Ukraine To Join In US-led Missile Shield In Europe

[Purveyor]

Source: Radio Netherlands

Published: Saturday 16 August 2008 12:20 UTC

Ukraine has agreed to take part in a missile defence system designed by the United States to protect Western countries. The government in Kiev defended its decision for military co-operation with the West, saying Russia cancelled a bilateral treaty with Ukraine earlier this year.

A few days ago, Poland and the United States reached agreement on the siting of missiles on Polish territory. These, together with radar installations in the Czech republic, make up the missile shield. Russia is fiercely opposed to the defence system and has threatened retaliatory measures.

The Ukrainian offer to co-operate with the US on the shield comes as the situation surrounding Russia's military operations in Georgia is increasingly tense. Ukraine's pro-Western President Viktor Yushchenko has strongly criticised Russia and is threatening to impose restrictions on Russian navy vessels' use of the port of Sebastopol in Ukraine.

Read more: http://www.radionetherlands.nl/news/international/59215...

---

Heard this reported on CNN.

It certainly won't be helpful and just may push the Russians to take all of Georgia once and for all.

[IndianaGreen]

1. This proves once again that Bush's missile "shield" is an offensive weapon against Russia

and has nothing to do with Iran.

[Igel]

4. No, it doesn't.

Now, if Ukraine were talking about returning Russia to Ukrainian control, or had it Ukraine just invaded trans-Dniestria or sunk the Black Sea fleet, you might have a point.

There is a point of view that "offensive" means 'able to hurt me or slow me down when I try to control or dominate you." Keys and mace in the hands of a woman are certainly offensive to a would-be rapist. Hell, even a deadbolt is hostile and rage-producing, if she's locked you out and you have a god-given right to use her body. This is a repugnant point of view based on a single-minded view on having a right to domination. Nietsche would be proud.

In this case, Poland's deal looks good on paper. Defensive missiles (or just radar), Patriot missiles, and a promise of fast intervention if attacked. With no serious threat to Russia's nuclear deterrance or territory. But a way to mitigate the implicit threat from Russia--suspending military cooperation, using military assets housed in Ukraine against Georgia, talking of being responsible for *all* Russians abroad (Ukraine has a nice Russian minority population) and not wanting problems with its near abroad.

Remember: While we suffered the outrages and inconveniences of the Depression, the Ukrainians suffered the Holodomor, and were treated as expendible by the Russians. Stalin's purges hit there hard. When the Western portions were re-annexed by Russia after WWII as part of the territorial spoils of war, the Ukrainians (who sided, sometimes gladly, sometimes reluctantly, with the Nazis) were badly purged and punished for their disloyalty while we endued the intense deprivations and massive casualties of the Cold War (snark). They were a Russian colony for centuries, conquered from Lithuanian/Poland--how do you think all the Russians got into what really was Ukrainian territory? These things are generally rejected as true by the Russians, or considered good. Just as how they dealt with Poland is either ignored or deemed just, for a great, just power. Katyn? Never happened. Budyonnyi's campaign? Eh, trivial.

Ukrainian was all but was forbidden in education, considered a corrupt dialect of Russian. Russia still resents having Russian de-emphasized in the Ukraine, and mock Ukrainians in ethnic terms. Ukraine is depriving Russia of ther rights by not submitting, many nationalists--including many siloviki--would say. Power is morality, if it's your power. Mother Russia wants her spiteful, rebellious children back.

Not everything revolves around * and the US presidential elections. We're just not that damned important. We are not the navel of the world, however much lint we may accumulate.

[reorg]

8. The overwhelming majority of Polish citizens do not agree that it "looks good on paper"

- whatever that is supposed to mean. And this view is shared by the overwhelming majority of Germans, too. I guess we were all tricked by the warmongering, evil Russians:

... As Putin told the G8 press in comments almost completely blocked out in western media, “if this missile system is put in place, it will work automatically with the entire nuclear capability of the United States. It will be an integral part of the US nuclear capability.”

In other words, missile “defense” is not defensive at all. It is offensive. If one of two nuclear opponents has nuclear strike ability and even a modest shield against retaliation from the other, he has what NATO strategists have dreamed of since the mid-1950’s: Nuclear Primacy. You can simply dictate terms of surrender to the other. The first nation with a nuclear missile shield would de facto have ‘first strike ability.’ Quite correctly, Lt. Colonel Robert Bowman, Director of the US Air Force missile defense program, recently called missile defense, “the missing link to a First Strike.”

