Grand jury clears man for shooting men (Joe Horn)

[Lone_Star_Dem]

Source: Associated Press

HOUSTON — A grand jury declined to indict a suburban Houston homeowner for shooting to death two men he believed were burglarizing his neighbor's house.

Joe Horn, 61, shot the two men in the back last November after he saw them leaving a neighbor's house in Pasadena, a Houston suburb.

Horn confronted the men with a 12-gauge shotgun after a 911 dispatcher pleaded with him not to go outside his house.

On a 911 tape of the call, Horn can be heard threatening the two men, who were both shot in the back.

Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5864152.html

[nomorenomore08]

1. Kind of hard to plead self-defense when you're shooting a guy in the back.

But hey, it's Texas, where they have the death penalty for trespassing. :sarcasm:

[Tyler Durden]

4. A guy shot a Repo Man...

In the back, with a scoped, high powered rifle he kept loaded by the front door. He shot the guy from about two yards widths away, claiming he thought the guy was stealing his truck.

Not only did he no bill the Grand Jury, but his CHURCH took up a collection to pay his legal bills, ANY pay off his truck.

I lived in Houston at the time. I used to walk in the neighborhood at night, a practice I discontinued.

[sui generis]

11. hey, it's America where four out of five SCOTUS opinions were

FOR the death penalty for trespassing.

hayseeds and slack jawed yokels aren't just for breakfast anymore.

[jasmine621]

80. MOst of us will be in danger of something like this thanks to SCOTUS.

I would not want to be a delivery person in this country.

[outofthebox]

109. I thought this was a Texas grand jury--not the SCOTUS.

[LisaL]

18. He doesn't have to shoot in self-defense.

TX law gives him permission to defend property.

[nomorenomore08]

25. Yeah, that's what I meant by "the death penalty for trespassing."

nt

[fascisthunter]

74. Death Penalty for Burglary... sounds like other parts of the World

congratulations, Texas. You just made it much easier for killers to get away with murder.


"But, but, but... it was self-defense"

[awoke_in_2003]

66. I am all for responsible ownership

and protecting ones self, but even if someone was leaving my house, I couldn't shoot him in the back. Protect my family while in the house, yes. But what this guy did cannot be pardonned.

[nomorenomore08]

82. Agreed. If they'd broken into HIS house while he was there, I think the acquittal

would've been justified. A person should be allowed to use lethal force as long as they really are protecting themselves or loved ones from harm.

This case, on the other hand, is a travesty. The men Horn shot were no imminent threat to him, and he should have at least been convicted of manslaughter, if not second-degree murder.

[slackmaster]

93. There has been no aquittal

An aquittal happens only after someone has been charged with a crime, and put on trial.

The men Horn shot were no imminent threat to him, and he should have at least been convicted of manslaughter, if not second-degree murder.

I'm not a lawyer, but it appears that is not the case in Texas.

[TaffyMoon]

104. It's just stuff people

it is not necessary to freak out and kill.

[Tyler Durden]

2. Only in Texas...and ESPECIALLY Pasadena.

[skoalyman]

3. He should have held them till the police arrived

:crazy:

[Tyler Durden]

5. That's no fun!!!

[flvegan]

6. Obviously got a grand jury of his peers.

[StClone]

40. Judge, Jury, Executioner Yea Haaa!

Where are the Right to Life Advocates?

[awoke_in_2003]

67. Right to life only applies to fetuses

once you are born you are on your own.

[happyslug]

7. But in most states all the DA has to do is call a new Grand Jury

A refusal of a Grant Jury to indict is NOT a trial, so double Jeopardy does NOT kick in.

[hlthe2b]

9. Call a new Grand Jury? Hell, it sounds like the DA approves

He did say this shows (paraphrased) the system works.....:wtf:

[happyslug]

26. Since the invention of the position of DA, Grand Juries have become a tool of the DA

But Grand Juries existed, and their power is older, then the position of the DA (Which was invented in the US and spread to other Common Law Jurisdictions through given different names such as the Queen's Counsel in Canada and Britain).

Most Grand Juries will do what the DA wants it to do, but people can present their case and evidence to the Grand Jury. DAs make this almost impossible, but unless they has been an explicit law passed making it illegal you can present your case and ask for an indictment. In most states any indictment for a felony or misdemeanor must be tried by the Attorney General (Or his "lieutenant" for that District i.e. the "District Attorney". This is where the name for the DA comes and who is technically the boss of the DA). Lesser crimes are often handled independent of the DA, for most DAs do NOT want to waste their resources on Summary Offenses, so the law permit the DA to only review Summary cases, but in most states the law permits the DA can stop anyone but the DA from filing a felony case, even if the Grand Jury indicts.

Thus it is possible to get an indictment, you can also wait for a new DA to get elected, most states do NOT have a Statute of Limitation for Murder.

[Doctor_J]

8. In the back?? At his NEIGHBOR'S house?

Whenever I am having a bad day, I say a prayer of thanks that I don't live in Texas.

[sui generis]

13. I say the same thing about Caliifornia.

I don't know why, just habit I guess. State bashing is fun. More people should do it.

[raystorm7]

15. Be very careful where you live in Houston, A few streets down may mean daily crime or peace & quiet.

[Speciesamused]

21. Florida is just as bad.

Welcome to Florida, home of sun, sand, a delusional governor and a heartless Legislature.

