Man opens fire inside Knoxville church; at least six people shot

[brooklynite]

Source: WBIR

Multiple people have suffered gunshot wounds in what witnesses describe as a mass shooting inside a church in West Knoxville Sunday morning.

The shootings happened at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church on Kingston Pike.

A witness who spoke to 10 News said police had arrived and one person was being detained at the scene.

A children's production of "Annie" was taking place as part of the normal Sunday service at the time of the shooting, the witness, who is a member of the church, said. The gunman walked into a packed sanctuary and opened fire.

Read more: http://www.wbir.com/news/breaking/story.aspx?storyid=61322&catid=29

[Pavulon]

1. How terrible. Prayers for the victims.

we are in need of a mental health overhaul in this country.

[Ian David]

2. What a stupid tragedy. n/t

[Taverner]

90. This sums it up perfectly

Four words

And yet, it describes this as it was

A Stupid Tragedy

A beacon of hope, deep in Freeper Country

Hit by one of its own

Hateful words exchanged

Dead

People Dead

Fathers, mothers

This shouldn't happen

This should not happen.

[stray cat]

3. Its amazing and scary the damage one person can do and it only takes one

[Pavulon]

4. I would bet this could have been prevented

with access to medical care for mental illness.

[stray cat]

7. Maybe - but the person has to be willing to go and cooperate which seems to be a sticky point.

The same could be said for child molesters -

Sadly many people who need help instead assume everyone else is the problem and never see themselves as in need of counseling. The only thing to do then is over-ride their civil liberties and make them get help.

[Pavulon]

9. True

but most of these spree people have some underlying issue and some type of outreach when the show signs of being off balance is better than nothing.

Nothing is the standard, or a 72 hour hold and no follow up.

[RC]

12. You just described your Run-Of-The-Mill bu$h supporter also.

To say nothing of the criminal bu$h administration itself...

[Vidar]

13. Good point. Were was K-Karl?

[pipoman]

79. In Iowa apparently..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3411668

[Pavulon]

14. Involuntary commitment

is a reasonable option where a person presents a clear threat to the public. This has huge civil rights impacts but in the most extreme cases could prevent these actions where people are obviously dangerous.

Not a solution but some method to encourage a person to get care. Right now there is no system in place at all.

We are reactive now.

[jwirr]

15. There are legal means for getting people help when they need it

but it is usually only family that can do it. I have been part of some of these hearings and they do work IF anyone cares enough to take action.

[yardwork]

30. True, but a better mental health care system might have helped people close to the shooter.

When I read about these "random" shootings I'm always struck by how many of the family and friends of the shooters are troubled as well. They've often been raised in dysfunctional families, had friends who were deeply troubled, etc. There was no safety net for any of them, and finally one of them goes completely off the deep end and ends up shooting people.

If we had universal access to mental and medical health care in this country, a lot of these tragedies would never occur. Either the shooters themselves or their caregivers would have gotten help long before anything terrible happened.

[Benhurst]

8. We're The World's Only Superpower. Maintaining that status is so

costly we can't afford to provide mental health care. Or decent health care. Or an up to date infrastructure. Or ... .

[Duppers]

39. Good point, BUT is bigotry specifically treated?

Btw, I've attended a wedding in this church and have friends in K'patch who go there.

Fr a google news search:
Several shot, 1 dies at gay-friendly Tennessee Valley Unitarian ...
Metro Weekly - 18 minutes ago

[Pavulon]

41. We all have

something in the back of our heads, some prejudice, old or new. Some dislike for something or some group. We are at least aware of the concept of prejudice.

Dealing with that like rational people, confronting it, or doing what it takes to put that to rest is what healthy people do.

However an example of disliking Indian nationals who one perceives as taking jobs is far from violent murder.

Pick you example, the process that takes a person from feeling uncomfortable with homosexuality or whatever to violence it the problem.

that spark is the root cause.

[Benhurst]

5. As if having to sit through "Annie" weren't bad enough in itself.

[haele]

6. The chilling part is that the suspect apparently had no connection to the church -

First thing I thought was a "God Warrior" who wants to get brownie points with his ghod by punishing "the wrong type of Christian".
There's usually some sort of logic involved in selection of prey, even when it's apparently a random shooting. If it's not spousal or personal estrangement with someone in that church, or a soft target opportunity when wanting to commit general mayhem, it's a personal belief system issue.
There's lots of hate-based conservitive evangelical types around here who consider UU or UCC members blasphemers, and blasphemers are usually one step below gays in their "bound for eternal damnation" scale. The rhetoric to punish the wicked as some sort of final atonement for the sins plaguing America is increasing, and there's a lot of fearful people out there who buy into that.
And it's more difficult to target gays in a community where closeting is the norm.

