Russia expands Georgia blitz, deploys ships

[WhiteTara]

Source: AP

TBILISI, Georgia - Russia and Georgia clashed on land and at sea Sunday despite a Georgian cease-fire offer and claim of withdrawal from the separatist province of South Ossetia, officials from both countries said.

Georgian officials said Russian planes bombed the Georgian capital's outskirts and Russian tanks moved from South Ossetia into Georgian territory, heading toward a strategic city before being turned back.

Russian jets hit communications facilities just west of Tbilisi early Monday and also targeted the Black Sea port of Poti, said Georgia's Interior Ministry spokesman, Shota Utiashvili. He said that Russian raids inflicted no casualties.

A Russian general said Georgian forces directed heavy fire at positions around Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, early Monday even though Georgia had claimed to be withdrawing from the shattered city and called for a cease-fire.

snip

Russia appears determined to subdue diminutive, U.S.-backed Georgia despite international condemnation. Russia ignored a wave of calls to observe Georgia's cease-fire, saying it must first be assured that Georgian troops had indeed pulled back from South Ossetia.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia

---

so much for the soul of Pooty Poot

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. Is this a war yet?

John McCain was right. There will be more wars.

[David Dunham]

2. Putin must want McCain to be elected. The new evil Russia will help scare voters

[dipsydoodle]

3. Laughable choice of words

Diminutive.....lol. Tomorrow it will be miniscule followed on Wednesday by microscopic and Thursday a mere dot on the map of the world.

[Captain Hilts]

4. Since WHEN has Russia given a damn about international opinion? They invaded Afghanistan...

the year before they hosted the Olympics!

[maddezmom]

5. Georgia renews South Ossetia bombardment

Source: ITN

Georgian forces have reportedly renewed fighting in the separatist South Ossetian region as Russia rejected the latest ceasefire proposal.


The Interfax news agency quoted a spokeswoman for the region's authorities, Irina Gagloyeva, as saying: "As of 3.30pm (12.30 BST), Georgian forces renewed intense shelling of towns in South Ossetia, using various forms of weaponry, including heavy weapons."

Earlier, a spokesman for the Kremlin said Russia had turned down the latest peace offer signed in the Georgian capital of Tbilisi by Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili.

He said: "According to information from peacekeepers in South Ossetia, Georgia continues to use military force and in this regard we cannot consider this document."

An earlier statement by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev stated the operation in the region was almost over. It said: "A significant part of the operation to force the Georgian authorities to make peace in South Ossetia has been concluded. Tskhinvali is under the control of a reinforced Russian peacekeeping contingent."



Read more: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20080811/twl-georgia-renews-south-ossetia-bombard-41f21e0.html

[plasticsundance]

6. Yeah ... Russia is really scared.

ARMED FORCES COMPARED
GEORGIA

Total personnel: 26,900
Main battle tanks (T-72): 82
Armoured personnel carriers: 139
Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven
Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95

RUSSIA
Total personnel: 641,000
Main battle tanks (various): 6,717
Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388
Combat aircraft (various): 1,206
Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550
Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments

[AlphaCentauri]

12. They been trained in Iraq

"The Georgian army today is a modern, well-mobilized force, armed with the state-of the-art weapons," Deputy Chief of the Russian General Staff General Anatoli Nagovitsin told the Interfax wire agency Sunday. That seemed to be a roundabout way of excusing the fact that in three days of fighting, the Russians may not have met all of their military objectives.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1831243,00.html?xid=feed-cnn-topics&iref=werecommend

[endarkenment]

7. Welcome to the new world odor.

George W Bush (war criminal, USA) et al, aka "The Cabal" greenlit the other world powers to invade and occupy nations they find inconvenient, to discard the Geneva Conventions, and to revert to behavior not seen since the 1930s.

Oh, and guess what, you triumphalist pin-heads? Russia is back, the focus of the conflict is central and western asia, and they have the strategic advantage over us in that region. Fucking morons.

[dipsydoodle]

8. Russia rejected the latest ceasefire proposal ?

According to live BBC TV news, minutes ago, they have yet to receive it. It was only signed this morning GMT and being carried to Moscow by the foreign ministers of France and Finland tonight - GMT.

edit - news was a live link to Suckerwilly's news conference in Georgia. He also said that despite signing the agreement he didn't seriously expect Russia to accept the terms and that Georgia had no intention of surrendering.

[AlphaCentauri]

11. looks like Georgia is playing mind games

[dipsydoodle]

9. Russia troops in new Georgia move

Russian troops have entered Georgia from the breakaway region of Abkhazia, reaching the town of Senaki, officials from both Russia and Georgia say.

The Russian defence ministry said its troops had moved in to stop Georgia from attacking Russian forces in South Ossetia, another breakaway region.

As the fighting continued in South Ossetia, foreign envoys were pressing for a ceasefire in the conflict.

Each side accuses the other of carrying out atrocities in the region.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7554507.stm

[Turbineguy]

10. Unfortunately the Georgians

had Condi to advise them. So Condi now has her own little war. Her "husband" has Iraq and she has Georgia. In the Bush Administraion you're just a nobody if you don't have your own war.

This is a Russian operation from soup to nuts. They raised and armed the "separatists". They laid a trap and the Georgians stepped into it.

[daleo]

13. But a "real" neo-con war needs U.S. troops

Let's hope Rice doesn't get her own "real" war.

[SpikeTss]

14. S.Ossetia: "Intense" Georgia shelling resumes

Source: Reuters

MOSCOW, Aug 11 (Reuters) - Officials in South Ossetia on Monday said Georgian forces had renewed shelling of their separatist region, Russia's Interfax news agency reported.

"As of 3.30 p.m. (1130 GMT), Georgian forces renewed intense shelling of towns in South Ossetia, using various forms of weaponry, including heavy weapons," Interfax quoted Irina Gagloyeva, a spokeswoman for the region's authorities, as saying.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/europeCrisis/idUSLB57281

[SpikeTss]

15. Russia rejects Georgia ceasefire as fighting goes on

And another update on the situation:

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia rejected the latest ceasefire proposal tabled by Georgia over the ongoing conflict between the two countries on Monday, saying that it would not even consider a ceasefire document at present.

"According to information from peacekeepers in South Ossetia, Georia continues to use military force and in this regard we cannot consider this document," a Kremlin spokesman told reporters.

[dipsydoodle]

16. Something extremely odd going on here

The Russians have yet to receive the agreement and conditions which will be delivered to Moscow tonight GMT by the Finnish and french foreign ministers who brokered the agreement which was signed this morning GMT.

[AllentownJake]

17. When your goal is to overthrow a government and install a puppet

You don't stop fighting.

[dipsydoodle]

18. I meant odd

from the point of view of the news which is being reported at lot of which is second hand and some of which seems to be suspect. Georgia has already got a puppet - a USA puppet.

[AllentownJake]

20. He was elected

There were international observers.

[dipsydoodle]

23. He was elected

in exactly the same way that GWB was "elected" - big fucking deal. At least GWB didn't also <apparently> use overt opposition oppression and a complete and total absense of cover of the opposition by the media.

[AllentownJake]

24. Ummm he was not elected like W

The Georgian Supreme Court never ruled him President after a close election.

We may not like some leaders that are democratically elected this guy had a majority of the votes legitimately and I'd rather the Georgians pick their President than the Russians install one. Call me :crazy:

[izquierdista]

29. Yes, by all means

Let them pick a President who will ethnically cleanse the Russians out of the country. :sarcasm:

[AllentownJake]

32. There is no evidence of ethnic clensing

[GrannyK]

22. Some insight from Ruppert

Russia will not pull out voluntarily. Georgia will be occupied, either totally or enough to make sure that it can pose no risk to Moscow -- ever again. Forget the BTC pipeline. And who is BTC's primary owner-operator? British Petroleum. The simultaneous bombing of BTC by Kurdish PKK (Marxist/Leninist) "separatists" in Turkey drives the point home. "We can take out this pipeline any time we want, from any place we want." Investors in Caspian oil are going to start drastically rethinking their decisions. Caspian production is certain to fall and I can now see a possibility that Russia might eventually get what it has wanted more than anything, a return of Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Kyrgyzstan into a Russian sphere of influence. If that happens, especially as Saudi Arabia is starting t ofade, Russia will be the energy king of the planet, especially in terms of natural gas.

