Car buyers' satisfaction with US brands stumbles

[onehandle]

Source: AP

NEW YORK - U.S. car buyers are growing less satisfied with their purchases from domestic automakers while their Asian and European competitors continue to improve, according to a recent survey.

Consumer satisfaction with U.S. auto brands slipped as Lexus and BMW tied for first place, followed by Toyota and Honda, according to the University of Michigan's American Customer Satisfaction Index released Tuesday.

General Motors Corp.'s Buick and Cadillac brands, and Ford Motor Co.'s Lincoln and Mercury lines, fell from their No. 2 perch at a time when U.S. companies are struggling to outshine their competitors and reverse their shrinking sales and market share.

That's an unsettling sign for domestic automakers, said Claes Fornell, the University of Michigan business professor who heads the annual survey. Traditionally, U.S. brands improve their customer satisfaction scores each year, just not as much as their overseas counterparts. Now, the domestic companies' ratings are declining while their competitors' scores continue to climb.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080819/ap_on_bi_ge/autos_customer_satisfaction

[dkf]

1. If Saturn's ratings increased due to Gas Mileage, its possible the other American cars fell

for the opposite reason...awful gas mileage.

[screembloodymurder]

2. That's the first thought I had.

It's not the quality, it's the mpg.

[dkf]

3. My fear is that when consumers start buying the less expensive American cars,

then they really will notice a difference between economy Japanese and American cars.

[dipsydoodle]

4. Have you got

The BMW 3 series 2.0 diesel with the 170ps engine ? That does over 50 mpg to an imperial gallon.

[Eurobabe]

6. no but I've got a BMW series 1, 118D 4-door hatchback

and not only does it kick ass on the road, it kicks ass at the gas station. That little bugger can get over 900km per tank (about 650+ miles)

It's cute too! And has the Euro-4 diesel emissions level engine.

[dipsydoodle]

13. Are you

over there or over here ? 118d is 2 litre too - just not as powerful as the 170 2.0 litre. One series has got a lighter bodyshell too - think so anyway. Didn't think that any of the diesels were sold in the USA.

[Eurobabe]

16. I'm over here

Germany. ;)

Yes, I know, the HP is much higher in the 3series diesels, but my little car hauls some balls when needed. Plenty of torque-demada.

[happyslug]

19. In the US we have to use the EPA gas mileage number only

And given the Pollution Control Laws of the late 1960s the EPA was given the duty of testing all cars to see if they meet US Pollution laws. After the Oil embargo of 1973 various US makers started to make outrageous claims as to mileage for example I remember one ad taking about how far on car went on just 15 gallon tankful of Gasoline. The problem was it was all down hill, the car could have coasted dowe the 100-200 miles it traveled to get that mileage. People complained about these "legal" but misleading ads so Congress said the only mileage any car maker or dealer can use is the one run by the EPA in its process of testing the Car's pollution equipment. The exact procedure has changed over the years, bit it is still the EPA's job to test gasoline mileage in the US.

Furthermore the Series 3 Diesels apparently are NOT sold in the US for they are NOT in the EPA booklet on gasoline mileage. Thus with no EPA test no dealer or car maker site any mileage for the Car in the US.

EPA mileage guide:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/

The Actual Ratings:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ratings2008.shtml

To look by Year and Model:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

The Five Diesel Cars sold in the US for 2009 (More will be introduced as the year goes on, but only five have been tested by the EPA):
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm

And the Seven Sold in the 2008 Model year:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm

Diesels had a problem for decades in the US, the US adopted very strict soot tests for cars and Diesels for years could NOT meet those requirements (The Rules did NOT apply to medium or heavy trucks, but did apply to light trucks and SUVs). In recent years that has changed (mostly do to improvements in Diesel fuels then any other matter) but most car makers have NOT yet started to build or import Diesel Cars, SUVs and small Trucks in the US. Diesels are much more popular in Europe then in the US for that reason.

[dipsydoodle]

20. Well I found one anomaly striaght away

For 2009 you'll have the VW Jetta 2.0 diesel but not the Eurpoean Jeep Patriot which has the same engine.

Apart from that most European diesel engines are now available with DPF - diesel particulant filters.

[happyslug]

21. It is the list of cars sold in the US, not a list of what is made

Jeep has been selling diesels in Europe for years, but refuses to sell them in the US. If the car is NOT sold in the US it is NOT on the EPA list. If it is sold it is on the EPA list for to be sold it must be tested by the EPA for both pollution and gas economy purposes.

As I said in my previous thread most of the problems of particulates have been resolved, but the US rules were stricter then the European rules, thus diesels became common in Europe, but are still rare in the US. Even today most Dealers do NOT have their Mechanics trained on Diesels. The dealers do NOT want to make the investment in such training given how few diesels they sell. It ends up being a chicken and egg comparison. Without the Mechanics the Dealers do not want to sell Diesels, but the reason they are no trained Mechanics is because the Dealers are not selling Diesels.

This is where the US car dealers are at today. It will take a few years to be resolved but it will be resolved. Through I should I note that Diesel Mechanics get higher pay then Gasoline Mechanics for they have the option of quiting and going to work for a trucking firm that already uses diesels, which is another reason US car Dealers do not want to train their Mechanics, they are afraid the Mechanics will take their training and leave.

[tinrobot]

55. I love my Ford Escape Hybrid

Made in Kansas City.

[Dover]

5. Stumble? How about a fatality of a head on collision with reality.

Too cozy with the oil companies and are meeting the same fate. Extinction isn't far off.

[Kolesar]

7. WTF is wrong with Honda--their satisfaction survey number is only 86?!!!

Compared to Buick at 85. After forty years of absolutely stellar management and Asian superiority their number should be a hundred. Or two hundred! Compounded semi-annually they should have been at around 36,000 by now!