Haele

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LanternWaste]

11. To me, the most chilling aspect is the fact that it happened

To me, the most chilling aspect is the fact that it happened-- regardless of what organization (if any) the perpetrator or his victims were associated with.

[Nevernose]

22. Some of the comments were pretty angering

There were a couple of comments on a Knoxville TV website that were pretty much "they got what they deserved." The comments were taken down pretty quickly, though.

A good third of my UU church ARE gay. What level on the totem pole are gay blasphemers? (insert morbid chuckle)

UUs are so misunderstood anyway. The poll that came out last year said that, nationally, 75% of UUs identified themselves as Christian. They're just open and accepting, so different kinds of Christians come as well as people of any other religion, or no religion at all. There's also that emphasis on actually DOING something to make the world a better place, instead of just praying and hoping for the best. At my church, for instance, I'm one of many atheists, and many of us are Republicans, yet as shocking as this all is, I bet it doesn't surprise many UUs.

I'll bet many of us are used to the occasional reactions of newcomers and strangers. "What?!? You won't TELL me what to believe? I have to make up my own mind? YOU'RE ALL GOING TO HELL!"

[Duppers]

46. my friends who attend this Knoxville UU 'church' are atheists!

I think the Knoxville community in general is more tolerant of us 'misguided' atheists than they are of gays.
My extended family lives in that area, btw.

[Irreverend IX]

26. When I read that it was during a production of "Annie"...

I kind of wondered whether the shooter was a parent who was pissed that his daughter got passed over for the lead role or something.

[intheflow]

66. That was my first thought, as well.

There have been a fair number of seemingly random shootings at UU churches over the years, not to mention church bombings and fires by nuts who can't stand that UUs welcome GLBTQs, work for racial equality, and support reproductive choice. :(

[Faygo Kid]

16. Update: One dead, five critical.

How awful. Words are inadequate.

[Pavulon]

17. Reports he used a shotgun

they tend to be tremendously lethal, inflicting wounds that may kill later, even if the person survives the initial trauma.

Hopefully no one else will die. It is odd, these spree people usually kill themselves.

Very sad.

[High Plains]

18. Ah, the American social contract at work:

Give us all the guns we want and we'll accept an annual body count in the thousands. Cool.

[Pavulon]

19. Guns, knife, tatp you make at home.

lots of ways to cause a mass casualty..

The problem is why. This is an American thing. It does not happen in countries that have similar access to weapons.

Canada for example or Switzerland do not have these events.

This is , imho, a mental health problem.

[yardwork]

31. Canada and Switzerland have much better health care systems.

[DBoon]

78. Canada and Switzerland have different social contracts

Ones that don't ask people to give up shelter, food and medical care in return for the right to use lethal weapons to even out any perceived social slight

[yardwork]

80. Exactly.

[benEzra]

99. The Swiss have access to the same guns we do, and some we don't. (n/t)

[primavera]

138. The Swiss have universal conscription

So everyone who owns a gun has undergone rigorous, formal, military training on its safe usage. Here, gun ownership is a right, not a priviledge, so any idiot can obtain any gun they like without having to demonstrate to anyone's satisfaction that they are able to use one safely.

[Hayduke Lives]

105. I'm with Mike Moore on this paradox

It's fear that explains the difference between the US and Canada. They have more guns per capita. But we have Free Republic.

[LanternWaste]

27. I certainly don't accept it.

"...guns we want and we'll accept an annual body count in the thousands"

I certainly don't accept it, nor is part or parcel of any social contract I'm involved in.

However, I do sometimes perceive a crass and unbending dogmatism: that many, many people will always use these tragedies to further their own agendas and beliefs-- even on DU. I find that most unfortunate also.

[michreject]

34. Except that guns are illegal in Tn. churches

How did that work out?

[benEzra]

75. "Oh, goodie, I can bash gun owners again."

Please, can we have at least a pretense of sympathy before turning this into another "let's all bash gun owners" thread?

And this loser used a shotgun (probably 12 gauge/.729 caliber). Those are perfectly legal in most of Europe, yet over there this type of incident isn't as common. Perhaps because in those places, the media are less likely to glorify the murderer as the "poor misunderstood antihero" and thereby encourage future, similar acts by others, I suspect.

Most U.S. mass shooters are inspired by media glorification of prior mass shooters. "Hey, I could have my name in lights like that too" can be a powerful motivator to the unhinged, I suspect.

[primavera]

139. "Oh, goodie, I can glorify guns again."

Remarkable, isn't it, how reliably denizens of the gungeon can be expected to descend upon these threads, like vultures drawn to carrion, not to offer their sympathies to yet another group of victims of guns, but to tout the virtues of guns and to remind everyone that the victims could also have been killed by someone armed with a ream of paper inflicting a million vicious paper cuts.