More importantly, Russia may have just succeeded in breaking theAnglo-American alliance. Russia has just beaten the United States over the head with Peak Oil.

http://www.mikeruppert.blogspot.com/

[SpikeTss]

19. The sad thing is

people who suffer in this war ist not the war criminal Saakashvili or the power hungry Putin. It's people like you and me in South Ossetia and people like you and me in Georgia who suffer under these crimes conducted by their leaders. If we had a working United Nations, people like Saakashvili and many others would stand before court and wouldn't have the means to continue their slaughtering of civilians.

It's sad, but unfortunately reality looks quite different.

[AllentownJake]

21. Love how the term war criminal is being lobbed about here freely

Before there is any evidence of war crimes. Just Russians saying there were war crimes.

[SpikeTss]

25. Attacking civilians in several Ossetian cities certainly counts as a war crime

And that's what the Georgian military is doing since last Friday.
It's (well, not really) amazing, that our so-called independent media don't report events unbiased, but put an anti-russian tone to it.

You have to search to find some positive exceptions, like this one here:

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/letters/the-truth-is-its-not-russia-that-is-the-aggressor-20080811-3tle.html

WHAT are the undeniable facts of the conflict that started on the day of the Olympic Games opening? Georgia, using the Games as cover, made a dash for cash, barely four hours after its President had publicly declared that he had no intention of using force.

In an area with UN-sanctioned peacekeepers and no overt conflict in progress, Georgian troops started shelling the peaceful city of Tskhinvali, using artillery and its air force. The people being killed and driven out of their homes are claimed by Georgia but are of a different nationality. Refugees are fleeing towards the Russian border — they know which way safety lies, even if the world hears a different story.

In the first hours of fighting, 10 Russian peacekeepers were killed. These are men who were performing their duty, supported by the United Nations. The Georgian military viewed them as valid targets, shelling their barracks.

[AllentownJake]

26. People are acting like this is Bosnia all over again

It isn't and after the Russians own crackdown of seperatist regions I find it odd they are picking on Georgia for trying to get an area known for bombing, smuggling, and kidnapping back under control.

By the way they have been shooting at each other at the border since August 1st.

[SpikeTss]

28. It's not with tens of thousands South Ossetians fleeing from Georgian attacks?

Interesting. Because they are the unpeople, who are of no use for our interests?

[AllentownJake]

31. How bout all the Georgians fleeing their territory now in Gori and westward

Is that not ethnic clensing as well?
Russia said it was only interested in S. Ottessia.

[Odin2005]

33. RUSSIA claims there were war crimes.

Just like Hitler claimed Poland attacked first...

[The Stranger]

27. Not good. Not good.

[savistocate]

30. Spike has the handle on this conflict--

how militay action began. Initiated by Georgia. Even CNN first report described it so. Quickly emphasis slant took over. Notable clear adjustment.
Timing for the decision of Georgia authority would surely have been in consultation with US/Cheney/Bush. Oct Surprise in Aug...groundwork.
Now McBush is putting himself forward as presumptuous Pres. Media -now- giving Mcsame big coverage to impress this into the public mind.

[jayfish]

34. Russians advance in west Georgia

Source: BBC

Russian troops have entered Georgia from the breakaway region of Abkhazia, as the conflict between the two neighbours appears to be broadening.
Moscow said its troops had reached the town of Senaki to stop Georgia from attacking Russian forces in South Ossetia, another breakaway region.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7554507.stm

---

EDIT FOR UPDATED HEADLINE AND STORY CONTENT

[Renew Deal]

35. I think the Russians want Georgia back.

And this is their opportunity to take it.

[daleo]

38. I don't think they want to occupy Georgia

Occupation seems counterproductive, based on the recent experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan. But things can take on a momentum of their own, I suppose. That's why it's always bad to unleash the dogs of war.

[Renew Deal]

40. Is it really an occupation?

I think annex is a better term.

[daleo]

43. In practice, they would be the same

As far as the ensuing insurgency is concerned. I think the Russians would get bogged down, like the U.S. in Iraq or the Soviets in Afghanistan regardless of the formal legalities (or illegalities) of the situation go.

[Renew Deal]

45. The politics are completely different

This was Russia's territory 18 years ago. There are two break away regions that are loyal to them. I don't know what the Russians want, but if they want those provinces, I'd doubt the locals would cause too much of a fuss. Not so sure about the rest of Georgia, but they are at a huge disadvantage.

[daleo]

46. Sorry, I thought you meant Georgia as a whole

As far as the breakaway provinces go, the endgame may be annexation by Russia based on a referendum. I gather that the majority of the local population would prefer that to being part of Georgia. But there would be a substantial Georgian minority who wouldn't like it.

That's the difficult issue - a majority population at one level of analysis becomes and minority at another, so the underlying problems go on and on. This part of the world has been settled for a long time (tens of thousands of years, I think), so these problems are pretty intractable.

[dipsydoodle]

36. new Georgia move

sounds like a dance step. Is it the same as "Doin' the Uptown Low Down" :shrug:

[jayfish]

37. Well Our Media Machine Can Take Pride In The Fact That It's...

not the only one that pens incoherent headlines.
Jay

[JCMach1]

39. They want the breakaway areas and a new regime in Tblisi

[Doctor Cynic]

41. The Russians are coming! The Russians are coming!

[Phoonzang]

42. I thought the Russians would stop.

If they continue to advance deeper into Georgia, and want to insitute "regime change", they're going to have to be stopped. At least that's what certain countries not to be named are going to be thinking.

[FirstLight]

44. oh man, oh crap...not good

The chimp is drunk, cheny probably has a hard-on and the cease fire was rejected...

:scared: this is SO not good


what shall we do? find a bomb shelter?

[enuegii]

47. It's basically over oil...

Although Georgia doesn't have a great deal of oil reserves itself, the Baku-T'bilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline, which passes through Georgia from the Caspian Sea into Turkey, was recently finished. The Russians, of course, wanted this to be connected to their pipeline network, rather than being available directly to the West.

Georgia misjudged, apparently, and overreached in dealing with separatists in South Ossetia, which gave Russia an excuse to intervene on the side of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, both of which wish to break away from Georgian rule, as Georgia itself broke away from Russia about 18 years ago. So Russia stands to regain control of Georgia and the new pipeline.

I guess...

[magellan]

49. This has been my thinking too

At least it seems the most obvious premise for what happened and why. Guess we'll have to wait and see how far Russia takes it, then we'll have our answer.

Welcome to DU. :hi:

[DeltaLitProf]

128. The Caspian Sea reserves

. . . were a big bust. Only 1 percent of the world's demand for oil is being supplied by that pipeline. But Russia might be acting so as to be in a stronger position if the US attacks Iran.

[maddezmom]

48. Russian troops leave Senaki town-ministry 11 Aug 2008 19:07:46 GMT

Russian troops leave Senaki town-ministry 11 Aug 2008 19:07:46 GMT
Source: Reuters
MOSCOW, Aug 11 (Reuters) - Russian troops pulled out of the Georgian town of Senaki on Monday after "eliminating" a threat to shell South Ossetia, Interfax news agency reported on Monday, quoting a Russian Defence Ministry statement

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LB209763.htm

[maddezmom]

50. Russian forces occupy Georgian city of Gori: Tbilisi (or maybe not, edited with a new link)

Source: AFP

Russian forces occupied the city of Gori and Georgian forces are fortifying positions near Tbilisi to defend the capital, Georgia's National Security Council secretary told AFP Monday. — AFP

Read more: http://www.todayonline.com/articles/270205.asp

---

Georgia official says Russia captured Georgia town

TBILISI, Aug 11 (Reuters) - A Georgian official said on Monday that Russian forces had captured the Georgian town of Gori, 60 kilometres from the capital Tbilisi, but a Reuters witness saw no troops in the empty town.

