Georgia move fails to halt raids

[bronxiteforever]

Source: BBC Update at 2pm EST (GMT 1903)

BBC 1903 GMT

Russia has continued air raids deep inside Georgia, after it rejected Tbilisi's announcement that it had called a ceasefire and wanted talks.

Jets bombed targets near Tbilisi, including the airport, and a Georgian boat was later sunk, reports said.

Earlier Georgia said its troops had pulled out of the breakaway region of South Ossetia and Russia was in control of its capital, Tskhinvali.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili told the BBC his forces had observed a ceasefire since 0500 on Sunday morning, but had still been bombed by Russian planes. He said his government had been trying "all day" to contact Russia to discuss a ceasefire.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552908.stm

[tabatha]

1. I think the Russians are going to do as much damage as they can

before stopping.

[AllentownJake]

2. I think they are going to occupy the entire country

and depose the democratically elected leader for a Russian puppet before stopping.

[ohio2007]

13. Annexation of the two areas is on their minds

whats a few hundred square miles ? Nobody will care. And then maybe rounding up more bad mouthing break aways since the west really doesn't want to step in and take a stand.



...a Tsar who's creating the new Facist empire


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-566931/Russia-A-totalitarian-regime-thrall-Tsar-whos-creating-new-Facist-empire.html

[Deny and Shred]

3. Anyplace with resources is on US multinational corporate radar.

In this case, it's protecting the Caspian pipeline
Defending 'American interests' has become defending corporate pillaging of natural resources wherever they can be found.
If the Free Market is so great for America, why can't these multinationals use that good ol' American ingenuity and invest in and develop industries here?
Nope, just scouring the Earth for easily accessible resources.

[The Croquist]

8. So what you're saying is that Russia destroying Georgia

deep down is America's fault.

That makes sense.

[Deny and Shred]

9. Not quite. I'm saying pushing to exploit resources closer and

closer to a country like Russia on the heels of backing Kosovo, building a missile shield, pushing for bordering nations to join NATO is bound to have a pushback effect.
The 'American interests' that we are so quick to defend are overwhelmingly corporate investments that do little for the average American. Yet, the diplomatic and military energies spent to defend them are shared by Americans for the profit of huge multinational firms. The blueprint may have worked in South America in decades past, but instead of finding inventive ways to expand business here to the benefit of average Americans (jobs, tax base, etc.) they push the same simple blueprint around the globe.
That pipeline is deliberately snaked to go around Russian territory. It doesn't surprise me that Russia has taken an interest given the fact that their recent fortunes are due to oil and natural gas.

[Purveyor]

19. Nicely stated and quite 'spot on'... BTW, it was indeed Georgia that touched off this conflict. n/t

[ohio2007]

21. So you feel they should be crushed into the ash heap of history under Russian tanks. nice

They are about to be swamped out and crushed much like the way Saddam's army ran over that little kingdom in 91.

But that expedition was all about the oil ;)

[Purveyor]

24. They should have considered the consequences before they decided to attack the citizens

of South Ossetia, many of them Russian. The neocon inspired Georgian government would have gladly "crushed into the ash heap of history" the peoples of S. Ossetia had not the Russians intervened.

[ohio2007]

26. Maybe they did consider the consequences of their own citizens

living in South Ossetia. The Russians granted 70,000 people passports. They were not Russian citizens a few years ago.


snip
.Russian leaders have said they will defend their citizens in South Ossetia, referring to the nearly 70,000 people who have Russian passports or work in the neighboring country...
snip
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.explainer/index.html
Why ?

btw
There is a minority of a German population living there also.

Maybe Berlin can make a few anexation demands of its own before the real estate bubble bursts.


Maybe Mexico should demand the state of california since...well...All those green card citizens live and work there.


knee jerk

[The Croquist]

27. First of all we don't know what touched off the war.

Russia says Georgia did it and Georgia says South Ossetia did it. I will tell you one thing. The Russians sure did attack fast. It's almost like they knew something was up.

I also disagree that the citizens of South Ossetia are Russians. How can they be Russians if they don't live in Russia?

I'm still wondering why it's OK to nurture the nationalist feelings of South Ossetia but it's OK to "crushed into the ash heap of history" the people of Chechnya.

