Georgian President requests U.S. support in war with Russia

[sabra]

Source: CNN via panarmenian.net

Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili stated that Russia started war with Georgia.

"It's in the interests of the United States to extend a helping hand to Georgia. Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory," Saakashvili said in an interview with CNN.

"Georgia will withdraw its unit from Iraq to give a proper response to Russian aggression," he said, RBC reports.

Read more: http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=26849

[atreides1]

1. Sorry Mr. President

But we're just a little busy right now, you're on your own.

[bushmeister0]

2. Yow! Lucky for us Cheney is in charge while W. is off eating Chinese food.

He'll know what to do. God help us!

[ryanmuegge]

149. Make no mistake. Cheney is and has always been in charge at ALL times.

[Solly Mack]

3. I saw him speak earlier in the day and he asked then

He really expected it...quoted Bush as calling Georgia a beacon of democracy (in the region)...an example...and he felt the US would offer assistance.

[wordpix2]

40. if the US assists, it will be with Chinese/Saud money, not ours since we're $10 trillion in the hole

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

100. Roughly $300B in interests payments right off the top of the budget.

Never mentioned.

[MadrasT]

88. Oh. Fuck. Me.

That is NOT good. I have a knot in my tummy.

[bahrbearian]

4. Russia attacks its neighbors, Russia has WMD, go for it Chimpy.

[Tempest]

5. Georgia was the aggressor

And is now begging for help?

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[The Croquist]

13. How was Georgia the aggressor?

They were fighting rebels on their own territory not Russian territory.

I wonder what Russia is up to. Do they really care about Georgia?

[Tempest]

18. Georgia attacked the Russian base in South Ossetia

And South Ossetia has a large group of Russian citizens who were also attacked.

[The Croquist]

41. South Ossetia is part of Georgia

or at least not part of Russia. Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

"South Ossetia is a region in the South Caucasus, formerly the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast within the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic, part of which has been de facto independent from Georgia since its declaration of independence as the Republic of South Ossetia during the Georgian-Ossetian conflict early in the 1990s. Its independence has not been diplomatically recognized by any United Nations member-state – which continues to regard South Ossetia as part of Georgia. Georgia has retained control over parts of the region's eastern and southern districts where it created, in April 2007, a Provisional Administrative Entity of South Ossetia headed by ethnic Ossetians (former members of the separatist government) which would negotiate with central Georgian authorities regarding its final status and conflict resolution."

As the above states, no UN member-state (which would include Russia) recognizes South Ossetia as an independent state.

In my opinion just because Russian citizens are in a war zone does not grant Russia the right to attack Georgia.

[Dead_Parrot]

75. Not according to most South Ossetians, though.

Many of them have Russian passports, and the Rouble is common currency: It's been a de-facto independent state since the '90s

The ethic Ossetians - about 2/3rds of the population - want independence; the Ethnic Georgians want reunification with Georgia. Unfortunatley, it seems that Saakashvili (probably egged on by the morons in the Whitehouse) has become a 'decider' and opted to re-take the region by force.

Neither side has a 'right' to South Ossetia, and it looks like a negotiated settlement is out of the window, but the situation is a little more complicated than "good guy vs bad guy".

And as usual, it's the poor fuckers in the middle who will do most of the dying.

[atreides1]

20. Georgia was the aggressor

South Ossetia has been autonomous since 1992.

"in the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won defacto independence in a war against Georgia that ended in 1992."

[Odin2005]

57. Nobody except Russia recognizes South Ossetia as a state.

Because the South Ossetian rebels are Russian patsies. It's basically a part of Georgia controlled by Russia as a puppet state.

[atreides1]

59. They are still recognized by another sovereign state

And only Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the UAE recognized the Tali ban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan, and no one seemed to have a problem with that until 9/11!

If the people of South Ossetian don't want Georgian rule, that should be their choice shouldn't it, after all they have been autonomous for the last 16 years.

Something akin to what the US tried to do for the Kurds of Iraq.

[The Croquist]

108. Some Afghani's had a problem with the Taliban prior to 911

Most countries cared very little about Afghanistan prior to 911 but there was a civil war going on. The opposition was called the "Northern Alliance" and did most of the dieing for the US during the invasion.

I don't buy this sudden burst of humanitarianism from the Russians. They don't seem to feel the same way when it comes Chechnya.

I also think that the Russian response was suspiciously fast. It reminds me a bit like Nazi Germany's response when Poland "attacked" it in 1939 or Japan's response when China "attacked" it in 1937. In both case the nation that was "attacked" just happened to have it's military in readiness at the crucial time and place.

