New Poll Reveals Parents Favor Abstinence Education

[DuctapeFatwa]

Today a newly released poll conducted by Zogby International and commissioned by Focus on the Family reveals that a majority of parents support a pro-abstinence message to teenagers.
Out of the 1,004 parents surveyed across the nation, 96 percent said abstinence is best for teens. Ninety-one percent said that the best choice is for sexual activity to be linked to love, intimacy, and commitment -- the qualities that are most likely to occur in a faithful marriage. Family Research Council (FRC) Vice President of Communications, Genevieve Wood, has released the following statement on today's new poll results:

"For too long teenagers have been fed the lie that reliance on contraception amounts to 'safe sex.' It doesn't. Parents are waking up to the fact that schools aren't teaching their children the values of love, commitment and basic life choices that lead to building a healthy marriage.

"Parents play a significant role in whether or not their teen will choose to have sex. Study after study indicates that when teenagers perceive that their parents, particularly their mothers, strongly disapprove of them having sex, they are more likely to delay sexual activity.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040128/dcw047_1.html

[West Coast Democrat]

1. ZOGBY=Pollster for Hire

Focus on the Family? Yet another reason I can't take Zogby at all seriously.

[lancdem]

14. His Reuters polls are OK

but he does a ton of polls for RW groups like this, and the results always supports that group's agenda.

[lancdem]

15. His Reuters polls are OK

but he does a ton of polls for RW groups like this, and the results always supports that group's agenda.

[jwcomer]

49. Agreed!

Folks, Zogby is a highly unreliable 'polling' source. I've been maintaining an extensive analysis of all the presidential polls under Bush. Something like what you can find at pollkatz but much heavier on the analysis. I'm a math grad student at Columbia university, so I feel somewhat qualified when I say that Zogby has the worst polling results of my sample. I jest not, when I say that Zogby makes Fox polling look both fair and balanced (Zogby has twice the bias "unfairness" of Fox and twice the uncertainty "unbalancedness", in other words not only is the Zogby poll biased, it isn't even consistent in its total amount of bias.) I suspect that the problem is partly incompetence (the unbalanced part) and partly that Zogby is for hire (the unfair part.)

[alittlelark]

89. I got some lit.. from them in my home-schooling

network. Complained to administrator - got them to stop. F on the F IS A scary group. Lots of Zealots and sheeple.

[Sandpiper]

2. Why does anyone believe

That abstinence education is going to make kids want to stop having sex?

[0007]

6. It isn't!

[kysrsoze]

40. I think it will teach some kids to at least wait awhile

I would like to see abstinence taught in school, ALONG WITH real sex education. Kids need to be taught both the potential dangers of STDs and that abstinence is the only true prevention for that. However, people also need to realize that many kids are going to do it anyway and prepare them by teaching them how to protect themselves from STDs and pregnancy.

[izzie]

10. I guess they wish it. I think they should teach it but,,,,

along with the rest of it. It is silly to only teach that as it does not work for all kids.And none of this stuff 'when we were all Christians this did not happen' These people live in some type of dream world.

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Not silly at all

Even your post makes it clear it doesn't work for ALL kids, which implies strongly it works for some.

Personally, I want both abstinence and sex ed taught. Abstinence is the ONLY way to guarantee no pregnancy and no STDs. Birth control just limits your chances of negative consequences.

[scottxyz]

80. Condoms work better than abstinence, in the real world

Why? Because with condoms, at least you get a chance to get your rocks off safely.

With abstinence, you sit around for days and weeks all horned up trying to be good - then the dam explodes and you go out and be REALLY bad.

For example:

http://www.thestranger.com/current/savage.html

With condoms, you find there is a reasonably safe way to get your rocks off without jepoardizing people's lives.

If we were so concerned about things being 100% safe, then we wouldn't even drive cars. More people die per month in US traffic accidents (over 3,000 per month) than died in the 9/11 - but most people seem to agree that the practical benefits of being able to get around are worth 3,000 dead people per month.

There is some tiny risk of STDs or unwanted pregnancy with condoms - probably a small fraction of 1% - but most people seem to agree that the practical benefits of being able to have sex are worth that small amount of risk.

I am SO tired of sanctimonious people talking about how condoms aren't 100% safe, and how abstinence is the only 100% safe approach. If you believe, that, then sell your car and walk everywhere - because being in a car isn't 100% safe either.

Of course, the idea of people being in a car doesn't get you all hot and bothered - the way the idea of other people (particularly young people) gets you all hot and bothered. That's the REAL reason why you don't want other people having sex - it just burns you up somehow that they're having all that fun.

If you use a car and accept all those risks, but you can't accept the risk of sex (and you can't even allow OTHER people to make this informed choice), then just come out and say that you're uptight and anti-sex, and stop trying to pretend that you're so concerned about "safety". Uptight hypocrites.

[GinaMaria]

48. highest teen pregnancy rate was in the 1950's

I believe. Pre birth control, pre sex education. You just don't hear it talked about because these teens got married.

We could be doing a lot better. I don't know of any sex education program that doesn't already teach that abstinence is the only 100% way not to get pregnant and not to contract an STD. Health professionals say this all the time, to adults and teens. Health care providers are limited in what they can do. Give accurate information, explain the consequences of each option or choice and accept that it's not your choice to make but the individuals.

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. Scary

GM

The subject of sex education has been discussed several times among high schoolers I volunteer with. Each time, there have been students AND teachers who didn't realize a condom did not prevent all STDs.

[GinaMaria]

56. People forget

that teens are seen by doctors. As someone who worked in a Peds hospital for 10 years, I can assure you that accurate health information is given to parents and teens. Maybe this isn't an issue for the schools? Maybe this should be handled by health care providers.

