Russia: Poland risks attack due to U.S. missiles

[underpants]

Source: MSNBC

Infuriated Moscow issues threat in reaction to deal on interceptor base

WARSAW, Poland - An agreement that will allow the United States to install a missile defense battery in Poland exposes the ex-communist nation to an attack, a Russian general said Friday.

Poland and the United States struck a deal on Thursday to deepen military ties and place a missile interceptor base in Poland.

Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of the Russian general staff told reporters Friday that the agreement exacerbates U.S.-Russian relations that are already tense because of fighting between Georgian and Russian forces. He said the deal “cannot go unpunished.”

“Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent,” Interfax quoted Nogovitsyn as saying.



Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26203430

---

Okay look W you don't know what you are doing just stop now. You have been played by every single foreign element you have dealt with even at arms length. You are a child in a grown-up world and the whack job in your ear (Dick) should know more but clearly remains entrenched in a now non-existent world where bluster and false bravado earned you credit mostly because it enlongated the fake struggle far longer than it should have. We live in a new world where action is on option and every single thing you and your sponsors/lackeys have done has failed miserably.

[Altean Wanderer]

1. The Cold War is back, baby...

and I'm sure the weapons manufacturers like that just fine! Too bad the rest of us get the radioactive fallout.

[Cooley Hurd]

4. Great News! I was getting bored with being afraid of Muslims...

...and I missed the good ol' days of Ivan Drago:


And, think about it - today's kids get to experience "Duck & Cover!":woohoo:

:sarcasm:

[Rhiannon12866]

10. Where is Karol Wojtyla when we need him?

Oh, right...;(

[Virginia Dare]

41. Where is JFK when we need him?

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[Rhiannon12866]

60. Him, too. ;(

But we still have Jimmy Carter, who I credit for bringing down the USSR with his grain embargo, just as I credit Pope JP II for helping to free Poland by working behind the scenes to support Solidarity. Unfortunately, the current administration is way too partisan and full of itself to ever call on him...;(

[Virginia Dare]

62. Agreed, Pope JP and Lech Walesa did all the work..

Reagan took all the credit.

[Rhiannon12866]

65. Exactly! That really sends me over the edge...

:grr:

When I was in Russia, the people there hated Reagan. Mikhail Gorbachev was trying to institute reforms, perestroika and glasnost, but Reagan's refusal to back down on anything made it much more difficult, brought out the hard-liners who opposed the reforms.

One of the ladies I was with needed her purse repaired and we found a shoemaker's shop, a little old lady. When she found out that we were American, she spat on the floor, said she hated Reagan. But when my friend said she did too, supported Jimmy Carter, the woman's face lit up and I ended up taking her photo hugging my friend...:-)

[goforit]

121. We may not have JFK, but we may soon have Bay of Pigs repeat.

[Cooley Hurd]

74. Is the Pope sleepy? Is he?

...goochie-goochie-goo!:rofl:

[14thColony]

20. Perversely

History since 1945 indicates that a nuclear-armed bi-polar world is generally safer than our current mono-polar world.

[MadrasT]

42. Time to resurrect Bert

[Virginia Dare]

49. Already done...

[MadrasT]

66. *snort*

:rofl:

[kittycat1164]

67. I never saw the similarities before - but now that you mention it.....

:rofl:

[Rhiannon12866]

71. OMG! That IS him!!!

:rofl:

[tabasco]

113. L-O-L! n/t

[harun]

48. Hatin on Muslims wasn't working out for either side

Back to tried and true, COLD WAR! Where both sides get to spend trillions on weapons and not really ever have to use them. They just beat up on little weak nations nearby and profit, profit, profit.

[KansDem]

126. "Duck & Cover"

Just dandy! Now I've got that tune going through my head...

Hey, I like this one...!

...although it looks like "seeing the flash" burned out his left eye.

[adamuu]

13. PNAC, Neo-cons... this IS 1968.

PNAC, Neo-cons have always wanted this.

Congratulations.

It is terrifying that quivering Condi's statement to Russia was "This is not 1968" (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/08/condoleezza-rice-warns-russia-this-is.html)
...heh yeah well be careful what you wish for.
you wanted it now you got it.

[cobalt1999]

2. Wow, Russia is pumped up now.

Saying forget about Georgia's independence, threatening the Ukraine, now threatening Poland.

I guess they are trying to get their entire empire back right now.

[DUlover2909]

11. Don't they remember why they gave up their claim on those places?

[dipsydoodle]

3. exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent

Only 100% ?

[RantinRavin]

5. Let's see now

Russia is going to attack Poland for installing a missle system to protect itself from attack....


Makes about as much sense as a submarine with a screen door.