Typically sudden attacks on countries or allies take much longer to respond to. Brittan and France declared war on Germany following the German invasion but didn't have a chance to do squat before Poland fell. Conveniently the Russians just happened to be ready.

[tama]

65. Kosovo

Nobody recognized Kosovo when CIA-supported Albanian terrorists provoked Serbia to bring peace back to Kosovo, giving Clinton pretext to start a Clinton war.

Oh, the hypocrisy...

[eridani]

116. Except most of the people who live there

That ought to count for something.

[Dead_Parrot]

141. Apparently not. nt

[eridani]

152. Sources? I have one that says otherwise

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/09/geo...

To many Russians this vast geopolitical retreat from places which were part of Russia long before the dawn of communist rule brought no bonus in relations with the west. The more Russia drew in its horns, the more Washington and its allies denounced the Kremlin for its imperial ambitions.

Unlike in eastern Europe, for instance, today in breakaway states such as South Ossetia or Abkhazia, Russian troops are popular. Vladimir Putin's picture is more widely displayed than that of the South Ossetian president, the former Soviet wrestling champion Eduard Kokoity. The Russians are seen as protectors against a repeat of ethnic cleansing by Georgians.

In 1992, the west backed Eduard Shevardnadze's attempts to reassert Georgia's control over these regions. The then Georgian president's war was a disaster for his nation. It left 300,000 or more refugees "cleansed" by the rebel regions, but for Ossetians and Abkhazians the brutal plundering of the Georgian troops is the most indelible memory.

<snip>

In the Balkans, the west promoted the disintegration of multiethnic Yugoslavia, climaxing with their recognition of Kosovo's independence in February. If a mafia-dominated microstate like Montenegro can get western recognition, why shouldn't flawed, pro-Russian, unrecognised states aspire to independence, too?

Given its extraordinary ethnic complexity, Georgia is a post-Soviet Union in miniature. If westerners readily conceded non-Russian republics' right to secede from the USSR in 1991, what is the logic of insisting that non-Georgians must remain inside a microempire which happens to be pro-western?

[Dead_Parrot]

154. Ah, sorry....

...I meant as in:
-"Surely that should count for something"
-"Apparently not"

Not many commentators outside of some DUers seem to give a rat's arse what the people of South Ossetia actually want. (Which appears to be independence from Georgia, followed rapidly by reunification with N. Ossetia.)

Hey ho.

[eridani]

157. Oopsie. Titles don't let you do sarcasm smilies. Sorry. n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

134. Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili is a U.S.-educated lawyer

What puppets we are talking about

[pampango]

113. If Georgia was the "aggressor", the North must have been the aggressor in our Civil War

when it attacked Fort Sumter in South Carolina.

[Renew Deal]

14. Georgia didn't attack Russia.

[jayfish]

17. BS! -NT-

Jay

[Tempest]

23. Only BS to those who don't know about the region

South Ossetia declared independence from Georgia in the early 1990s, but it was not internationally recognized. Many ethnic Ossetians feel close to Russia and have Russian passports and use its currency.

[jayfish]

27. You're Opinion Is Noted.

GEORGIA ENDS AGREEMENT FOR PEACEKEEPERS IN ABKHAZIA
Russia warns Georgia detaining peacekeepers may end in bloodshed
TIMELINE - Georgia and Russia's worsening relations

Jay

[ohio2007]

63. Hitler used that reasoning when invading czechoslovakia in 1938

Hitler was rescuing the Germans that were cut off.....
If talking about Russians protecting Russians in another country that is.

btw
why didn't the UN recognize South Ossetia? What were the reasons against recognizing them in the 90's ?

[YankmeCrankme]

76. Wow, what revisionist thinking.

Hitler's claim was false, no Germans were in danger in Czechoslovakia, whereas Georgia has actually attacked South Ossetia.

[ohio2007]

98. .....

went right over your head

[YankmeCrankme]

117. Yes, because you're so superior you can't make a point without being obtuse.

If it wasn't, as your post was written, that Russia is doing the same thing Hitler did in regards to 1938 Czechoslovakia, than what were you trying to say? Instead of some haughty...it went right over your head...how about explaining what you mean.

[ohio2007]

125. Russia must stop its Aggression in Georgia, Estonian Minister Paet declared

Russia must stop its Aggression in Georgia, Estonian Minister Paet declared
snip

http://www.finchannel.com/index.php?option=com_content&...