[man4allcats]

48. Those of us who live in Texas also say a prayer

of thanks that you don't live here.

[frylock]

10. listen to the 911 tape of this idiot asshole..

he's been waiting his whole life for just such an opportunity. his life was never endangered.

[AngryOldDem]

90. CNN's playing it now.

And to be honest, the police dispatcher doesn't seem too concerned, either.

I always thought that the use of deadly force was NEVER justified to defend property.

Except in Texas, I guess.

[High Plains]

12. Yee-haw!! It's open season in Texas now.

They didn't have enough people shooting each other before.

[sui generis]

14. Okay, di di dee, Texas is not the problem

grow up children.

Now that everyone feels better about themselves by generalizing about Texas why don't you go out and kick a dog or piss on old person or something.

This idiot could as well have done that in Fresno or Michigan or, hell, Washington D.C. now.

[High Plains]

22. As a former Texan...

...I can only point out that this didn't happen in Fresno or Michigan or DC, but in Pasadena, TX.

[sui generis]

24. as a current Texan I am compelled to point out that you are generalizing.

It's irrelevant. Fresno is probably more of a freak show than any place in Texas.

Saying it's all about Texas is like saying it's all about the Jews; it's just creepy when we don't own it as a nation.

Welcome to America. I promise you people in Europe aren't distinguishing between our silly states.

[High Plains]

37. I'm not generalizing anything. This happened in Texas.

And given the way the grand jury there interpreted the law, it's likely to happen again.

In other states, he would most likely have been prosecuted.

And what do Europeans have to do with it, anyway?

[sui generis]

43. yes Texans are evil stupid people yadda yadda

happy now? Texans are Americans.

Fucking stupid even trying reason now. What does perception have to do with it? Because Americans are the only people stupid enough to try to feel good about themselves by nuancing this in terms of statehood.

[High Plains]

81. It's not an American law; it's a Texas law.

A bit sensitive aren't we?

And Americans aren't the only people stupid enough to employ state or regional stereotypes about their compatriots. But that's neither here nor there.

[LanternWaste]

89. Give it up... state bashing is the in thing when one lacks any real arguments.

May as well give it up... state bashing is the in thing when one lacks any real arguments.

God forbid any substantive arguments are offered up-- just let them continue in the fine tradition and popular past-time of denigrating am entire region and its population based on personal perceptions and a self-validating (and self-labeled) sense of moral (and regional) superiority.

[Raineyb]

98. How exactly is it state bashing if it's the state law that allows such a

travesty to occur in the first place?

The idiotic law that just let this man get away with murder isn't a federal statute it is a Texas state law. It wouldn't make sense to wonder what was wrong with say New York based on the story.

Regards

[slackmaster]

101. Are you sure that Texas law was properly applied?

I'm not.

[Raineyb]

102. From the article

Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect themselves if it is reasonable to believe they are in mortal danger. In limited circumstances, people also can use deadly force to protect their neighbor's property; for example, if a homeowner asks a neighbor to watch over his property while he's out of town.

If it wasn't applied properly the district attorney didn't seem overly concerned about it because he hailed the lack of an indictment as evidence that the system works.

I'll agree if with the district attorney that it is definitely evidence that the system works; if the system is not supposed to serve up justice.

Texas trigger-happy asshat, Texas prosecutor, Texas grand jury, Texas law, Texas problem. No state bashing.

Regards

[LanternWaste]

107. I imagine that many may be unwilling or unable

"Yee-haw!! It's open season in Texas now. They didn't have enough people shooting each other before. "

I imagine that many may be unwilling or unable to perceive the obvious denigration in that particular statement.

If TX were the ONLY state to have a law approximating the one in the OP, then there may wiggle room, but there are other states, hence no wiggle room...

Target the individuals, not the entire region-- it's simply invalid (at best) or lazy (at worst).

"Yee-haw!"? :eyes:

[Raineyb]

108. Actually it IS open season IN Texas seeing as a grand jury couldn't be bothered

to indict a man who shot two men in the back.

Now if you're implying that it's open season ON Texas I have no idea where you got from my post that I'm targeting the entire region. I certainly didn't use anything near as stereotypical as "yee-haw" to describe anyone in this story. However, I don't see how one can accuse someone of state bashing when discussing a bad Texas grand jury decision, an idiotic Texas defendant, vile Texas law, and a Texas DA who apparently isn't bothered by this travesty.

If something like this had happened in NY I certainly would expect people to wonder what the hell is wrong with NY law or judges or juries as happened in the Sean Bell case and I'd be the first one to call NY on it.

It's disingenuous to expect one to answer an OP talking about a specific case in a specific state and necessarily extend the outrage to other states although it's likely to happen and did happen in other posts. You're ascribing motives that were not in the post you've answered. Take your straw man somewhere else. I have no use for it.

Regards

[reclinerhead]

65. Say what you want about Fresno ...

And yes, there are quite a bit of freaks up there in Fresno.

FYI, there's one difference. California doesn't have this bullshit "Castle Doctrine" that lets some cowardly motherfucker shoot two people in the back, and get away with it.

Only in Texas!