As a peds nurse, the biggest battle in this type of information is beating the myths that kids accept as truth. They learn these myths not from the school, not from parents but from other kids. This age group places more trust in their peers than adults.

[Muddleoftheroad]

57. Doctors should not bear the whole burden

This is a complex subject and not something doctors have in their race through the check-ups. I haven't spent more than 10 minutes with a doctor at one sitting in years.

[Guaranteed]

11. Especially when the TV babysitter is telling them TO have

sex all day long.

[Carni]

17. Hell no...

They will be so appalled by the "goody two shoesness" of it that they will be spurned on to go have sex with the first person they encounter IMO

Talking to teenagers about moral implications bla bla always backfires IMO

They need to stick to the basics- like avoid pregnancy and use protection against hideous diseases.

[Muddleoftheroad]

35. The basics

Need to include that only abstinence will GUARANTEE prevention of both pregnancy and disease.

[Sandpiper]

42. The basics need to exclude

Any religious mumbo jumbo that having sex outside of marriage makes you some sort of awful immoral person.

There are some obvious benefits of abstinence, but abstinence should only be taught as one possibility of many. Sex education should not be a brow beating over "sins of the flesh."

[Muddleoftheroad]

52. Fine by me

I am being pragmatic. I advocate teaching both abstinence and sex ed. But we need to make it clear all the bad things that can occur if you have sex. The good things are obvious.

[LiberalFighter]

103. Human nature is...

to be naughty. Others talking about what not to do does encourage others to do what is considered naughty.

So in effect the "religious right" and self-righteous are the ones that are encouraging it.

[Carni]

61. Yeah well...

If you want to guarantee you won't get killed by (or in a car) then you need to stay away from cars, roads and sidewalks...doesn't mean it's going to be at all feasible IMO

[Muddleoftheroad]

62. Not exactly a realistic analogy

Cars and sex might go hand-in-hand in some ways, but that's about where the analogy ends.

[scottxyz]

81. Actually a very realistic analogy

What's similar is that using cars or having sex are activities that ALWAYS INVOLVE SOME RISK but which also PROVIDE GREAT BENEFITS.

[mn9driver]

19. Parents wanting abstinence ed. and having it actually work

are two different things. This is from the google cache of 1/4/04 Mpls Star Tribune (can't link to it: search Minnesota abstinence education and it'll come up):

...The state's $5 million abstinence-only sex education program isn't working, according to an independent study commissioned by the Minnesota Department of Health.

The study found that sexual activity among junior high kids at three schools where the program was taught doubled between 2001 and 2002 -- a pattern similar to that exhibited by kids statewide -- and that the number who said they would probably have sex during high school nearly doubled, as well...

Better to also teach them how to handle it just in case...

Driver
Roachblog

[lazarus]

94. well, "Just Say No"

worked so damned well for the drug war, right?

[arcane1]

3. I support a pro-abstinence message, too

but I do NOT support abstinence-ONLY messages

methinks that is how FOTF will spin it...

[GoddessOfGuinness]

21. I'm with you...

And I'll bet most of those answering feel the same way.

[Columbia]

24. Same here

Teach everything, that's the best way.

[murielm99]

29. I support a pro-abstinence message...

We told our kids that we did not think high school age people were really ready for sex in a relationship. But we made sure they got an education that was NOT abstinence ONLY.

And I told my kids to come to ME when they needed birth control, at whatever age that might be. They did.

They are 20,22,and 24 now, two girls and one boy. They are disease free, and have had no illegitemate children. But more importantly...most importantly...they all have solid, healthy relationships with a significant other. They would like to have children eventually.

Will their relationships last? Maybe. I hope so.

How do you educate anyone about sex and reproduction and tell them NO NO NO in the next breath? Did it work for our parents? Get real.

I do have to add, that my mother, a postwar bride, was very good about sex and birth control education with her boomer children. This was because she grew up without a mother, and had nowhere to turn for answers. She thought she was dying when she got her period. She made sure we knew what we needed to know, even though she did have the traditional save-it-for marriage values of her time and social class.

[formernaderite]

75. I ask my son one question....

I have a teenage son who is turning 17, remarkably good looking considering he's related to me and still a virgin. Openess and a certain amount of parenting will go a long way. I tend to be a firm parent, who teaches consequences of action.
My mantra to him has been, if you lie down with someone make sure you are choosing them as your child's mother. I don't want teenagers with babies, and I'm too young for grandparenting. He knows I would expect him, not I to take care of a child financially, which might mean quitting school altogether.
Maybe I've taken some of the glamour out of sex for him, but as girlfriends have come and gone, I've casually asked whether this one's mother material. Do I need the schools to teach something other than the biology of conception..no. I think encouraging abstinence is positive on many levels

[Muddleoftheroad]

77. Good job

Also good job being a FORMER Naderite. :)

[GoddessOfGuinness]

84. That's exactly what I've told my 16 year old

The fact is, too many guys his age assume that any girl they have sex with is either willing to get an abortion or won't get pregnant.

At the same time, I really feel that it's important for them to learn about different contraceptive possibilities so they have the information when they need it, and so they can practice safe sex. What about gay kids, who need to worry more about AIDS than pregnancy? Or kids that figure oral sex is a safe way to avoid pregnancy and STDs?

I'm happy to teach my kids about sex; but I'm also happy to have someone else teach them in a classroom setting to reinforce what they learn at home.

[LiberalFighter]

107. Hmmm willing to have an abortion?

I guess that is a fallacy that needs to be proven wrong.

The girl has two alternatives. Abortion or having the kid and then of course the father ends up paying child support or the parent's of the father can be paying for it if the boy is too young.

The boys need to know that not all girls are good and do they really want to have any type of relationship with someone of that character? What does it say about them?

The boys need to understand that the child they created may not have the involvement of a father that it needs. The relationship between that child and father may be strained because of it and depending on the character of the father it may effect both of them in later life. Relationships are important!! Not just with spouses but also within the family involving the children. That relationship can improve the quality of life.