It's nice to see ex Soviet bloc members starting to wake up and smell the past


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18272807 /

btw,
Why did A H annex that region in his territorial demands to preserve "peace in our time" ?

bc he claimed after WW I, German citizens in that area wanted to be repatriated with the fatherland ?

no ?


you sir, are doomed to repeat watching history repeat since your claim of bliss in ignoring the past is showing.

Maybe your community college professor isn't covering that episode of history from older books ?
They tend to be outdated so fast

[Critters2]

148. Actually, there were ethnic Germans in the Sudetenland.

There were also ethnic Germans in Poland, which was one of the excuses Hitler used to attack that country. I know they were there because some of my ancestors were from those German communities in Poland. Doesn't mean Poland and Czechoslovakia weren't sovereign nations whose boundaries should've been respected.

[AlphaCentauri]

135. Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili is a U.S.-educated lawyer

so he may have some bias against russians

[SidneyCarton]

48. Beware the simple explanation,

In the Caucasus nothing is as simple as it looks, and nothing happens there without years of history and abuses leading up to it. What the Georgians did was stupid, but it didn't happen in a vacuum.

[ohio2007]

64. oil nt

[chatnoir]

53. Aggressor?

Tskhinvali, the capital of S Ossetia, is a small city on the border with Georgia and is bordered on 2 or 3 sides by Georgian villages. From residential bldgs in Tskhinvali, they began firing on these Georgian villages as a provocation. Of course if/when the Georgians respond - they begin screaming "the Georgians are shooting at civilian buildings!".

Russia has been planning this for awhile. Where do you think this 59th tank division came from all of a sudden? They began "training" 2-3 months ago. Everyone knew it was just a reason to concentrate forces before a provocation.

Russia's had it in for Georgia for years.

[The Croquist]

109. THanks. I just posted similar suspicions

but you obviously know more about this then me.

"Something is Rotten in Denmark"
"What do you care? This is Georgia."

[chatnoir]

121. I'm with you. Seems we are among the few dissenting opinions in here.

Thinking Georgia is the aggressor? Seriously... People are being fed a Kremlin painted picture of what happened without realizing it.

[AlphaCentauri]

136. so who were training Georgia's army in the last two months?

[Odin2005]

56. BS, Georgia is a victim of Russian imperialism and revanchism.

The South Ossetian and Abkhaz "rebels" are Russian patsies.

[Dead_Parrot]

84. Oh, horseshit.

South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Ajara have wanted out of Georgia since god knows when: If it helps, think of the Kurds and Marsh Arabs wanting independance from Hussain's Iraq.

The difference being that Saddam flattened the Kurds and Marsh Arabs with the US's tacit blessing, whereas in Ossetia...

...Oh, wait...

No fucking difference at all, is there?

[ButterflyBlood]

102. Damn straight

They ethnically cleansed all the Georgians out of South Ossetia and now has been ran as a Russian puppet regime. The Georgians are just standing up to the Russian imperialist pigs.

[Leader2]

145. Goergia deserves to be invaded...Not. NT

[JonQ]

6. Nope

not our problem. Let the UN handle it.

[Odin2005]

58. The UN can't handle it because of Russia's veto power.. n/t.

[tama]

66. Let UN handle Israel-Palestine... n/t

[JonQ]

106. Well it's still

not our problem.

[The Croquist]

110. I don't want the US involved in this either

I think the Russians are the aggressors but I'm not willing to go to war over it.

[tanyev]

7. Dubya was a fighter pilot. They can have him.

[AndyTiedye]

12. They Can Send McAin't Too.

Isn't he supposed to be some kind of "war hero" or something?

[jwirr]

21. With him and *ss as their air force they had better have a big budget

for new planes. As to helping them - if they were indeed the aggressors they are on their own.

[NM Independent]

8. Hey Georgia...

Fuck right off, okay?

Don't get yourself into situations like this and you won't be begging for help. I hope the Russians set you straight.

[LeftishBrit]

45. Wow

I agree that American involvement, or anything done without UN agreement, would do much more harm than good. But 'I hope the Russians set you straight' - do you mean by killing lots of Georgians.

Sometimes I can't believe how warlike a board designed for liberals can sound.

And let me repeat: I do NOT support any American, or other unilateral, intervention, on either side at this stage.

[tama]

68. Honest question

Did you support Clinton-Dem war against Serbia? If you did, what exactly is different this time and why shouldn't US support Ossetian independence?

[LeftishBrit]

69. Yes. I did. Differences: (1) the scale of violence, which then amounted to genocide.

(2) That wasn't just Clinton's/ USA intervention; it was NATO's intervention.