[tech3149]

10. I've owned Hondas since 79

My last one is a 98. I don't think I'll buy another. My preferred model was the Civic SI, manual transmission, good sporty feel and great performance. Unfortunately, the performance and handling got softer and more sloppy over the years. Honda has seemed to cater more to creature comforts more than performance. If I were in the market for a new car, I'd lean toward something like a Subaru WRX or Mazda 3 or RX series.

[glowing]

11. They've increased the price quite a bit.. Its not as economical anymore.

[ET Awful]

8. A current GM ad talks about how great their cars are on gas, their example? The Pontiac Vibe.

Which, coincidentally is a rebadged Toyota Matrix built on a Toyota Corolla platform.

[DainBramaged]

108. So, you don't look for yourself to see what else is offered????

So typical.


2008 Chevrolet Cobalt XFE 25 City 29 Combined 36 Hwy

2008 Chevrolet Malibu 22 City 25 Combined 32 Hwy

2008 Saturn Astra 2DR Hatchback 24 City 27 Combined 32 Hwy

Do some research next time. Oh wait, this is DU, opinions are all that matter.


http://www.fueleconomy.gov/

[DUlover2909]

9. I love my 97 Honda Civic. Payed for and humming along at 33 mpg.

I'd rather put money into it than buy a new car even after 150,000 miles. I just got a tune up ($425 to replace everything) and got my tire pressure adjusted thanks to Obama!

[Eurobabe]

17. Hondas ROCK!

I've had only Hondas since 1991, first an Accord, then a little bubble butt '96 Civic hatchback (no longer in production :( ) The only mistake in the bunch was a trade of the Accord for a P-ASS-port, which was really a Isuzu Rodeo, horrible car. Dumped it 1.5 years later for my hatchback. That car was sweeeeeeeeeeeet! I could easily do 90 on I-95 between Baltimore and DC. It liked to run.

Then I bought another Honda Civic coupe in 2003, traded that for an Acura TL in 2004, and for business purposes, traded up the Acura for an RL 2005. Still have that car, and boy do I love it. Pure luxury for under $50K. Acura thought of everything on the RL, it's 4 wheel drive all-time but manages to get 22-28mpg, even with 300HP engine. I take it skiing in the Alps, no problems ever. My other smaller car (BMW 1 diesel) is rear wheel and it SUCKS in the snow. I hate it from Nov-Mar. Fun in the summer but lousy winter car.

[demnan]

12. This is no surprise

I bought my first non-American car ever in May, a Toyota Camry - great price, great mileage, great driving and great dependability.

[ixion]

14. yep, I've been a Camry fan for many years now

it's a great no-nonsense vehicle that's comfortable, reliable, economical and stylish.

[pleah]

15. It has nothing to do with gas milelage now does it.

:sarcasm:

[WriteDown]

18. Got to love how the American brands have been destroyed

by slick marketing. Most people who hate GM or Ford haven't driven one in 20 years. Toyota leads the auto industry in recalls and yet people laud them for their quality. Total disconnect from reality.

[lib2DaBone]

23. Toyota Trucks not great....

I agree.. there is a disconnect. I think the fall of American Cars is mainly a factor of poor gas mileage. I bought a new 2006 Toyota Tacoma Pickup.. it was pure junk. The rear brakes failed, the dashboard rattled and springs came thru the seats after 100 miles. Why American car manufactureres dont come out with a high-mileage, 4 cyl diesel with 5 speed, is beyond me. They would sell Millions!

[WriteDown]

24. Coming out with a diesel in the US...

has been very difficult due to particulate emmissions standards. I hear that now they may have found a way around this though. Toyota trucks also had a problem with their frames rusting out for many years. Don't hear much about that though.

[jmowreader]

109. The "way around this" is BlueTec

A while back I asked where the piss tank on a Dodge diesel pickup is. I wasn't being facetious. (Turns out there isn't one, at least not yet.)

BlueTec uses two catalytic converters, a particulate filter and a urea injector, along with at least three oxygen sensors, to scrape all the NOx and soot out of a diesel's exhaust stream. This works great.

[Truth4Justice]

98. When it comes to pickup trucks, American made trucks RULE!!

I got over 300,000 miles with no work on my last Chevy P/U truck. Try that with a Japanese pickup.

[WriteDown]

107. I bet your spare also isn't built into the bed of the truck...

like one truck that will remain unnamed.

[hogwyld]

110. I had an '86 Nissan p/u 4x4

Sold it when it had 343,000 miles on it. My friend is still driving it to this day.

[MadHound]

25. It's not just a matter of "slick marketing"

It is, more importantly, a recognition that US cars aren't as reliable, nor overall as economical as foreign models. Toyota is consistently ranked as the most reliable car out there, with most other foreign makes in the top level also. Meanwhile, US makes have consistently made the bottom of the reliability list for years and decades now.

And yes, foreign car makers do issue a lot of recalls. However many of them are for such minor items as the floor mat not being tacked down, and such like that.

Right now I own a Honda car and a Nissan truck. When I have to replace those, I'll do my research and see who comes out on top. If it is the US make, great. If not, oh well. Sorry, but it is my money that I'm spending, and I've got to spend it wisely. I can't afford otherwise.

[Kolesar]

27. What you cannot afford is to destroy a major American industry with your purchasing decisions

[MadHound]

31. If that were really the case, really the dynamic at work,

Then we should all still be riding horse and carts or the rails(two major American industries that have been destroyed)

The reality of the matter is that I do not owe my hard earned dollars to anybody. In a capitalistic system, those who make the best product(and while there is a consensus on "best", there is also much individual variance in the definition) will sell the most cars. The American auto industry hasn't been making the best product for quite some time now, so it is no wonder that they're tanking.