Please, can we have at least a pretense of sympathy before we go all Charlton Heston?

[Nay]

20. Jeez Louise. My best friend goes to the OTHER UU church there in

Knoxville, and I just got off the phone with her. I called her because I know that she occasionally visits that church (many members of both churches know each other well) and obviously, I wanted to see if she and her family were all right. Both churches had kids singing in the Annie thing, and parents from both churches were there watching.

They don't know much more than the news story, but she did say that the word is that the shooter was after one specific person in the congregation, and was not shooting ppl at random.

Ah, Shit, I now see the update says that one had died and 5 are critical. Shit.

[quidam56]

21. People don't treat people right

We seek professional, educated health care providers yet are besmirched and allowed to stew, the final straw can do things to you and no one cares.

www.wisecountyissues.com

[Nevernose]

23. Recent complaints over a sign welcoming gays:

From a church member posting on this forum:
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/jul/27/church-shooting-leaves-several-injured/

Of course, we don't have all the details yet, we don't know who did it or why, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if some meth-smoking bigot snapped and decided to kill some gays for Jesus.

[Duppers]

47. Bingo! nt

err - wait a minute....if Jesus wanted 'em dead, he could have killed 'em himself. Right? :sarcasm:
Logic escapes these idiots. But that statement is redundant.

[spoony]

115. I'd like to hear your reaction

to more recent revelations about the killer. Assumptions make for such high falls.

[yardwork]

125. You mean the fact that the killer left behind a letter expressing hatred for gays and liberals?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3412232

[spoony]

131. I was, of course, referring to

the poster's last line.

But the guy certainly is an all-around hateful nutter, isn't he?

[yardwork]

134. You mean the neighbor's statement that he considered himself a Confederate of the Old South?

[NoodleyAppendage]

24. Horrible. But, guaranteed that the church members will be sold this tragedy was "God's Will."

Random tragedy is what believers choose "God" to insulate themselves from, so when something like this happens it is an assault not only on their person but on their belief system.

J

[Nay]

25. Hoo-whee, Noodley, you obviously aren't familiar with UU churches.

Many UUers are atheists and agnostics, just as a start. None of us are eaten up with religion, any religion. Most UUers forge their own individual belief system through study and discussion while in the church--there is no "dogma" to speak of. Go to a UU church and see.

[LanternWaste]

28. It may also be suggested to them

It may also be suggested to them that the act was the will and the fault of one person alone.

For myself, I try not to presume what precise and relevant statements a person or an organization may or may not put forth, since many organizations and religions perceive dramatic and/or violent events quite differently from one another.

Additionally, presumptions like that (at least on my part) are usually little more than personal projections regarding how we may personally feel about the organization or religion in question.

Edited: clarity

[dysfunctional press]

29. more likely the gunman felt HE was carrying out his "god's will"...

unitarian universalists generally tend to be athiests.

[yardwork]

32. Unitarian Universalists do not "tend to be atheists." What a ridiculous thing to say.

Inform yourself about UU before you post.

[dysfunctional press]

35. all of the ones i know are.

maybe they draw a different crowd where you live...? :shrug:

[gatorboy]

43. I guess where I live too.

And where everyone else lives as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalists

My ex and her family were part of our local UU church. Sorry. No athiests there either.

[dysfunctional press]

44. i'm basing it on my personal experience.

i've known exactly 5 people who identified themselves as "unitarian universalists" and they were all athiests. according to wikipedia-

Concepts about deity are diverse among UUs. Some believe that there is no god (atheism); others believe in many gods (polytheism). Some believe that God is a metaphor for a transcendent reality. Some believe in a female god (goddess), a passive god (Deism), a Christian god, or a god manifested in nature or the universe, as revealed by science. Many UUs reject the idea of deities and instead speak of the "spirit of life" that binds all life on earth. Unitarian Universalists support each person's search for truth and meaning in concepts of spirituality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalists

so if there are No athiests in your local church, that would have been out of the ordinary as well.

[onenote]

85. so you make a statement generalizing about 500,000 UUs based on the five you know

I hope you realize how stupid that is.

[dysfunctional press]

119. i said that they "tend to be athiests" because it is in fact my personal experience

i didn't say that they all are atheists, so get a fucking grip. and in some congregations, many unitarian universalists DO tend to be atheists. the smart ones, anyway.

[onenote]

126. Actually, the one's you have met tend to be atheists.

That is no basis for generalizing about the other 495,995 UUs.

As for getting a grip, denigrating people who believe in God (or some divine power) as not being "smart" makes you more similar to the shooter in the Kentucky than you probably think you are.