It is only in truly extreme cases that outside military intervention, especially unilateral intervention, would do less harm than the existing situation: examples: Bosnia; Rwanda; Darfur. I don't think *at this stage* the point has been reached here.

I have seen it pointed out that relying on the UN wouldn't work because of Russia's veto. I hadn't thought of that when I made my last post, but I still think it's better not to have America rush in unilaterally. Also, I wouldn't trust Bush not to escalate matters uncontrollably and set off WW3.

[tama]

70. One more question

Have you read what Chomsky has written about Kosovo, the media manipulation about "genocide" and NATO's actions that only worsened the situation of the claimed "genocide"? Or that the main cause for Kosovo war was, according to Chomsky's analysis, not peace in Kosovo but profoundly cynical military credibility of NATO and raison d'etre for NATO?

Do you have room for such doubt that just as the majority was misleaded by Western propaganda to support military involvement in the clash between KLA terrorists and Serbian governement, the majority was mislead by Western propaganda in Iraq - and now in Iran? And that even you may have been victim of that propaganda, with hardly any relation to the real situation on the ground in Kosovo?

As for me, I can admit having been badly mislead by Western propaganda re Kosovo, and came to realize I'd been had only after reading what meticulous study by mr. Chomsky said on the subject.

[paparush]

9. Bush - I call on all nations to um..whatever..watch this drive!

[brooklynite]

10. "Your crisis is very important to us..."

"Please leave a message and we'll get back to you after the Olympics."

[Ganja Ninja]

11. HA! Wish in one hand and shit in the other.

See which one fills up first.

[jeff30997]

15. Is there oil in Georgia ?

If not then Mikheil Saakashvili can go fuck himself.

[Zynx]

24. I don't believe so though I think at one point there was.

[Purveyor]

26. `Energy Corridor'

This clip from a Bloomberg article:

Georgia is a key link in a U.S.-backed ``southern energy corridor'' that links the Caspian Sea region with world markets, bypassing Russia, the world's biggest energy producer. Two pipelines pass through the country linking Azerbaijan and Turkey.

The BP Plc-led Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline, which has been closed since Aug. 5 due to an explosion in Turkey, runs about 100 kilometers south of the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aWB...

[wordpix2]

42. "key oil and gas routes go through Georgia"

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/russian-tanks-ent...

snip:

Energy corridor

Georgia, which has access to the Black Sea and is roughly the size of South Carolina, is strategically located between Asia and Europe. It shares borders with Armenia, Azerbaijan, Russia and Turkey. Georgia regained its independence from the Soviet Union in 1991. It has a population of 4.4 million.

Key oil and gas routes go through Georgia. The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline runs from Azerbaijan through Georgia and Turkey to Ceyhan on the Turkish Mediterranean coast.

The South Caucasus Pipeline transports natural gas from the Shah Deniz field in the Azerbaijan sector of the Caspian Sea, through Georgia and on to the Georgia-Turkey border.

[BeHereNow]

130. To add to your most relevant post- The players BEHIND the curtains in the region

THIS is what most people on this thread are completely ignorant of.

This cast of players says it all.
The men behind the curtain are some of the most powerful
on the world stage- the ones running the show here and there.

http://www.usacc.org/content.php?type=page&id=2&chi=5&p...

I think this answers the question as to what is really going on.

BHN

[HCE SuiGeneris]

159. From your link...

Dick Cheney
Vice President of the United States of America

Richard Armitage
Deputy Secretary of State

Richard Moncrief
Chairman, Moncrief Oil International

Richard Perle
American Enterprize Institute, former Assistant Secretary of Defense



All I can add is that there are way too many dicks involved. This list is like a who's who of corrupt, murderous scumbags.

[no_hypocrisy]

16. WH: We'll get back to you . . . after the Olympics.

[tuckessee]

19. No way the US is taking on an opponent that can fight.

After whipping the likes of Grenada, Panama, and sanction weakened Iraq the US military would fold up like a cheap suit before a worthy opponent.

Or they will resort to worldwide all out thermonuclear war at the first hint of a battlefield setback.

[bdab1973]

55. I disagree...

I'm not advocating we get involved in yet another foreign issue, but I don't agree with your assessment that the US military would "fold up like a cheap suit". Russian doctrine is heavy on centralization of command, rigid thought processes, and a lack of initiative on the part of field-level commanders. Some of their equipment matches ours, but most of it lags behind. The primary thing Russia would have going for it would be numbers, and that's about it. Oh, and the fact that US citizens can't stomach losing anyone...Russia routinely sends kids into a fight as simple cannon fodder, loses several thousand of them, and their population shrugs their shoulders and considers it the price of war. It's normal for them...then again, anything in Russia is difficult, and they are used to that.