Why should I settle for a car that blows up, spontaneously ignites, gets horrible gas mileage, requires lots of repair work, is prone to rollovers, and so much more when I can get more reliability, better gas mileage, and better safety in a car from overseas? Tell you what, you pay for my next car, you can make the decision of model, but while I'm paying for it, I will make that decision, and it will be based on my priorities rather than those of saving a "major American industry".

I have seen some movement out of both Ford and GM to make cars more to my suiting, that get better gas mileage and are more reliable. If this trend continues, I imagine my next vehicle will be American, and I'm sure that will be the case for a lot of people. That's the way our capitalistic system works. Subsidizing sub par products simply to keep an industry alive is just asking for an even larger crash on down the line.

[WriteDown]

34. Simply not true.

Check those lists again. GM and Ford do make models that are fine running machines. Not every model is spectacular, but you've got plenty to choose from. Looking for a pickup truck? The Ford Ranger is the most fuel efficient pickup on the road. You could buy a nice GM or Ford model and it has the added benefit of supporting union labor.

[MadHound]

38. Yes, it is true

Domestic brands' reliability is worse than foreign makes <http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2005/10/27/survey_finds_15_of_31_most_reliable_cars_are_toyotas/>

Yes, individual domestic models might be more reliable than comparable foreign models, but will that particular model fulfill my other requirements. A Ford Ranger would be a fine thing, but does it come in diesel? After all, my next truck is going to be diesel in order that I can power it on my own biodiesel. Therefore gas mileage wouldn't be such a top priority, but overall reliability and performance, along with price, are. Actually for those requirements, domestic trucks are a pretty good buy, and most likely I'll wind up getting one.

However the next time we pick up a passenger car, it will probably be a foreign make, since domestic passenger cars are still less reliable, have less resale value, and are generally lest economical than their foreign counterparts. If US car makers actually made a hybrid that was as reliable and cost efficient as Toyota does, I would buy it. But since they don't, I'll be buying a Prius. That's the way capitalism works.

[WriteDown]

39. Capitalism at the expense of union labor and families...

I see now. It takes about 7(est) years to recover the premium you pay on a prius to actually see the savings. You'd be better off getting in line for the Volt.

[MadHound]

40. So, I should spend my hard earned money on crappy products, all to keep union families in their job?

Gee, I'm all in favor of unions(having started a local myself), but sorry, I just can't nor won't follow you there. Oh, and your little guilt trip is bogus at best. You're essentially blaming the American buying public for looking out for its own interest instead of buying overpriced shoddy American crap. Perhaps if the union leadership had lit a fire under management, they might have started building better cars. But noooo, the union leadership got onto the same bandwagon as management did, making shoddy, overpriced, underengineered rolling piles of crap and trying to pass them off as quality cars.

And the seven year recovery time really doesn't bother me, since I generally keep cars for ten-twenty years or longer. Another reason I like foreign cars of the past thirty years, many of them are still on the road. I've still got my '87 Toyota, gets great gas mileage still, and is wonderful on the snow. Still running like a top after 250,000 miles and twenty plus years. Where are all those Ford Fiestas and Dodge Omni's? Oh, yeah, on the scrap pile and have been for a decade.

If the Volt is available when I'm purchasing, I will certainly look at it. But it's not supposed to be out until 2010, and even then I like to give new auto technologies a few years to work the kinks out before purchasing for myself.

[WriteDown]

63. Crappy products?

Already you begin with a poor perception. Detroit did not hypnotize the American public into buying certain types or cars. There was a demand and Detroit filled that demand. Kind of like the new Chevy Camaro that is upcoming. How many 1977 Celica's are still on the road? I see plenty of Fords, Dodge's and Chevy's from the 40's thru the 70's and beyond.

[MadHound]

99. No, Detroit didn't hypnotize the American public, neither did Japan

Japanese companies simply went out and built the best cars going. Yes, there was a demand for SUV's, one that Detroit promoted and played off of. Meanwhile their passenger line, and their trucks, suffered badly in quality.

I don't know where you live, but '77 Celica's are still quite common, especially due to the fact that far fewer were sold here than elsewhere. But many of those that were sold are still going: <http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=1977+Toyota+Celica+for+sale&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8>

And frankly, that new Camaro is another example of what is wrong with US auto industry, they're tone deaf. In a period of high gas prices, when people are thinking more and more economically, they come out with the gas guzzler Camaro:eyes:

Yes, though quality has gotten somewhat better, the fact remains that overall, for the past thirty years, Detroit has built crappy products. This is not simply my opinion, but it has been backed up by consumer reports, industry rewards, resale value, and most important, real world experience.

So, I will continue to purchase the best automobile for my dollar that I can. If this results in my purchase of an American car, great. If not, well, that sucks, but the fact of the matter is that I'm not going to toss my hard earned money at crap, just to support unions. If unions want my money, then they and their leadership should use their influence with Detroit to force them into building a better car. After all, their job is on the line, not just company profits.

[WriteDown]

103. 77 Celica's common?

Apparently we have very different versions of the word common :eyes:. You do know the main problem with the 70's Toyota models right? They were woefully underpowered.

The new camaro will have a waiting list. There is a sizable niche market for this type of retro vehicle so it will do well.

30 years? So there were no good vehicles from now back to 1978? Seems like the original Ford Taurus was at one time the biggest selling car in the country. My buddy still has one and runs like a top albeit with no A/C.

Check out some of the Toyota recalls. They are not just for minor things. I encourage you to take a hard look at some GM and Ford models next time around. You will be surprised.

[CRF450]

118. Exactly, theirs always going to be a market for cars like the Camaro

Just look at the sales of the Mustang, its still selling pretty well. And there not nearly that much of a gass guzzler like they were 30 years ago.

[WriteDown]

62. You do realize...

that your irrefutable proof is a CONSUMER SURVEY!

In other words, it's a survey about perception.