[dysfunctional press]

128. ...

:eyes:

if you feel that the words "tend to be athiests" denigrates the other 495,995 unitarians(many of whom tend to be atheist)...you might want to have your dr. prescribe some chill pills.

[onenote]

137. reading comprehension not your strong suit

The line that denigrates many of the 495,995 UUs the poster I was responding to hadn't met was the line that suggests that the "smart ones" are atheists.

I suggest you take some brain pills.

[LanternWaste]

127. Quite the clever, back-handed compliment.

"...the smart ones, anyway."

Quite the clever, back-handed compliment... :eyes:

[dysfunctional press]

129. i can't take credit for the truth.

but i hear it's out there.

[LanternWaste]

135. But you can take credit for

"i can't take credit for the truth."

But you can take credit for both the class and the tolerance you advertise...

I hear it's out there, too.

[dysfunctional press]

136. yes, i forgot about theists having cornered the market on "class and tolerance" throughout history.

from constantine, to the inquisition, and the salem witch trials, to fred phelps...the 'godly' among us have always showed us the way and the light of their lord.

:eyes:

[Duppers]

48. these 'churches' are highly individualist

I cannot stand the ones in my current area, whereas the one in Knoxville takes a logical, liberal pov on all 'religious' issues.

on edit: I atheistic, btw.

[Odin2005]

67. I'm a UU and an Atheist.

That poster may have exaggerated somewhat, but there are plenty of us atheists and agnostics in UU congregations.

[Stuckinthebush]

70. Many are non-theists

Agnostic / atheist. There are some who are Buddhists and some who are neo-pagan. Very interesting mix in the UU church.

[rainbow4321]

51. The phrase "generally" doesn't apply to UUers

As a UUer I can tell you that no 2 attendees are alike...there can be athiests, Wiccans, Jews, Christians, and any other denomination sitting in a single pew at a UU church at any given service.

Please take time to learn about our beliefs before trying to tell others about us:


http://www.uua.org/

http://www.uua.org/news/newssubmissions/117154.shtml

Statement from the UUA president about the tragedy:


President, Unitarian Universalist Association

I am shocked and sorrowed by the terrible shootings in the sanctuary of the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church. My heart is heavy and my prayers are with our injured sisters and brothers in Knoxville. While many details of this tragedy remain unclear, our Association will do all we can to support Unitarian Universalists in Knoxville in the hard days to come.


A tragedy such as this makes us acutely conscious of the beauty and fragility of our lives and those of our loved ones. I am especially saddened by this intrusion of violence into a worship service involving children and youth. I know that many people, both in Knoxville and around the country, are struggling with shock and grief right now. I pray that those so affected will find strength and comfort.


Members of the Unitarian Universalist Trauma Response Ministry are on their way to Knoxville to offer additional ministry to the congregation as it grieves. And Unitarian Universalists around the world are sending love and prayers to the Tennessee Valley congregation to tell them they are not alone on this dark day

[dysfunctional press]

121. i'm really not interested in learning about unitarian 'beliefs'...

i had more than my fill of organized religion and theists LONG ago.

[fjc]

69. Even if true, so what.

[dysfunctional press]

120. so i don't think that many unitarians would view it as 'god's will'...

as the post i had responded to had implied.

[gatorboy]

42. Think before you type.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalists

[dysfunctional press]

45. i was going by personal experience...

all of the unitarians i've known have been athiests.

[rainbow4321]

53. (sigh) Please take time to educate yourself on UUers

http://www.uua.org/visitors/congregationallife/index.shtml

The day-to-day life of a congregation is the glue that holds the spiritual community together. Unitarian Universalism approaches the more "secular" aspects of congregational life with the same religious intent as its worship. Each congregation's religious education classes, community activities, special youth and young adult groups and activities, and even the building facilities committees are essential aspects of our spiritual work. We believe it is our deeds, not our creeds, that are most important.


http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml

Unitarian Universalism (UU) draws from many sources:

Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.
Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

[Island Blue]

59. UU's don't do "god's will".

We do reason. Many of the US founding fathers and mothers were Unitarians or Universalists. Surely you know that, right?

[JerseygirlCT]

72. This is a UU church... that's not likely to happen.

There will certainly be congregants who don't believe in God, for instance.

The UUs are about as inclusive a group as you're likely to find.

[yardwork]

33. It sounds like it was politically motivated.

Kemper said the gunman walked into the side of the sanctuary after firing one shot from a hallway.

She said the gunman was yelling “hateful things” and was wearing a red, white and blue T-shirt.

“He looked like bad guy.” Kemper said.