We can dismiss the argument about Iran missiles. The Azeri offer of Putin for US missile shield would stand on the Iran border. The current US plans for Europe call to mind the September 2000 report which in addition to calling for regime change in Iraq also demanded upgraded priority to missile defense as a tool to “project US power.” That report, ‘Rebuilding America’s Defenses,’ by the hawkish Project for the New American Century, where Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld were members, declared, ‘The United States must develop and deploy global missile defenses to defend the American homeland and American allies, and to provide a secure basis for US power projection around the world.’ (author’s emphasis).

In his remarks at Heiligendamm, Putin reminded the press it was not Russia but the USA which started the new confrontation, when it unilaterally abrogated the US-Russian Anti Ballistic Missile Treaty in December 2001. Then Washington has supported color revolutions and pro-NATO regime changes on Russia’s borders. It has brought into NATO Poland, Latvia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Slovakia and Slovenia, formerly of Yugoslavia. NATO candidates include the Georgia, Croatia, Albania and Macedonia. Ukraine’s President, Victor Yushchenko, has tried to bring Ukraine into NATO. This is a clear message to Moscow, not surprisingly, one they don’t seem to welcome with open arms.

Putin noted with more than a little irony, “we have removed all of our heavy weapons from the European part of Russia and put them behind the Urals. We have reduced our Armed Forces by 300,000. We have taken several other steps required by the ACAF. But what have we seen in response? Eastern Europe is receiving new weapons, two new military bases are being set up in Romania and in Bulgaria, and there are two new missile launch areas -- a radar in Czech republic and missile systems in Poland. And we are asking ourselves the question: what is going on? Russia is disarming unilaterally. But if we disarm unilaterally then we would like to see our partners be willing to do the same thing in Europe. On the contrary, Europe is being pumped full of new weapons systems.”

(by F. William Engdahl)

http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/engdahl/2007/0...

[ohio2007]

18. article is from June 19, 2007 ? hey, Maybe they should take poll today ?

Think the results on public opinion will have skewed in a short 14 months about building the radar stations

[reorg]

22. maybe you should read the article

- it was in reference to the silly assertions by the previous poster.

Recent poll results about the "missile shield" are easy to find. In Germany, only the dumbest of the right-wing slime in the CDU are in favor of it.

[ohio2007]

26. maybe you should post the next poll later this week ? or will the scientific results

lose out to emotional fears ?

I'd like to see the polls of tomorrow but
thank you for bringing your hindsight yesterdays news links

Maybe you can provide a few googled links to european zogby,rasmussen etc.

the times they are a changing my friend

[Posteritatis]

20. I wish you could rec comments (nt)

[bemildred]

2. This is going to have a very divisive effect on the politics of various of

the former soviet republics. It could be very de-stabilizing. The Bushites are commiting folly of a high order here.

[fedsron2us]

9. No change there then.

[bemildred]

10. Yah. Roll them dice ... nt

[ixion]

3. I guess all these former soviet satellites haven't gotten the memo: The stupid thing DOESN'T WORK

but, hey, never underestimate the power of ignorance.

[creeksneakers2]

5. A senseless provocation

Why do we have to defend the world? If Russia is threatening its neighbors then Europe should cough up the dough and take the risk to defend themselves. They got a free ride last time and aren't contributing much now.

Nothing we can offer Ukraine is going to protect it from anything anyway. This is quickly turning into another excuse to restart the cold war for our gluttonous defense industry. Bush uses any excuse he can think of to buy more anti-missile technology.

[MilesColtrane]

6. A missile shield won't prevent tanks from rolling over the border.

Seems like Ukraine is letting themselves get the short end of this deal.

They agree to host a missile shield (that hasn't been proven to work) for Europe. In exchange, they get the promise of an invitation to join NATO at some future date, and the certainty of being targeted by nuclear weapons.

I'll bet, if push came to shove, Putin's the kind of guy who would be willing to bet that the United States wouldn't bring on the destruction of the entire world if Russia decided it wanted Ukraine.

[Jim Sagle]

24. Considering the piece of shit psycho now squatting in the White House, that's a very bad bet.

[creeksneakers2]

7. Some reading on Google News cleared this up for me a bit

I got the impression from the headline that we'd put anti-ballistic missile systems in Ukraine. What this is really about is the Ukraine using a missile detection system it already has in cooperation with the west. The Russians first built the system. It was designed to detect missiles coming from the west toward Russia. When the Ukraine split away, they kept the system.

[fedsron2us]

11. Boys with their toys

What the world really needs at the moment is more weapons systems.

Russia's real crime of course is that they have this crazy idea that all the oil and other natural resources that lie under their soil belong to them and not to the West's corporations. If only Putin would take to drink and allow his country to be raped like that nice Mr Yeltsin.

[paparush]

12. Thank goodness we have Condi to smooth this over with the Russians.

She's the Hindenburg of Diplomacy.