[paparush]

75. Don't let the DOD get ahold of that screen door idea. $39Bn dollars later, they'll agree with you.

[RantinRavin]

99. I'll sell them

the one from my porch for a measly 10 billion.

[Virginia Dare]

6. Deja vu all over again..

I have a Polish friend and there is nobody in the world they hate more than Russians. People mistake her for Russian all the time, and she goes postal whenever it happens. The Russians really did some horrible things to them that haven't been forgotten.

[Rhiannon12866]

14. I know. My mother is Polish and she feels the same way.

And when I was in Russia, leaving there through customs, actually, the customs guy was having a conversation with our guide, in Russian, about me. Apparently, he was asking her if I wasn't really a Russian. She managed to convince him otherwise. I just smiled and told him, in Russian, thank you for the compliment. The Russian people are decent, want the same things that we do, but they've had some pretty terrible governments and it's happening again...:scared:

[Virginia Dare]

28. People try and speak Russian to my friend all the time..

and she pretends she doesn't understand.

[Rhiannon12866]

61. That is quite bizarre...

I know enough polite words in Russian to get by, but most people in Russia, the younger ones, anyway, are fluent in English. They emphasize languages a lot more than we do. Americans just expect everyone else to know English.

I know more Polish than Russian, but not enough to be fluent, though I could understand my Polish grandmother when she was living, but now I've lost most of it...;(

[NOLALady]

7. And so it begins.

[pampango]

8. Some seem to believe that Russia is justified in insisting that governments in their region

must have pro-Russian, not pro-Western, policies.

I believe that Poland has the same right as an independent country to install a missile defense battery from the US as Venezuela does to buy jets from Russia for its air force. We would howl loudly if Cheney said “Venezuela, by purchasing (the jets) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent,” Interfax quoted Cheney as saying.

[nebenaube]

16. yes..

but how is that inconsistent with our own Monroe Doctrine and our actions during the Cuban Missile Crisis? All the Russians are saying is these installations pose a threat and they will be targeted. It does not say they are actually going to attack. But that's right only Israel and the US have the right to pre-emptive military strikes in order to preserve our security.

[pampango]

17. I would agree that we are as hypocritical as Russia is, if that is your point.

Of course, the Cuban Missile Crisis was at the height of the Cold War. I would hope that we are all operating on slightly different rules than we were during that era.

I don't think we have the right to threaten Cuba or Venezuela nor does Russia have a right to threaten Poland or Ukraine. And just because Bush took the "right" to preemptive military strikes to preserve our security, doesn't mean that he was justified in doing it or does it prove that such a "right" really exists. If Russia feels threatened by Poland (given their respective sizes and military power), they must have a really extreme inferiority complex.

[AlphaCentauri]

27. Then If WE feel threatened by LatinAmerica, WE must have a really extreme inferiority complex

Human nature

[pampango]

34. I would agree, if we did feel threatened by them. Do we? n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

43. just remember the brown invasion from the south

hate crimes against latino immigrants have increased that should tell something about the psi-que and dementia of the social state of mind.

[pampango]

46. I'll certainly grant you that. There is an hysteria about the "brown invasion" that is so

incompatible with our culture and history of immigration.

The only thing is that our "build a high fence and shot anything that tries go get over it" types in the US probably can convince themselves that they are superior to those in the "brown invasion".

[Hugabear]

19. Venezuela is a bit different from Poland

I'm talking about proximity. How do you think we'd react if Russia were setting up military installations within a few hundred miles of our borders, ie in Mexico or Cuba?

[WriteDown]

25. Considering....

It is a defensive missile shield and Russia just attacked Georgia with missiles. I can see why Poland may be more inclined to want this system now. The real issue is going to be the Ukraine now. They are going to want to be fast-tracked into NATO. Considering they are bordered by 3 NATO countries(I think?) things would be a tad different there.

[AlphaCentauri]

31. Considering that Poland is not buying the system to be used by them selves

what they are doing is setting a US military base with those artifacts so the Russians may have the same right to set military bases in any country of the Americas.

After all, the neo-cons don't see the extremist muslims as enemies because they can be manipulated very easy with bribery changing "God message", is clear what they are after is the russians.

[WriteDown]

38. Not sure what exactly you said...

But would you be opposed to Poland becoming a member of NATO. Seems to be what they want. Ukraine as well. The truth of the matter is that Russia hasn't offered any incentive to its satellite nations to remain loyal or subservient to Russia. They have looked to the West. Whether of not you agree with the action, that is the reality. I would have no problem with Venezuela or Cuba doing the same. Its a wonder as to why they have not.

[AlphaCentauri]

51. In latin america there is a movement to become more independent

not instruments of the super powers, they are learning the lesson that playing puppet of other countries halts their progress.