Steve Drevik, 41, described the gunman as a white man with long blond hair, in his 40s, with a thin build, about 6 feet tall, wearing jeans a now-bloodied T-shirt.

.....

Kemper tried to comfort a little boy whose mother had been shot in the head. She said there was a handprint of blood on the back of the boys’s shirt.

[Lorentz]

38. Charge the bastard with terrorism. That's what he is, after all.

No different than strapping a bomb to yourself and walking into the church -- except this guy is obviously a chicken-shit, since he didn't have the guts to take his own life.

[jbane]

117. Agree

If this guy had a middle eastern name or even looked like
he came from that part of the world his butt would be at
Gitmo getting waterboarded for freedom.

[JerseygirlCT]

36. This is awful.

So awful I can't even bring myself to make a joke about Annie. (Man, I loathe that show!)

It's really a terrible thing when people have to start feeling guarded and nervous at worship. Those poor people!

[Redstone]

37. Guns, guns, we need more GUNS in this country!

Redstone

[WriteDown]

40. You going to try to ban shotguns?

In Tennessee??? Hunting with a knife may prove to be VERY difficult.

[benEzra]

76. Right on schedule... (n/t)

[Trajan]

49. Unitarian Universalists ...

As an Atheist, I recognize the UU church is a true sanctuary for HUMAN BEINGS who seek comfort and understanding, from a humanistic viewpoint .....

Other atheists who condemn the UU are obviously unaware of their tenets and their open philosophy that embraces the humanity of all of mankind ....

This is simply heartbreaking ....

Has anyone died ? ....

Has the shooter been identified ? .... What was his motive ?

[gatorboy]

50. So far one person has been killed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/27/tennessee-church-shooting_n_115200.html

[rainbow4321]

52. UUA's president's statement on the tragedy

http://www.uua.org/news/newssubmissions/117154.shtml

Statement from Rev. William G. Sinkford, President, Unitarian Universalist Association

I am shocked and sorrowed by the terrible shootings in the sanctuary of the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church. My heart is heavy and my prayers are with our injured sisters and brothers in Knoxville. While many details of this tragedy remain unclear, our Association will do all we can to support Unitarian Universalists in Knoxville in the hard days to come.


A tragedy such as this makes us acutely conscious of the beauty and fragility of our lives and those of our loved ones. I am especially saddened by this intrusion of violence into a worship service involving children and youth. I know that many people, both in Knoxville and around the country, are struggling with shock and grief right now. I pray that those so affected will find strength and comfort.


Members of the Unitarian Universalist Trauma Response Ministry are on their way to Knoxville to offer additional ministry to the congregation as it grieves. And Unitarian Universalists around the world are sending love and prayers to the Tennessee Valley congregation to tell them they are not alone on this dark day

[gatorboy]

54. Same church shooter attacked: Church sponsors drop-in centers for gay teens

http://www.uuworld.org/news/articles/101000.shtml

Unitarian Universalist congregations in Tennessee, Utah, and Maryland affirm LGBTQ youth.
By Donald E. Skinner
3.3.08

The ministry that goes on at Spectrum Café at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, Tenn., on Saturday nights is as important as anything that happens on Sunday morning.

The same goes for OUTreach Resource Center in Ogden, Utah, a program of the Unitarian Universalist Church of Ogden, and the Rainbow Youth Alliance sponsored by the UU Church of Rockville, Maryland.

All three venues welcome high school–aged lesbian, bisexual, gay, transgender, and queer youth as well as youth who support them. All provide food, music, games, movies, and conversation.

David Massey is one of the coordinators of Spectrum Café, also known as “Spectrum Diversi-Tea and Coffee House,” which will begin its eighth year this spring. “We advertise it as a safe harbor for teens who identify as LBGTQ and their straight friends and allies, plus any other youth who are being harassed for religious beliefs, appearance, or abilities,” Massey said.

[philly_bob]

55. There's only a handful of progressive, tolerant religions in America ...

and Unitarians are among that handful.

It will be interesting to find out the motivation of the shooter.

[rainbow4321]

56. What I want to see is how the media portrays UU, also

You know half of them are going "U what??". Pretty much the same response **I** get from people when they ask what my "religion" is.

[Pavulon]

57. Picture at this link

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/jul/27/church-shooting-leaves-several-injured/
http://www.knoxnews.com/

[Stinky The Clown]

58. Before even reading your link, I **knew** the gunman had no connection to the church.

Just intuition, of course, but I just knew it.

[dtotire]

60. Gunman opens fire in Tennessee church, 1 killed

Source: WP




A church member who arrived moments after the shooting said the gunman fired three times and was tackled. Officials wouldn't say exactly how many people subdued the gunman.