[LiberalFighter]

106. That is an important question for both girl and boy!

They both need to consider what happens to their future. Their career could be jeopardized by keeping them from expanding their education through college. Their self-esteem could be put at risk with the weight of raising children and picking the wrong spouse.

They both need to consider the character of that sex partner.

Sex education needs to be provided by responsible individuals. Both the school system not necessarily during regular school hours and the parents need to be involved. I don't remember the program that was offered in our schools but it was a father/son program held once a week in the evenings for 4-8 weeks. Parents can and should offer an aspect of sex education that the high school sex education experts can't offer. The values and life experience that they can see first hand whether bad or good. Even if it is bad it should be an example for the children of what they don't want to happen to them.

Glamour as you say needs to be minimized and maximize the negatives if they screw up. At the same time maximize the positives if they think about the consequences and they make the right choices for themselves and the person that they will spend the rest of their life with together.

There has to be a balance between the programs and the parents. Each has to contribute to make it work.

[MarkTwain]

4. Well, so much for credibility....

... right out of the gate : "commissioned by Focus on the Family."

Dobson and his dick heads.

[0007]

5. 'Tis a certainity that most parents would want their child

to be disease free and without baby.

[seasat]

7. I wonder what other questions they asked in that poll?

These pollsters will go out and ask almost any question you pay them to. They then give the results to the person that paid for it and they get to report what they want. It makes sense that most parents would prefer abstinence education but did they ask if they also wanted education about contraceptive usage also? It's also interesting that parents want the schools to teach their kids about abstinence yet the article points out that parents have the biggest influence on whether a kid remains abstinent.

[SadEagle]

8. Spin alert: abstinence education != abstinence-ONLY education.

Bigggg difference.

[Barrett808]

9. Dan Savage's column this week is strangely apropos

I'm an 18-year-old senior in high school. I met a girl at a party one night and we ended up going out for about a month. During that time we never went further than me fingering her, because she didn't want to. We had both had sex before, she with her boyfriend of eight months (they broke up before we met), and I with a couple of stoner chicks. I'm pretty into partying; I always toke up when the opportunity arises. She's not into partying at all.

On New Year's Eve, I went to a party after I dropped her off at 1:00 in the morning, and I got pretty fucked up. In truth, Dan, I was tripping and I can't remember half of the night. I do remember making out with two other girls. I felt awful and told the girl I had been dating about it. She didn't dump me and we continued to date for another week, at which time she ended it, saying she just didn't like me anymore. I think she actually broke up with me because I nearly cheated on her and she didn't approve of my party habits, but when I asked her this she denied it.

Then, a week after we broke up, we were talking in my room and we started making out and proceeded to have sex. She had always told me that she couldn't have sex without love and that sex was a very emotional thing for her. Afterward I asked her if she wanted to start dating again and she said no. She said she doesn't like me like that, and that she was just horny. Now she tells me she likes a different guy. Dan, please tell me, what the fuck is going on?

Tormented, Horny & Confused


It's like this, THC: This girl, like most of today's young people, was probably subjected to "abstinence education," AKA the sex-negative, sex-phobic moralizing that passes for sex ed in the United States nowadays. In her abstinence ed classes, your on-your-dick-again, off-your-dick-again girlfriend was taught that anyone--but especially any girl--who has sex with someone to whom she isn't married, or, failing that, passionately in love with and committed to marrying ASAP, is a Terrible Person with Terrible Morals who will contract a number of Terrible STDs and die a Terrible Death. Girls who've fallen for this line of crap--a small minority, I'm happy to report--can frequently be overheard saying things like, "I couldn't have sex without love..." when they're being finger-fucked by stoner boys they've been dating for a few weeks.

(more)

http://www.thestranger.com/current/savage.html

[Sandpiper]

12. That pretty well sums it up

It's like this, THC: This girl, like most of today's young people, was probably subjected to "abstinence education," AKA the sex-negative, sex-phobic moralizing that passes for sex ed in the United States nowadays.

The problem with "abstinence education" is that it teaches kids that they should be ashamed of one of the most normal and natural feelings that a human being experiences.

Why do the religious nuts hate sex so much?!?!

[LiberalFighter]

108. Because they believe that anything that feels good is bad??

Like dancing?

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. Yeah, that sure was an intelligent response to his reader

In case you hadn't noticed, Dan Savage writes a pro-sex, pro-anything goes column. To cite him as a source is laughable.

[Sandpiper]

41. I guess you favor

Teaching children to be ashamed of their bodies?

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. No

I favor both sex ed and abstinence education at the same time. What children decide to do with their bodies when they grow up is their choice. It is my goal to make sure they understand the ramifications of their actions.

[scottxyz]

83. We know who Dan Savage is

For some people (such as myself) he's one of our favorite columnists.

To cite him as a source is a breath of fresh air for such people.

You say "pro-sex" like it's a bad thing. In case you haven't noticed.

[Muddleoftheroad]

85. Pro-Sex

I am pro-sex for consenting adults, not for kids. For kids, they need to learn how to rule their bodies and not the reverse. Dan, while humorous at times, is pro-sex across the board.

[CO Liberal]

13. Any Poll Commissioned by "Focus On The Family" is Flawed

IMHO, they're almost as bad as the Nuts Ruining America.

And both organizations deserve to go out of business. We'd be better off without them.

[Carni]

16. Well THIS parent doesn't

I don't want my kid having sex until they are 30 or I am dead (lol)

BUT I have no problem with an embarrassing clinical presentation about sex, birth control and STD's
(The types of presentations that poor slobs such as myself were subjected to in the 70's lol)

What I DO NOT want...is some educator or goony person appointed by God knows what RR group talking about feelings, *waiting* etc...