[MadHound]

100. It is a Consumer Reports survey

Which isn't just a survey, they also utilize lab testing in their analysis, if you would have bothered to read the fine print down at the bottom of the page. Oops.

Furthermore, there is tons of literature going back over thirty years stating that Detroit comes in second, year in, year out, in terms of quality. Yes, that has changed somewhat over the past decade, but overall, and historically, Japan has built a better car.

If you want, I can go into the minutia of how much "slop" is built into American engines, or go hook you up with a link from "Hot Rod" magazine concerning their reliability tests, but the simply fact is, you know that I'm telling the truth, and if you use a simple little think like Google, you can find the proof of that as easily as I did.

[WriteDown]

104. They do?

Let's go over the article.



This pretty much proves my point:

"'Toyota is a juggernaut for reliability, but people also frequently give brands with a good reputation the benefit of the doubt even when their vehicles aren't performing well," said Jim Sanfilippo, senior industry analyst with Automotive Marketing Consultants in Bloomfield Hills, Mich."

They are BASED on the consumer surveys and they also take into account the tests:

"Findings were based on surveys of the magazine's readers. Consumer Reports uses the data along with vehicle tests to decide which models it will recommend. Consumer Reports recommends models that have performed well in its own tests and that have shown average or better reliability in the annual survey."

[brentspeak]

80. Right there, you're simply repeating the old canard about "less reliability"

Apparantly, the repetition of propaganda has worked on you too.

[MadHound]

101. No, just the repetition of facts

Year in, year out, objective data and testing has shown that overall Japanese cars are better built and more reliable than US cars. I provided one link up above, a very reputable one. If you do a bit of Googling you'll find tons more backing up my case. It isn't an "old canard", it is a long standing fact. Yes, within the pas decade US manufacturers have gotten better to some extent. But that's only within the past decade, and that improvement, though good, hasn't reached the level of quality of foreign makes, except in a few limited circumstances, like trucks.

It isn't propaganda if it is true.

[WriteDown]

105. I have a google search for you

Google "myth of vtec". Should get some interesting info.

[Xithras]

30. American companies have a nasty habit of ruining good cars.

As an example. I was watching a rerun of Top Gear recently (a BBC auto/humor show, if you're not familiar with it) and they did a driving review of the Cadillac CTS. The basic mechanics of the car were perfect, and the reviewer was raving about the performance, the handling, and the ride of the car. The problem? Plastic sun visors and cheap plastic panels. As the reviewer put it, Cadillac (GM) took a very nice car and somehow made it feel like a cheap, inexpensive wannabe...in order to save a few hundred bucks on production costs. Price wise, that car is competing with Mercedes, BMW, and other luxury car manufacturers, but the pencil pushers turned a genuine competitor in that market into an "also ran" that no luxury car buyer would consider unless they were already sold on the Cadillac brand. The result? CTS sales are a fraction of what they could be globally.

It's that kind of stupidity that's undermining the American car market, and it has nothing to do with American prejudices. I needed to buy a small 4WD family car a few years ago, and my choices were narrowed down to a Subaru Forester or a Jeep Liberty CRD. Quality wise, the Subaru was smooth and quiet while the Liberty felt like a skateboard and rattled like an old VW Bug (again with the plastic paneling). Neither car had a lot of rear seat legroom, but the seats in the back of the Liberty were hard and uncomfortable while Subaru's designers had put a lot of thought into rear passenger creature comforts. When the salesman told me that the Libery CRD (diesel) model was being discontinued and that only gas models would be available into the future, I went with the Subaru (future parts availability for a discontinued engine system was questionable). I really wanted to give the American-built Liberty a chance, and on paper it looked like a great alternative, but it just didn't compare when the two vehicles were test driven back to back.

[WriteDown]

32. Look at it this way...

Toyota and Cadillac could make the same exact vehicle, one with a Toyota badge, one with a Cadillac badge. The Cadillac would be about 3K more due to union legacy costs. Most people will not put their money where their mouth is and buy the Cadillac to help support union labor. That is the dilemma they are in.

[Romulox]

36. One step further: support of Labor has been eliminated as a "liberal" value.

Case in point: this thread. :hi:

[Mudoria]

37. Isn't that the truth..

I can't count all the posts where some "progressive" happily declares they hope ____ (insert GM, Ford or Chrysler) goes down the tubes. Never mentioning where they plan to recover these high paying jobs once they're gone. If that's progressive then we need a new definition.

[Indydem]

46. I agree

Got into a discussion yesterday about the Volt with some moran who didn't know it was an all-electric vehicle and thought it was a prius knock-off.

People don't do their research and still assume that new cars are as bad as they were 25 years ago during the worst period of American automaking. I'll put my 2000 Pontiac against any car any time for relaibility, performance, and oh yeah, it was built in Michigan!

[DainBramaged]

75. I instantly put those 'voices' on ignore

I will not be tombstoned by arguing with an asshole who is probably 15 and never owned a car.

[WriteDown]

106. Ha, Dain..

I still keep fighting the good fight. I have facts on my side though. The Honda zombies just have the "cool" argument.

[Xithras]

41. But they DON'T make the exact same car.

The Liberty was more expensive than the Subaru, but I chose the Subaru because it was a better car.

I was fulling willing to spend more money to buy an American car to support labor. Hell, I've been in unions myself. I have nothing against union labor, and understand that there's a pricetag attached. I will not, however, spend MORE money to buy a LESS efficient, LESS comfortable vehicle. If the auto unions have a problem with that, they need to take it up with the corporate bigwigs who are designing these vehicles, and NOT with the buying public.

[WriteDown]

43. You do know that subaru's are LEGENDARY for...

transmission leaks at about 60-70K. Good luck to you though.