[apnu]

27. While it is true he could have done this in Fresno...

... it is very possible that he would have been indicted on man-slaughter charges and his self-defense plea would have fallen flat on the jury's ears. But in Texas, many are saying here, that isn't true. I've never been to Texas, so I have no personal experience of the place. But from what I've heard of that area... this does not surprise me at all. In fact, I wish, sometimes, that maybe Texas should have stayed a part of Mexico, stuff like this makes me wish that a bit more.

[sui generis]

34. Yes, and Kansas should be nuked for having Fred Phelps

everyone feel better now?

Texas is not the problem. The problem is Rural vs. Urban. Nobody in Europe gives a flip about states. Like the people here bashing Texas, they're rolling it all up to America, because they don't care about "states". So let's all own it instead of giving Texas back to Mexico and making a large glass factory out of Kansas.

[awoke_in_2003]

69. "maybe Texas should have stayed a part of Mexico"

don't worry, pretty soon it will be again.

[iverglas]

36. really? do Michigan and DC permit shooting people in the back

to stop them from stealing a third party's property? Didn't think so.

I have a passing acquaintance with Texas law on this point, and I'm not persuaded it does either. The "third party" bit is just one step removed.

You may do it if it's your own properrty, though. And I'm still pretty sure you may not in Michigan or DC.

Or in any civilized part of the planet, of course.

"You wanna make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm gonna kill 'em."

After the shooting, he redialed 911.

"I had no choice," he said, his voice shaking. "They came in the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick."

Huh. You go out with a gun and the intention of killing someone, and they don't stand still and let you do it. Quelle surprise.

May he and the grand jury he rode out on die horrible deaths, very soon.

[sui generis]

44. Okay Iverglas

You oh rational one, I'm surprised at.

This is Texas bashing. I can forgive the other stupid people here . . . because they're stupid, but the "go figure it's Texas, don't we feel good about ourselves" what the eff is that serving?

It happened here first. That is all.

[iverglas]

46. surprised at ... thin air?

Do try reading my other posts in the thread.

Texas's law in this regard is vile -- but I'm not persuaded the decision in this case was correct even under Texas law.

Texas's law is no viler, although different, from related laws in several other jurisdictions. As I said, do try reading my other posts.

Parts of Texas are horrible. Yes, I've spent time there. Parts of many other states in the US are horrible. Yes, I've spent time there too. I've seen racism, for instance, in both Dallas and central Florida that made my hair curl.

This incident happened in Texas. Florida has its own shit to answer for.

[sui generis]

47. I like your posts

you lost me on thin air.

Anyway, let's talk about how many people in various of our more "self-righteous" states agree with the ruling rather than how evil all Texans are for merely breathing the thin air here.

That would level the playing field.

[iverglas]

50. I'm afraid that's a race

I got no dog in. ;)

I hate Texas for entirely my own reasons. The racism and right-wingery figure into it up at the top, but so do fire ants and a former significant other's family.

Yes, I've probably slept with more Texans than most here ... well, more than anybody who hasn't slept with any, anyhow. Now, Africans, Australians, Iranians ...


typos ...

[pnwmom]

41. Not true. Texas laws ARE the problem. You don't see comparable

laws to their "self defense" law in every jurisdiction.

[StClone]

42. Increased Potential

Texas, with more gun owners and loose self-defense laws, has the potential that this will happen again and again. I've been to the streets of SE Washington DC and I felt equally less safe anywhere in Texas from lawful gun owners.

[sui generis]

45. well I caught a bullet with my leg in NYC

not in Dallas. Years ago - before concealed carry in Texas.

I'm not a gunjeon geek by any means but there are people in Texas who are as unhappy and disturbed with this as everyone else is.

I'm disturbed at the willingness to generalize, but I've been on DU long enough to know when the mob starts feeling good about itself by pitchforking the monster, so have at it.

I really don't care - I figure the haze will lift as it usually does.

[StClone]

49. Yes but

I am pretty open-mined when it comes to guns.

I think in this Texas case the majority here is, as usual, ahead of the curve in seeing loose self-protection laws and encouraging gun ownership as not a necessary evil, but just a mind-set that is worse than the disease.

I will really miss living in a state that bans concealed carry, or open carry, now that it is likely to be overturned. We The People here, a Wisconsin majority, do not want the Right to carry laws.

[Jefferson23]

16. I recall listening to that audio the news carried of this, come on

how could this be considered justice.Pathetic grand jury decision.

[Speciesamused]

17. "Stand Your Ground" Laws

Everything Americans have worked for over the past 227 years, to establish the rule of law over the emotions of the mob and the predations of the aristocracy, has been nullified by fake terror, insincere legislators and endless bribery.
Vigilante justice is the new order of the day.

[Jefferson23]

19. That is horrifying, no other word for it.

[AndyTiedye]

32. "Shoot First and Ask Questions Later" Laws, More Like

Folks gonna get shot just for asking the time of day.

[Raineyb]

35. This concerns me greatly

because it seems to me that "Stand your ground" laws = open season on black people.

But perhaps I'm being oversensitive.

Regards

[iverglas]

39. oversensitive? Ha.

The voice of reason.

"Stand your ground" and so-called "castle doctrine" laws (the laws in question have absolutely nothing to do with the real castle doctrine) are the inventions of the racist (and misogynist) right wing.

They are a response to an invented problem, designed to incite fear and hatred of ... well, you know whom, really. The people who break into your houses to steal yr stuff and rape yr wimminfolk ...