[14thColony]

59. Errrrrr...Poland is a member of NATO...

And has been for a while. At least according to the Polish officers assigned here with me in this NATO unit I work in...

[WriteDown]

63. Haven't had my coffee this morning.

I must be tired.

[amandabeech]

64. Poland is a member of NATO already, as are Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

The U.S. would be manning military bases located in the territory of another NATO country. We have military bases in Germany, which was the front line country during the cold war, which seems to be restarting.

[14thColony]

70. True, but Poland and the Baltic States are not a good analogy to West Germany

There was an 'understanding' between the US and Russia in the 1990s that NATO membership, IF it extended into the East at all, would only extend to former Warsaw Pact nations, not to countries that had actually been part of the USSR, like the Baltic States and Georgia. But when it came down to it we said "oh well, the bear's on its last legs, so what're they going to do anyway?" Well, the bear is back and now we're seeing what they're going to do.

I always think it's critical to see things from the other side and ask yourself 'what would I think if the tables were turned?' The USSR collapsed, the Warsaw Pact disinitegrated, and slowly NATO and the US encroached; first German forces move into eastern Germany as Poland, Czechoslvakia (at the time), Hungary, and Romania become more western-friendly. Then these countries become NATO members and the 'defensive alliance' now bordered the old USSR. Next the Baltic States joined up, and NATO was now in the boundaries of the old USSR. Then the Central Asian states were only too happy to host NATO bases in support of Afghanistan operations. Next Georgia is making noises to join NATO, an even older Russian-orbit country than the Baltic States. Again, this is from their perspective as I understand it. You might start feeling like the buzzards are circling and you're the carcass, huh? Might even feeling a bit like lashing out, especially as you revive economically.

Russia has a cultural paranoia about encirclement and invasion. They were invaded, massacred, and conquered for centuries by the Mongols, invaded and devastated by Napoleaonic France, and lost 20 million people repelling the German/Axis invasion in WWII. That leaves a scar on the psyche that doesn't go away fast. Russia decided after WWII that the next war would be on someone ELSE's turf for once, not theirs. The Warsaw Pact was a buffer against the next invasion - the international version of human shields. Well now that's gone, and paranoia of encirclement is high, and if given the chance the Russian mindset is to create space again, by whatever means neccessary. Russia is regaining its power, and its instinct is to re-create its protective buffer of suitably docile peripheral states.

Wouldn't it be great if we had a Soviet/Russian political expert as Secretary of State who might have an insight into such things?

[amandabeech]

76. I am aware of and have considered most of the points that you make in your post,

and have either disagreed with or been less certain of some of the choices that the U.S. and European governments made at that time. Your exposition of the Russian viewpoint is about the best short summary that I've seen in a long time.

It is not only Russia that bears the scars of its history. Being the primary target of Russia's nuclear ire during the Cold War left its scars on the psyches of those of us living here at the time. I won't go into the details here because I'm sure that you are well aware of them. As Bush would have been better advised on his choice of secretary of state, Putin might have been wiser to have found a foreign minister who better understands the U.S.

Fortunately, we may have a general shift in direction following the upcoming election and the possibility of the appointment of a secretary of state who would be able to "walk in the other person's moccasins," to quote an old saying. It will more difficult, I think, for Medvedev and Putin to do the same without loosing face.

At the end of this Georgian crisis, or the end of the current general unpleasantness between Russia and the U.S. whenever that may come, I'm sure that the accounting will show mistakes relating to perspective and the general stupidity of all who were involved.

[14thColony]

56. Of course...

Poles won't even be allowed on the bases where the missile system is installed, and certainly won't have control over it.

Plus it would be useless against the type of missile Russia used against Georgia. SRBMs don't fly high enough to get into the system's engagement zone, and Poland ain't got no PATRIOTs...

[pampango]

29. For some reason Mexico and Cuba (and Canada) apparently don't fear a US invasion,

thus have not felt the need to request any Russian assistance. Perhaps Poland is not so sanguine about the intentions of its neighbor to the east.

Do I blame the Russian government for being upset about missiles going into Poland? No. They have a right to be upset with whomever they wish. (As you say, the US would be upset with Mexico or Cuba if they did the same thing, because they did not trust our intentions.)

Do I think that Poland has the right to determine its own foreign policy with regards to its powerful neighbor? Yes, as do Cuba and Mexico, and to do so without fear of invasion.

[AlphaCentauri]

37. How many people in latin america has die due to our imposition selecting their leaders?

[pampango]

52. Way too many. Latin American countries have every right to defend themselves

against our interference in their affairs, as does Poland with regard to Russian interference.