Maybe I need to grow up and get a life but that sort of a convo in a Government/ school setting gives me the heeby jeebies.

I just don't want these people getting inside of my kid's head thanks very much!

[kath]

28. "BUT I have no problem with an embarrassing clinical presentation about

sex, birth control and STD's
(The types of presentations that poor slobs such as myself were subjected to in the 70's lol)"

Heh! I was in high school in the 70s too. Who here remembers seeing a hilarious VD film called "The Innocent Party"? And how 'bout the anti-marijuana film starring Sonny Bono? What a hoot!

[Muddleoftheroad]

37. Slight difference

That was in the era before AIDS, Herpes, HPV and a host of other goodies that either kill you or give the gift that keeps on giving.

[GinaMaria]

51. Huh?

Did you mean to say that there was no Herpes before the 80's? or other sexually transmitted diseases? Just because they were labeled VD doesn't mean they didn't exist. Herpes has been around a very long time.

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. Not in the popular consciousness

AIDS clearly is a new problem. Herpes became well known in the 1980s. Before that, it was widely assumed that penicillin would cure pretty much any VD you could get. HPV while not new is certainly an issue with which we are still learning.

[GinaMaria]

55. I was a preteen in the 70's

I knew better than that.

You're going to have to give some evidence to back that up. As a health care provider, I never heard that. I started before the AIDS epidemic. We certainly studied people's perceptions about various diseases and taught truth against myth. That's not a myth we learned. Your assertion is news to me. Please provide a source.

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. My source is I lived through it

I remember quite clearly when the Herpes scare hit when I was in college. Talk about something that impacting dating, that was it.

[Carni]

60. Oh God lol

I was spared the Sony Bono film! Hilarious!

[LiberalFighter]

109. Geesh... Sonny was a bozo then and in Congress

[wysi]

18. !

Parents are waking up to the fact that schools aren't teaching their children the values of love, commitment and basic life choices that lead to building a healthy marriage.

Geez, if we can get the schools to teach it, then we won't have to teach it, or even model it at home! What a great idea! <sarcasm off>

[fshrink]

20. Good luck!

As for me I am so grateful to the sixties that it's not even funny. Working with angry children, I will never be out of business.

[icymist]

22. It would be interesting to see if this 'poll' winds up in the media!

a monument to propaganda!

[ldf]

23. one question

for every single parent out there who is for "abstinence education".

were YOU a virgin when you got married?

if you weren't, you are nothing but a hypocrite.

and just how many times did you have sex BEFORE you got married?

how about sitting your son/daughter down and having an honest heart to heart talk with them about how to not get pregnant, or a disease. you may be surprised how they respond. if you show that you actually respect them by talking rationally about the issue, rather than just dictating to them, they may actually respect your advice.

abstinence education is nothing more than the right wing's attempt at retreading nancy's "just say no" campaign.

that one was certainly effective.

one other question. (ok, two)

what if your son or daughter decides to not get married? do you think for one second that they should swear to a life of abstinence?

there is not a snowball's chance in hell of that happening. and you would be a very sick and vindictive person to expect it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. So, in your world

People can't teach their children based on their own mistakes? Gee son, I committed a crime, but according to ldf I can't tell you it's wrong. I'd be a hypocrite.

Abstinence needs to be PART of sex education. Kids today are not taught about the ramifications of sex. They are taught that birth control and abortion solve everything. They don't. No birth control is 100% effective at either preventing pregnancy OR preventing STDs.

[Sandpiper]

43. So

People can't teach their children based on their own mistakes?

Why is having sex a mistake?

Gee son, I committed a crime, but according to ldf I can't tell you it's wrong. I'd be a hypocrite.

Why do you equate a natural, biological act with the commission of a crime?

[Muddleoftheroad]

47. Having sex sure as hell can be a mistake

You can pregnant, you can get a disease, you have can sex before you are ready, you can be pressured into sex or even legally raped.

So, yes, parents can learn from these mistakes and teach their children to do better.

I compare it to a crime because it was an example of a parent learning from a mistake.

[GinaMaria]

54. Where are you getting your (mis)information from?

Kids today are not taught about the ramifications of sex. They are taught that birth control and abortion solve everything.

Can you point to some reference that backs this statement up? In what school's curriculum are kids taught that abortion solves everything?

Health care providers have been conveying the message to both teens and adults that the only 100% effective way to avoid pregnancy and STD's is to abstain. As will any health information health care providers explain all options and the consequences of each option or forseeable possiblity. Verify they understood the consequenses of each option. The choice is left to the individual.

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. I volunteer with high school kids

I've worked with kids from around the nation. My source is both them and their teachers. So, either the message isn't being taught or somehow magically both students and teachers aren't hearing it.

[GinaMaria]

63. That's no evidence to back up your statement

Kids today are not taught about the ramifications of sex. They are taught that birth control and abortion solve everything.

Again show me a school's curriculum that teaches abortion solves everything.

The misinformation that teens have about sex usually comes from their peers who in general they trust more than adults.

If teachers don't have correct information, they should leave the subject to the school nurse, work with the school board to get appropriate materials for students or request training in the subject. I find it absurd that teachers are teaching false material like 'abortion solves everything'.

[Muddleoftheroad]

67. Misinformation

Yeah, that misinformation that comes from the teens is so powerful that their teachers learn it as well.

Maybe where you work, things are ideal. I've only volunteered in Maryland, D.C. in Virginia. I've encountered this in each place.

As for abortion, you cut out part of what I said. I said that they are taught birth control and abortion solve everything.

[GinaMaria]

68. So what did you do about it?

Assuming your absurd assertion is true that teachers actually teach 'birth control and abortion solve everything'. What did you do? Go to the school board?, Go the the school nurse? Figure out that the art teacher was teaching sex ed? Who were the teachers teaching this? Science Bio teachers? Someone with a diploma in education and science would know the basics of scientific research and have the ability to scrutinize broad statements like '
birth control and abortion solve everything'.