"Your Home is Your Castle - Protect It" was the rallying call of George P. Mahoney -- the racist, right-wing Dixiecrat who lost the Maryland gubernatorial election in 1966 to ... wait for it ... Spiro T. Agnew. Because Agnew was the moderate, and Mahoney was the raving, racist right-winger.

Mahoney's platform consisted of opposition to housing integration ... and "gun rights".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_P._Mahoney

Just look what a little right-wingery can do for the Democratic Party!

[awoke_in_2003]

71. "open season on black people"

Could be right. "Oh look, a scary black man walking in my general direction". Could see that happening here. At one time, it was illegal to carry a gun in your car here. It was understood that if you were white you could get away with it. If your skin was darker, not so much.

[nomorenomore08]

83. Or at least, open season on young black men who dress a certain way.

And that's certainly no better. I always find it interesting, and sad, how modes of dress and speech associated with lower-class whites aren't coded (by the public at large) as "scary" and "violent" to anywhere near the same extent as those associated with lower-class blacks. It's a very insidious thing, that can operate even on a subconscious level.

[awoke_in_2003]

86. Yep, and any one who thinks racism

is gone needs to come on down here to Texas. Being white, I hear the racism all the time- they tend to let their guard down around other white people. Of course it is one thing with the vocal people, at least you know where they are at. But in a lot of ways, racism has become more subtle- and probably because of that, more insidious.

[iverglas]

38. the map is out of date; the disease has spread much farther

Discussion of the issues here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=125237&mesg_id=125237

referring to this article on the issues:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jol/vol43_1/michael.pdf

Links in this post seem to be dead:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=164510&mesg_id=164555

but what was said was:

Home intruder law baffles courts

... The law grants immunity to people who kill, in self defense, an attacker or robber in their homes or anywhere they "have a right to be." Legal experts say confusion over the law threatens to throw a wrench in homicide and assault cases across the state because defendants so frequently argue that they acted in self-defense.

... "In my 32 years of practice in the criminal justice system, I have never seen such a confusing mess," said Harry Rothgerber, the first assistant commonwealth's attorney in Jefferson County (Kentucky)

A judge and a legal expert in Kentucky described the new law there (essentially the same as Florida's) as

confusing, vague and poorly written.

"I'm not quite sure that the drafters had even a marginal knowledge of criminal law or Kentucky law," Circuit Judge Sheila Isaac said.

... "It is the worst legislation I have ever seen in 40 years," said Lawson, the principal drafter of Kentucky's penal code, which was adopted in 1975.

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=73535 (also dead)

In five highly questionable Florida deaths, the law is being used by killers in efforts to avoid conviction for a crime, and one of those deaths predated the law by almost a year. Another homicide, in Kentucky, was downgraded to manslaughter after that state followed Florida's lead and passed an identical statute. In that case, a crack addict used the law to get off with a lighter sentence after beating his drug dealer to death with a lamp.

... James Adam Clem, 27, beat Keith Newberg to death with a bronze lamp in Clem's apartment on August 9, 2004 in Lexington, Kentucky. This summer, he accepted a manslaughter deal and will be eligible for parole in several months. "One of our concerns was, if we couldn't understand it (the law) ourselves, how are we going to get a jury to understand it?" said Assistant Commonwealth's Attorney Kimberly Henderson Baird. (Lexington Herald Leader, 8-3-06)

[Loki]

20. Let's hope Joe never locks himself out of his house

and has to climb through the window, maybe one of his neighbors might decide to help him protect his property. I hope he never gets another peaceful night's sleep in his entire miserable life. Fucker. Makes me so proud :sarcasm: to live in Houston.

[superconnected]

30. Actually I hope that does happen. I don't want him to die, only get shot in the back

and think about while lying on his face in the hospital.

this man is a murderer. He was out to kill people. He found a way.

[LanternWaste]

33. That's my reaction, too.

"He was out to kill people. He found a way."

That's my reaction, too. I've looked at this scenario from as many different perspectives as I can when the story initially broke some months back, and it seems as though yours is simply the most likely explanation. He wanted to play John Wayne.

[katandmoon]

23. That's what happens when you live in a country where guns are more sacred than human life

[superconnected]

28. Self delete - I know(hope) most gun owners wouldn't do this.

[AndyTiedye]

29. What is It About Texas?

First the Texas Supreme Court legalizes exorcism (without the consent of the exorcisee!!)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3542554&mesg_id=3542554

and now this.

And this isn't out in Mad Dog, Texas, this is Houston!

[superconnected]

31. And now that neighbors can shoot and kill people taking things out of neighbors houses

everyone should warn their familys to NEVER show up, even with your approval and enter the house and take anything, even if it's theirs and they're retrieving it. Some blood thirsty gun nut can get off for murdering you if you do.

[SublimeFan1978]

85. I fail to see the

similarities of two illegal immigrant felons sneaking out of a window in broad daylight with arm loads of goodies that someone worked hard for, and your family showing up unannounced when you're not home.

I don't agree with the shooting, but these were not two innocent kids looking for candy money. They were hardened criminals. Joe Horn crossed the line, but to lump all gun owners in as crazy murderers is a stretch.