[L0oniX]

22. Purchasing jets from Russia is not the same thing as Russians operating a missile base in Venezuela

We would be operating that base in Poland, not selling them missiles.

[14thColony]

23. This is the return of Realpolitik

Great Powers simply do not tolerate hostile governments in their immediate sphere of influence; not from the Roman Republic or the British Empire to the modern US, nor Russia now.

It's not neccesaarily right or wrong, but it is what it is. This is how Great Powers have always played the game, and, unless humans change a lot, always will.

Yes, Central and South American countries can purchase weapons from whomever they want, or curry favor from other Great Powers. Sometimes, as Grenada, Cuba, Nicaragua, Chile, and so on have found, it does not end well.

Please note I am NOT advocating that this is right. I think much of what the US has done in our sphere, as an example, is morally beyond the pale. Nonetheless for the last few thousand years this is the way the game is played. This is Realpolitik.

[Virginia Dare]

32. The importance of oil and oil pipelines in this region..

cannot be forgotten either. Putin is trying to gain an all important edge here. If I lived in Azerbaijan right now, I'd be worried.

[14thColony]

54. True and not to be forgotten

But I still think the goal was intimidation and re-establishment of hegemony in the Near Abroad. Russia had a prime opportunity to take those pipelines off the market for a while (an accident could surely be arranged in the middle of a war), but didn't do it. Russia supplies 25 percent of Europe's oil and half its natural gas - that market's already under their control.

True, Russia isn't thrilled about Azerbaijan's energy competition, but Azerbaijan has done better playing the nice-neutral game in the last few years, certainly better than Georgia. I think as long as peripheral countries don't oppose Russia's regional hegemony, they're going to be fine. Again, not saying it's right or wrong, just that it is.

[rustydad]

77. No

That is not a apt comparison. Putting a anti-missile defensive weapon in Cuba, Mexico, or Canada is the more apt comparison. The problem is that this system undermines the deterrence against a first strike, the MAD doctrine. The time when a ballistic missile is vulnerable is when it is in the boost stage while traveling at low velocity. The systems that we want to install in Poland could possibly be used to destroy Russian missiles launched after a first strike by the US on Russia. And that would make MAD moot. The Russians will not allow this nor would we. Bob

[JVS]

9. Oh noes!

Polish missile crisis

[adamuu]

12. relates to "Bush hits Russia on 'bullying and intimidation'" (link)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3440107

[bemildred]

15. I guess "All options are on the table" eh? nt

[sourmilk]

18. Gee, I wonder wht the price will be for getting Russian soldiers out of Georgia?

The Russians are the true masters of detente.

[L0oniX]

21. I am happy that Russia is pushing back. The US needs to stop policing the world.

We need to take care of our own people and our own country and quit spending our money on other countries. The asscarrots who invest in the war machine can go choke on it ...damned blood suckers! This is all about war and power for capitalism running wild.

[WriteDown]

26. The Polish, Ukrainians, and Georgians....

may disagree.

[Virginia Dare]

30. Exactly. Two wrongs don't make a right..

of course the U.S. is in no position unfortunately to do anything about it, unless we're willing to take a chance at igniting WWIII

[WriteDown]

39. The U.S, could do something about it, but I am not sure that..

anyone wants that. A naval and air barrage would be really bad in sooo many ways. I think we are seeing the limits of NATO and the UN though.

[Virginia Dare]

40. Of course this is exactly what the neocons wanted...n/t

[WriteDown]

44. Not sure about that...

I think the neocons want the inclusion of the Ukraine in NATO. At this point, I would say its a given and I am not opposed in this one instance. I don't believe they planned this, but Putin made it easy for them.

[Virginia Dare]

47. What I meant was in terms of..

diminishing the influence of the U.N. and NATO. I don't think things are going now quite as they had envisioned in terms of Russia. We know that Bushco has underestimated Putin for a long time. They should have reined him in long ago, but he had them bamboozled. Not hard to do with that sorry lot, especially for a cagey spy like Putin.

[Psephos]

95. How would you have proposed "reining Putin in"? n/t

[L0oniX]

128. Better hope McLame doesn't get elected because you know he will go to war.

McLame's answer for all conflicts is the military. What a dumb ass he is.

[L0oniX]

57. When are they going to help us? We are about to go bankrupt and yet we are supposed to help everyone

We have enough of our own problems to deal with.

[L0oniX]

120. Hmmm ...are they states in our country?

[ohio2007]

36. SO... you got room in your mom's bomb shelter basement or all your friends

that think we should throw east europe under the bus ?

and you wonder why half the world "hates" us now?
well, a few more domino nations won't make that much a difference it seems.