It sounds absurd and made up Muddle. And again, you ask me to take your subjective word for curriculum instead of the actual curriculum. The kids passing misinformation to teachers? Come on.

[Muddleoftheroad]

69. Each time

The subject has been discussed and clarified. I am in a position where I can't call the schools afterward because that would compromise my volunteering and get teachers into trouble. Frankly, as a result, I've had to do more reading on sex ed than I really care to do.

I'm sorry the real world sounds absurd and made up to you. It is not as perfect as some make it out to be.

[GinaMaria]

70. the real world is not as screwed up

as you would like paint it.

The subject has been discussed and clarified.

By who? You? If it is you, how are you qualified to teach this or any topic? What type of volunteer work involves teaching kids about sex? Do the parents know what you are teaching? You have access to accurate sex ed materials but somehow teachers in your area do not have access? How is this possible?


I am in a position where I can't call the schools afterward because that would compromise my volunteering and get teachers into trouble.

According to you, kids are getting inaccurate and false information that has life threatening consequences and you don't want to get a teacher in trouble? Anyone who works with kids should put their safety above the ego or financial needs of adults.

You don't want to give up your volunteer position of teaching sex ed by letting the schools know something is wrong with the information? Why? If they teach accurate information, your volunteer position of teaching sex ed wouldn't be needed anyway. I can understand a paid person not wanting to work himself out of a job, but a volunteer.

Sorry if you can't see why your story doesn't pass the smell test.

[Muddleoftheroad]

71. In a variety of ways

When I was in MD, I went so far as to get handouts on the topic from the state Health Dept. I passed those to their chaperone teachers. Other times, it's been the teachers. I don't consider myself a sex ed teacher, nor do I wish to be one. I do know when people make incorrect statements however and don't let those stand.

Alas, as much you might wish it, I can't contact the schools. I am in a volunteer capacity. I even had to sign a confidentiality agreement this last time.

Sorry, you can pick away all you want. My story stands. I've been volunteering with kids for years. When you work with kids, it is almost inevitable that the issue of sex gets discussed by them in question and answer arenas.

[GinaMaria]

73. As much as I might wish it?

Don't you wish it? You are talking about potentially life threatening misinformation going to kids. So, you really don't educate the kids. Is that what you're saying in this post? You educate teachers? Teachers who can't get information from the State Health Department? Teachers who after you point out a deficit in their knowledge don't do anything to correct that?

I've been volunteering with kids for years. When you work with kids, it is almost inevitable that the issue of sex gets discussed by them in question and answer arenas.

I've worked with kids most of my life. They have rarelyu asked questions and when they do ask questions it is when they aren't getting answers from closer sources. In my experience, kids don't ask alot of questions. I was the one asking, in private as concerns their health. It's part of a routine well child workup. Asking them questions gets them talking.

I can't imagine what type of volunteer work with kids puts their saftey second. Sad.

[Muddleoftheroad]

76. LOL

Ah, the desperation rant to try and make me look bad. Alas, it falls short.

Sure, I could go out and make a stink and get nothing done but I would like destroy the program I volunteer with. Yeah, that's realistic.

In your experience kids rarely ask questions. Maybe that's about you and not me.

[GinaMaria]

82. ???

You think not doing something to correct a situation that involves the saftey of kids is my desperate rant? Interesting. You wrote with such passion about the misinformation they were given. You claim to have witnessed it in 3 states? Guess we have different obligations. Don't know your organization. I'm sure you've weighed the benefits and risks. From the information you have given, it sounds like kids are being cheated. Can you do something in the states where you no longer live or work?

Again, I find your story unconvincing that teachers rely on a volunteer of some organization to provide accurate information on sex that's obtained from the state health department.

I can't fathom an organization that puts kids' saftey second. Health care professionals can lose their licenses for not putting the child's saftey first, in this state at least. How can a volunteer organization for kids not have a similar standard?

In your experience kids rarely ask questions. Maybe that's about you and not me.

Out of context. Read the whole of what I wrote. They ask when the door has been opened by me. By me asking first. That is the style that works for me and gets me results. It's an approach taught in nursing school. Many use it. There's a lot that kids can hold inside.

Do I question what you're doing? Absolutely. There's either some major information missing here or this is misinformation. Doesn't make sens, but It's the weekend. Neither of us will change the other's opinion. I'm off. have a better one and do whatever you can to protect kids in your care. I promise to do the same.

[LiberalFighter]

111. I wonder what facts Muddle is not including

It is ridiculous to make the statement "They are taught that birth control and abortion solve everything."

I would say he is using selective hearing and attention to the program.

[BiggJawn]

25. Guess I'v4 never had a "faithful marriage"...

Not a whole helluva lot of "love, intimacy, and commitment" in EITHER of them.....

I had frank discussions with my daughter, "Look, you're 'blossoming', and boys are gonna be intersted in you. They'll say all kinds of shit , but they only want ONE thing, and that's to make me a grandfather before I'm 40..."

Must have done some good, she's 21, no kids, and hasn't gotten her heart stomped on too much...

[Skidmore]

66. Yup, that works....

I had a similar talk with my daughter years ago. Told her too that I had didn't want to become a grandmother before I was 45. Worked, too. She got married after she graduated from college--when I was 42--and waited till I was 46 to get pregnant. Came to me when she and her husband were ready to announce the pregnancy and asked, "Mom, are you old enough yet to be a grandma?" She's the delight of my life--I love that girl. My son got the same lecture and he's still single at age 24 and now working as an engineer. Every once in a while he says to me, "Don't worry, Mom, I'm careful. I'll let you know when I'm serious." I love that boy too.