"It was a large group and we are thankful for them for without it, this situation could have been even worse," Mayor Bill Haslam said.
There were about 200 people in the church at the time of the shooting watching a youth performance being put on by 25 children.

Police had cordoned off the church with yellow and red tape, and were taking statements and collecting video cameras from church members who were taping the performance.

The church's minister was on vacation in western North Carolina at the time of the shooting but returned Sunday afternoon.
"We've been touched by a horrible act of violence. We are in a process of healing and we ask everyone for your prayers," the Rev. Chris Buice said in a statement outside the church.

The Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church is a community that meets to worship and work together for social change, according to the church's Web site. Since the 1950's, the congregation has worked for desegregation, racial harmony, fair wages, women's rights and gay rights, according to the Web site. The congregation also has provided sanctuary for political refugees, fed the homeless and founded a chapter of the ACLU.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/27/AR2008072700748.html?hpid=moreheadlines



Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/27/AR2008072700748.html?

---

I bet we find the shooter was a Fundamentalist Christian

[movonne]

61. I think you are right....but then who else would have a grudge against

a liberal church...

[Ian David]

62. In fairness, fundies are not the ONLY ones who are crazy nutbags.

Liberals occasionally become mentally ill and kill people, too.

Don't forget-- Richard Nixon was a Quaker.

[mike_c]

64. in name only....

Please.

[safeinOhio]

63. My heart goes out

to all fellow UUs.

[Ian David]

65. The UUs and The UCC are the only churches I'll donate money to. n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

91. Shooter hated Christians according to the local news there.

[Odin2005]

68. OMG!!!

Let me guess, this guy is a right-wing asshole?

[benEzra]

71. Prayers sent. (n/t)

[RamboLiberal]

73. BREAKING NEWS: Second person dies in Tennessee church shooting

Per MSNBC Website.

What a shame that people can't even peacefully go to church these days.

[Pale Blue Dot]

74. The suspect in this morning's shooting has now been identified as Jim D. Adkisson of Knox County.

From the updated link at the website in the OP. There's also a picture of the guy there.

[Pale Blue Dot]

77. A neighbor speaks.

FWIW.

UPDATE 7/27/8 7:08 p.m.: KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (WVLT) -- A neighbor who says she has known church shooting suspect Jim D. Adkisson, 58, for a few years tells Volunteer TV's Stephen McLamb that Adkisson has a problem with religion that stems from a childhood of being forced to attend church by his parents.

The neighbor says Adkisson believes the Bible contradicts itself.

[Duppers]

81. noooes!

Why did this murdering fuck inflict his anger on the most liberal, progressive 'church' around?!!!

Ignorance, ignorance, ignorance....it's always ignorance, no matter the motive.

[yardwork]

82. I suspect that he'll turn out to be an extreme right-winger who didn't like gays.

[Pavulon]

84. Why make it political?

you may be very wrong

"Adkisson has a problem with religion that stems from a childhood of being forced to attend church by his parents."

[yardwork]

86. Wanna bet?

He was wearing a red white and blue t-shirt. Witnesses state that he was saying "hateful things." He shot a congregation of people known to be extremely progressive, openly welcoming to gay youth, founders of a local ACLU, and strongly anti-war.

[Pavulon]

88. The neighbor comment was odd, either way

it is a horrible thing. No matter his motivations, it is a horrible thing.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

93. Shooter hated christians according to the local news there.

Local headline: Neighbors: Accused shooter everyone's friend, hated Christianity

link http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/jul/27/neighbors-accused-shooter-everyones-friend-hated-c/

David

[yardwork]

94. That's according to one neighbor. If true, why shoot up a UU church?

UU churches welcome everyone, including non-Christians and non-believers. If it's true that he hated Christians and just chose a church at random, then it's very ironic that he chose this particular one.

I suspect that he didn't like the highly progressive political and social views of this particular church. I also fully expect that to be swept under the rug by the corporate-owned media. Nothing to see here. Move along.

[Pavulon]

96. Maybe he is stupid and a murdering piece of shit?(nt)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

100. Maybe he's not very smart.

He picked a prominent church close to the University of Tennessee campus. There are about 20 churches within 2 miles on the same road the UU church happens to be the first one on the right. Probably just random.

David

[slackmaster]

123. You are trying to force rationality on someone who acted in an obviously irrational manner

He was a nutball who shot up a bunch of innocent people.

[Divine Discontent]

114. pretty obvious... isn't it

occum's razor theory, it's the most likely situation based on the facts gathered, so it's almost definitely the case.

he clearly was a rabid right-wing loon who goes around screaming about the 'fags' and their enablers... terrifying that we all have ran into those types in our own lives, and they are out there, just waiting to go off like a firecracker... Thank GOD that big McKendry was there to shield those children - what a hero! His wife surely is utterly proud of her husband who died for others, and glorified what's good about GOD! I feel so sorry for her and that church's loss of that man, but they all saw what a hero does in the face of cowardice!