Yep, freedom for them is overated since the price tag is steep for all sides,

on edit;
What's Dennis Kucinich's latest stand on these current events?

You know his 10th district voters have and hold deep roots behind the iron curtain....

[L0oniX]

55. Why do we have to help everyone continually? Who made us the world police?

What about our country? How about we help our country for a change. How about jobs ...energy ...infrastructure ...corruption in our government ...education ...pollution ...health care ...etc How about we quit sending our money to China and have our own factories for a change? There's too many reasons why we should not continue to help others right now. We have been helping other countries for way too long and they all hate us anyway. Fuck them!

[Psephos]

96. Now that's the spirit! "Fuck them!"

As Lennon said, "I Me Mine."

And this is a liberal board. lol

[L0oniX]

117. You can only help others when you have your own house in order.

BTW everyone is entitled to an opinion or would you rather everyone only think act and talk like you? It isn't like we haven't helped a lot of countries over the past but why do we think we have to keep doing it? If we stop helping other countries does that mean what we have done doesn't count for anything? I happen to think that it is about time the USA spends some of its money and effort on the home front for a change before we go bankrupt and run out of energy.

Oh ...and this is a democratic board which includes liberals, conservatives, progressives, and even greenies.

[Psephos]

123. I seem to be able to help others when my house is messy

I don't quite follow your logic there.

I absolutely agree that everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I'm glad we both have a place to post ours. I don't want everyone to think, act, and talk like me. Exposure to differing points of view is the only way to evolve our opinions and our decisions...otherwise we remain stuck in dogma like mastodons stuck in the La Brea tars.

I do find it a bit jarring to see someone here casually saying "fuck 'em" about people in deep trouble whose only sin is that they live on the other side of a line drawn on a map. To my way of thinking that's the antithesis of liberal sensibilities.

[L0oniX]

125. Poland is being used for American imperialism. The expression "fuck em" represents my discust...

with those countries which have given in to American interests which are making money from the war machine. Poland has decided to allow American military missile basses on their homeland. I hate war capitalism and those that capitulate to it. To those that do so ...fuck them.

[Codeine]

135. Russian War Capitalism doesn't bother you, though? nt

[L0oniX]

138. Russia is only making threats because of the US missile bases in Poland.

I suppose having US missile bases in Poland is just fine with you huh.

[Codeine]

139. My question was about war capitalism.

Really lousy dodge.

[L0oniX]

119. I suppose the Iraqies have/had bomb shelters too

[Posteritatis]

93. You're happy that countries are being threatened with attack?

I knew this place had a black-and-white view of geopolitics, but that's ridiculous even by the standards.

[L0oniX]

118. Go work for FOX ..I am more concerned with our country and our future not theirs.

[Posteritatis]

131. Wow, contempt for threats of force is conservative now? (nt)

[L0oniX]

132. you and your country are welcome to go over there and die for them if you wish.

[ohio2007]

24. Troops stretched thin ? Maybe it's time for the "N" word.

NATO's Article V;
An attack on any one member is considered an attack on all.

Looks like it's going to be a return to the era of brinskmanship diplomacy on the JFK October suprise level. Just have to watch the words they use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLjhRtn9j4A&feature=related

[Virginia Dare]

35. I would not be shocked at all if this ended up in a nuclear stand-off..

let's hope that's all it is, but both Putin and Bush scare the shit out of me. At least Kennedy and Kruschev were sane and level headed...:scared:

[harun]

50. Neo-cons are drooling all over themselves just at the thought of that (n/t)

[ohio2007]

79. Putin is a neocon?

Russia in nuclear threat to Poland

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3440967

[DU GrovelBot]

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[LynnTheDem]

45. As with Iraq, Poland just wants the oil.

What goes around will come around, Poland.

You should have learned that long ago.

[pampango]

72. If Poland just wants oil, wouldn't they do everything possible to keep Russia happy,

instead of standing up to them.

"What goes around will come around"? Sounds like a threat. Either you are nice to Russia and do what it wants or look out.

[MadrasT]

53. Kick

Because this situation pisses me off so much.

[Regret My New Name]

58. Oh great... First us and now Russia...

Can't we all just be Canadians?

[L0oniX]

129. Unfortunately many Americans are knee jerk reacting meat heads who would rather fight than think.

[David__77]

68. While I do not agree with such power politics...

...paradoxically, this helps ensure stability. It's important for multiple power centers to maintain strategic balance. This is surest way to prevent further mishaps like Iraq, Afghanistan, and the would-be invasion of Iran.

[14thColony]

78. True isn't it?

The experiences since 1992 certainly indicate a monopolar world isn't very safe.

[Blue_Tires]

69. Russia DIDN'T forget Poland.....

[Rhiannon12866]

73. But George Bush* has...

;(

[patrick t. cakes]

80. i ike that....