[leesa]

26. Aren't the parents supposed to be teaching the children the "values

of love, commitment, etc..." The schools should be teaching them the facts of life which is what they do. I suspect the parents are too busy pursuing their own interests.

[Dirk39]

27. So why the hell is Bin Laden complaining about the

pervert obscene god-damned western-live style? If he could read this message, he would be willing to have group-sex with Barbara and Georgie-boy. Or was there any kind of islamistic rebellion in the U.S.A. I missed somehow. This is so ridiculous. Must be funny, to be a teenager in the U.S.A.: no sex and Bush everywhere.

"Germany 21.01.2004


No Sex Ed. Exemption for Muslim Sisters



A Hamburg court ruled this week that two Muslim teenagers could not be excused from taking sexual education classes at their school. In a suprisingly strongly-worded ruling, judges said that the parents of the 14 and 15-year-old sisters could not limit their education on "the basis of religious dogma." Though parents have a right to raise their children the way they see fit, the Hamburg school system also has a right to teaching students "personal responsibility," according to the judges. The parents of the two sisters had argued that since Islam only allows sexuality in marriage, there is no need to educate them beforehand about it."

http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1432_A_1094618_1_A,00.html


Dear American parents: teach your children to say NO, teach your children, to be aware to their feelings and to not deny themselves and to respect themselves. That's all you have to do. Everything else will be o.k.
Dear American teenagers: have sex, if you want to have sex. Don't have sex with people, you don't wanna have sex with. Even if your parents did force you to marry this borring idiot. Say NO, or say Yes, enjoy your live. Respect yourself and others.
Don't trust molested children like George W. Bush, just feel pitty for them.


Hello from free Europe,
Dirk

[MisterC2003]

30. They have abstinence-only sex ed at my son's school

I let him attend, but first we had a long talk in which I told him that abstinence-only sex ed was bullshit inspired by some politically-oriented religious nuts and that he wasn't to take it seriously. We'd already talked about contraceptives. I guess I'll have to talk some more about it -- dont' want him getting fucked up by messages to the effect that sex is bad created by some dickless religous fuckhead.

[stevebreeze]

31. link to questions

don't have time to read it but it looks like a very flawed poll.

http://www.whatparentsthink.com/pdfs/frfz_02_13_03.pdf

[sendero]

32. NPR ran a spot...

... this morning where they mentioned the poll (63% I believe they said supported the idea of abstinence education) and then included a segment created by a high school senior.

She said what many of us already knew.

Many if not most kids define "abstinence" as anything short of sexual intercourse. Any other activity, including oral sex, is still abstinence.

Peer pressure against "abstinence" is great. Kids that choose it learn to keep a low profile about it.

The idea of "sex in marriage" was dismissed, saying that "marriage is not everyone's goal".

I have 3 sons and they are early teen or preteen. I know they get some kind of education at school, but I'm not planning to rely on it. Abstinence is the best course but its foolish to think that kids will follow it into their 20s, or to marriage. Not likely.

Personally, the idea of marrying someone who you haven't slept with seems like awful risky business to me.

[bspence]

33. I can see this thing getting twisted...

into abstinence ONLY education. Sure, abstinence is great, but kids need to know about contraception as well. Too many stupid people out there.

[Iris]

72. I work with a group of college women.

Some are of legal age to drink and some are not. This sometimes creates a sticky situation - the organization wants to educate the women who are 21 or over about drinking responsibly (and even choosing not to drink!) and there is always concern about the underage women being part of the discussion. I finally got them to realize that just because you educate someone who is under 21 about alchohol, doesn't mean you are telling them they should drink. Furthermore, we can assume that all the girls will eventually be 21 and at that point should know what risks are involved with drinking.

Basically, I see sex the same way. I don't think many high school students are mature enough to be having sex, but eventually they will be and they should have the information at that point to make responsible decisions.

[Stuckinthebush]

39. Of course they do

most parents have a skewed view of sexuality anyway. They don't want their babies to have sex! Sex is bad!

The truth of the matter is that programs that stress abstinence only do not have a good track record. Those that encourage abstinence but also educate the children about healthy sexuality along with birth control and STD protection are the best ones out there.

Most people do not get married until mid to late 20's. I would hate to encourage my daughters to wait until their mid to late 20s to have sex. I find that to be very unhealthy.

[Nihil]

44. I wonder when we will start ...

... to get headlines like

"New Poll Reveals Parents Who Favor Abstinence Education Become Grandparents"

Common sense education should involve all aspects, abstinence, contraception, the lot.

Nihil

[Drifter]

46. I'm in favor of it too ...

as a PART of sex eduction.

To put all your eggs in one basket would be like ... er ... um ... ugh ... putting all your eggs in one basket.

Different things work for different people. By providing a broad based sexual education curriculum you will have more success with more people. Focusing on a single (unrealistic) approach will do far more harm.

Cheers
Drifter

[Courtney_P]

64. Zogby is a business

Any business that turns down clients for political reasons wont be in business for very long.

Also, what is the great evil in abstinance education? I never understood the outcry over it. When I have children I will teach them abstinance. They may or may not apply it to their lives, but I hope they do.

[jmowreader]

114. It's not "teaching abstinence" that's the problem

It's teaching "abstinence only."

You gotta know birth control. You gotta know a lot more about sex than just not to have it, because one of these days you're gonna get married, and if all you know about sex is how not to have it, you're going to be in trouble.

[Danieljay]

65. of course abstinance is the best choice

There is nothing new here, what parent WANTS their teen having sex? Very few parents, obviously four percent are going to say "hey, I WANT my kid screwing every Tom, Dick, or Harriet!" I used to be a health educator and we would ALWAYS say abstinance is the best choice, and then provide solid methods that would reduce the risk if they found themselves not able to make that choice for whatever reason.