"They have captured the city of Gori," the secretary of Georgia's security council, Kakha Lomaia told Reuters by telephone.

more: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LB161645.htm

Russia denies troops have taken Georgian town
11 Aug 2008 16:36:54 GMT
Source: Reuters
MOSCOW, Aug 11 (Reuters) - Russia's Defence Ministry on Monday denied a Georgian claim that Russian troops had occupied the Georgian town of Gori, which lies close to South Ossetia.

"There are no Russian troops in Gori," a ministry spokesman

more: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LB617935.htm

[jaxx]

51. Where are our troops stationed?

[chatnoir]

52. In the Tbilisi area according to the ArmyTimes

Russian military forces on Aug. 8 invaded the former Soviet republic of Georgia, whose troops receive training from U.S. forces and have been a steadfast ally in the war in Iraq.

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said that at the time of the attack, some 130 U.S. troops and contractors were in Georgia to prepare the Georgian forces for their next deployment to Iraq. All were accounted for, none had been injured, and there were no plans to pull them out of the country, Whitman said.

He said the trainers were in the area of the Georgian capital, Tblisi, but he would not say exactly where. The capital is well away from the fighting between Georgian and Russian troops.

More: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/08/military_georgia_080808w/

[Captain Hilts]

53. Gori: Stalin's hometown! It's old home week...nt

[AllentownJake]

54. Can we get over the Putin is just trying to protect and stand up for Human Rights nonsense

Seriously..Putin is a bad and just because he stands up to our bad President doesn't make him good.

[The Traveler]

55. One thug pushing another thug

Lot of innocent bystanders burned up in the process. Bush saw into Putin's soul and saw him good. That should be enough to tell you what sort of asshole Putin really is. Putin and Bush really are of a feather ...

[fujiyama]

129. Yeah, I remember reading that and laughing

Sounded like propaganda. Putin is an autocratic thug. He is no friend of democracy or human rights. And Russia's reaction has been indefensible and inexcusable.

But that said, McCain is a nut and sounds like he wants to provoke him into fighting a war. Let's hope McCain doesn't get that chance.

[dipsydoodle]

56. Best not forget the old maxim

First casualty of war is truth. There are so many conflicting reports now that I've gone over to just believing my own eyes on genuinly live TV footage from the "front". We have the advantage of that in the UK - unlikely to be so in the USA.

[maddezmom]

57. no fooling here is another report: Russian troops invade Georgia and take the city of Gori

Russian troops invade Georgia and take the city of GoriTony Halpin in Gori, and Kevin O'Flynn in Moscow
Russian forces overran the strategic Georgian city of Gori today as troops prepared to defend the capital Tbilisi from what one official called a "total onslaught".

Georgian soldiers fled Gori, 17 miles from the border with rebel South Ossetia, in panic and disarray, clinging to the sides of cars and vehicles as they sped out of town. A Georgian armoured personnel carrier was in flames on the street, a victim of the sudden rout.

Alexander Lomaia, secretary of the Georgian security council, said that the Georgian army had been told instead to concentrate its efforts on holding Mtskheta, 15 miles from the capital.

"Russian forces are occupying Gori. Georgian armed forces received an order to leave Gori and to fortify positions near Mtskheta to defend the capital. This is a total onslaught," Mr Lomaia said.

more;http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4507980.ece


~snip~

The invasions of Gori and the towns of Senaki, Zugdidi and Kurga came despite a top Russian general's claim earlier Monday that Russia had no plans to enter Georgian territory. By taking Gori, which sits on Georgia's only east-west highway, Russia has the potential to effectively cut the country in half.

Security Council head Alexander Lomaia said Monday that it was not immediately clear if Russian forces would try to advance on Tbilisi.

The two-front battlefield was a major escalation in the conflict that blew up late Thursday after a Georgian offensive to regain control of South Ossetia. Even as Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili signed a cease-fire pledge with EU mediators on Monday, Russia flexed its military muscle and appeared determined to subdue the small U.S. ally that has been pressing for NATO membership.

On Monday afternoon, Russian troops invaded Georgia from the western separatist province of Abkhazia while most Georgian forces were in the central region around South Ossetia.

more:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia;_ylt=AtZ4T8l7uqWG6DK6YxWYCqSs0NUE

[dipsydoodle]

58. Ta

On live news the Georgians say that the Russians have taken Gori and the Russians are saying they haven't. Its a matter of whose propaganda you believe I guess.

Here's an uptodate Reuters report :
Source: Reuters
TBILISI, Aug 11 (Reuters) - A Georgian official said on Monday that Russian forces had captured the Georgian town of Gori, 60 kilometres from the capital Tbilisi, but a Reuters witness saw no troops in the empty town.

"They have captured the city of Gori," the secretary of Georgia's security council, Kakha Lomaia told Reuters by telephone.

A Reuters reporter in Gori said: "We are right now driving through the town and I see no trace of troops or military

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LB161645.htm

repeat : A Reuters reporter in Gori said: "We are right now driving through the town and I see no trace of troops or military.

Sounds like Georgian propaganda in this case .

[maddezmom]

59. CNN's Mathew Chance was in Gori earlier today and is back in Tblisi

He is reporting that he has no confirmation that Russian troops are actually in Gori but military action outside the city is happenibng.

[dipsydoodle]

60. I must say I do like your edit .

................or maybe not! :rofl: :hi:

[magellan]

65. There was an imminent attack warning while Saakashvili was in Gori

...with the French Foreign Minister. But all that could be seen was Georgian helicopters attacking positions on the hills outside Gori. I saw the footage on Euronews and the report ended by saying that no evidence of Russian forces was found.

[frankieT]

61. Georgian officials, TIMES and FOX NEWS

that's the only sources telling of russians controlling Gori. There are loads of western journalists in Gori, this information is ridiculous.

[rayofreason]

62. Georgian troops fall back to defend Tbilisi

http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5688&Itemid=65

URGENT: Russian Ground Forces Invade Georgia, Georgian Army Retreats to Defend Capital
Government of Georgia

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Monday, August 11 • 19:50 Tbilisi, Georgia

URGENT: Russian Ground Forces Invade Georgia, Georgian Army Retreats to Defend Capital; Government Appeals for Urgent International Intervention

At this hour, the invading army of the Russian Federation has entered Georgian territory outside the conflict zones of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The Georgian army is retreating to defend the capital. The Government is urgently seeking international intervention to prevent the fall of Georgia and the further loss of life.

[frankieT]

63. oh please this propaganda is sickening

even REUTERS keep this misleading title http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSLB16164520080811 "Russians seize town in Georgia: Georgian official" when they recognize inside the same article that 2 of their OWN journalists in GORI saw no russians there... THIS IS A JOKE.

[rayofreason]

67. Here is a Russian report.

From "Echo of Moscow"

http://www.echo.msk.ru/news/533129-echo.html

Here is the headline

11.08.2008 01:21 : Грузинский город Гори атакован российской артиллерией и авиацией.

For those who don't speak russian - The Georgian city of Gori has been attacked by Russian artillery and aircraft.

Now, they don't say that they have taken Gori, but they have got to play the news carefully so that people like you will continue to dismiss reports of the Russian invasion until T-92 tanks are rolling down Rustaveli Avenue in Tbilisi.

[chatnoir]

74. Or is Ekho Moskvy propaganda too?

;)

[suffragette]

64. France24 has a reporter in Gori

http://www.france24.com/en/20080811-saakashvili-south-ossetia-impassioned-plea-georgia-russia-kouchner&navi=MONDE
Near the bottom of the artcicle

Abkhazia turning into new war theatre

Three days into the fighting, the facts on the ground however have been murky with each side issuing claims and counterclaims of troop and civilian casualties as well as ongoing military operations.