"We live in anew world where action is an option...."
thats right on.

Pandoras box is open

the blustering and false bravado is being called out.

georgie boy has weakened us so.

[question everything]

81. Russia in nuclear threat to Poland

Source: Times Online

August 16, 2008
Russia in nuclear threat to Poland
Catherine Philp and Tony Halpin in Tbilisi

Russia threatened Poland with a nuclear strike yesterday as the ripples of the Caucasus conflict spread through Europe and pitched West against East along new borders. In a chilling echo of the Cold War, Russia gave warning that Poland was “exposing itself to a strike — 100 per cent” after signing a deal with the US to set up a missile shield on Polish soil.

The threat, the strongest since the fall of the Soviet Union, came as President Saakashvili of Georgia was forced to accept defeat as he signed a truce giving the Russian Army the right to patrol Georgian soil.

General Anatoli Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of the general staff in Moscow, said that Russian military doctrine sanctioned the use of nuclear weapons “against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them”, as Poland had done in signing the deal.






Read more: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4543744.ece

[CJCRANE]

82. No More Mr Nice Guy

from Russia.

Heckuva job Bush-Cheney.

[Renew Deal]

83. This just proves Poland right for signing the deal.

Russia needs to scale back the bellicose behavior. They suspect that the US is weak, but we're not as weak as they think.

[TomInTib]

84. We are scared witless of the Russians.

We have nothing left but nukes.

If we use nukes against Russia, China will jerk the rug out from under us. We join the ranks of Third World almost overnight.

[Renew Deal]

86. No one is using any nukes.

If anyone does, it's lights out. The US still has a lot of influence all over the place. They can make Russia's life very difficult.

I read somewhere that they're doing this before the change of president. I think they know the next president will be a little brighter and more resolute.

[MellowDem]

94. Seriously?

I hope you are not serious. You do realize that China depends on us as much as we do on them? What would happen to their economy overnight if they stopped selling to their number 1 buyer? And what exactly do you think the relationship between China and Russia is right now? They are not gung-ho allies, that's for sure.

[FreakinDJ]

85. Just exactly what course of action would we use?

I would really like to know

The military option has been a Mexican Stand Off for the last 60 years since the coming of the Nuclear Arms race.

We fought Russia/China by proxy through Vietnam and we all know how that worked out. Now should Russia decide to pour arms through Afghanistan or Iraq in the form of "Stinger Missiles" we would have a serious problem

[Renew Deal]

87. Mostly economic.

Isolation. Starve the beast. It's worked before.

[CJCRANE]

88. Russia is now a capitalist country with oil revenues.

It's a little harder to starve the beast these days.

[Renew Deal]

89. You're right.

It's certainly not easy. I don't think Russia is as powerful as they have tried to make people think. And still, it seams like making their lives difficult is good enough. Of course, that can go both ways.

[Baby Snooks]

91. They are an oligarchy...

Russia and China are now oligarchies as is the United States which in terms of capitalism is a restricted capitalism. As in only a few control it all. The Bushes and their fellow oligarchists, the "neo-conservatives" whose policies are still the order of the day with Congress, believed that the Russian and Chinese oligarchists would become a part of their oligarchy as others in other countries, particularly Mexico, had. They didn't plan on the Russian and Chinese oligarchists becoming independent of them and standing apart from them but that is what happened. There is no longer only the West as a "superpower" but the East as well. And it is becoming quite formidable.

Oligarchy is similar to communism except the corporation replaces the state and similar to fascism except that the corporation controls the government. Free markets suddenly are no longer free markets and in fact are controlled and manipulated for the benefit of a few.

The danger we face is the result of Congress allowing this administration to remain in power and a growing number of people worry that we are headed for confrontation with Russia and for a nuclear war that will be the shortest and deadliest world war and probably the last one simply because the survivors will remember the reality. Within hours, half of the world would be dead or dying because once the war starts, it will spread quickly and no country really will be safe.

Both the Russian and Chinese will target Africa and South America to prevent another United States from forming. Oligarchist or not, they are still communist countries. And the capitalism of a democracy is considered both a threat and an enemy of the people. And of course once the communications and guidance systems begin to malfunction from the intitial airblasts around the world, there will be missiles that simply have no target. And will explode at random over areas that weren't even targets. Not a pretty picture. But one few really can conceive.

And Congress sits by once more and does nothing. Wishing they had, perhaps, and realizing it may be too late.