In an all out war, it would be a slug-fest. But in a regional conflict, if the US had the political resolve and support, it would shut down any Russian operation.

[The Croquist]

112. From memory Iraq had the 4th largest army in the world in 1991

Complete with thousands of tanks and hundreds of Soviet and French planes. The US took them on. Not only that but the Iraqi army, unlike the US army, had been proven in battle for years against the Iranians. Not to mention the elite "Republican Guard".

[tuckessee]

119. Know your history.

The US bombed Iraq.

Then the US tricked the Iraqis into thinking they could pull their forces out of Kuwait under a battlefield truce then ambushed them while they were retreating.

See Seymour Hersh's article on the matter.

You didn't take on and defeat the Iraqi Army in open battle.

[Pavulon]

123. Bullshit

i eat dinner with the man who ran ground forces in that war. We used an oob that was defined before the first bomb dropped.

Iraq lost many battles involving mechanized units with no or minimal air support.

We killed tens of thousands of soldiers at a time with mlrs and 155 shelling. Air power is great but when you want to lay waste to a grid on a map combined artillery is how that is done.

Hersh is a joke, read Jane's defense. Those guys died in military vehicles and with weapons in hand.

Dont kid yourself, we dont do hearts and minds. We do kill large concentrations of forces. We spent trillions to destroy the USSR on a european battlefield.

[tuckessee]

147. So Seymour Hersh is lying? n/t

[Pavulon]

124. Name a "worthy" opponent?

[Dead_Parrot]

138. A bunch of untrained Iraqi patriots?

[tuckessee]

146. North Korea, Iran, Russia,

Countries like that.

The USA would resort to some form of NBC warfare because it won't be willing to pay the price in KIA's that it would take to subdue them conventionally.

Heck, I wouldn't surpised if the first time you lose a measely carrier you'll go nuclear.

[indio55555]

22. umm... president Mikheil

You planned this whole sh%t from the start.... waited for the Olympics to start so there's no leaders to do anything about this little incursion of yours. Now by killing Russian diplomats you ticked Russia off and now you are asking for help??? Hope you get your 70 virgins or whatever....


Then again Georgia is our 3rd largest ally in Iraq with their 2,000 units. Should we help?

[951-Riverside]

25. The Georgian government is out of control

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MThThdEmswU (Tbilisi, Georgia Police Enforce Martial Law (2007))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdTS1w1-9DI (Georgia Police storm opposition TV station in Tbilisi)

[bemildred]

28. Georgia says it has lost sections of S.Ossetia capital

TBILISI (AFP) — Georgia has lost control of parts of the South Ossetian rebel capital of Tskhinvali amid Russian bombardment, a spokesman for Georgia's interior ministry said, after earlier claiming control of the city.

"Russian armed forces are bombarding Tskhinvali," the spokesman, Shota Utiashvili, told AFP in Tbilisi. "We have lost control over some parts of the city."

South Ossetian separatist authorities said Russian military forces had reached the northern outskirts of Tskhinvali, and that a "turning point" was imminent.

"Russian armoured vehicles have come to the northern outskirts of Tskhinvali," they said on their website. "According to witnesses, the battle for the capital of the republic is about to reach a turning point."

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jUWzasCx3VjfE7JmZAT...

[951-Riverside]

30. Russian deaths will not be tolerated - Medvedev

"It is my duty as president of the Russian Federation to protect the lives and dignity of Russian citizens, wherever they may be," Medvedev said on Friday.

Marat Kulakhmetov, Commander of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone, echoed reports of intensifying Georgian artillery fire aimed at Russian peacekeeping positions.

Yuri Popov, Russia's Co-Chairman of the Joint Control Commission, who is in the conflict zone, earlier told the Itar-Tass news agency, "The headquarters of the peacekeeping forces have been partially destroyed."

The Georgian military claims it has downed a Russian fighter jet over South Ossetia, but the Russian Foreign Ministry on Friday morning denied it had lost any aircraft in the region.

*snip*

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, currently on a visit to Beijing for the start of the Olympics, warned that Georgia's actions would meet a "response."

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28666

[951-Riverside]

32. Georgian troops retreat from S. Osettian capital

Peacekeepers say the city is in ruins. South Ossetia is calling Georgia's attacks ‘genocide’ and ‘ethnic purges’.