[RamboLiberal]

51. Man Cleared for Killing Neighbor's Burglars

Source: ABC News

A Texas man who shot and killed two men he believed to be burglarizing his neighbor's home won't be going to trial. A grand jury today failed to indict Joe Horn, a 61-year-old computer technician who lives in an affluent subdivision in Pasadena, Texas.

In the Lone Star state, where the six-gun tamed the frontier, shooting bad guys is a time-honored tradition, and Horn's case centered on a Texas state law based on the old idea that "a man's home is his castle." The "castle law" gives Texans unprecedented legal authority to use deadly force in their homes, vehicles and workplaces. And no longer do they have an obligation to retreat, if possible, before they shoot.

"I understand the concerns of some in the community regarding Mr. Horn's conduct," Harris County District Attorney Kenneth Magidson told reporters at the courthouse. "The use of deadly force is carefully limited in Texas law to certain circumstances. ... In this case, however, the grand jury concluded that Mr. Horn use of deadly force did not rise to a criminal offense."

-----

Lambright acknowledged that the 911 dispatcher urged Horn to stay inside but said, "Joe was doing what he thought was necessary. As a man, he thought it was his duty to protect his house, his neighborhood, his community."

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5278638&page=1

---

I'm a gun-owner who would use my weapon in self-defense. Sorry, but I don't consider this self-defense. This guy took it upon himself to be a vigilante.

[Captain Hilts]

52. Burglary is not a capital crime. He should have called the cops. nt

[MrsBrady]

55. he did.

he shot them while he was on 911

[bluestateguy]

53. He's going to look for the real killer

nt

[MrsBrady]

54. and as a Texan, I agree with you...

but unfortunately, this is legal here.

its just disgusting.

[AndyTiedye]

60. Coming Soon: Homeowner Shot While Breaking Into Own House, Forgot Keys

[LiberalFighter]

56. The 911 op was very persistent in him staying inside. The caller was trying every way

to get the okay to go out and shoot them. Listening to the 911 call the caller did not like being told to stay in the house.

[seriousstan]

57. Are 911 operators in Texas police? They are not in many states.

[LiberalFighter]

105. What do you mean?

Are you asking whether the 911 operators are part of the Texas police? Why ask that question? Has nothing to do with the story.

[DesertFlower]

58. i'm also a gun owner who would use my weapon

in self defense.

this was not self defense. it was murder.

[cornermouse]

59. If I was the neighbor, I would be afraid

that he might make a mistake and accidentally shoot me. I really would.

[pegleg]

62. The neighbor thanked him and the castle law allows a person to defend

a neighbor's home with his permission. He evidently had it.

[cornermouse]

73. I can't help it if the neighbor is an idiot.

He's going to have to be careful he doesn't do something to anger the shooter. Dead men don't tell tales could turn out to be his epitaph as well as the two burglars.

Add... Horn doesn't appear to be stable.

[KneelBeforeZod]

91. Defense wasn't based on "Castle Doctrine" ...

As a preface -- I am a Texan, a gun owner, and possess a Texas concealed carry license. I own 3 handguns (for self-defense), a pistol-gripped shotgun (for home defense), and a few of rifles and long-guns (for sport shooting). In Texas, guns are simply a different thing than in DC or elsewhere. Many people in Texas grow up around guns -- they're just part of life here. Whereas EVERYONE carrying in DC is a criminal, most people carrying in Texas aren't criminals ... most are just regular everyday people who wouldn't draw their weapon except as a last resort.

As for the "castle doctrine", it basically states that you're under no obligation to retreat from your home, car or business if met with an intruder. You may assume the intruder intends deadly harm, and you may defend yourself without fear of prosecution. Prior to this law, if someone broke into your home, you were obligated to try to find a way to retreat and leave the criminal to do as he pleased. You were required to ascertain the intent of the intruder, survey him for weapons, and find a way to run if possible.

I actually agree with the castle doctrine. If someone breaks into my home, I would naturally assume it was with intent to do harm to me or my family ... and I'd shoot him rather than risk the lives of my wife and children. Even if I were legally required to retreat -- I'd shoot him and accept the consequences rather than risk the lives of my family.

This defense wasn't based on the "castle doctrine", and the castle doctrine doesn't apply, because he wasn't defending his own home. This defense was based on another Texas law that allows the use of deadly force in the defense of another person or their property -- which basically allows the same use of force in defense of another as would be allowed in a self-defense situation. The theory is that people should not be punished for putting their lives on the line in the defense of another person -- as that is considered an "honorable" intent under Texas law.

Though I don't agree with the law with regard to defense of another person's property (I agree with regard to defense of another person) -- the lack of indictment was correct under Texas law. Under Texas law, the only crime committed was by the burglars. The law should be changed ... but under existing Texas law, Joe Horn committed no crime.

Just wanted to make sure we were arguing about the right law here.

KBZ

[KneelBeforeZod]

94. If I were his neighbor ...

I'd thank him for putting his life on the line to defend my home while I was out. Horn has never "accidentally" shot anyone. He's never mistaken a lawn-worker or Jehovah's Witness for an intruder and blown the head off of an innocent bystander. He shot two burglars, and put his life and freedom on the line for his neighbors -- I wouldn't mind befriending a man that would do that. I'd likely rest more comfortably knowing with a guy like that next door -- wouldn't you?