[shadowknows69]

13. Well apparently Poland and the Ukraine are led by idiots too

Have we even had one successful test of this junk ass program yet? Russia is laughing it's ass off.

[ohio2007]

14. East Europe tries to protect itself from Russia

WARSAW, Poland - Poland strikes a deal on a U.S. missile defense base. Ukraine tries to limit the Russian navy's movement in its waters. The Czech Republic's leader warns his nation is in danger of being sucked back into Moscow's orbit. Russia's attack on Georgia has sparked fears across the young democracies of Eastern Europe that Moscow is once again hungry for conquest — and they are scrambling to protect themselves by tightening security alliances with Western powers.

snip
Around the region, memories are being revived of the darkest days of Soviet oppression.

In Prague, where Czechs on Wednesday will mark the 40th anniversary of the Soviet invasion that crushed a reform movement, Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek expressed fears of history repeating itself.

"The Russian tanks on the streets of Georgian towns remind us ... of the invasion in 1968," Topolanek wrote in Mlada Fronta Dnes daily, the country's biggest newspaper.



snip
Eugeniusz Smolar, director of the Center for International Relations in Warsaw, said that countries like Poland and the Czech Republic are safer because they already belong to NATO and the EU.

"But not so with Ukraine; with Ukraine there is fear," Smolar said. "It's very unstable politically, there is a strong pro-Russian political element, plus there's strong activity of Russian intelligence."

Ukraine is strategically important to Russia because its pipelines carry Russian oil and gas westward, and its port of Sevastopol is home to Russia's Black Sea Fleet.

Above all, Ukraine, with its huge Russian-speaking population in its east and south, has immense emotional resonance for Russians — and Moscow has been humiliated by Ukraine's push to join NATO. Since fighting broke out more than a week ago between Russia and Georgia, the crisis has dominated headlines and sparked pro-Georgia rallies across Eastern Europe.

snip



Anxiety in the Baltic states runs deep in part because, like Ukraine, they have large Russian minorities.

There is fear that Moscow could repeat there what it did in South Ossetia, the breakaway republic where fighting began: Hand out passports to ethnic Russians. Moscow justified its attack on Georgia as necessary to protect its citizens.

snip
http://news.yahoo.com/s//ap/20080816/ap_on_re_eu/fearin...

Putin pushed the former satellites away from the loving arms of mother Russia as they made these snap decisions bc of news out of Georgia.
Wonder what Russians are thinking . Unless they only get the official one party spin of the news I suppose they don't know what may be comming up next

[reorg]

17. Well, until very recently the Ukrainian public was not too enthusiastic about NATO membership ...

03/06/2008 19:19 KIEV, June 3 (RIA Novosti) - ...

A poll conducted in April by the FOM-Ukraina pollster showed a majority of Ukrainians are against their country joining NATO.

The poll revealed that 54.9% of respondents would vote against joining the military alliance if a referendum were to be held tomorrow, and that 22.3% would back joining NATO.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/200...

[ohio2007]

19. Well, when will FOM-Ukraina run that same "If a referendum were to be held tomorrow" question

I would like to see those results posed in early september.

[IggyReed]

27. ...

if they're politically astute, they'd realize that joining NATO will being much more of the same. They go from being relatively independent to being a tool in the US’ drive for control. NATO, as everyone knows, is a tool in US hegemony. Obviously, because we’re not blind US partisans & try to be at least objective, we can see that putting weapons on the border of a country we oppose is going to cause more violence, as well as reactionary nationalism. It will make war more likely too, but what do you care? You’re thousands of miles away, your life isn’t in danger, you won’t go there to fight, you have basketball to watch and opinions to type online. Makes perfect sense. It does to the leaders though. They don’t have the same concerns & interests regular people do, although they’d like you to think they do and you apparently fall for it. They have other reasons for wanting to combat Russian influence, and they use people’s lives in their little game of geo political chess. I wish China were talking so passively about putting missiles in your neighborhood, and glossing over the fact that doing so would make it far more likely to cause you and people you care about to die a violent death. That's real life though.

[PFunk]

15. All of a book I've read weeks back called "War Day" becomes credible again.

As it was the US establishment of a SDI-like system which caused that novel's WWIII. And the US didn't come out great in that one. Any east block country that signs up to Bush's missile defense shield BS will be the first ones hit when WW III starts. Nice going folks-NOT.

[bemildred]

16. NATO to review dialogue with Russia

Russia is also a key energy supplier that some big European NATO members like France and Germany are loath to antagonize.

Russia was incensed by NATO's promise to Georgia in April that it would one day join the Western military alliance. This would take NATO right up to Russia's southern border and many analysts believe that and a similar promise of membership for Ukraine was one of the main causes of this month's fighting.