According to the president of the self-proclaimed republic, Eduard Kokoity, hundreds of civilians have been killed. He also said the South Ossetian forces are pushing Georgian troops out of the capital.

Georgia launched a major military offensive against South Ossetia on Friday in a bid to regain control of its breakaway province. Heavy artillery pounded the capital Tskhinvali for hours, reportedly reducing much of the city to rubble.

South Ossetia then appealed to Moscow for help.

More than 10 Russian peacekeepers have been killed and about 30 wounded in clashes. Russia’s Defence Ministry said.

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28668

[bemildred]

29. FACTBOX-How Russian and Georgian forces stack up

Aug 8 – Below are details of how Georgian and Russian armed forces compare.

RUSSIA GEORGIA

Army 395,000{PI:84} 32,000{PI:84}{PI:84}

Main Battle Tanks 23,000 128

Armoured Personnel Carriers 9,900 44

Artillery pieces 26,000 109

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20080808-0854-...

[bemildred]

31. Abkhazian army units advance to arms limitation zone with Georgia

SUKHUMI, August 8 (Itar-Tass) - An unspecified number of Abkhazian army units advanced Friday to the border of the arms limitation zone with Georgia, in accordance with the decision by the republic’s Security Council, which met in emergency session at 02:00, Moscow time, in Sukhumi, spokesman for the Abkhazian president Kristian Bzhaniya told Itar-Tass.

Bzhaniya said high combat readiness has not yet been announced in Abkhazian armed forces.

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=1293352...

[bemildred]

33. 'Hundreds dead' as Russia enters Georgia conflict

---

South Ossetia's rebel leader Eduard Kokoity said there were "hundreds of dead civilians" in the main town, Tskhinvali, Russia's Interfax news agency quoted him as saying.

A senior Russian military commander said parts of Russia's 58th army were approaching the rebel capital, where fighting raged between Russian-backed separatists and Georgian forces sent in on Friday to seize it.

A senior Georgian security official said Russian jets had bombed the Vaziani military air base outside the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, and President Mikheil Saakashvili said 150 Russian tanks, armoured personnel carriers and other vehicles had entered South Ossetia from neighbouring Russia.

"Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory," Saakashvili told CNN, calling on Washington to help.

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-08-08-hundreds-dead-as...

[MilesColtrane]

34. Bush has issued a statement saying that the U.S. will be sending arms and advisors...

...because the invasion "threatens the delicate balance of power in the SEC."

[bemildred]

37. Boy, I'm sure glad I'm not part of that "mission".

Talk about a shit-sandwich.

[Bluerthanblue]

85. oh god- we are really

headed for some deep doo-doo.

Not good, not good at all.

[Posteritatis]

92. Where'd you catch this? (nt)

[MilesColtrane]

104. The SEC = the Southeastern Conference

It's a collegiate athletic conference of which the University of Georgia is a member.

That post was my jab at Bush, who is stupid enough to think that the only Georgia in the world is a state in the south of the U.S., and who can't wait to get back to doing nothing but watching college football all day.

[bemildred]

35. Russia 'suppressed' Georgia fire

Moscow - Russian soldiers now in the South Ossetian capital say their artillery has begun firing at Georgian forces - the first confirmed engagement between the two countries' troops, Russian agencies reported.

"Georgian troop positions firing on Tskhinvali and peacekeepers were suppressed by artillery fire and tank units of the 58th Army, which are outside the capital of South Ossetia," Russian army Colonel Igor Konashenkov, television channel Vesti-24 quoted him as saying.

Russian commanders said they would respond firmly to any Georgian attempts to open fire, Russian agencies reported.

"In future, any shooting in the zone of Russian peacekeepers will be firmly blocked," Konashenkov said. - Reuters

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_...

[bemildred]

36. More than 1,000 dead so far in Russia-Georgia conflict

MEGVREKISI, Georgia - Russian armoured vehicles have entered the northern edges of the capital of the breakaway Georgian region of South Ossetia, the separatists' press service reported on its website on Friday.

"Russian armoured vehicles have entered the northern suburbs of Tskhinvali," the website cominf.org reported, adding that Georgian troops had started to retreat.

Moscow said its troops were responding to a Georgian assault to re-take the breakaway region, and Georgia's pro-Western President Mikheil Saakashvili said the two countries were at war.

Russia would cut air links with Georgia from midnight on Friday, the Russian Transport Ministry said.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=b...