The conflict appeared to be spreading to Abkhazia, another Russian-backed province that broke away from Georgia in the 1990s.

Georgian officials accuse Russia of entering Georgian territory through Abkhazia amid reports that Russia had taken Gori, a city that has turned into a launch pad for Georgian military operations in South Ossetia. The reports, however, were not verified.

Reporting from Gori earlier Monday, FRANCE 24’s Tim Grucza said Russian bombings had brought the city to a standstill. “For the moment is still locked down but the Russian bombardment, which had aimed for military installations, also hit a lot of civilian buildings,” said Grucza. “Today, many residents are returning home to find their apartments destroyed and burned.”

At least they are pointing out that the reports aren't verified, then adding what they have a reporter on the ground can verify.

[zanne]

66. Is anybody else feeling a little "nervous" about this?

What are the chances we won't be drawn into it?

[Karenina]

68. Your "we" set it up.

Europe has designated "you" as a combatant in the most diplomatic terms possible.

[Andre II]

69. Reuters snap on Georgia withdrawn

Source: Reuters

The news alert "Russian troops battling Georgian forces in Georgian town of Gori- Reuters witness" is wrong and is withdrawn. The witness was mistaken.

There will be no substitute story.

Read more: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LB156487.htm

---

I don't get it.
Maybe I'm too naive but can you be "wrong" stating that there is a battle in a city or not?

[bemildred]

70. People freak out. Even reporters.

Presumably other evidence came along ...

[dipsydoodle]

73. Yes - the other evidence which just happened along

was that CNN also had a reporter on the ground who confirmed there no Russian troops. The whole issue was a complete Georgian propaganda fabrication aka lie.

[Robbien]

71. There was a battle outside the city of Gori

Russian forces moved briefly into the west Georgian city of Senaki to prevent Georgian troops from regrouping for attacks on the breakaway region of South Ossetia -- the cause of the worsening conflcit -- the Russian defence ministry was quoted by domestic news agencies as saying.

The Russian troops later withdrew from Senaki, Russian and Georgian officials said, with Tbilisi saying its military base there has been destroyed.

"Russian forces have destroyed Senaki military base and have left it," a spokesman for the Georgian interior ministry, Shota Utiashvili, told AFP.

Georgia initially claimed Russian soldiers had occupied Gori, the main town close to Moscow-backed South Ossetia, but this was denied by Russia's defence ministry, though most of Gori's inhabitants had fled leaving it a ghost town.

But the secretary of Georgia's security council, Alexander Lomaia, told AFP later: "The Russians are staying near Gori. They did not enter the city itself."

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gUUsgEPwTubPAlJ3ghTGWns_7hvw

[Andre II]

76. Why so many contradicting information

I mean don't we have at least objective satelitte images?
I've rarely seen a conflict which so contradicting information and still so little double check on the sources.

[Robbien]

112. Because there are so few reporters these days

Notice that almost all the reports are coming from state officials of Georgia, Russia and the US. Or the reports are from telephone interviews of Georgian citizens.

This new M$M of ours sucks.

[muriel_volestrangler]

117. I'd be highly surprised if any news organisation has real-time satellite images

those things cost a lot of money to put up. It tends to be governments who have the kind of satellites that could monitor moving vehicles etc.

I'd say that confused reports from conflict regions are normal, and have been for hundreds of years.

[Journeyman]

72. It could be, the reporter saw tanks and such and assumed they were Russian. . .

further investigation then proved it was Georgian military. Mistakes happen, especially in wartime, when not everyone is issued a program and the players don't always wear clearly labeled name tags.

[Andre II]

75. The article does clearly talk about an ongoing battle

How can you witness a battle that doesn't take place?

[Dead_Parrot]

120. You make it up

The BBC have a reporter in Gori, who did a live report about 5 minutes ago.

No Russians, No fighting (at least yet).

The only tanks in the town were Georgian, heading back to T'bilisi.

[amandabeech]

122. Perhaps they heard it .

My understanding is that the Georgians don't have enough ammo to waste it on a "wag the dog" episode.

[iamthebandfanman]

77. Russia opens 2nd front in Georgia, seizing towns

Source: AP

Russia opens 2nd front in Georgia, seizing towns

By DAVID NOWAK
Associated Press Writer
GORI, Georgia (AP) -- Russian armored vehicles rolled deep into western Georgia on Monday, quickly seizing several towns and a military base and slicing open a damaging second front in Russia's battle with Georgia. Other Russian forces captured the key central city of Gori.

Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/G/GEORGIA_SOUTH_OSSETIA?SITE=CASRP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

---

Just a reminder, Joseph Stalin was born in Gori.

[seemslikeadream]

78. I heard this war would be over by now

What's up with that?





33 mins ago: Georgia's President Mikheil Saakashvili (C with white sleeves) is bundled away by bodyguards during a bombing raid in Gori in this video grab, August 11, 2008. Saakashvili had been meeting in Gori with visiting French Foreign Minister Bernard Koucher, whose country holds the rotating presidency in the European Union, during a mission to try to end hostilities between Georgia and Russia over control of two Georgian breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia

[AuntPatsy]

81. I have heard today on the msm which I felt compelled to watch once again

from out nations so called leaders what amounts to threats against Russia along with taped interviews of Putin issuing threats toward us of his own....I have a feeling this skirmish was brought on by someone in our administration or at least instigated.....

I have found it odd that all the threats toward Iran have been fairly quiet for a while now, now we know that Russia stood behind Iran if we were to attack them, so perhaps we are attempting to take out this so called interference of our administrations desire to attack Iran?

did someone see this newest conflict as a way to perhaps get American citizens behind this administrations desire to continue its desire for war and world wide domination by scaring them with an age old enemy Russia?

[seemslikeadream]

84. Mcgrumpy needs a war he can relate to

[AuntPatsy]

88. I'm not sure it's that simple....people seemed to no longer fear a mideast

threat like they did early on so those in the whitehouse who have no desire to stop it's desire to war with the mideast had to find a new and different threat that just might get the backing they need to further their take over of the middle east's oil cartel.....

It seems to me that they still want their first target, Iran, I have no doubt that they have not given up that desire, I have a sinking feeling that this whole warring inside Geogia's borders are in some way our fault.....

The american people once again are being forced to fear a what will they do to us scenerio because fearing Iran was not working...its pretty obvous from what I have seen coming from the msm this am.

[Delphinus]

89. Scary Russia -

yeah, that one was a huge surprise for me.

But I agree with the first poster - this morning when I checked the headlines on DU, I would have sworn I saw a ceasefire had been agreed to and that Georgia was backing down.

[AuntPatsy]

90. I don't think such will be allowed to occur even if both sides wanted it....

I really don't trust what is going on right now...we have not heard from slimy cheney for quite some time and now, all of a sudden he is out making comments and or threats, why now? Why after pretty much hiding for far too long and why is idiot in chief at the olympics where he is clearly on a binge and doing not much else?

[maddezmom]

94. lastest link: Russia Rejects EU-Backed Peace Proposal as Fighting Continues

Russia Rejects EU-Backed Peace Proposal as Fighting Continues
Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: The EU wants an immediate ceasefire
Russia rejected Monday an EU proposal to end the conflict with Georgia over South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Georgia continues to use military force, making a deal impossible, a Kremlin spokesman told reporters.

Russia said it could not consider a ceasefire deal with Georgia at present.



"According to information from peacekeepers in South Ossetia, Georgia continues to use military force and in this regard we cannot consider this document," a Kremlin spokesman told reporters on Monday, Aug. 11.



The rebuff came less than an hour after Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili signed a European Union-backed peace proposal to be presented to Russia, according to the news agency AFP.



