Russia aiming to take over Georgia - Saakashvili (has spoken w/ * and signalled his "full support")

[maddezmom]

Source: Reuters


BERLIN, Aug 10 (Reuters) - Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said Russia intends to take over his country to secure energy supply routes from central Asia and to begin ridding the region of democracies.

"They want the whole of Georgia," Saakashvili said in an interview on Sunday with Germany's Rhein-Zeitung newspaper.

"The Russians need control over energy routes from central Asia and the Caspian Sea," he said in the interview to be published in the paper's Monday edition.

"In addition, they want to get rid of us, they want regime change," he added. "Every democratic movement in this neighbouring region must be got rid of."

Saakashvili said he had spoken to U.S. President George W. Bush who had signalled his "full support".

Read more: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LA540401.htm

[frankieT]

1. Saakashvili is full of shit

Russia is not interested in Georgia. They're maybe interested to punish Georgia for taking a strategically hostile position towards RUssia and causing them trouble. I'm glad they intervened, without it thousands of ossetians would be massacred by now and the western media would cheer this "clean" military operation.

[AllentownJake]

3. Yeah Countries should just let territories declare independence

I wonder what would happen if New Mexico decided it wanted to be part of Mexico or if Michigan decided it wanted to be part of Canada. Wonder what our response would be to that.

[Arctic Dave]

4. Maybe the people of the region should be able to

decide for themself were they want their borders, not another country with strategic interest after WWII.

[AllentownJake]

8. Putin is doing a powerplay here

and trying to reclaim land from the Soviet Hey day.

I don't see the russians as being liberators.

[Arctic Dave]

22. Russian heyday? Ossetia isn't what you would call an immense

comeback. Are they trying to reallocate the bloc one district at a time?

[AllentownJake]

26. I don't think he has any plans on stopping at Ossetia

[Arctic Dave]

30. Russia may be flexing their muscles

but they are in no way ready militarily or financially for a long drawn out occupation.

[Dead_Parrot]

53. I think Gulf war 1 might be good parallel

From a military standpoint, that is - Kick the forces out of the disputed territory and flatten the military infrastructure, but leave the country basically intact.

We'll see, I guess.

[The Croquist]

16. Like Chechnya

The Russians are really big fans of Chechnyan Independence aren't they?

[Arctic Dave]

29. Probably no more then we are of Afghani or Iraqi

independence.

[SpikeTss]

5. It was already answered

In the case of Kosovo we applauded and supported separatist movements. A few weeks ago this was finalized by the Western supported split of Kosovo from Serbia.

So I suppose that we will put enormous pressure on Georgia to allow Ossetian and Abkhazian independence, correct?

[AllentownJake]

9. Ironic

Russia was the biggest opponent of that solution.

[High Plains]

10. Or Kosovo?

[amandabeech]

11. I'm from Michigan originally.

There have been times during the last 8 years when I would have welcomed a secession, but not the full-out assault from the U.S. that would follow.

[AllentownJake]

12. I'm from PA

and think it would be nice if the North East got together and formed our own country from time to time...

[amandabeech]

20. So long as you include the upper Midwest, I'm in! n/t

[AllentownJake]

21. Michigan can come

Indiana and Ohio are out unless they turn blue this year.

[amandabeech]

23. Well, maybe the northern parts of those states could pull a Kosovo or S. Osettia and secede.

Cleveland and Gary are more like the Northeast, but southern parts of Indiana and Ohio are the south, as far as I'm concerned.

[AllentownJake]

24. The middle part of PA is

as bad as the southern parts of Indiana and Ohio...there is like a ribbon of stupidity that is broken up by Pittsburg and Erie and Johnston and than continues accross the country.

[amandabeech]

25. I used to live in Mechanicsburg west of Harrisburg.

As Carville said, it's the Alabama part of Pennsylvania politically.

However, I met some decent people with whom I disagreed politically to an extreme degree.