For those who argued that teaching contraception and safer sex is giving permission or encouraging kids to have sex I would respond "you teach your kid to look both ways before entering the street, right? Are you giving him/her permission to play in the street?" They would respond of course, "no". I would then say, "that being said, if some day you weren't there to hold their hand and they entered the street anyway, at least they would know how to protect themselves and reduce the risk of being run over".

The interpretation of this poll by "Focus on the Family" is misleading. Yes, parents want their kids to "just say no' and support abstinance education, but NOT abstinance ONLY education. It is completely irresponsible not to give our youth the information they need to protect themselves.

Lets look at the reality, a hundred years ago the average age of puberty was 15, and the average age of marriage was between 16 and 18. You're asking a kid to say no only for a short time once the hormones kick in. Today, the average age of puberty is between 12 and 14, and the average age of marriage I think is around 25. You're asking a kid to say no for 13 years. I don't know about any of you, but thats something that would be impossible for nearly any one that I know.

[DuctapeFatwa]

87. The real choice that most parents have

is whether they would prefer a child who is sexually active and informed about the scientific facts of reproduction and sexually transmitted diseases or a child who is sexually active and not informed about these things.

Of course parents might prefer that their children not engage in sexual activity, however, as most parents will remember from their own adolescence, and some may remember from studies of history, the sexual urge in humans is somewhat strong, and sexual activity is not a recent phenomenon.

It is difficult to name a culture in which the people have not engaged in sexual activity, and generally speaking, at a younger age as opposed to older.

Even "good" boys and girls from devout religious families who carefully teach the virtues of abstinence have been known to be overcome with moonlight and hormones, and sadly, neither sperm nor eggs nor disease organisms can be counted on to show the proper respect for the fact that this was an isolated instance in the otherwise chaste life of an exemplary young person.

[Muddleoftheroad]

88. People say no all the time

Maybe the moonlight ain't great, maybe they are too sober or too drunk or too worried about their parents, etc.

And they say yes all the time.

Sex ed should teach both abstinence and the realities of sex -- pregnancy, disease, abortion, morning after pills, proper use of a condom, etc.

[DuctapeFatwa]

90. I am inclined to think that "teaching abstinence" is more appropriate for

parents and guardians whose faith traditions and/or cultural mores include abstinence.

The main arguments against teaching one particular moral value in taxpayer-funded schools in a secular state are first, resources.

(Although there is no reason why it couldn't be), a class on sexuality or sex education or reproductive health or whatever it is supposed to be called these days (they used to call it 'hygiene,') is not commonly combined with a class on comparative culture/religion, and since class time is limited, in this as in other subjects, it is a more efficient use of resources to spend history class time on history, and let the science class study science.

Second is the same issue that comes up whenever you get into the idea of teaching a particular religious belief, outside the context of a study of comparative religion. It is fine to teach children that some religions, and some cultures, prize abstinence, and encourage kids whose parents may NOT have talked with them about their views to engage the parents, and find out how they feel about abstinence and why, etc.

However teaching kids that they should practice abstinence, or that it is "best" is just as slippery a slope as teaching them that they should not be afraid or ashamed to express their sexuality.

And of course, the wisest way to practice abstinence is with a condom in the pocket or purse, and in the case of a young woman, with patch on or pill taken. ;)

[Muddleoftheroad]

91. It's not a value that I am advocating

Abstinence is the only guaranteed method of birth control that will prevent pregnancy and disease.

I don't care whether kids come from cultures that prize or lament abstinence. It works, we should teach it ALONG WITH sex ed. That's what schools do.

Alas, your comments at the end indicate that you believe abstinence can't work and so you wish to encourage the opposite. And that young woman with a patch or pill will then go out and either get pregnant or possibly diseased.

[DuctapeFatwa]

92. The problem is not with the young people, but with the disease germs

and sperms and eggs. They do not respect the fact that the young person was practicing abstinence and just "slipped up that one time."

It is the same reasoning as the old adage, "have faith in Allah, and tie up your camel."

Sex exists. You may wish it didn't, you may not like it, but if you are going to live on this planet, you are more or less doomed to share it with people who have sex.

The state has a responsibility to teach kids facts. Yes, if they are 100% celibate they will not get pregnant. But that "if" is so big that it qualifies for the Magical Thinking discount. ;)

[Muddleoftheroad]

93. Not a big if

Lots of people abstain -- either waiting for marriage or simply because they don't find the right person.

To FAIL to teach that as an option is irresponsible.

[DuctapeFatwa]

96. Should drivers ed classes teach walking?

If you walk, or simply stay at home, you will not have an auto accident, get a flat tire or a speeding ticket.

In sex education, if you teach the facts, you cannot avoid teaching "abstinence as an option." It stands to reason that in the absence of sexual activity, sexually transmitted diseases will not be transmitted and eggs will not be fertilized.

However the job of the secular school is not to sing the praises of celibacy or the joys of being a libertine, but to impart factual instruction.

[Muddleoftheroad]

99. We should probably teach pedestrian tactics

Since lots of pedestrians get killed every year.

But your analogy falls short. Driver's ed teaches all about use and non-use of a car. Sex ed should do the same.

No, it does NOT stand to reason that the absenece of "absence of sexual activity, sexually transmitted diseases will not be transmitted and eggs will not be fertilized."

Children are taught that condoms and abortions are just as reliable.

If our quote "secular" schools can't teach abstinence, then that would push me into the column for ending public education entirely. Because that would just be stupid.

[DuctapeFatwa]

101. LOL I think you are getting into the math class now

If condoms prevent x disease on an average of 90% of the time, any student who is incapable of understanding that 10% of the time condoms do not prevent x disease has an urgent need for remedial arithmetic as well as sex education.

I am not aware of any instance of students being taught that condoms or any other method of contraception or disease prevention is 100% effective.