The EU has put forth the peace proposal in an attempt to end the conflict with Russia, French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner told French radio RTL from Tbilisi.

more: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3552150,00.html

[Delphinus]

99. Thanks for the update.

And, crap. :(

[Strelnikov_]

98. Russia (Putinist's) would like nothing better than for us to attack Iran

They are playing both sides in that crises. If the gulf petroleum facilities are taken partially off line, they will make a fortune on $300+/bbl oil. A side benefit would be having their rival, the US, bogged down in a conflict that will make Iraq and the USSR's adventure in Afghanistan look like a cakewalk.

Regarding Georgia, IMHO, to date, they are doing what they have stated, repelling Georgian forces from the disputed regions after Georgia launched a brutal attack on civilians and setting the table for final resolution of these regions. The propaganda is flowing both ways.

We will know in the next week if the Putinist's are as stupid as the neocons (attempting to occupy greater Georgia). I don't think they are, but who knows, the lure of 'easy' victory can lead to disastrous decisions.

And, yes, I think Saakashvili's idiotic attack was probably caused by his exposure to the neocons.

[The Croquist]

103. Has it occurred to you that this might not be the US's fault?

Instead maybe it's the fault of THE COUNTRY THAT INVADED ANOTHER COUNTRY AND IS TRYING TO DESTROY IT???????????????????????

For years we (DU posters) have bitched about how Putin is destroying democracy in Russia, is a threat to world peace, can't be trusted and how stupid Bush was to trust him. Now all of a sudden Russia / Putin is the good guy rescuing South Ossetia from the clutches of the mighty Georgian army.

In unrelated news:

Georgia claims Russians have cut country in half
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D92G8QE81&show_article=1

On Monday afternoon, Russian troops invaded Georgia from the western separatist province of Abkhazia while most Georgian forces were busy with fighting in the central region around South Ossetia.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23530546-details/Defiant+Putin+accuses+US+of+'helping+Georgia'+as+fighting+escalates+amid+fears+of+ground+invasion/article.do

Earlier in the day, Russian premier Vladimir Putin raised the stakes over the conflict by lashing out at the U.S. as the fighting continued to escalate in the region.

The Russian prime minister rejected calls from Georgia for a ceasefire and declared that his country would pursue its mission to its 'logical conclusion'.

A day after a face-to-face meeting with President George W. Bush in Beijing who expressed 'grave concern', Mr Putin accused the U.S. of siding with Georgia by ferrying Georgian troops from Iraq to the battle zone.

'It is a shame that some of our partners are not helping us but, essentially, are hindering us,' said Mr Putin. 'The very scale of this cynicism is astonishing.'

Russian Defense ministry spokeswoman Nana Intskerveli confirmed tanks had seized a Georgian military base in the western town of Senaki.

Russia Warns Baltics, Poland To Pay For Georgia Stance-Report
http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/NewsStory.aspx?cpath=20080811%5cACQDJON200808110842DOWJONESDJONLINE000221.htm&&mypage=newsheadlines&title=Russia%20Warns%20Baltics,%20Poland%20To%20Pay%20For%20Georgia%20Stance-Report

"One must not hurry on such serious issues, as serious mistakes can be made that have to be paid for a long time afterwords," Alexander Veshnyakov was quoted as saying by BNS.

Russia has either seized or attacked the cities of Zugdidi, Senaki, Zugdidi, Kurga, Gori. None of these places are inside what was last week "disputed" territory. They have also warned other neighboring countries to not interfere.

I expect that by next week those capered cities still won't be inside disputed territory. They will no longer be considered part of Georgia.

Meanwhile people will still be posting here that this is all the US's fault.

[AuntPatsy]

108. Considering what has come out of the mouth of our so called leaders

the past couple of days, NO, I don't believe the Us innocent of aiding and abetting in this crime...

[mvd]

111. We..

are certainly making things worse by nosing in. Cheney, et al. salivate over more wars. Georgia is only our ally because of Iraq - an illegal war to begin with.

And McCain's tone was threatening. That guy might be even more trouble than Bush in regards to foreign policy.

[AuntPatsy]

114. His tone, words and demeanor when speaking of the Georgia conflict should

be a red flag for anyone watching him in realizing the man is gaga over the thought of ordering another round of war games, what bothers me more is that too many of the media voice boxes are attempting to have its viewers agree that someone who acts as if he can be violent and seemingly enjoys it would make for good presidential leadership....its pretty heartbreaking to realize that the more vicious one sounds the better a leader they would make....


Honestly, some of those media talking heads today seem pretty excited about threatening russia over the actions they have taken to date....good way to end violence I guess, threaten some of the same....

It seems the media and such have not learned any valuable lessons with the high death toll from the invasion of Iraq ....

[mvd]

115. Well said!

These are very scary times. If we don't get the common sense candidate, Obama, in office, I'm afraid WWIII won't be far away.

[The Croquist]

126. McCain's tone is threatening?

Have you noticed that the Russian's aren't bothering with tone but are actually killing people?

[mvd]

127. Nothing will be helped by us using a threatening tone

Obama's statement was just right IMO. He denounced the escalation by Russia today while opening up the possibilities of deplomacy. Russia's regime is not good, but anyone following the Bush/Cheney lead like Georgia is can't be so good either. It's a case where there aren't many good guys in the conflicts around the world. The U.S. has never been perfect, but not until Reagan and the Bushes have we become just one of the problems.

[rockymountaindem]

118. No, never

Whatever goes wrong in the world can be directly attributed to the US and/or Israel and nobody else because we are omnipotent :sarcasm:

[amandabeech]

123. I think that the Russians, the Georgians, the Abkhasians and the Ossetians

have enough enmity to start things all by themselves if give the right chance.

Sure, we have trainers there and have supplied some materiel, but we do that with many friendly countries.

Frankly, I think that the * administration was taken by surprise here. * and Condi were both out of town on vacation when this started, and seem to have been stumbling around. Weren't there lots of missing officials when Katrina slammed into New Orleans? DC can be a ghost town in August.

[magellan]

95. I saw this on EuroNews earlier

They did indeed get an imminent attack warning and bundled Saakashvili into a waiting car. It was pandemonium with all the reporters and security around. Then Georgian helicopters appeared and were said to be attacking enemy positions just on the outskirts of Gori, and they showed footage of this, but the reporter went on to say that afterwards there was no evidence of Russian troops or an attack, other than the one carried out by Georgian choppers.

I still don't know what to make of this, but it made me wonder if this "attack" was staged for the French Foreign Minister to help press public opinion against Russia.

[kestrel91316]

79. So, is Bush eating cake today? Or playing guitar? Or perhaps reading to children??

[mtnester]

86. No, he is watching sporting events

same same

[ben_meyers]

80. Russia denies troops have taken Georgian town

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia's Defence Ministry on Monday denied a Georgian claim that Russian troops had occupied the Georgian town of Gori, which lies close to South Ossetia.

"There are no Russian troops in Gori," a ministry spokesman said.

Georgian officials had earlier said that Russian troops had captured the town of Gori which is 60 km from Georgia's capital, Tbilisi.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080811/ts_nm/georgia_ossetia_capture_dc_2

I wonder if anyone really knows whats happening? There doesn't seem to be much in the way of media on the ground and all we get are statements issued by both sides.

Meanwhile, the worlds markets don't seem concerned and the price of oil is still dropping.

[iamthebandfanman]

82. well if the russians say so

it must be true.


lol

i guess you believe everything homeland security says, or the WH, or the pentagon , etc ...

[Dead_Parrot]

124. How about the BBC, France24 and 2 Reuters reporters...

...sitting around in Gori playing Spot the Russian?

I'll agree it's hard to get objective information, and anything coming from Moscow or T'bilisi should be taken with a grain of salt. But based on the independent sources who are now there, The Russian reports seem to be pretty close to the truth.

Strange days...

[Ghost Dog]

83. There's a slightly less partisan version of this from AFP here:

...Russia and Georgia traded accusations that each was launching attacks, while aid agencies warned of a mounting humanitarian crisis, heightening urgency to international efforts to secure a halt to the fighting.