Why didn't Russia go to the UN, get resolutions passed and take the time to put together an International coalition?

[Purveyor]

32. If its OK for Kosovo(nationalist feelings) , why shouldn't it be for the people of South Ossetia.

This country bombed the piss out of Serbia to allow Kosovo to establish its own country that btw, was just officially recognized by the UN.

[ohio2007]

14. ..Russia destroying Georgia because....

..the US congress won't lift the "No Drill" ban ;)

[Doctor Cynic]

4. Russian news agencies report sunken Georgian ship

Source: AP

TBILISI, Georgia (AP) — Russian news agencies say the Defense Ministry is claiming to have sunk a Georgian missile boat that was trying to attack Russian navy ships in the Black Sea.

Russia's Defense Ministry refused to comment on the Sunday reports to The Associated Press and Georgian officials could not immediately be reached.

If confirmed, the incident could mark a serious escalation of the fighting between Russia and Georgia over the separatist Georgian province of South Ossetia.

"Georgian missile patrol boats today made two attempts to attack Russian military ships. The Russian ships opened fire in response and as a result, one of the Georgian ships carrying out the attack was sunk," the ITAR-Tass news agency quoted a ministry spokesman as saying.

Read more: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hV2N6fVKS5slf10A13Dj_uIdaZ4QD92FJCEG0

---

Now the Russians have full air and sea supremacy. The Kremlin wants to tell everyone who's boss in the region.

Tbilisi's airport is shutting down: http://www.tbilisiairport.com/0.php?id=1

[TomInTib]

5. And we have 1,000 troops there.

http://www.newsmeat.com/news/meat.php?articleId=28783276&channelId=2951&buyerId=newsmeatcom&buid=3281

[Ghost Dog]

7. A two-week exercise starting Jul 15, it says there.

Are they really still there?

[TomInTib]

10. I think so. Something like this requires weeks of staging.

Our satellites must have picked it up.

I don't think we could afford to cut and run out on Georgia.

[lovuian]

6. Russia had two jets shot down and Georgia is in quite a mess

in reality US will abandon them

[ohio2007]

11. The greatest mismatch in history of war

Georgia’s war with Russia is a David and Goliath battle that, military experts say, the Black Sea state has no chance of winning.

The Georgians are outnumbered and outgunned in every department. Russia has about 697,000 troops, while Georgia has only 19,500 full-time regulars.


And with Russia’s 1,200 combat aircraft confronting Georgia’s seven outmoded support planes, and 6,000 tanks against 100 aging machines, there is no contest.


Matthew Clements, Eurasia editor for Jane’s Defense journal, said last night: ‘The Georgian military cannot withstand a full Russian assault.


'The Russians have total air superiority and their coordinated operation gives the Georgians no chance of resisting.’





http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1043185/The-Pipeline-War-Russian-bear-goes-Wests-jugular.html

Resistance is futile

Tsar Putin doesn't take NO
or even YES for an answer

[daleo]

12. This is the greatest mismatch?

Here's a few other mismatches, off the top of my head:

Grenada vs the U.S.
Libya vs the U.S.
Panama vs the U.S.

The Grenada thing still gets me.

Finland did pretty well in the Winter War, so sometimes mismatches can be surprising.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

15. What does that have to do with anything?

You're really stretching to blame this on the US.

[daleo]

16. The post was about this being "the greatest mismatch in the history of war"

I was merely pointing out the falsity of that statement by noting a few counter examples. In no way was I blaming the U.S. for this war. I don't know how you managed to read that into my post.

[Selatius]

17. There were even greater mismatches than Russia v. Georgia. US v. Grenada was one example.

It wasn't an attempt to blame the US for anything, but as far as statistics go, Grenada was in a far worse situation than Georgia currently is in terms of numbers of troops, tanks, and warplanes to use.

[ohio2007]

20. How about Moscow vs Prague ? just one of a few 'breakway' republics

western Europe,NATO and the US considered an internal matter. Did they ever go on record and say they regretted that one?

Lucky that will never happen again......

so yes, blame can be placed on the US in about a month or two ?
/sarc

[Selatius]

23. Czechoslovakia could've made Russia bleed if they wanted a bloody fight.

Czechoslovakia was not a defenseless country. They could've followed Hungary's route and tried to throw off Soviet domination by force during the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. Of course, Hungary was ultimately subjugated with much bloodshed. Compared to present-day Georgia, Czechoslovakia of that period was well-armed with a bigger population and more troops, but they chose to avoid the bloody scenario seen with Hungary in order to save civilian lives.