Like I said, I think Horn overstepped somewhat -- but I think he did so for the right reasons. This isn't a loose cannon out looking for a fight -- this is a person who did what he thought he had to to defend his neighbors from a couple of thugs.

KBZ

[cornermouse]

96. Please stay in Texas.

And I'll stay out of Texas. We'll both be happy that way.

[KneelBeforeZod]

112. Unless ...

>> And I'll stay out of Texas. We'll both be happy that way.

Unless your home is invaded and your neighbor just watches it happen (particularly if someone is home and could be hurt or killed by the criminal) -- then you might wish someone with your well-being in mind, like Joe Horn, was next door.

KBZ

[cornermouse]

127. And the odds on that would be what?

1 out of how many million? Anyway, guns are not the only deterrent.

[KneelBeforeZod]

128. Odds ...

>> 1 out of how many million?

Honestly, I don't know the odds of having your home broken into. Probably depends on where you live. Probably higher than the odds of accidentally being shot by an honest gun owner.

>> Anyway, guns are not the only deterrent.

I never said they were the only deterrent. I said they were a necessary means of self-defense. Learning to properly use a gun is a relatively simple precaution to take against the worst-case scenario. Most gun owners live their entire lives never having had to draw a weapon on anyone. A few don't.

KBZ

[my2sense]

61. So he's gotten away with murder

This is unbelievable. He is nothing more than a murderer. He shot these folk in the back....there was no self-defense involved. I guess it's open season.

[pegleg]

63. He was defending the contents of his neighbor's house.

Lesson here: Don't burgle.

[guruoo]

68. But then, there's flip side of this lesson:

Don't be mistaken for a burgular.

[Lance_Boyle]

113. Who in this story was mistaken for a burglar?

The two dead guys were bona fide real burglars, and now they are no more.

Your red herring won't hunt.

[guruoo]

115. IMO, you know it could have just as easily been a mistake. So...

best not be a burgular, or be mistaken for one in Texas.
:shrug:

BTW: Have you seen this....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3552289&mesg_id=3552340

[awoke_in_2003]

72. So, burglery is a capital crime?

Interesting point of view, especially from one with a profile comment stating: "Peace Corps, not Marine Corps"

[pegleg]

76. Allowing crime to dominate a neighborhood is not keeping the peace

[awoke_in_2003]

77. Keeping the peace

is the cops job. If they are breaking into your house while you and your family is there, I have no problem with. This guy shot them in the back like a coward.

[pegleg]

78. Obviously the jury didn't agree.

[Raineyb]

97. Maybe the jury was made up of ass hats

My apologies to folks living in Texas but what the hell is wrong with your legislators?

The very idea that someone can go out of their way to chase down burglars in the street, shoot them in the back and practically brag about it on tape to a 911 operator and gets off scott free is absolutely appalling.

Not only did this clown endanger himself by going out to find these burglars, but he endangered anyone who was in the area besides the burglars who may have happened to be walking out in the street.

What's worse, based on what I remember from this story when it first came out I seriously doubt that Mr. Shoot first ask questions never would have been so keen to go hunting if the burglars in question had skin of a paler complexion. Last I checked burglary was not a capital offense, unless it appears you live in a jurisdiction with these asinine "Castle doctrine" laws.

I was not being facetious when I said that these "castle doctrine" laws or the law in Florida that allows you to shoot someone for whatever reason because you "felt threatened" is the equivalent of declaring open season on black people. As long as people are more inclined to consider a group of black men to be thugs while the thought wouldn't cross their mind when seeing a similarly dressed group of white men these "castle doctrine" or "shoot if you feel remotely threatened" laws are an abomination and should be abolished.

Unfortunately, since black people, are not as valued in this society as white people that will not happen.

But I know at least 2 states where my 5'9" black ass won't be going. (The list will grow if more states adopt such laws.)

Regards

[iverglas]

114. heh, you apparently didn't get the memo

I was not being facetious when I said that these "castle doctrine" laws or the law in Florida that allows you to shoot someone for whatever reason because you "felt threatened" is the equivalent of declaring open season on black people. As long as people are more inclined to consider a group of black men to be thugs while the thought wouldn't cross their mind when seeing a similarly dressed group of white men these "castle doctrine" or "shoot if you feel remotely threatened" laws are an abomination and should be abolished.

Stick around.

GUN CONTROL IS RACIST.

Say it loud and often, and maybe you'll find that you can pretend to believe it.

Many here do. Pretend to believe it.


edit: I did the search you want to see:

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=site%3Awww.democraticunderground.com+%22gun+control%22+racist&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

[Raineyb]

122. Oh my God!

You're right. I didn't get that memo.

I have no words; it seems so patently ridiculous. I guess if enough people are fooled into thinking gun control is racist those who oppose any form of gun control will be cowed into reversing their stance.

It is beyond gross.

Regards

[iverglas]

126. you might be interested in the NRA's enemies list

http://www.nrablacklist.com/
(watch out for the annoying music; there's a "stop" button)

Spike Lee rolled by as I was looking there.

They're all on a 19-page blacklist of "anti-gun" individuals, including authors, religious organizations, businesses and celebrities compiled by the National Rifle Association. And like many blacklists, the purpose is all too clear: to intimidate and silence anyone who disagrees with the NRA's extremist agenda.

Right now the NRA is frantically shoving dangerous bills through Congress that would make it easier for criminals to get guns. It's time for our political leaders to stand with the American people and stand up to the NRA to stop the flow of illegal guns into our communities.