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner and Finland's Alexander Stubb were to put a peace plan to Russian leaders on Tuesday having persuaded Georgia's President Mikheil Saakashvili to sign up for the European Union plan, a senior Georgian official told AFP.

But diplomatic tensions between Russia and the United States held up efforts to pass a UN Security Council call for an end to the fighting over the breakaway region of South Ossetia

...

The EU plan he signed up to calls for a ceasefire, medical help for victims, controlled withdrawals of troops on both sides and eventual political talks.

On Tuesday, Kouchner and Stubb will meet Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, said Stubb, current chairman of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

French President Nicolas Sarkozy will go to Georgia on Tuesday, Saakashvili told journalists. Sarkozy is also due in Moscow to try to hammer out a ceasefire, Kouchner said.

Russian Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov Monday dismissed the EU efforts.

"It's not a ceasefire agreement," Ivanov told CNN television. A "ceasefire agreement is signed by two sides when they meet," he said, adding first "we need a written agreement between Georgia on one side, South Ossetia and Abkhazia .. that they will never use force in the future."

/... http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/newsmlmmd.ec893445a360a2137eb7c99ba8c5c453.4e1.html

[Ghost Dog]

87. And the Russia Today site puts it like this:

Peacekeepers seize army base inside Georgia

Russian peacekeeping forces have taken control of Georgia’s largest airbase, about 40km from the border with Abkhazia. The Russian Defence Ministry said the troops were taking ‘preventative action’ at the base in the town of Senaki. The Georgian army is pulling in troops to Tbilisi to protect the capital from the advancing Russian forces.

Peacekeepers and other Russian land units have launched their first operation inside Georgian territory proper since Tbilisi began its offensive against the breakaway republic of South Ossetia last week.

A spokesman for the Defence Ministry confirmed the incursion, which was first reported by Georgia’s Internal Ministry.

“Russian peacekeepers and military units attached to them are taking action to prevent Georgia from shelling South Ossetia and Russian peacekeepers,” he said.

Another objective of the operation is to prevent ‘a build-up of additional volunteers and reservists’ mobilized to continue military operations the breakaway republics.

Earlier reports indicated that Abkhazian troops supported by Russian fighter planes had taken control of a village in Georgia’s Zugdidi region. But Abkhazian sources have denied the reports.

Meanwhile, the Georgian Foreign ministry announced that the Georgian town of Gori has been also captured by Russian troops.

The sources in the Russia’s Defence ministry don’t confirm this information.

/... http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28829

Information/Propaganda getting increasingly foggy, perhaps on all sides, of course...

[annabanana]

85. US Troops have been over there since Mid July

There was a thread on this earlier. . but in case you missed it:


from The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 07/14/08

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metro/stories/2008/07/13/georgia_national_guard_.html

Troops from Atlanta will train in Republic of Georgia

A large contingent of Georgia Army National Guard soldiers flew to the Republic of Georgia on Sunday for joint military exercises at a time when tension is brewing in the region.

The soldiers, mostly from the metro area, will be part of "Immediate Response 2008," which will amount to the largest U.S. footprint on the crossroads of Asia and Europe since the Cold War began.

The three-week operation also provides practical training for the 48th Infantry Brigade's 1st Battalion, 121st Infantry Regiment just months before a pending deployment to Afghanistan.

(more at link)

[WriteDown]

91. Didn't they leave...

about a week before the fighting started?

[mike3121]

92. I'm puzzled?

Some of my liberal friend, a few are "real liberal," stated that the proper take on this whole Russia-Georgia conflict is to support Russia. They are against the US, are allied with China, and support any socialist states. With Russian armor now marching on the capital of Georgia it looks like Russia will re-acquire the fallen away republic. Next would be Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. Will we, as liberals, still support Russia then?

[doublethink]

96. 2-14 Calvary Regiment out of Hawaii !! Lightning ...

A good friend of mine is in that unit deployed in Iraq. Are you deployed currently? This conflict up in Georgia is about that BTC pipeline. I don't support either side in this conflict, it's stupid for either side to invade sovereign lands for oil, natural gas etc... etc.. in the guise of 'national security', 'democracy' or whatever excuse they want to use.

Anyway the domino effect of Russia going after those other Countries won't happen before things really get out of hand. Here's a couple of articles to check out ....

http://www.opednews.com/articles/WHAT-DO-WE-KNOW-ABOUT-GEOR-by-Bruce-K-Gagnon-080811-400.html

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/888521/just-what-can-the-west-do.thtml

Peace.

[mike3121]

101. 25th ID

No, one war was enough for me. Viet Nam vet, RVN Nov 67 - Feb 68 (Tet 68). 11D (now 19D) Armor Recon. Tay Ninh. Shipped back to states on a stretcher.

[jayfish]

102. Sound Like Bullshit To Me.

The key words,"They are against the US, are allied with China, and support any socialist states". Maybe your confused between the words liberal and anti-American.

Jay

[Odin2005]

104. Those "liberal friends" don't sound like Liberals, they sound like Stalinist-Maoist morans.

Real Liberals don't suck up to totalitarian regimes.

[mike3121]

105. To Odin2005

Actually that's the category I put them in. Yes, they are real, just off the deep end types. The majority of people I know are a bit more balanced.

[daleo]

113. Who do your conservative friends support? n/t

[ohio2007]

119. Turkey has a stake in this. as the breakaway puppets are claiming Turkey is helping Georgia

And the unconfirmed accusations are flying;

Ankara caught in the hopes for a ceasefire

snip
The war in South Ossetia is forcing Turkey to find the right balance between Georgia, Russia and ethnic communities that are urging Turkey to position itself against its northeastern neighbor.

snip

“This war is about a big sharing deal that began with the independence of Kosovo. Kosovo, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, they are all pieces that will slowly fall into place,” he said, stressing that Russia would not let go of South Ossetia after losing Kosovo. He also pointed out that Georgia's fate was already sealed in the latest NATO summit in April, when it was denied a Membership Action Plan.



snip

Another dilemma Turkey faces is pressure from ethnic lobbies in Abkhazia, the other breakaway region of Georgia, which claim the Turks are their distant relatives and that Turkey should support them in their struggle against Georgia.




Abkhazia parliament's Deputy Speaker Irina Agırba said Saturday that Turkey, too, had a hand in the conflict that took over 2,000 lives.


“Turkey facilitated Georgia's war,” Agırba said. He laid a black wreath before the Georgian Embassy in Ankara together with the Turkey-Caucasus Solidarity Foundation. “It is impossible to understand Turkey's military support for Georgia. We have a connection with Turkey from the past.”

snip



The Russian Interfax agency also blamed Turkey with providing arms to Georgians in the past, and argued that a Turkish ship with marines was waiting on the Georgian shoreline. The agency based its arguments on a report published on Russian defense ministry's Web site, claiming that Turkish military aid to Georgia amounted to $45 million in four years.

“It is natural for Russians to blame Turkey,” Akğun. “Turkey is a NATO member and it sends military aid to many places. Stability in Georgia and keeping Russians away from its borders as much as possible is in Turkey's interests.”

snip

A vehicle carrying Turkish press members in South Ossetia was attacked yesterday, wounding a journalist, Recep Öztürk. Other press members were not injured. Turkey conveyed its demand to Russian officials to move Turkish journalists safely to Turkey.

Turkey's Foreign Ministry formed a crisis table, coordinated by Foreign Minister Ali Babacan and the Foreign Ministry undersecretary, Ambassador Ertuğrul Apakan, and presided over by Ambassador Ünal Çeviköz, to follow the events. Turkish embassy in Tbilisi is taking measures to ensure the safety of Turkish citizens in Georgia. Work is underway to ensure safe evacuation of Turkish citizens should the armed conflict persist. Turkish officials contacted their Azerbaijani counterparts to use the Red Bridge border gate between Georgia and Azerbaijan.



http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=112229


Russia is looking to Ukraine next but I'm sure they will keep an eye on Turkish strongly worded statements.