[AllentownJake]

28. They aren't bad people

They just consistently vote against their own interest for very silly reasons. Same thing in Indiana. Nice people silly reasons why they supported the GOP.

[amandabeech]

31. When I stood outside the polling place in 2004 (working for the Dems),

I talked to a teacher who was my opposite number for the Pugs.

I asked him why he voted Republican, since most teachers that I know vote Dem. I mentioned that it was the Dems who wanted to fund the schools fully, not the Pugs. I talked about a local funding issue. All of a sudden his mouth puckered up and his eyes bulged out. He had no response, but I think that it got him thinking.

Hopefully there are more who could at least be convinced to look at the Dem candidate seriously once in a while!

[frankieT]

13. in fact south ossetia was always free from georgian rule

it is only with the collapse of USSR that Georgia reclaimed authority on South Ossetiaa. They never wanted georgian authority, fought for it and obtained DE FACTO a quasi independent mini state. If the great western "democracies" cheered Kosovo independence, they should welcome South Ossetia and Abkhazia because their case for secession is CRYSTAL CLEAR. They're all overwhelmingly pro-russian.
Even the georgians got used to it, until the lunatic Saakachvili decided for IDEOLOGICAL reasons that he must gain military control on these regions. Knowing the tiny rebellious populations were hostile to Georgia, he decided to use the "ethnic cleansing" path : hundreds if not thousands of civilians killed in one night of vicious bombings and half the population fleeing to North Ossetia. His idea was simple: with the support of US and western media he can clean South Ossetia of it's small population (70000) and show clear borders to go for NATO.

[rayofreason]

34. Apologist for Russian aggression.

Georgian forces moved in after South Ossetian attacked Georgian civilians last Thursday.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0808...

[AllentownJake]

36. I'm sure the oil and gas pipelines

that run through Georgia are in no way a reason the Russian government would be interested in this territory.

[rayofreason]

37. The better to squeeze the EU...

...if the only non-Russian route to the Central Asian oilfields is closed - either by bombing or ceasing to be "non-Russian".

Oh, there are lots of Russians in the Kazahkstan etc. as well. That part of the world is what Russian used to call "our middle asia". Used to.

[nebenaube]

46. bullshit propaganda and revisionist history.... n/t

[hedgehog]

38. More like immigrants into an area deciding to take it for their home country.

Sort of like we did with Texas and California....

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rayofreason]

32. "Russia is not interested in Georgia"???

Is a statement that only a totally ignorant person, or an apologist for Russian imperialism, would post.

Russia wants the near-abroad back and this is the beginning of an invasion to take over the country. The Baltic Republics will be next, followed by Ukraine. All have large Russian populations.

Your statement "Saakashvili is full of shit" and the rest of your post is foolishly ignorant at best and deviously disingenuous at worst.

[AllentownJake]

33. Wasn't the German population in the Sudatenland

Hitler's excuse for taking over Czechoslavakia?

[rayofreason]

35. Yep...

History repeats itself.

[frankieT]

41. oh you know when you use examples try to think a little before

because the official motive for the Georgian army and artillery to launch hell on South Ossetia was the ethnic georgians living there.
And BTW, please avoid nazi comparisons it's intellectualy very poor and insulting to russians who suffered the most from nazism.

[AllentownJake]

42. I never said Nazi

Just pointing out that in most cases using an ethnic population as your excuse to attack another isn't acceptable. I guess I could have used Iraq and Kuwait but the German example seems the most fitting.

[frankieT]

43. i find the example a little bit too oriented but OK

in general it's a lame excuse to invade a country but here the situation is quite different :
- South Ossetia (and Abkhazia) are overwhelmingly anti-georgian and pro-russian. And historically, it was always the case. It's crystal clear.
- Russia never annexed those regions even if it was always possible and already the case DE FACTO.
- So we're speaking about historical quasi-russian enclaves in georgian territory brutally attacked targeting all civilians. Russia responded with sending troops inside SO and bombing few military and maybe infrastructure targets in Georgia.