[LeftishBrit]

46. This is really tragic.

[tekisui]

51. 1400 reported dead now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/south-os...

[951-Riverside]

38. English speaking Russian news stream

http://streaming.visionip.tv/Russia_Today

[bemildred]

39. McCain Calls for Russia to Pull Out of Georgia

DES MOINES -- Sen. John McCain called on Russia to immediately withdraw its military forces from the republic of Georgia and said the U.S should request a meeting of the United Nations Security Council in the wake of the escalating violence between the two countries.

"Russia should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all forces from sovereign Georgian territory. What is most critical now is to avoid further confrontation between Russian and Georgian military forces," McCain said.

The Republican nominee made an impromptu statement on the situation on the airport tarmac in Des Moines before heading to the Iowa State Fair for an afternoon of campaigning.

His full statement is below:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/08/08/m...

[wordpix2]

43. do not follow that man off the cliff!

[ohio2007]

67. What did Barak say aout it ?, I can't find anything.

must be on vacation .....


not good imo

[chatnoir]

151. From Reuters ...

Obama, on vacation in Hawaii, said he had also spoken to Saakashvili and U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

<snip>

Obama called for direct talks among all sides and said the United States, the U.N. Security Council and other parties should try to help bring about a peaceful resolution.

"I condemn Russia's aggressive actions and reiterate my call for an immediate ceasefire," Obama said in a statement.

"Russia must stop its bombing campaign, cease flights of Russian aircraft in Georgian airspace, and withdraw its ground forces from Georgia."

<snip>

Obama has stepped up his criticism of Russia since the crisis started. He called for an international peacekeeping force and said Russia could not be a neutral mediator for political disputes over South Ossetia and Abkhazia -- both pro-Russian separatist regions backed by Moscow.

"The current escalation of military conflict resulted in part from the lack of a neutral and effective peacekeeping force operating under an appropriate UN mandate," Obama said. "Russia cannot play a constructive role as peacekeeper."

http://www.reuters.com/article/europeCrisis/idUSN095042...

[dipsydoodle]

44. Please notice

that he is asking help from an administration which also tampered with an election.

[SidneyCarton]

47. You have to be freakin kidding me.

Can he not read the writing on the wall? He's screwed. The only thing he could be banking on is that * is stupid and crazy enough to do it. Not that he'd be totally crazy...


Oh shit, please tell me we're not doing this...

[Taverner]

49. This ain't our fight. We should stay out.

[skoalyman]

50. it would about like b(#(#((@ to be crazy enough to do it

then we'd have russian troops storming out beach unless he finds the nuclear football they hid

[wordpix2]

54. are you kidding? with "key oil and gas routes through Georgia," do you think BushCo will be hands

off? No way.

[Vinca]

60. Time to draft the College Republicans then. nt

[tama]

72. In realm of Real Politics

What can BushCo or NATO do? BushCo allready engaged in couple of lost wars cannot do zit against a nucular power except whine and most NATO countries being totally dependent on Russian oil and natural gass - and Kosovo crime against UN Charter on their consciousness - cannot even seriously whine. Such is the current balance of power and Shakasvili is a total idiot for misreading the situation.

Georgians are not Finns and this is not the Winter War, no resemblance what so ever.

[pampango]

118. Putin (I mean Medvedev) certainly isn't being hands off.

Russia bombed the port city where the pipeline terminates and is outside of South Ossetia.

"On Aug. 8, 2008, the Georgian government said: "This evening, Russia completely devastated the port of Poti on the Black Sea, which is a key port for the transportation of energy sources from the Caspian Sea and is close to the Baku-Supsa pipeline and the Supsa oil terminal."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku-Supsa_Pipeline

That said there is nothing the US can do. Russia will conquer South Ossetia in spite of international hand wringing. There will be many statements and stern letters from the US, UN, NATO, etc, but the reality on the ground will not change.

The only real question is whether Russia stops with South Ossetia or goes on to take the rest of Georgia and reintegrate it into Russia.

[underpants]

61. Well unless he plans on sending the Arkansas militia.....

we don't have many troop to send over there.

This is EXACTLY the type of situation everyone has been talking about in regards to "stretching it too thin"

[BeHereNow]

131. Ah, but you see it is-

Well not OUR fight as US citizens, but rather
the fight of the people who have high jacked our country-
These guys: the powers that be

http://www.usacc.org/content.php?type=page&id=2&chi=5&p...

BHN

[Robeson]

52. Video here...

... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2008/aug/08/georg...