Rice said at the NATO meeting officials were likely to reaffirm those understandings from the Bucharest summit that Georgia and Ukraine would be allowed to join NATO eventually.

Tuesday's meeting is also expected to discuss monitoring of the Georgia ceasefire, humanitarian aid and the implications of the Russian action for Ukraine, diplomats said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge/idUSLG423019...

[rustydad]

21. A long cold winter for Ukraine

Ukraine won't go against Russia if it means their nat gas gets trimmed this winter. And the *shield* thing is a misnomer. It is actually a component of a first strike weapon system. It is utterly ineffective against inbound ballistic missiles. But it may be effective against ballistic missiles in their boost or takeoff phase. So if say we attacked Russia first and they then saw our missiles launching and attempted their own launch in a counter attack (MAD) we would attempt to intercept their missiles as they launched and while going relatively slow. If this system worked it would take away MAD, mutually assured destruction, almost surely triggering WW3. Russia will not allow this system to be in place on it's borders any more than we would allow such a system in Cuba, Mexico, or Canada. It is utterly destabilizing. Bob

[ohio2007]

23. If offering up a Soviet-built satellite facility as part of the European missile defence system

gets the gas shut off again then yes, it will also be a cold winter for Russian ships stuck at sea




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukrain...

[Vidar]

25. Good way to get a lot of Europeans & Americans killed. Historically,

the Russians have all sorts of reasons to justify their paranoia. Poking the Russian bear with a stick is a lousy idea.

[martymar64]

28. I guess Ukraine doesn't need Russian natural gas or oil then

They can go buy it from the Arabs like the rest of the west. Or freeze this winter.

[ohio2007]

29. Ukraine to increase rent for Russian Fleet by up to 25 times

From January 1, 2009, the Ukrainian leadership is planning to put up the rent for the Crimean territories where Russia’s Black Sea Fleet is stationed, according to Russia’s Nezavisimaya Gazeta newspaper. It claims the corresponding documents are being prepared by Ukraine’s Ministries of Foreign Relations and Defence.

The rent price was calculated in 1997 and defined in the treaty of disposition of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet on the territory of Ukraine. The calculations took into consideration the Ukraine’s debt to Russia, which at the time was $US 2 billion, and the cost of renting port facilities was agreed at $US 98 million.

snip


It seems that the Ukrainian leadership is interested in creating the most uncomfortable conditions for Russia’s Black Sea Fleet as its stationing in the Crimea may hinder the country’s joining the NATO.

http://russiatoday.com/news/news/29814

[skoalyman]

30. well I guess I need to dig my nuke bunker in the basement alittle deeper

after reading this bush and dick are insane

[hogwyld]

31. Russia may not stop at Georgia

Russia feels threatened right now, and rightfully so as we continue to poke them with our missles systems, NATO memberships at their backdoor. I think this is going to lead Russia into retaking all of Georgia, Ukraine, and the baltic states to get back a buffer zone from US hegemony.

[AlphaCentauri]

32. Are we going to destroy Russia and then China?

what are our real intentions there?

[Selatius]

33. There is going to be another world war in Europe by the end of this century.

The US and its tool the NATO alliance has provoked Russia into a hostile stance. This will not end well.

[skoalyman]

35. we can also send them our republicans they full of hot air after all

[dipsydoodle]

34. I do hope the Ukrainians

have started stocking up on wood for the winter because at this rate they'll have fuck all else to keep them warm.

I am of course assuming that Bushy doesn't intend giving them all the gas they'll need courtesy of the good ol' American tax payer.

[ohio2007]

36. Polish parliament wants push for Georgia, Ukraine to join NATO

WARSAW (AFP) -- The Polish parliament on Tuesday urged NATO to step up work for ex-Soviet republics Georgia and Ukraine to join the Western military alliance amid tensions over the Caucasus conflict.


""The Parliament of the Republic of Poland holds the position that the right answer for NATO to give in the current situation should be the intensification of activity for the membership of Georgia and Ukraine in the North Atlantic Alliance,"" reads the unanimously adopted resolution.

Polish lawmakers also urged the European Union to ""conduct a determined policy of eastern enlargement"" and condemned Russia's military action in Georgia.

""The continuation of the West's dialogue with Russia demands its unequivocal respect for the basic principles of international law,"" the resolution says.

The move comes as Georgia on Tuesday formally broke diplomatic relations with Russia following its occupation of parts of the country and recognition of two breakaway Georgian regions, South Ossetia and Abhkazia.

snip
http://www.tehrantimes.com/Index_view.asp?code=177078