[FreakinDJ]

102. What makes you think that would work?

Russia has Oil - China has Billions of American Dollars

Russia needs Dollars - China needs oil

Economic sanctions won't amount to much in this case

[gulliver]

90. It's worth it.

When Russia's nukes start to fly toward Poland, they will have our missile interceptor system to defend them. Of the 50 nuclear missiles Russia launches on Poland, only about 50 will make it to their target.

[tabasco]

114. Hahahahahaha.

There has never been a successful test of the system. NEVER.

"Missile defense" is a profiteering scam, intended only to funnel billions of our tax dollars to profiteering CEOs.

Wake the fuck up.

[Regret My New Name]

124. I believe that was his/her point...

read? nahhh...

[unkachuck]

92. but of course....

"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent,..."

....in this new bush-world-order every nation with a little muscle has the god-given right to attack any lesser nation in self-defense....real or perceived....

....c'mon bushco, take on the great Russian bear and show them who's the boss of the world....what are you guys, wimps?

[Odin2005]

97. Good God people, Russia is threatening one of our allies and you guys are...

...gleefully sucking up to Russia? The BS the neo-cons are up to is no excuse for the BS being spewed by the Russia apologists in this thread. Christ, people; this is reminding me of when people were rambling on and on about how such a great guy the president of Iran is. :eyes:

The right-wing-nuts aren't the only people with a problem with black and white thinking, apparently.

[Psephos]

98. They would suck up to Stalin if he was still alive

Just the way so many Western toads did in the 30s.

Putin, meanwhile, cannot even bring himself to condemn Stalin as a criminal. Putin's exact words were that "some consider him to have been a criminal."

I take it that few upthread have read any Solzhenitsyn. Or Eric Hoffer, for that matter. Or Anna Politkovskaya. They're the same ones who don't realize that DU could not exist in Russia without members having to fear physical retribution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya_assassination

Anyway, good on you, Odin, for saying what needs to be said.

[daleo]

133. I read The Gulag Archepeligo and The Cancer Ward

If I remember, though, Solzhenitsyn turned out to be a slavophile in the end, who was in agreement with Putin. Things can be complicated that way.

MOSCOW - In the last years of his long and stubbornly contrarian life, Alexander Solzhenitsyn finally found a political system he could embrace: Vladimir Putin's Russia.

"Putin inherited a ransacked and bewildered country, with a poor and demoralized people," Solzhenitsyn told the German magazine Der Spiegel in a 2007 interview, when Putin was still president. "And he started to do what was possible, a slow and gradual restoration. These efforts were not noticed, nor appreciated, immediately. In any case, one is hard-pressed to find examples in history when steps by one country to restore its strength were met favorably by other governments."

http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2008/08/05/toward_end_solzhenitsyn_embraced_putins_russia/

[Psephos]

134. Solzhenitsyn went off his moorings toward the end - but his writings from the 60s are seminal

He developed a mild case of the same thing that afflicted Bobby Fischer in his decline as well...

S was on top of his game here, though:

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/alexandersolzhenitsynharvard.htm

Solzhenitsyn never became infatuated with the West...quite the contrary, he was critical and incisive about Western decadence and failures of soul.

Meanwhile, the larger point remains: Russia under Putin has devolved into a thugocracy.

[bemildred]

137. I read "August 1914", most of it anyway.

It is clear even back then that he is a Russian patriot and nationalist. His beef was incompetence and self-serving (not unlike how I feel about our own ruling elites) and not authoritarian government as such. His hero is a Russian General Staff Colonel who is enmeshed in and reports on the disaster in Tannenberg. He is tireless in his praise of the ordinary Russian soldier. It is worth remembering that the collapse of the Soviet Union was precipitated by Russian nationalists. I expect the same course to be followed here in this country, in due course. Eventually the American People will get tired of paying to keep the "Washington Consensus" afloat.

[kitty1]

100. So how is the U.S. going to confront a direct nuclear threat....

to an (official) ally from a country with known nuclear capabilities.
Will the U.S. call for sanctions against Russia, like they did with Iran.
Interesting to note the different approaches taken to both Iran and Russia in view of both situations.
Because Russia is still considered allied with the West and a part of the G8 and other UN bodies, it makes for a sticky situation all around.
Russia is able to throw it's weight around now that they have gained international power and influence.
They have it in for Poland and the U.S. now big time, and I think Poland in particular will pay a high price for allowing those missiles. Both economically and politically. Russia will see to that.
Do you think that Bush and Cheney will run to Poland's rescue too when the time comes?
No, I think Junior will be busy clearing brush in Crawford that week.

[Henny Penny]

103. "Russia is threatening one of our allies..."

or "One of our allies is threatening Russia..." ???

I know which way round I think it is.