Join the thousands of others who have added their names to the NRA Blacklist by signing this petition to stop Congress from rolling back sensible gun laws.

The list itself:

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=15

Note that it is actually the National Rifle Association - Institute for Legislative Action, supposedly the policy / activism wing of the innocent neutral NRA.

First on the list is the AARP ... and it includes (just to take the organizations normal people associate with the advancement of racial equality and the interests of African-Americans; Jews and Christians aren't on their good side, either, e.g.):

National Association for the Advancement of Colored People
National Council of Negro Women
National Political Congress of Black Women
National Black Nurses` Association
Black Mental Health Alliance
Congress of National Black Churches, Inc.

If you scroll down to the individuals who have earned their own place on the blacklist, Maya Angelou is right near the top.

Hell, Ben 'n Jerry's and Hallmark Cards are apparently gunning for them, too. And don't get them started on CBS, NBC, the Chicago Trib ...


With that many enemies, is it any surprise they need gunz??

[Raineyb]

99. How exactly is allowing random morons to run out and shoot at people with no regard to anyone else

keeping the peace?

That man could have killed someone besides the burglars he was shooting at.

Regards

[iverglas]

64. Joe Horn Supporters Run Off Black Panthers

If anybody needs a really clear picture drawn for them of what this, and gun militancy in all its ugly glory, is all about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEZ9s0ZBAu8&feature=related

Don't miss the clip of O'Reilly explaining that the burglars were illegal aliens, too.

You might want to avoid clicking on the links in the info about that video. One of them is to stormfront.

[Politicalboi]

70. If breaking and entering

Were my line of work it might be to my best interest to find out what can happen if I get caught. I have no sympathy for these theives and I live in Ca. They stole in the wrong state. Had they done it here in Ca they would out by now breaking and entering other houses. Maybe we could have talked to them and changed their ways :sarcasm:

[fascisthunter]

75. Now FOlks Have the Ability to Murder and Call It Self Defense

really backward shit is going on in this country.... devolving into a third world country where vigilantes (bullies) police themselves. The most corrupt form of justice. Welcome to the Wild WIld West.... John Wayne is dead and was just an actor.

Also.... this condones the idea of giving a citizen the penalty of death for burglary. The death penalty!

[mitchum]

79. Just an occupational hazard of thievery which I'm sure the gentlemen considered before...

embarking upon their careers

[KneelBeforeZod]

92. Agreed, mostly ...

I don't completely agree with the law allowing someone to use deadly force in the defense of another person's property (as opposed to the person themselves), but --

I have a truly hard time summoning sympathy for two individuals who got caught burglarizing a home, and got killed in the process. At least in my mind, there is some assumption of risk here -- when you're a career criminal, you risk getting shot by a cop, a homeowner, and possibly a homeowner's neighbor who mistakes your simple theft for a threat to life.

Horn didn't go out looking for a fight. He was at home, minding his own business, and witnessed a crime in process -- and he took steps to stop it. He probably overstepped ... but I cannot say I'd have done anything differently.

KBZ

[Raineyb]

100. When he left his house to chase down the burglars he did go out looking for a fight.

Saying he probably overstepped is an understatement.

Regards

[KneelBeforeZod]

111. No ... he went out to defend the home of his neighbors ...

>> When he left his house to chase down the burglars he did go out looking for a fight.

Ridiculous -- he didn't even leave his home until after he witnessed the burglary. I would have an easier time arguing that the criminals were looking for a fight ... they're the ones that were somewhere they didn't belong, invading a residence and committing a crime. The fact that the home they were burglarizing was empty is pretty irrelevant -- they didn't know for sure it was empty until AFTER they entered. The fact that they lost the fight is similarly irrelevant ... they're the ones that went looking for a fight.

Horn wasn't just wandering around looking to shoot someone -- he was defending his property (as his occupied home could've easily been next) and his neighbors' property.

>> Saying he probably overstepped is an understatement.

Like I said, he probably overstepped. But, I have trouble summoning sympathy for two criminals that got caught in the act and shot by a homeowner. That's a hazard one must accept in order to commit home invasion and burglary.

Even though he overstepped, I am honestly not sure I'd have done anything differently than he did. I certainly couldn't just watch a neighbor's home be burglarized ... particularly if I were even remotely unsure if the house was occupied.

KBZ

[Raineyb]

123. Thereby putting himself deliberately in harm's way. aka Looking for a fight.

Ridiculous -- he didn't even leave his home until after he witnessed the burglary. I would have an easier time arguing that the criminals were looking for a fight ... they're the ones that were somewhere they didn't belong, invading a residence and committing a crime. The fact that the home they were burglarizing was empty is pretty irrelevant -- they didn't know for sure it was empty until AFTER they entered. The fact that they lost the fight is similarly irrelevant ... they're the ones that went looking for a fight.

You're being ridiculous, he left his home as the burglars were fleeing his neighbors home. That means they were leaving. The man called 911 and the operator told him to stay inside after Mr. Horn so gleefully said he was going to shoot someone. So we have someone ensconced in the safety of their home reporting a crime who goes out of his way to grab his gun and go "hunting." He already reported the crime. It was not necessary for him to put himself in harm's way to chase down these two men. You cannot claim self defense after you deliberately put yourself in harm's way and then claim you're not looking for a fight. That's at best disingenuous and at worse just plain asinine.