[DainBramaged]

77. I have driven LOTS of Jeep products, and your claims are suspect to say the least

rattletrap compared to a Subaru? Subaru has one of the most problematic car lines made. The Subaru isn't a better car, you just thought is was, and American Labor suffers for it.

[ileus]

94. Jeep is the best line of American cars, have been for 15 or more years.

[DainBramaged]

73. You got that right, TOTAL disconnect from reality

but don't speak truth to Almighty Toyota around DU. They can bash the shit out of Domestic manufacturers that are critical to the economy but don't you say one negative word about the transplants. And try 30+ years for most of them (owning an American car) and many are too young to have even owned a car in the last 5 years. Such bullshit is common on DU.

[brentspeak]

78. Agreed. There's been a concerted propaganda effort to denigrate U.S.-made cars

For every poorly-made 1st generation Ford Focus (the Focus was a legitimate Detroit disaster), there's ten well-built American cars out there.

[KansDem]

22. Honda's "front/rear tandem steering" vs. Detroit's "pin-striping"

Back in the mid-'90s when Honda introduced its revolutionary front/rear tandem steering, I saw an ad for this on TeeVee. A couple of commercials later, I saw a Detroit automaker offer its "revolution" in automobile design--"standard pin-striping."
:rofl:

I was embarrassed that Detroit thought I would think this a development on par with Honda's.

F*ck 'em...

[Kolesar]

28. Rear steering has been a marketplace failure...eom

[Romulox]

35. So. Does your current vehicle have rear wheel steering? No? Hmmmm....nt

[KansDem]

42. Since I drive a '65 Chevy, "no" it doesn't...

Besides, I was simply comparing how some auto makers strive to advance auto technology, while others tend to titillate us with cosmetic packages...

[Romulox]

44. It's hard to take an obvious failure as evidence of superior technology, then...nt

[KansDem]

49. At least they were willing to try something new...

Which is a hell of a lot more than I can say for an auto industry that continued to mass produced gas guzzlers following the Saudi oil boycott of the 1970s and Oil War I.

The handwriting was on the wall and our millionaire auto execs refused to read it...

[Indydem]

51. What were you driving after the oil boycott?

Did you run out and get a Chevelle or a Fiero? Or did you decide that $.65/gallon gas made it just as prudent to drive a larger car? People bought what they bought, not because Detroit has magic mind control powers, but because people wanted those models. Some of them were bought because of flashy cosmetic packages, but if thats what the consumer wanted, then thats what they got. The idea that Detroit should make cars that consumers hate because you demand they do it is assinine.

[KansDem]

57. After the oil boycott? I was driving was I was driving before...

...a '69 VW bug.

The Chevy was purchased in 1986 for a princely sum of $900. Although I'd love to buy a Prius, I can't afford $21,000.

Since 1973, I've owned a '69 VW (1973-1986) and a '65 Chevy (1986-now). I can't afford more, and certainly not some gas-guzzler produced by near-sighted Detroit auto execs and sold with the help of Madison Avenue. Yeah, I'd love to go out a buy a new car, but my banker says otherwise.

You comment of "...did you decide that $.65/gallon gas made it just as prudent to drive a larger car?" is laughable. So how much better is your Detroit-made car working because of the breakthrough in pin-striping?

[Romulox]

53. Ummm, didn't you say you drive a '65 Chevy, Mr. Visionary???

:eyes:

[KansDem]

58. Yes, it's all I can afford...

You got a problem with that?

[Romulox]

59. My problem is that you can't connect the dots between lack of support for US labor

and the present economic malaise the country finds itself in. :hi:

PS: If all I could afford was a '65 Chevy, the lack of rear wheel steering in new cars would be the least of my concerns.

[KansDem]

61. It seems to me the lack of support for US labor comes from US auto execs...

IF, Detroit began making truly fuel-efficient automobiles following the '70s oil embargo, and
IF, Detroit didn't outsource jobs in an attempt to increase profits, and
IF, Detroit didn't rely on the White House/US Congress to intervene to create a false market for its products, then we'd have better automobiles and better lives for auto workers. But avarice and greed got in the way...

If all I could afford was a '65 Chevy, the lack of rear wheel steering in new cars would be the least of my concerns.--I was merely pointing out that when other (foreign) auto makers were experimenting--the kind of experimenting that is required to wean us off oil--US auto makers chose to take a "Madison Avenue" approach to selling its products with embarrassing "come-ons" like pin-striping.

Detroit could have been the leader in educating the American consumer on the need for fuel-efficient automobiles, perhaps cars that ran on something other than oil. But instead, we got the Hummer and those monster pick-up trucks and Detroit execs got huge bonuses...

[WriteDown]

64. Then "Detroit" would have gone bankrupt in...

the early 80's. The demand for fuel efficient cars just wasn't there yet. Admittedly, some of 70's gas guzzlers are some of my favorite vehicles of all time. I would love to have the room to work on 3 or 4.

[KansDem]

68. Well, I think Chrysler *was* going bankrupt in 1980...

At least that's what we were told would happen if Congress didn't bail them out. We did, and then they sold out to Daimler-Benz 18 years later...

And another factor for Chrysler's survival was that Japan agreed to voluntarily limit its imports during that time, giving Chrysler somewhat of a "false market" to thrive in. You think, maybe, Detroit should have taken a cue from Japan regarding what US consumers were buying during this time?

Lee Iaccoca said, "If you find a better car, buy it!" We did and it sent him scurrying for a bailout...

[WriteDown]

69. Huh?

I'm fairly certain that Chrysler's problems were the result of the EPA emission standards put in place in the 70's. They basically had to retrofit existing engines to meet these standards which was costly and time consuming. The Japanese didn't face this problem. Chrysler did obtain a loan from the feds, but Lee Iaccoca was brought in after that. Also these loans were paid off pretty quickly early on.