[bamacrat]

62. Well I guess that means war with Russia, Reagan would be proud.

[Lasher]

111. I'm sure Condi is delighted. n/t

[Dover]

71. It's all about the pipelines through Georgia - Russian Plan vs. U.S. Plan for Oil/Gas

...The crisis, the first to confront President Dmitry Medvedev since he took office in May, looked close to spiraling into full-blown war in a region emerging as a key energy transit route, and where Russia and the West are vying for influence.

..snip..


Saakashvili, who wants to take his small Caucasus nation into NATO, has made it a priority to win back control of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another rebel region on the Black Sea.

The issue has bedeviled Georgia's relations with Russia, which is angered by Tbilisi's moves towards the Western fold and its pursuit of NATO membership.


http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/600/42/369683.htm

[tama]

74. Also

The militarily shortest and easiest route to Tehran is through Georgia and Adzerbaidzan - but only with South-Ossetia, Georgia's only link to Black Sea, in fold. With-out connection to Black sea (and Mediterranean and Atlantic Ocean) the route is militarily near worthless.

[Dover]

77. Shortest for whom?

The U.S. is in Iraq, Afghanistan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar....pretty much have Iran surrounded.

Most of those countries are also critical to oil/gas routes...including Adzerbaidzan.





Russia's Capture of Central Asian Energy
http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2007/05/russias_capture_...

[tama]

80. Geopolitically

and militarily shortest route for US panzer divisions to Tehran is not from Iraq or Afganistan (awfully long way and many mountains to cross) but from Adzerbaidzan. If it could ship panzer divisions via Georgia (proper) to Adzerbaidzan.

OK, if it had extra panzer divisions to ship, needs also to be added...

[Dead_Parrot]

78. You need a map

Georgia has coastline on the Black and Caspian seas: South Ossetia is land-locked.

[tama]

79. Correction

To get access to Black Sea Georgia would need to invade also (semi-)independent state of Abkhasia. Which Georgia claims is part of "Georgia Proper" just like South-Ossetia.

Guess we both need a map...

[Dead_Parrot]

82. Almost...

Abkhazia is on the coast (like Adjara) but Georgia 'proper' has coast between the two, including the port of Poti.

You're right I need to look at a map though - don't why I mentioned the Caspian.

[tama]

87. Very confusing

these maps. Well live and learn, I learned from the news that Russia bombed Poti, so far being under the impression that the 'less than proper' had no port on the Black sea...

[Dead_Parrot]

90. It's also a big naval base

And I'm under no illusion Russia is restricting activities to their own soil and South Ossetia.

The whole region is a nightmare, geopolitically.

[rockymountaindem]

86. I think you're confusing Ossetia and Abkhazia n/t

[tama]

89. Yup, I did. And then some... n/t

[lovuian]

73. we only help those with Oil and who are up against someone

who is weaponless then we will help you

[Bluerthanblue]

83. there is oil- and we've been training the Georgian soldiers-

this mess bothers me more than I can say.

Maybe this is something that the Republicans have been counting on all along.

I have a very bad feeling about this- McCain's ace in the hole?

[Endangered Specie]

81. Someone better make sure Bush knows that its the COUNTRY of Georgia

hes talking too...

[Posteritatis]

91. Nah. If he thinks it's the state and pulls some troops home

the US would at least have enough National Guard around to possibly help when the next city gets washed into a major body of water.

[knitter4democracy]

93. Chort. This is bad.

Saakashvili's not the greatest leader in the world, and the Russians are itching for a fight. This is all just going to end really badly.

[LeftishBrit]

137. I fear you've summed it up.

[gordianot]

94. There goes the Bush myth of a new Europe.

They will find out why the United States fights wars "pure profit".

[bemildred]

95. Conflict spreads outside S Ossetia

Georgia's president is set to declare a state of martial law as the fighting in the south Caucasus appeared to have spread beyond the breakaway region of South Ossetia.

Georgian officials said that Russian jets had launched attacks inside Georgia on Friday, as heavy fighting continued on the ground around the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali.

"Russian air forces have bombed towns in Georgia, the port of Poti on the Black Sea, the town of Senaki ... the Russian air assault ranges from the Black Sea coast in the west to the Azerbaijani border," Giorgi Badrize, acting Georgian ambassador to the UK, told Al Jazeera.

"If this is not an all out war what is?" he asked.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/200888...

[Trillo]

96. It's a Global Corporatist World. Price of Oil is falling.

Quick, time to start another war. That should ratchet up prices....

Undoubtedly oversimplistic... still gotta wonder.