The Prague Spring and the Hungarian Revolution are events I favored highly, since I am a supporter of democratic forms of socialism. They both chose different routes of resistance against Stalinism, but I applaud them both the same and consider both heroic acts much like that man who stood in front of the tanks at Tiananmen Square in 1989.

As far as assigning blame goes, that's somebody else's pissing match, but somebody here wants a pissing match, I guess.

[ohio2007]

28. Hungary was ultimately subjugated with much bloodshed.

your own words.

Since you don't want to compare apples to oranges, your saying Putin is NOT the new Stalin ?

It is Putins pissing match.

[Selatius]

31. My own words. So what? It wasn't as David v. Goliath compared to some other confrontations.

That was the whole point of my response, but it is going over people's heads. Me saying Putin is not the new Stalin? I'm not talking about Putin. What in my original post reference Putin? Nothing.

"The greatest mismatch in the history of war"

Your words.

[High Plains]

34. Yes. Putin is NOT the new Stalin.

Anymore than Bush is the new Hitler.

Or Saakashvili is the new Chamberlain.

But nice propaganda try! This is not the 1950s, as much as some would like it to be.

[ohio2007]

18. Sorry you don't agree with the article excerpt

the authors wording was to point out the battle should be over as fast as the spring time in Prague and the civilian death toll will be just as equal.


Grenada vs the U.S.
Libya vs the U.S.
Panama vs the U.S


You make it look like Grenada,Libya and Panama were the aggressors.


Libya? I didn't know we invaded Libya? We still have troops in Libya and Grenada ? Not sure what the current civilian death tolls were of those incursions but I'm pretty sure they pale in comparison to the meat grinder mentality going on right now.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fea_1218400199


Chinese ( companies ) own the Panama canal zone since we gave that up as promised.

The ancient Greeks held out against the shear #'s of invading 'Iranians' but I doubt the the current Georgian mismatch will end up any better off

[daleo]

25. The point was, this isn't the greatest mismatch in military history

There are countless cases that were more mismatched, including the ones I cited.

As for civilian deaths, most accounts so far say Georgia is responsible for the majority. I don't doubt Russia will account for its share, especially if the contest continues.

There was no U.S. invasion of Libya, but there was a substantial air attack. That counts as an act of war.

[ohio2007]

29. rather pointless to bring that up imo

To bad you don't know the situations behind the Naples, Lockerbie bombings not to mention the German disco bombings and cruise ship hijacking of the mid 80's along with the assisinantion of the Egyptian president. If so, maybe you would know why Gadaffy was told to sit in the corner by most of the world.


lol
Guess you wern't born yet eh ? ;)

[daleo]

33. That's all off the original point of the post

Which was about "the greatest mismatch in military history". Unfortunately I was born by that time and remember it well. Suffice to say I was no more a fan of Reagan that I am a fan of Bush. But that doesn't mean I thought much of Ghaddafi either. I felt sorry for the children killed in that air raid, just as I felt sorry for the victims of the numerous other bombings during the 80's.

[rustydad]

22. Cease Fire?

Didn't Georgia invade South Ossetia, get within artillery range of it's capital, and then declare a cease fire in deference to the opening of the Olympics? And at midnight of the same day open fire on the capital with barrages of rocket fire and artillary hitting with no discrimination civilians, water and sewer and electric plants? And didn't they target universities and hospitals? Can you say *Iraq*. And you expect Russia to stand down folks? Israel and the US have been training and supplying Georgia's military for years. Does anyone think we would stand by if a Canadian Province succeeded, say Ontario, and Canada shelled it's capital killing thousand of people, many Americans? Russia was provoked and now will take advantage of the situation and obliterate the proxy US and Israeli military in Georgia. And there isn't a dam thing we can do about it. Thanks neocons, again the masters of FUBAR. Bob

[ohio2007]

30. gotta link ?

The LAST cease fire offerred by Georgia was refused by Russia. Well, they said they never were officially given word calling for a cease fire

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/10/un.georgia/index.html?eref=rss_topstories