The idea of sex education is not to encourage or discourage students to engage in sex, but to make them aware of the risks involved and educate them on what preventive measures are available, and the statistically demonstrated effectiveness of those measures.

[Muddleoftheroad]

102. Abstinence is 100% effective every time

It works for both pregnancy prevention and STD prevention. As such it is a viable method that must be taught.

In my experience students are taught that birth control (condoms and pills) take care of nearly every case and then there is abortion. The sex ed process seems to gloss over the problems that go along with this or the issues of STDs.

I disagree with your last point. Yes, the idea is to do whatever works to prevent pregnancy and disease in our children. Discouraging them works and must be done.

[DuctapeFatwa]

104. Your ideas would be appropriate for religious schools in a theocracy

In fact, I am sure that I am not the only person who has had this same argument, almost word for word, with people whose strong religious convictions and core belief that religion and state are and should be inseparable dictate much the same view: that the state must discourage and punish sexual behavior in young people.

You differ from them in that you have not yet argued that disease is a divinely mandated punishment for sexual activity, and for that you are to be commended. The longest journey begins with a single step.

[Muddleoftheroad]

105. I am not arguing for theocracy

The fact that you think telling kids not to have sex is such an argument really makes it clear the divide between your position and the rest of America.

I am not arguing to instill ANY religious or MORAL attitude. Fact is, abstinence works. Telling kids not to have sex is simply a health decision.

It works.

[DuctapeFatwa]

110. LOL and drought works to keep things dry. so tell the rain not to fall

but carry an umbrella just in case it forgets to obey you.

[Muddleoftheroad]

115. Drought

It does work. And I don't recommend carrying an umbrella. But I want to make sure they know how to use it.

[LiberalFighter]

They need a good example to explain the 10%

Maybe a computer program that would allow the user to stop the selection of the leaky condom.

Have all participants at a computer station and when they pick the leaky condom a light would start flashing. They could then see how many of them would end up being pregnant or being fathers. Sometimes that 10% would be higher because some groups or areas would have a higher tendency.

[LiberalFighter]

112. Dupe Scrubbed

[mbperrin]

74. This just in: parents also want their children to live long and

prosper.

Wanting is one thing, getting another, to quote my old German grandmother.

[gbwarming]

78. FOF had to spin this one pretty hard - read the actual Zogby report

Includes the questions.
http://www.whatparentsthink.com/pdfs/frfz_02_13_03.pdf

Most respondents approve of teaching adolescents to use honesty, self-control,respect, sacrifice and kindness to sustain relationships (92%). Overall, just under three infive (58%) also approve of adolescents having a knowledge of condoms andcontraceptives to sustain relationships. More than one in four disapproves (29%).

While overwhelming majorities of parents approve of teaching adolescents about how to sustain relationships, 47% of adults with less than a high school education, 26% of seniors 65 and older, 17% of Hispanics, and 16% of people with household incomesless than $15,000 disapprove.

A majority in almost every sub-group approves of adolescents having good knowledge of condoms/contraceptives and their use. This includes significant majorities(three-fourths or more) of 18-29 year-olds, African Americans, Jews (81%), single adults,and those living together (88%). Approximately two-thirds of residents of large cities,divorced/widowed/separated adults, and people with household incomes of $15,000-$24,999 also approve.

Then check out the inferences they draw:
http://www.whatparentsthink.com/pdfs/tagomfz.pdf

Sickening.

[scottxyz]

79. Funny (and kind of sad) letter shows how abstinence ed backfires

Here's a funny (but kind of sad) letter to advice columnist Dan Savage showing the warped results that happen when preachers of abstinence try to stamp out sexual desire in young people:

http://www.thestranger.com/current/savage.html

As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions...

[markses]

86. In a huge shock, Dads oppose their teenage daughters

giving head to the gangster kids while drunk on Mad Dog 20/20.

What is the world coming to? :eyes:

[flaminbats]

95. I believe it...

and I would also believe that every parent polled would state, without any doubt..that his or her child is still a virgin until marriage. :eyes:

Some people find out the hard way, others never find out at all! No matter how common kids knocking each other up is, it could never happen to mine...:wtf:

[stevebreeze]

97. why would you even ask some of these questions of parents of 6 year olds?

See page two of the poll.

http://www.whatparentsthink.com/pdfs/frfz_02_13_03.pdf

What's more how many of these people know that scientific study, as in not polling,shows abstinence only education if far less affective in achieving the goal of less pregnancy and less disease? How likely is it that most of these people made their opinion with an knowledge base from the boob tube? Pretty likely I think.
:kick:

[Logansquare]

98. Focus On Your Own Damn Family

one of my favorite bumper stickers. I bet the poll is full of push questions designed by FOTF.

[Logansquare]

100. Here's the real questions from the blatant push poll

http://www.whatparentsthink.com/pdfs/zogby_2004.pdf

Actually a majority (49 percent) of parents think that teaching kids to have condoms is as or more important than abstinence teaching.
Notice that the option B. includes "providing free contraceptives to teens" a classic push poll anxiety-inducing phrase that is intended to drive that number down.

A: Teaching teens to abstain from sexual
activity is more important than teaching
teens to use condoms when having sex
44 percent

B: Teaching teens how to use condoms
when having sex and providing free
contraceptives to teens is more
important than teaching about
abstinence.
8 percent

C: Abstinence for teens and condoms for
teens should have equal emphasis.
41 percent

D: Government and the schools should
promote neither abstinence for teens nor
condoms for teens.
7 percent

E. Not sure.
1 percent

"There are three types of lies: Lies, damn lies, and statistics" (attr. to Mark Twain)

[LiberalFighter]

113. Those religious nuts no how to lie

[pfitz59]

116. 'Focus on the Family' poll?

Most unbiased group on the planet! Gotta trust them polls!