I don't see how the russians gained something from this, their main goal was to avoid that Georgia oust by shelling and torching all ossetians and russians from SO. That's why i find your comparison bogus, Russia gained nothing from this except the fact that Georgia failed in its attempt (which could jeopardize its entry in NATO or Europe).

[AllentownJake]

45. It isn't over yet

and Russia isn't bombing just that region. It appears they are bombing Georgian strategical targets through out the country. Is Russia softening up Georgia for a full scale invasion? Does Russia plan to remove Georgia's democratically elected President and replacing him with someone more to their liking? Does Russia plant to take part of an area where a gas pipeline has being contracted to make it a DMZ to prevent its construction thus making them more powerful in Europe?

After Russia's behavior with their own break away province and the Ukranian elections I find it hard to believe Russia is just being noble protectors of Civilians here.

[frankieT]

49. maybe but for now all that speak is pure speculation

so far Russia is bombing military targets and the fighting continue in SO where there are still a lot of georgian units.
For now, RUssia has a kind of moral high ground, they moved to protect the russian friendly historic inhabitants of South Ossetia threatened by destruction or exile. That was the main goal of Saakachvili, he failed and this simple fact is enough of a political and geostrategical victory for Russia. Russians want georgians out of SO and guarantees that they will never resort to such violence to solve the situation there.
Russians are rational here, they know a conflict with Georgia will be very difficult for them with little gains. If they can derail crazy anti-russian Saakachvili plans, i think its enough for them.

[AllentownJake]

50. The people in that region declared independence

Generally speaking that is grounds for occupation by the federal authority.

I don't support what Georgia did in full but I understand moving on an area that declares that it is no longer part of the country militarily.

Now something similar to that happened a few years ago involving a small ethnic group and a large country.

Georgia is using the same argument Russia used with Chechnya. What a crazy world we live in.

[frankieT]

51. A more adequate comparison would be Serbia vs Kosovo backed by NATO

[AllentownJake]

52. True Chechnya had no friends to help them

[Name removed]

40. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SpikeTss]

2. War criminals among themselves

Stalin smiles in his grave.

What a surprise!

Saakashvili said he had spoken to U.S. President George W. Bush who had signalled his "full support".

[fedsron2us]

39. The leaders lie while the people die

With so many potential war criminals involved (Putin, Bush, Saakashvili etc) perhaps we could get this scheduled as an event for the 2012 Olympics.

[ckramer]

7. Putin got to use some expired ammunition, didn't he?

[UpInArms]

14. Flashback to May 15, 2001

HALLIBURTON SUBSEA OPENS CASPIAN MARINE BASE

ABERDEEN, Scotland - Halliburton International Inc. and KASPMORNEFTELOT (KMNF), the marine division of the State Oil Company of Azerbaijan Republic (SOCAR), have entered into a 12-year contract for a marine base and associated services to support Halliburton Subsea offshore construction activity in the Caspian region. Halliburton Subsea is a business unit of Halliburton Company's (NYSE: HAL) Energy Services Group.

The base, with a 6,000-square metre lay down area, is located at KMNF's Southern Basin adjacent to Caspian Shipyard. The base will be primarily utilized to support Halliburton Subsea's catamaran crane vessel Qurban Abbasov (previously known as the Titan 4) during the restoration and upgrade of the vessel and during the forthcoming offshore construction, pipelay and subsea activities. The site will also be developed to provide warehouse, office and training facilities that will include advanced diver and life support technician training, utilizing the company’s 16-man modular saturation system.

The Qurban Abbasov is operated by Halliburton Subsea in an alliance agreement with SOCAR for a period of 12 years. It will provide an advanced, stable, dynamically positioned construction platform for saturation and remote vehicle diving; flexible and bundle pipeline installation with trenching; emergency pipeline repair, subsurface well intervention with wire line; and coiled tubing. It also will be used in flotel configuration for hook-up and commissioning work.