As for your "real liberal" friends, I doubt they will stop supporting "viva Tsar Putin" and his reclaiming of Stalins homeland. They will show their true colors if Putins hunger isn't satisfied with just Georgia.

Maybe they'll get all giddy and want you to start calling them 'comrade' soon ? lol

just saying it bc ,
I know it irritates a few

[flamingdem]

93. I do believe Putin is grabbing Georgia! The USA did not help itself meddling over there n/t

[ohio2007]

121. Wonder if Jimmy Carter said anything about this Georgia situation?

;)
ya know

[Strelnikov_]

97. These operations are consistent with their intent to settle the issue regarding

the disputed regions once and for all.

Gori is a key junction, holding this position would prevent counterattack on Ossetia and provide a strong bargaining chip in negotiations.

Operations in the Abkhazia region are consistent with settling the issue there once and for all.

Under this scenario (A), I am sure Russia is going to argue that Georgia has lost the right to administer these regions based upon their artillery attack on civilian areas at the open of the current hostilities.


Or, (B) Russia is preparing to annex Georgia.


We should know one way or the other if it is June, 1914 (B) by the end of week.

[maddezmom]

100. Witnesses: Russians seize Georgian police stations

Witnesses: Russians seize Georgian police stations
Print article

ZUGDIDI, Georgia (AP) - Witnesses say Russian soldiers have moved into the Georgian town of Zugdidi near Abkhazia and seized police stations.
In advancing into the western part of Georgia on Monday, Russian forces opened a second front in fighting that has spread from the separatist region of South Ossetia.
An AP reporter saw five to six Russian soldiers posted outside an Interior Ministry building. Several tanks and other armored vehicles were moving through the town

more:http://www.pr-inside.com/witnesses-russians-seize-georgian-police-r748904.htm

Georgia's Interior Ministry captured
Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:37:28 GMT


Russian forces have taken the Georgian Interior Ministry in the western city of Zugdidi amid an escalating conflict in the Caucasus region.

"The Russians have crossed the border and are now in control of Zugdidi," a reporter for Norwegian TV2 news channel said on Monday.

The arrival of the Russian troops came just after UN observers left the town, AFP quoted the reporter as saying.

"We saw Russian military trucks passing by. We saw hundreds of soldiers. There was a mix of soldiers from the regular army and soldiers that are supposed to be peacekeepers," he said.
more: http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=66309§ionid=351020606

[Andre II]

106. Attention the headline is extremely different now

I've clicked on the link and it says:
"Georgia claims Russians have cut country in half"

Nothing in this story seems clear.
And I don't get it why we can't have somehow objective information what's going on here.
The Reuters story had to be deleted cause the witness was wrong.
No Russians in Gori.
And Bush and Cheney starting strange talks ....

[The Croquist]

107. The reason we can't have objective information is that no one really knows what is going on.

Any corespondent from a neutral nation faces death if they get too close to the fighting. The front is changing so fast (in one direction) that if they dare get too close to the front line at worst they can get killed and, more likely, they will be captured and held out of communication for the time being. There are a few independent reports coming from the Georgia side of the lines but even less from the Russian side. The reporters are reporting rumors as information.

[Karenina]

109. And you know all this, HOW?

:rofl:

[The Croquist]

125. I don't "know" this I "think" this

The reason I think this is because the information contradicts itself

The Russians say one thing, the Georgians say another. Reuters, CNN, and AP contradict each other and send out corrections.

There are peace overtures and then there are no peace overtures. Towns are captured and then they are not captured only to be reported as captured again. It's call the fog of war and we are seeing a classic example of it.

Maybe I'm wrong and you do know whats going on. Why don't you enlighten us?

Meanwhile, keep yucking it up while people keep dieing.

[Regret My New Name]

110. How intense is the fighting?

I'm finding it hard to determine exactly how intense it is. Most the videos I have seen, appear to be artillery, and most of the reports of casualties seem to be civilians who died from bombardment... Still unclear as to who is doing most of that because of the conflicting reports... Ehhn. I would imagine the Georgian military must be getting pounded, no? Yet there seems to be little mention of actual battles between the two militaries.

[tidy_bowl]

116. 41 is an ex-CIA.....

....and Putin is an ex-KGB, I have never trusted any ex-spooks.....and still don't. Putin is up to something not good.

[cal04]

130. Georgia bombs South Ossetia - witness

Source: The Australian

From correspondents in Gori, Georgia

AT least six Georgian attack helicopters have bombed targets in the region around the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali, a Reuters witness says.

The action appeared to countermand a Georgian declaration of an end to military activity over the separatist region.

The Reuters reporter said the helicopters flew from Georgia proper and attacked targets just over the de facto boundary with South Ossetia, sending dark smoke billowing into the air.

Russia had earlier accused Georgia of shelling Russian troops, which drove Georgian forces from Tskhinvali this week.



Read more: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24166801-12377,00.html

[maddezmom]

131. do we think this is new as in from Monday evening

or just reporting about the earlier shelling/bombing from earlier today?

edited to add an earlier link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3433589&mesg_id=3433846

[cal04]

132. I 'm not sure if they had a witness earlier

since Gerogia was denying bombing it, but if you think it should be added to other post please do
thanks

[dipsydoodle]

135. It's dated 12th August

and Oz is about 8 hours ahead of the UK. It's 1am here so I guess its new news as opposed to old news. It gives Reuters as the source. As the two of us learned earlier today it's sometimes difficult to separate fact from fiction.

[maddezmom]

136. I think it's a recast of an earlier report

but who knows. I can't find anything new on it from any source.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ohio2007]

134. So much for Russian air superiority unless, the witness is the new "undisclosed" source

MSM catch phrase.







Both sides got the propaganda machines in high gear but this report fails to mention the number of civilians killed.

[amandabeech]

137. The Russians did not accept Georgia's offer of a cease-fire.

Nor has it accepted the cease fire document prepared by the EU, which Georgia has signed.

I wouldn't expect Georgia to stop fighting until the Russians also accept the cease-fire.

Wouldn't be prudent.

[bemildred]

138. Yeah, I expect they will both keep it up until they both decide to stop.

Unilateral declarations aren't worth much.

[amandabeech]

141. Georgia may very well have wanted a cease fire and standstill agreement.

The Russians appear to be able to move about at will, and may have--and I say may have because I think that much written is wholly or partially propaganda at this point--attacked Georgian military bases and its Black Sea port of Poti. If I were Georgia, I'd want to stop destruction of my infrastructure if at all possible.

If I were Russia, I'd keep going until I had reached all my objectives, whatever those are, because I'm pushing the Georgians back at will.

However, I wonder whether any party to this is now thinking rationally, but just expressing pent-up rage, in which case, they will fight until they're completely exhausted and can't even lift a rifle.

[bemildred]

142. Seems likely.

I agree with your assessment. Pooty-Poot doesn't seem the type to let his feelings get away from him, to me. So I expect him to know when to stop. But I could be wrong. I do think Russia is likely to pound the Georgian military forces a good deal before agreeing to a cease-fire.

[amandabeech]

143. I just hope that Putin won't attempt to put in its own choice for Georgian President

but instead has the sense to wait for the next election and back someone amenable to him. I think that would mean guerilla war, no matter whether we would supply the weapons or not.

[bemildred]

145. It would be smarter to let the Georgians take care of it themselves.

I'm sure Saakashvili can get an excellent job in New York or Washington.

[amandabeech]

146. Or not, as the Georgians please.

I agree with you on Saakashvili's employment prospects, however.

On edit: Washington would be better than New York, I think. There are still some nasty folks around New York who might be convinced to "take care of him" for a serious amount of cash.

[bemildred]

147. Well, it's true it would be up to them (the Georgians).

There is no guarantee they will think like I do about it. But then, if I was the Russians, I'd have to think serious about whether I really wanted him gone. Stupid enemies don't come along every day.

[amandabeech]

148. Saakashvili is stupid.

I read a McClatchey piece today in which it was stated that Condi and Shrub told him to avoid any confrontation with the Russians, because the Russians were just itching to go and had been for some time.