Don't let the facts get in your way though :eyes:

[KansDem]

72. Interesting...

They basically had to retrofit existing engines to meet these standards which was costly and time consuming. The Japanese didn't face this problem. Why didn't the Japanese have this same problem? Or the other US manufacturers for that matter?

Lido Anthony "Lee" Iacocca (born October 15, 1924) is an American businessman most commonly known for his revival of the Chrysler Corporation in the 1980s,<1> serving as President and CEO from 1978 and additionally as chairman from 1979, until his retirement at the end of 1992. Among the most widely recognized businessmen in the world, he was a passionate advocate of U.S. business exports during the 1980s. He is the author or co-author of several books, including Iacocca: An Autobiography (with William Novak), and Where have all the Leaders Gone?

Wikipedia

Also:

Iacocca started as Chrysler's Chairman, and began a heavy restructuring of Chrysler. At the time Iacocca took over, Chrysler was on the verge of bankruptcy, as it was focusing most of its money on large, fuel thirsty cars that the public didn't want due to a fuel crisis at the time. First, Iacocca announced plant closures, job layoffs, and his plans for the company. His next move was cutting several large models, which were heavily unprofitable, and put the subcompact Dodge Omni and Plymouth Horizon into production. The Omni and Horizon became instant hits, selling over 300,000 units each their debut year, showing what was to come for Chrysler - yet somewhat ironically the Omni and Horizon had been designed by the European division of the company which Iacocca had axed in 1978.

Realizing that the company would go out of business if it did not receive a significant amount of money to turn the company around, Iacocca approached the United States Congress in 1979 and asked for a loan guarantee. While it is sometimes said that Congress lent Chrysler the money, it, in fact, only guaranteed the loans. Most thought this was an unprecedented move, but Iacocca pointed to the government bail-outs of the airline and railroad industries, arguing that more jobs were at stake in Chrysler's possible demise. In the end, though the decision was controversial, Iacocca received the loan guarantee from the government.

After receiving this reprieve, Chrysler released the first of the K-Car line, the Dodge Aries and Plymouth Reliant in 1981, compact automobiles based on design proposals that Ford had rejected during Iacocca's tenure there. Coming right after the oil crisis of the 1970s, these small, efficient and inexpensive, front-wheel drive cars sold rapidly. In addition, two years later Chrysler released the minivan, based on a proposal of a key engineering executive Hal Sperlich who joined Chrysler after being dismissed by Ford; to this day, Chrysler leads the automobile industry in minivan sales. Because of these three cars, and the reforms Iacocca implemented, the company turned around quickly and was able to repay the government-backed loans seven years earlier than expected.

It seems to me Detroit should have stuck with making smaller, fuel-efficient automobiles...

[WriteDown]

74. Simple....

Chrysler had to retool a lot of factories and had the highest cost of manufacturing to begin with as a result of the age of their factories. Retooling and retraining is costly. Smaller fuel efficient cars of the 1970's and early 80's are a tad bit different from their counterparts of today.

[susanna]

112. Ummm...I think the "if you find a better car, buy it"

tag line came around the same time or shortly after the government loans. At that point, Chrysler had, in fact, begun to turn things around. As they paid back the loans, some people evidently bought the tag line. I think you have your sequence skewed.

[Romulox]

88. Is it even worth pointing out that Japanese cars have gotten MUCH bigger in the past 10 years

Or that rear wheel steering has not a whit to do with fuel economy?

Or that Ford has had a true hybrid on the market for four years?

No, I don't think it's worth mentioning any of these things, because this is an emotional, not a rational, argument. :hi:

[WriteDown]

102. Not worth it.

Ford is not as "cool" as Honda or Toyota :eyes:

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CRF450]

26. I dont know how biased this artcile is, but...

GM has been releasing some good cars as of lately that are a HUGE improvement over the ones from 4+ years ago. Most Cobalt owners average near 30mpg, The new Malibu is a fine built car (FINALLY!) and I'v seen many of them on road as of lately.

[Codeine]

29. My Toyota Corrolla

has a quarter-million miles on the odometer. I doubt any American car from circa-1993 could have achieved such a milestone.

That said, I really like the look of the Dodge Caliber. When my Toyota finally dies I'll give the Caliber a fair chance.

[DainBramaged]

83. You are truly uninformed

We just took in a 1998 Malibu with 248,000+ miles on the odometer, and the owner kept it in such good shape the scrap yard guys bid on the car for the body parts. And it is on it's ORIGINAL engine. We had a '96 Olds Ciera come in for an oil change with (ready) over 310,000 miles on the odometer, original block, fresh synthetic oil every 3000 miles for the ORIGINAL owner, who has faithfully maintained it and the car is garage kept, so the paint is still shiny and rust free.

That's the NORM, but since you don't work for a car dealer or manufacturer, how could you make a statement like I doubt any American car from circa-1993 could have achieved such a milestone?

Oh, and we traded a Saturn L200 with over 200K on the odometer ONLY because we were offering $1000 cash on the new Malibu Hybrid. The owner would not buy a Japanese hype car. She still believes in American quality.

Chew on that for a bit.

[susanna]

114. Olds Ciera! Wow! Flashback for sure.

My 1985 ran for 209,000 miles with me as the original owner. I took great care of that car. I hated to get rid of it, but sold it to a friend who needed something reliable cheap. He drove it at least another 50,000 miles. I lost touch with him after that. Great little car. Excellent engine. A few electrical issues, but nothing earth-shattering and nothing unfixable.

Thanks, DainBramaged. I hadn't thought of "my little engine that could" for years. Good times. :-)

[susanna]

113. My husband's 1993 Ford Ranger says you're wrong. n/t

[Romulox]

33. I try to buy foreign products for EVERY type of consumer goods--American products can't compete

Can you imagine buying a Dell over a Lenovo, for example? :wtf:

American customer service, product design, and price are generally uncompetitive across the range of consumer goods.