"The acquisition of the marine base is a further indication of our commitment to the Caspian region and to the success of the partnership arrangements with SOCAR," said Edgar Ortiz, president and chief executive officer, Halliburton’s Energy Services Group.

Halliburton's Energy Services Group (ESG) delivers real-time systems, technologies, and services to the upstream oil and gas industry. The Halliburton Subsea segment of ESG provides comprehensive subsea engineering, installation, and construction with a fleet of 84 ROVs, six construction and survey class Dynamic Positioning (DP) vessels, three construction class DP semi-submersibles and an array of subsea production equipment. The depth and breadth of the Energy Services Group's integrated products, services, and solutions allows its customers to more efficiently, find, develop, and produce oil and gas reservoirs.

Halliburton Company, founded in 1919, is the world's largest provider of products and services to the petroleum and energy industries. The company serves its customers with a broad range of products and services through its Energy Services Group and Engineering and Construction Group business segments.

[maddezmom]

15. Lavrov told Rice Georgian leader "must go"--US envoy

Lavrov told Rice Georgian leader "must go"--US envoy 10 Aug 2008 17:28:31 GMT
Source: Reuters
UNITED NATIONS, Aug 10 (Reuters) - Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Sunday that the president of Georgia "must go", the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations told the Security Council.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N10282351.htm

[frankieT]

17. leave to the georgians to decide their leader.

Russia should stick to the strict defense against the georgian attack. Leave the "regime change" rhetoric to US-NATO freedom-democracy operations (Kosovo, Serbia, Iraq...)

[maddezmom]

18. Lavrov tells Rice about Georgia’s numerous war crimes in S Ossetia.

MOSCOW, August 10 (Itar-Tass) - Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Sunday held a telephone conversation with US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. The conversation was held on the initiative of the American side, Russian Foreign Ministry sources said.

Lavrov “stated our principled assessments of the developments in South Ossetia.” He “stressed that in the conditions of the persisting direct threat to the life of Russian citizens in South Ossetia, the Russian peacekeeping forces in accordance with the existing international agreements are continuing an operation to force the Georgian side to peace.” The minister also “pointed to the numerous war crimes of the Georgian troops against peaceful civilians of South Ossetia, which resulted in a major humanitarian catastrophe in the republic,” according to the sources.


more:http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=1294332...

[AllentownJake]

19. After Russia's own little war crimes in one of their break away provinces

They are in no position to go after Georgia.

[amandabeech]

27. Yes, they really distinguished themselves in Chechnya.

You know, I just feel like it's back to the Cold War. Putin thinks that letting go of the other Soviet Republics was a huge geopolitical mistake. He's trying to undo what Gorby did. I don't think that it's communist ideology making a comeback, but ancient Russian paranoia and national low self-esteem.

Clinton and the others should never have kicked Russia when she was down in the 1990s. What goes around often does come around.

It's just so deja vu all over again.

[frankieT]

48. If russia hasn't the right to denounce georgian atrocities who does ?

It seems that Georgia being our friend, there is no one to help South Ossetia ? Oh they're only 70000 who cares uh ?
During the most violent part of the conflict from the 7th to 8th august Georgia showered Tskhinvali with grad rockets and other imprecise artillery, no one reacted in western embassies, they woke up only when Russia sent troops to stop the georgian attack

[ButterflyBlood]

44. I doubt Russia goes all the way in occupying all of Georgia

It'd be twice as bad for them as occupying Iraq is us. Probably even worse than Chechnya. Georgia's terrain is perfect for guerilla warfare, and the Turks and Azeris would ensure that they'd have no shortage of weapons. It'd be Afghanistan all over again.

[AllentownJake]

47. Don't need to occupy

Just need to beat them up enough that the spicket of Central Asian oil gets turned off and it has to go through Russia.

They can turn a profit on this operation. Increase price and increase your marketshare at the same time.