[yardwork]

124. The shooter left a letter targeting "liberals and gays."

Still think that this was not politically influenced?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3412232

[Pavulon]

83. Because he is a murdering pos..

being able to figure out these people before they go off the deep end.

His politics are not relevant. This is not a political issue.

Looking for the behavioral patterns that lead to these acts is critical. As is quality mental care.

[yardwork]

87. This is absolutely a political issue.

The constant barrage of hateful language, torture and murder of detainees, vocal opponents of equal rights for gay people, and all the other ways in which extreme right-wing ideology has permeated our culture lead directly to these kinds of events.

When was the last time you heard of an extreme lefty killing people? It hasn't happened for forty years.

[Pavulon]

89. I do not know a source

that classifies political affiliations with murder.

I assume you mean Oswald.

No matter what his motivation it is a horrible thing. If it was a hate crime it should be prosecuted as one for sure.

This guy will be convicted and sentenced to death. He is probably on tape murdering people.

[yardwork]

92. You don't have to go all the way back to Oswald.

Try Timothy McVeigh, for starters. Then look at most of the college and church shootings over the past decade or so, including Columbine. Almost every single one of them turn out to involve shooters who were white supremacists and admirers of Hitler.

GQ has a long article on the Northern Illinois shooter in a recent issue. Turns out that he was another admirer of Hitler, right-wing politics, Pentacostal upbringing, etc. etc. Same with the shooter at the church in Texas.

In contrast, it's impossible to find a single recent attack on a church or institution in which the shooter was spouting left-wing beliefs, had left-wing links on his website, or had left-wing views. They are all right-wingers. I've done the research.

[Pavulon]

95. Columbine were kids

unable to form any reasonable political opinion.

Anyway it appears the guy had a beef with Christians in general.

I would guess in addition to being a MURDERER he is also STUPID. Like he knows UU from Southern Baptist.

Will see. You have covered about 20 murders over decades that had tens of thousands of murders that involve no political motive.

Oswald was a communist, his politics were probably irrelevant.

[yardwork]

97. What?! We're sending soldiers to war the same age as the Columbine shooters.

They were high school seniors.

I challenge you to show me a single mass murder - a shooting of a church, school, or other institution - that involved a left-wing shooter. I have given you numerous examples of right-wing shooters. Now you show me a single one that was a lefty.

[Pavulon]

98. I dismiss the premise.

mass murder is a teeny fraction that committed in the us. Columbine was a thrill kill by kids.

The politics of a few people does not inject politics into every case.

I do not intend to try to prove there is a left wing aspect to any killing.

Show me primary data correlating murder convictions to voter registration.

[yardwork]

101. Figures you would wimp out.

[Pavulon]

103. xls or csv text

importable into a excel for correlation. You need an N of several thousand to get anything meaningful.

Name, Political Party<cr>

[Psephos]

104. I wouldn't mind having at look at that data, too, when you find it n/t

[primavera]

140. I'm not so sure

There are so many variables involved, I'm not sure there's any way to conclusively prove it through formal studies, but it makes a certain amount of intuitive sense to me that a society which promoted intolerance and hatred would contribute to the behavior of those individuals who expressed intolerance and hatred. I mean, we know from Zimbardo that ordinary individuals are capable of committing unspeakable acts of cruelty if put in the right circumstances. We know from history that a lot of ordinary Germans were willing to accept that Jews were Niedermenchen because the culture in which they lived told them they were. We likewise know that ordinary citizens have aided and abetted the criminal actions of organizations such as the Klan because they grew up in a culture which scapegoated black people. So why is it such a stretch to speculate that a political culture which teaches Americans to be constantly afraid and to be on the watch for terrorists and subversives, to perceive threats in people from different backgrounds and of different religious beliefs, and to be an active participant in the war on terror, to recognize liberals as terrorist agents who hate America, might similarly contribute to the behavior of someone like the alleged perp in this case?

[GeorgeGist]

116. judeo-christian progressives ...

exterminated the native people of the 'New World'.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

102. Firefighters have died in fires set by environmental activists.

That wasn't 40 years ago.

David

[Hayduke Lives]

106. I believe you are wrong.

I would love to see some evidence to support that statement. I'll wager a dollar that no firefighter has ever been harmed by an act of ecologically motivated arson.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

110. You may be right.

I get daily updates of firefighter injuries and LODD's. I seem to recall some injuries and a death from some eco-arson, however I can't find the specifics. I believe it occurred when a responding fire engine crashed. I'll look around when I get a chance and see if I can find the specific incident.