[Indydem]

47. And people on this board will complain..

..when consumers go to Wal-Mart and buy a $2 Chinese pos because it is made overseas or Mexico or whatever. But there are SO MANY people who consider themselves "liberals" and will stab organized labor and American workers in the back and buy a Honda or a BMW. A $2 purchase infuriates them, but buying a $35k car is perfectly ok. Bizarro world!

[DainBramaged]

84. Really, than why do all of the foreign governments want American weapons?

Your statement is bullshit, and you have joined my massive ignore list for it.

[harun]

45. I would have no problem with General Motors selection of vehicles

and their current quality if they were a quarter the price.

[Indydem]

48. When was the last tiem you drove a GM product?

I have had absolutely NO problems with my 2000 Pontiac and it has 138k on it. I would buy another American made product in a heartbeat, but I suppose thats because I actually support Union labor and American jobs. Silly me.

[JNelson6563]

52. "Buy American" here!

I too drive American cars. I've got a little 2005 Dodge Neon that runs great and gets very good mileage. Before that was a Chevy Impala.

But hey, like you, I guess I'm just a dumbass for supporting Union labor and American jobs.

Julie

[harun]

66. I currently drive a 2002 Ford Focus

Bought a Buick in 1999. Died out of warranty with 3k in payments still left on it. Tried to get if fixed three times and no one got it running. Was out of money at that point so couldn't keep trying to fix it. Had no vehicle and had to ride my bicycle to work for 6 months while I paid off the Buick and saved up enough to get another vehicle. Leased a Ford Ranger for two years then bought the Focus.

My problem is not with GM's Union Labor it is with GM's Management. Fire all them and put the Union Guys in charge, they certainly can't do any worse than the current Management.

There are still plenty of Ford products I like.

[Mudoria]

76. Driving a 1989 Camaro... can't complain

about the service I've gotten from it and I've had it since I drove it off the lot in '89 . No Jap car could have done any better than this vehicle for me.

[Truth4Justice]

97. The trick with Japanese cars is they cost more to buy AND fix, but the gas-mileage is better.

So you trade one price for another.

[susanna]

115. I drive a 2007 Mercury Milan.

I think that car is amazing. Handles so smoothly it's addictive. The rumor is Ford is going to axe the Mercury line, but I wish they wouldn't. I would buy that car again in a heartbeat. I have been a total geek about it to friends and family, which is actually unusual for me. A car's a car...

Anyhow, no issues. None at all. Almost two years now, and drives as tight and quiet as the day I bought it. There is supposed to be a hybrid version on the way, and I would definitely get in line for that one.

[sakabatou]

50. What do you expect when almost no manufacturers

make 30+ mpg cars?

[Indydem]

54. What are you TALKING about?

Every single American automaker makes SEVERAL 30 MPG cars. Who's propaganda have you been reading?

Chevy Aveo - 34 highway
Chevy Cobalt - 33 Highway
Ford Focus - 35 Highway
Dodge Caliber - 29 Highway
Dodge Avenger - 30 Highway

And thats what the EPA says, which is usually crap. The EPA says my Pontiac should get 28 and I get 34+ highway.

[sakabatou]

56. OK, so I was wrong

What do you want me to do? Whip myself?

[CRF450]

81. Just mentally kick yoursefl

:hi: I dunno about the other cars, the Aveo does average 30+mpg, the Cobalt/G5, and the Ford Focus also average average around that same figure too.

[Codeine]

60. But

The Chevy Aveo is a Daewoo Kalos made in South Korea.

[CRF450]

82. I agree, they're rating alot of autos REALLY low now.

Every vehicle I have driven has gotten much better than the EPA estimates. My 01 Trans Am has a sticker EPA rating of 19/28. Now the EPA rates it 17/26 and an average of 18mpg when I actually get around 23mpg and have gotten 31mpg on the interstate. My Dodge Dakota is the same exact way, new EPA numbers for it are 14/18, while I actually get 16-17mpg.

Alot of people here are taking the new fuel milage estimates as "thats exactly what it gets". In my experience thats completely untrue, most autos get ALOT better than what the EPA is rating, and the sticker specifically says how much fuel milage can vary due to different driving conditions under those numbers! IMO they shoulda stuck with the old numbers, but a vocal minority didn't like how high theire Prius's were rated when they often didn't reach the EPA figures.

[DainBramaged]

86. I've been screaming it for YEARS here, thanks for your support

The new Cobalt gets 36MPG highway with a 5-speed (and that is the EPA rating). I drove a 2004 V6 Malibu to the GM auction 2 weeks ago. 384 miles round trip, Averaged 58 mph. It got 34.6 MPG round trip, on way less than ONE tank of gas. The 4cyl versions get over 36 mpg highway. A Toyota Camry can't even come close comparably equipped.

[flvegan]

65. Here's a good example why

A person looking for good and inexpensive transport with $18k to spend are more and more going to choose, for example, a Toyota Corolla over a Ford Focus. Even a Mazda 3 over the Focus, even though it's the same platform. Much of it is reputation for reliability and resale value. It's an unfortunate mindset that the big 3 allowed to develop.

American automakers could stand to look at why their European subsidiaries are doing so well. Take some styling cues for the Cobalt from the Astra. Even the Focus is better looking in the UK.

I think they'd also do well to bring their overseas performance trim levels over here. The Focus RS is a great little car. The SVT we got here is a mess. The Cobalt SS is a good start, but bring that Astra VXR over here and you'll sell every single one of them. While at it, don't get stupid with the prices like Pontiac did with the GTO, just to make them "exclusive".

[depakid]

70. Back in the 1980's, I had a Ford Escort in Britain

It was quintessentially European in handling and punch- while the model in the states was a crappy bucket of bolts that probably wouldn't have been safe to drive on many British roads.

