind of Muslims.

[Wizard777]

19. Yes but the Mercy aspect of Sharia Law are also ignored at times.

Under Sharia Law if you repent of a crime. You cannot be punished for that crime. Because the Mercy of Allah is upon you. If you do not repent of the Crime. Then you are to be punished and they chop off what ever. Also if you reoffend then you have not repented and you are punished. They chop off what ever.

[happyslug]

21. but payment is essential part of the "Forgiveness" concept

Basically you are given an option, pay a set fee (varies based on the position of the Victim and society as a whole and the crime). Once the payment is made, Forgiveness is required. If no payment is made or offer, then the punishment must be carried out.

[Wizard777]

26. Right the concept is called spiritual debt. That's what hell is all about.

Sharia Law also allows the family of the person a murderer has killed to purchase him after he has been condemned to death by the courts. They basically take the place in the family of the person they killed. They must perform their chores and duties. If they refuse to work or disobey they may be killed by the head of the family. If they run away from the family. They may be killed by anyone.

[jeff30997]

36. "They chop off what ever"

Interesting.I know which part of this guy's anatomy I would like to chop off.

[Malikshah]

40. ??? A bit off topic. The point is the marriage is not licit. End of story.

No ifs, ands, or buts.

As for the punishment for the father, there would be no "chopping off" of anything. No "removing the offending" appendage.

Generally, the father would be fined.

He's not a heretic. Just a piss poor Muslim. And, Lo, Allah despises piss poor Muslims. To them is the fire. (rightfully so, I might add)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

38. Very good point

I've heard that there is a Hadith where the Prophet predicted the greatest threat to Islam would come from within. Could it be Saudi Arabia is living up to his prediction?

[Malikshah]

43. I would agree. There were other "schools of thought" like

the Kharijites of the 7th-9th century (mainly) and the Zahiris (with their literalist interpretation of the Qur'an and hadith)

Interestingly enough, neither "view" every held sway in large portions of the Muslim world, and eventually all but disappeared due to lack of adherents.

The Wahhabist abomination would have done the same had it not been for the oil wealth and the funding of schools. Still, Wahhabist thought is still a minority opinion in the Muslim world. That being said, the batshit crazies of any belief system, like herpes/syphilis, have way of surviving in dark, dank places-figuratively-until the light of day is shed upon them.

:)

[TroubleMan]

12. Da' Jesus lives in Saudi Arabia?

[pattmarty]

15. Sick motherfuckers......

[Stern21]

18. Oh, the joys of living in a theocracy.

But remember, the Saudis are our good buddies and kissing buddies with the Bushes.



http://www.hermes-press.com/BushSaud.htm

[Phred42]

22. What? We didn't KNOW that Bush's friends and MANY of his supporters are Perverts?

[mikehiggins]

30. That picture is hilarious

It reminds me of days spent at the old swimming hole--actually the Hudson River by Yonkers--where skinnydipping was not unheard of and stealing other kid's clothing was considered high sport.

The GOPukes ruin everything.

[Wabbajack_]

28. Did he rape her yet?

[lovuian]

35. To be married off by 8 years old I agree with her mother

she isn't cattle she is a free thinking woman to be and just a child

Her Father is an idiot

[emad]

41. And perfectly legit under Wahabbist wingnut version of Islam.

One of the great dilemmas of Islam is that the Prophet's last wife was only 6 when he married her.

Many 'theologians' have said it was merely a symbolic wedding.

But child brides who 'go all the way' are a fact of life in Wahabbist hellholes like Saudi.

Nobel laureate and Iranian human rights lawyer Shirin Ebadi has written, lectured and campaigned extensively in her country to stop this sort of sex slavery.

Her work for the Association of Women Muslim Lawyers has been vociferious in trying to stamp out this kind of criminality.

[Lost-in-FL]

42. I didn't know they had LDS Churches in Saudi

No wait...