It also said that Shrub thought that he had an agreement with Putin that Russia would stop at the S. Ossetian border and leave it at that. Obviously, Shrub was mistaken.

If McClatchey has it right, it may explain why Shrub remained in Beijing and Condi remained on vacation.

If you are interested, I could try to find that link again. I should have posted it when I had it.

[bemildred]

149. That would be interesting.

The story arouses skepticism in me, but I have a certain respect for McClatchey's efforts. I do find it odd, as I have said before, to think he would just start things without getting permission, but stupid would explain it, and I've heard that elsewhere, and that would make him a Bush kind of guy. I don't suppose Putin would lie to Bush about something like that ... :think:

[amandabeech]

150. Here's the McClatchey piece:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/47631.html

[daleo]

154. I read it, but I don't believe it

I think the Bush regime is backpedaling now, because it is obvious they must have been in on the plan. Both the Bush administration and the Georgians gambled that Russia wouldn't respond, or that the tunnel to South Ossetia would be cut before Russia could respond. They lost, and now they need a cover story - i.e. "the Georgian president is stupid".

I mean, you have to swallow this whopper among others:

"Pentagon officials said that despite having 130 trainers assigned to Georgia, they had no advance notice of Georgia’s sudden move last Thursday to send thousands of Georgian troops into South Ossetia to capture that province's capital, Tskhinvali.

Not only did the U.S. troops working alongside their Georgian counterparts not see any signs of an impending invasion, Georgian officials did not notify the U.S. military before the incursion, a senior U.S. defense official told McClatchy."

And this one:

"A "parade" of U.S. officials, including Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, visited Tbilisi to urge Saakashvili to avoid giving the Kremlin to act, a State Department officials said."

This is like all the Bush machinations - when they blow up catastrophically, blame it on stupidity rather than malice. They use this ploy all the time.

[amandabeech]

156. I guess that I'm less willing to dismiss it out of hand than you,

in part because I respect McClatchey, and in part, because I'm not sure what exactly has been going on.

I'm waiting for the dust to clear before I decide what to believe. The fog of war and all that, plus, I think, being older and having very vivid memories of being completely terrified during the Cuban Missile Crisis causes me to be wary of whoever runs things in Moscow.

I have no love for the Bush administration, but I've also been very disappointed in Putin, for whom I initially had high hopes.

Time will tell.

[daleo]

158. I remember the cold war too

That's why I am leery of some of the calls for escalation and the reflexive cold war and WWII analogies being made around this situation. A lot of people seem to be excited by the prospect of re-fighting WWII or something. My dad was in that one, so I know that it wasn't some glorious crusade, even if it had to be fought.

Nothing personal - your comments are well thought out.

[amandabeech]

159. Thanks for the good discussion.

My Dad was in WWII, as well.

I don't want to go back to the cold war or WWII. Both were difficult times, and I hope that cool heads prevail and we get through this mess with as little damage to as few people as possible.

[bemildred]

157. Thanks for that. Here's is some stuff Daleo & I were chewing over earlier:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3775515&mesg_id=3777902

[Dead_Parrot]

144. It seems...

...that Russia want the Georgians out of S. Ossetia and Abkhazia, and recognition of them as independant states (who will promptly sign up to the Russian Federation): A return to the status quo isn't going to cut it.

A Russian cease-fire will probably have those terms in it: And given that the aid to Georgia has so far consisted of words ("Stop! or I'll say 'Stop' again!"), they'll probably get it.

I suspect they also want to knock Georgia's military down a peg or two, emphasise that being a pal of of Bush doesn't actually mean spit when things get tough (and would you like to talk to us instead of NATO?), and generally chuck their weight around.

[Deny and Shred]

139. Wow. If Georgia wants to make a fight of it, they just might get it

Both nations are claiming the other started it. And both are claiming offers of peace that have been rejected. I'm dubious of it all. Clearly, bombs are flying, civilians dying.
Russia has a military inferiority complex stemming from the SU collapse, and Putin has garnered mucho support by muscle flexing. They have been basically silent while the remaining 'superpower' unilaterally did all it did... I don't have to tell you at DU.
As the Baltic states & Poland go NATO, pipelines to get at Caspian oil & gas are built, Russian contracts in Iraq invalidated, - Russia has seen quite an increase in its own fortunes. Of course, they believe the reserves in the Caspian are in their 'sphere of interest.'
They've watched the US go it alone in Iraq, thumb their nose at the UN and Europe, lie their way into military conflict, and all the while sat idly by, for the most part.
If Georgia is going to go attack S. Ossetia again, I don't doubt that Russia is looking to redefine its 'interests.' For better or worse, this is former Soviet territory, right on the border.
Cuba thought it could display 'independence' from its territorial hegemonist, but found they were wrong. Is this really all that different?

[AllentownJake]

140. Russia took Georgian territory and didn't stop in S. Ossetia

and from reports is moving more troops in and scouting more targets.

The Cuba comparison is a little off. America isn't putting nuclear missles there. As far as I know.

[ohio2007]

151. The Russians will stop when they occupy the oil centers in the capital,Tbilisi

all the way to the oil port terminals on the coast.


Sunday May 28 2006

In the foothills of the Caucasus mountains, a long line of broken mud cuts across the meadows. If you go anywhere near it, camouflaged guards carrying automatic weapons emerge from the forest beyond.

These guards in the Borjomi region of Georgia - trained by US army and SAS veterans - are pawns in a new great game gripping Central Asia: their job is to protect the oil pipeline buried 10ft below.

'A terrorist attack is the greatest threat we face,' says the guards' commanding officer, Lieutenant-Colonel Giorgi Pantskhava, an energetic Georgian in desert fatigues and aviator shades.

The $4bn (£2.2bn) BTC - Baku Tbilisi Ceyhan - pipeline comes on stream today It is key in American plans to reduce dependency on Opec oil producers in the turbulent Middle East. Pumping oil 1,000 miles from the Caspian sea to the Mediterranean through Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey, it will avoid Russia - increasingly seen by the US as a resurgent superpower prepared to use control of energy resources as a political weapon.

The pipeline - 70 per cent funded by the World Bank, the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, and export credit agencies - took three years to build and will carry up to one million barrels of oil a day to western markets. Yet its position on the faultline between Russia and its estranged former Soviet neighbours makes it a shaky bet.

The fiercely pro-Washington government of Georgia's president, Mikhail Saakashvili, welcomed the BTC with open arms, saying transit payments would help to kick-start the economy of the faltering ex-Soviet state.

Since coming to power in 2004 Saakashvili has steered his country away from Russia towards co-operation with the US....



snip

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2006/may/28/georgia.theobserver

EU ,
resistance is futile.

[DeltaLitProf]

160. The problem is . . .

. . . the Caspian sea reserves did not pan out nearly to the point they were expected to. And although the reports are that Russia bombed that pipeline, that only effectively cuts off less than 1 percent of the world oil supply.

The bigger prize in all this could be Iran, though, since Georgia shares a border with it. By taking it over, Russia also prevents the US from using its territory as any sort of base from which to launch attacks.

Let's not also forget the Russian public. How would it react if Russia were to ignore Georgia's killing of 1,000 civilians in South Ossetia's capital city? Georgia broke a cease-fire to do so.

[daleo]

152. The U.S. does have a gulag in Cuba though

That's got to bother the Cubans. Plus, the U.S. has had an embargo for nearly 50 years against Cuba. Then there's the Bay of Pigs, and giving succor to Cuban anti-communists. So, Cuba hasn't exactly had a cakewalk from the States.

[ohio2007]

153. Who invented the gulag ?

Didn't millions die in them bc of a paranoid ruler born in Georgia ?

Political prisoners they were called but it was also surplus population sweeps.

How many gulags does raul have?

/sarc

[daleo]

155. I don't know - the Romans?

Solzynechyn gave the Soviet version that catchy name, but the gulag has been around forever.