David

[nolabels]

107. Yea, them activists can be a problem sometimes

So what is your opinion of this most activist US president and the death he helped to cause?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

109. What are you talking about?

[depakid]

112. Firefighters have died from arson set by fellow firefighters

Probably many, many more than are attributable to activists over the years...

See, e.g.: Too Close To The Fire
A Problem Few Firefighters Want To Talk About

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/20/60II/main530103.shtml

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

118. Absolutely.

Unfortunately they can't be prosecuted more severely than any other arsonist.

David

[MarcA]

108. Another "neighbor" Speaks

According to the website of a Knoxville area TV station, WBIR, another "neighor" says he referred to himself as a "Confederate" and as being loyal to "the old South". FWIW.

[alphafemale]

111. This is so sad. But it sounds like there were heroes there. nt

[Divine Discontent]

113. that wonderful man......

"He was a very large gentleman. He looked like a football player. He did obviously stand up and put himself in between the shooter and the congregation."

:(

how sad... but what an honorable man this McKendry man was.

May GOD comfort all those effected by this hateful cowardice displayed by that man who had to use a rifle to have an advantage over a bunch of church members of a very loving, non-judgmental denomination. He probably thought he'd take down 10 or 20 people, but GOD used Greg McKendry yesterday to protect dozens of people!


"They stepped in when the church needed a new refrigerator," Chadwick said. "When the church needed a new hot water heater, they bought it."


And then he gave the church his life...

What a wonderful couple they sound like, and what a hero he became to so many!



The sin of the killer spewing his hate speech for the devil did not win over the love of CHRIST.

For GOD was glorified by the actions of Greg McKendry today!

[Goblinmonger]

122. Couple things

1. I'm sure many people appreciate your positive thoughts.
2. Most UUers would not subscribe to your concept of "god using" this person.
3. If god did get involved, why didn't he get involved about 30 minutes earlier and have some "vessel" take out the asshole in a car accident or something?

[Divine Discontent]

132. because we're not androids with no thoughts

this argument, rather misplaced in this thread, considering what the circumstances are, is one of the ones that I find repeatedly odd.

God's decisions as to what happens to ULTIMATELY glorify Him are of His own understanding, but simply the argument is this - free will. Why would any god have us created just to control every living aspect of our existence? Instead, through faith building, things occur to make us trust in God's ultimate wisdom, even if we do not understand why things occur. Yes, the mentally ill right-winger did horrible things, and he took the mortal life of 2 people, but, the church is strengthened in their faith, God IS glorified by the actions of His follower, Mr. McKendry, and I pray some day you will understand that. God bless.

[liberal1973]

130. Mr.Adkisson

This guy should be put in the electric chair. He's just a typical Neo-nazi republican who listens to rush limpball and watches fixed news.

[Divine Discontent]

133. I do not doubt whatsoever, that the programming and brain-washing

that's pushed by those windbags, ultimately, leads the weakest minded individuals to take these kind of actions when they have a mental breakdown, and that's something that should be addressed about how these talking-heads promote hatred.

There's a jerk in Orlando, "Bud", who's on the radio and TV, and he warned a radio caller that he stops really bad things from going over the airwaves, because they have a delay - well, not more than 10 minutes later, someone said she hoped Obama met an untimely fate overseas, and wow, what do you know!!!??? The comment wasn't blocked from going over the radio! That happened last week. These people brainwash these simpletons then cry that they have nothing to do with it when one of their sheep does something ghastly like this!



More at - - - www.cafepress.com/votenoon8

[Cha]

141. This writer calls it Terrorism and I agree..

"The shooting at the Unitarian Church in Knoxville, TN on Sunday that left two adults dead and seven wounded was an unequivocal act of terrorism.

Though the international community at the UN General Assembly has been unable to come up with a common definition of terrorism as it applies to existing groups there are broad elements of a definition that are widely held.

An act of terrorism is violence by a civilian or civilians against unarmed civilians for a political motive. Al-Qaeda attacking US servicemen in the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, or in the USS Cole, or in Iraq or even in Fort Dix, New Jersey is not terrorism. It is a guerilla attack. Al-Qaeda attacking civilians in US embassies in Africa or at the World Trade Center is indeed terrorism.

So is suspect Jim D. Adkisson's attack on civilians in the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church. Police found a letter in Adkisson's car expressing his " hatred of the liberal movement."

Even if this man hopefully acted alone it is chilling to all progressive people and groups, like the Unitarians. Are we free to express our views, indeed to allow our children to perform in a church play?"

<more>
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-lauria/unitarian-church-shooting_b_115392.html