[TommyO]

71. Thankfully, Ford is looking forward and doing this

The euro-Focus and our Focus will become the same vehicle worldwide, which can only be a good thing for the US Focus. Ford is also fusing the Mondeo and Fusion platforms into one, again portending good things for the Fusion's future.

[CRF450]

85. The GTO's starting price was real high because...

It was an already fully loaded vehicle. Their wasent much else to add to it, and it was an aging platform for a "limited" production car.

[flvegan]

87. Unless I'm mistaken, the new G8 is on that platform

should be much cheaper, too. The Holden the GTO was based on stayed cheap, unlike the GTO and the Vauxhall VXR. GM needed to not make another Corvette out of the GTO. Should've kept it a little simple.

[CRF450]

89. Not the same as the 04-06 GTO platform

Way newer and advanced. The Commodore platform is also home of the new Camaro, and terms of handling and overal performance it would totally hand the GTO its ass anyday. On the German NurburBring Ring, theirs reports and articles about Camaro being tested on that race course, and has a lap time of 8:20, thats better than the Nissan Skyline GT-R R32, and the BMW M3 E46! The 04-06 GTO wouldn't even touch either one of those cars.

[flvegan]

90. Which trim of the new Camaro did that?

And is it US spec? Very impressive, regardless.

[CRF450]

95. SS or Z28, which ever one the v8 model is.

As much as I love my 01 Trans Am, it wouldn't even touch that new Camaro as far as handling goes.

[flvegan]

96. Well, like I've posted before

Give a man $50k and see how fast he goes.

[susanna]

116. flvegan, having worked as a consultant in the hallowed halls of the Big 3

for a lot of years, I can tell you that a lot of underlings at these companies have said the same thing...ad nauseum...to any manager who would listen. Why hasn't it gotten through? Well, there is a layer of mid-management clay that is only interested in lying to their superiors and doctoring charts to show their (non) success.

Some of the execs are getting it now. They're realizing they have been hoodwinked. The lower echelon employees have been saying what you are for years. It may finally be getting through, now that these companies up against the wall. I just hope it isn't too late. Ford, notably, has made commitments recently to bring some of their Euro offerings stateside. Stay tuned, it may yet happen.

Just an insider's take.

[Deja Q]

67. Mostly because American brands make SUVs.

Health care has little to do with it, but the core issue with health care is costs -- the, eh, trickle down effect is seemingly obvious.

[phrenzy]

91. American cars CAN be great.

I am a Apple Mac snob, and predictably am a stickler for fit and finish on cars as well.

One of the most beautifully put together cars (IMO) in the mid 90s was the Lincoln Mark VIII LSC. This was my dream car and I got it. It had virtually NO cheap-o plastic in it and rode like a dream. No rattles, and the thing looked like a car darth vader would drive. The Aluminum modular V8 engine was brilliant.

It didn't sell. It was a car in a confused market. Basically, a luxury musclecar behind a brand that is mostly bought by 'seniors'.

Anyway, eventually the car got hit, and was "totalled" by insurance. I got a full pay out, and kept the Lincoln. I gave the damaged Lincoln to my mom and she got another 3 years out of it. Then she needed a 4 door so we sold it. The engine still ran like silk with 300+k miles on it.

When it was time for me to buy a new car, I wanted something with similar characteristics to the Lincoln, but with 4 doors. I test drove many different cars and ended up going with a used 1997 528i. I love the car and it has a similar feel to me that the Lincoln did. Unfortunately, none of the current luxury-sport cars that were made by US car companies were up to the standard of that car. Also, my roommate happened to be a BMW mechanic, so I knew I would have help working on it.

While I have no prejudice against American car companies, any objective person would admit that lately they have a habit of making tacky design decisions very often. This isn't to say that Foreign car companies are incapable of just a hideous designs. In fact, if you look at the new "Bangle" designed BMWs (especially the 5 series) they are as hideous and tacky looking as any bad American car design. So, let's not say that Americans are the only ones capable of producing poorly thought out products. Guess what, I won't be buying a Bangle designed BMW. There are two that are acceptable and that is the 3 series COUPE, and the new 1 series. All others are terrible.

Anyway, I hope that the Volt lives up to its potential. I am rooting for our American car companies to innovate and take the lead again.

I will NOT however reward a company (American OR Foreign) for making cars that are poorly designed.

[Indydem]

93. The loss of the Mark series was so sad...

My grandmother had a Mark VI that she passed onto my mother, it was the car I learned to drive in. Ended up trading it in in the late nineties - all of us regretted doing that.

The last car my grandfather (same side) had before he passed away was a Mark VIII on lease. He loved that car so much. It was a terrible shame he hadn't bought it or it might have stayed in the family. Every time I see a green Mark VIII I wonder...

[susanna]

117. Oh, phrenzy - I adored the Mark VIII. Gorgeous.

I never had one myself; I was working my way up in the industry and was a pure entry-level gal at the time, but that thing was amazing. A few of my manager-level compatriots had them. I just loved that car. I'm glad to hear you enjoyed yours. :-)

[CatholicEdHead]

92. I drive a older CRV but have a loaner 06 Civic right now

And they are both quality automobiles. Much of the difference is inside as much as in the engine and drivetrain. In my past American-brand cars I get many rattles and loose inside panels between 50K and 100K+. Approaching 100K on my CRV it is a solid as the day I got it.

I do not blame the UAW, but GM's marketing and limitations the design teams worked with from higher up the corporate ladder.

I would like to buy a Colbalt or HHR if I knew they would hold up, but they really have not changed since the Cavalier days.

[ogneopasno]

111. Only problem with a car I ever had was with a Toyota.

Since then, it's been American all the way, with no complaints. So, fuck AP.