[rockymountaindem]

122. Think again

The missile defense system is a purely defensive installation with a low number of ABMs which can neither attack Russia nor seriously dent its nuclear deterrent in the event of a large-scale nuclear exchange. If the Russians were really thinking about this, they would voice no opposition to the deal because it's basically a waste of money for the US from a military standpoint. Of course, it is a sign that the former Warsaw Pact states are moving further and further away from the Russian sphere, and the revisionists in the Kremlin don't like to see that. That is where these bellicose threats come from.

[spoony]

130. Well put, some here are taking "enemy of my enemy"

to a bizarre, and perhaps hazardous, extreme.

[fascisthunter]

101. This is Looking More and More Like the Beginning of a World War

and unfortunately we have very sick and stupid people in charge here and it seems everywhere else.

[Henny Penny]

104. War over resources is looking more likely and

unfortunately as time goes on the position of China and Russia strengthens while that of the US weakens.

Some people in positions of power may think its in the US interest to press for war quickly on the basis that they have a better chance of prevailing. So a lot of buttons are being pressed.... "what will Russia do about this..?" "How will the Chinese react if we do the other...?" etc.

China is being destabilised from within and any govts she's signed deals with in Africa etc are being destabilised.

Meanwhile Russia has only to look at all its neighbours to see them one by one enjoying a people power type revolutionary govt, or a US missile system being installed.

And what about India? Just use the old sectarian strife technique to stir up the shit with Pakistan and the Muslims there... that should keep them busy. Blow up a few pilgrims here, a sacred mosque there...

Very risky.

Britain is already lined up with the US and the rest of us in Europe are being corralled into the same position whether we like it or not.

[L. Coyote]

105. Russia: Poland risks attack because of US missiles

Source: AP


MOSCOW (AP) — Russia warned Poland on Friday that it is exposing itself to attack — even a nuclear one — by accepting a U.S. missile interceptor base on its soil, delivering Moscow's strongest language yet against the plan.

American and Polish officials stuck firmly by their deal, signed Thursday, for Poland to host a system that Washington says is meant to block missile attacks by rogue nations like Iran.

Moscow is convinced the base is aimed at Russia's missile force, however, and the deal comes as relations already are strained over the fighting between Russia and U.S.-allied Georgia over the separatist Georgian region of South Ossetia.

"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent," Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff of Russia's armed forces, was quoted by the Interfax news agency as saying.

Read more: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ie3N_5xk8Z20qcSJG0MilftDpsLwD92IV55O0

[burythehatchet]

106. I think the longest lasting legacy for jerk is that ha has slowly let the nookyoolur genie out

of its bottle and restarting the arms race

[geckosfeet]

107. And how would we feel if Russia put missles in,, oh,, say Cuba?

[L. Coyote]

108. And Mexico and Canada! That WAS part of the Georgia plan, of course!

[sandnsea]

110. These are missile interceptors

Not actual missiles, if I understand correctly. The sane response to Russie putting interceptors in Cuba is... yaaawwn. Which is also the sane response to the US putting them in Poland. BFD.

[geckosfeet]

115. Note- just a reference to Cubam missle crisis during Kennedy administration

[Bodhi BloodWave]

136. While i would normally agree with you

How would we know that most the missiles actually are missile interceptors, its not like the US would permit other countries access to the said base to actually ensure whats loaded up after all

And while Norway might become a target down the line, i still would back Russia's side in this

[daleo]

109. This is just common sense

If you make your country the site of a huge anti-missile base, you are bound to be making your country a target should a war come. The question as always, is does it give you more security or less.

[pampango]

112. Throughout history Poland has been a target should war come.

This probably does not need to be explained to them. They have more experience with this than we do. Their government needs to decide whether an anti-missile base gives them more security of less.

Small countries next to big powerful ones have three options to preserve their national integrity. They can essentially kowtow to their big neighbor and keep them happy by doing whatever they want (the "how high do you want me to jump" model).

They can try to make themselves strong enough, with a stronger military or international alliances, that the big country will think that conquering the small one (while it will always be militarily possible) isn't worth the effort (kind of the Switzerland option).

Or they can do neither and just hope that the big guy will respect international law and just accept a weak but possibly unfriendly country on its border.

[Seldona]

111. 100%?

"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent," Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff of Russia's armed forces, was quoted by the Interfax news agency as saying.

So either the US and Poland back down or their is a 100% of retaliation by Russia? Has the world gone freaking mad? Hey! Maybe we can go back to teaching our children to hide under their desks during a 'commie' nuclear attack.

I am seriously beginning to wonder whether we are not staring down WW3 here. Scary.

[susu369]

116. Any word from Ambassador Victor Ashe?

Maybe he's traveling to Crawford to have "talks" with his old buddy, George?

[KansDem]

127. Who's gonna blink this time, George?