Being as burglars generally look for empty homes to rob it's a bit of a stretch to say they were looking for a fight. No one's saying that they are innocents in this scenario. However, burglary last I checked was not a capital offense and even if it were Mr. Horn last I checked was not the official state murderer (aka executioner.)

Horn wasn't just wandering around looking to shoot someone -- he was defending his property (as his occupied home could've easily been next) and his neighbors' property.

More nonsense. He was in his home. If they had broken into his home then he'd have every right to shoot them and claim self defense. That didn't happen. Horn saw the burglars leave, called 911 then left his house to chase down the burglars. That does not by any stretch constitute defending his own property. The second he left his home to go after these men he was looking for a fight. In essence, he was looking for someone to shoot and if his actions weren't enough to determine this fact the fact that he told the 911 operator his intentions ought to be.

Horn called the police it's not like he was just standing by idly. Leaving his home and shooting the burglars in the back was not only overstepping but criminal. The fact that Texas law refuses to acknowledge that does not change that fact. Mr. Horn is no better than the two men he shot in the back. In fact in my not so humble opinion he's worse. Things are replaceable. Lives, no matter what lengths you go to rationalize devaluing them, are not. Mr. Horn is a despicable murderer. There's very little if ands or buts about it in my book.

Regards

[Raineyb]

103. Are you saying it's open season on repo men too?

Do they not "steal" cars for a living? By this logic, a guy can see someone "stealing" his neighbor's car, call the police, tell the 911 operator that he's going after the "thief" (from the safety of his home), go outside, shoot the repo man and expect to get off scott free.

Lovely.
:sarcasm:

Regards

[mitchum]

110. No, that's not what I'm saying at all...

however, many occupations have the built in "fatal possibility": commercial fisherman, cop, taxi driver, late night convenience store clerk, repo man,iron worker, miner, and many more. People go into those occupations aware of that possibility.
You are dreadfully wrong; repo men do not "steal" cars for a living. The car belongs to the finance company,
not the delinquent party.
Yours is one of the shoddiest strawmen I have ever encountered.
Congratulations,

[Raineyb]

125. "Steal" being in quotation marks because they don't really steal the cars

The repo men often have to break into the cars to get them from the delinquent owners. From a distance anyone could mistaken the repo man for a car thief and as a result can easily end up in the same position in theory. But clearly you already knew that and just wanted to throw insults.

Congratulations, it must take quite a bit of work to come off as that big jerk. You must be a hit at parties.

Regards

[Arrowhead2k1]

84. That guy is a fucking murderer, self-defense my ass!

The operator pleads with him not to go out there, not to kill people over property, but then you can hear him tell the 911 operator that he plans to go out there and "kill em'" anyways. So it's even premeditated murder. He basically gave a death sentence to a couple of thieves and got away with it. This should have been an open and shut case with Joe Horn ending up doing some serious time. There is something VERY WRONG with the state of Texas.

[sui generis]

87. some days I wonder if I'm still on DU

way to empathize with your Texas compatriots folks. Way. To. Go.

Oh well, I'm equally shameless about my own judgements. "It could never happen here. Only in Texas."

We'll see who the last one ducking bullets is.

OH and by they way, dear alarmists: Why don't you step out and get to know your neighbors? Then and only then assume the crash position, and only if required.

As it stands in my neighborhood IN TEXAS we all look out for each other and I can tell you for a 100% certain fact there is nobody who would pull a gun on my street and try to play hero or go big game hunting.

Give the rest of us a little credit please.

[Doctor_J]

88. We know that, sui. I am happy that you live in a safe, sane neighborhood

But Texas and Florida have been headed for years toward this Wild West model - "I think someone's ripping off my neighbor. I'll shotgun him in the back. I'm in Texas and that's what we do here" that looks screwy to many of us in Old America. And for those of us who think the gun culture in this country is out of whack anyway, TX and FL are representative of that, and incidents like this are a symptom of a bigger problem.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pinniped]

106. I bet some of these dumbasses still feel this way about their piece of shit fake cowboy presinut.

"This is a real conservapuke county," he said. "A lot of folks in Houston and Harris County are saying this man was doing a good thing."

[Paladin]

116. A Few Comments On You People Who Are Defending Horn

1. It appears that you don't give much of a shit about the protections afforded by the Bill of Rights(with the very probable exception of the Second Amendment), nor the orderly administration of justice in this country, nor in publicly abandoning your status as decent human beings.

2. This is just further, dismaying proof that, no matter how outlandish or ugly the circumstances, there is virtually no instance of gun play by a citizen---short of a full-scale massacre at a public place---that won't be heartily defended and endorsed by a certain unfortunate segment of DU participants.

3. If you're this enthusiastic about this whole law-off-the-jungle scene, membership in the Democratic Party is not a good fit for you. You really ought to do yourselves and the rest of us a favor and find someplace other than DU to hang out. God knows, there are plenty of alternatives available to you.....

[KneelBeforeZod]

119. Strawman after strawman ...

>> 1. It appears that you don't give much of a shit about the protections afforded by the Bill of Rights(with the very probable exception of the Second Amendment), nor the orderly administration of justice in this country, nor in publicly abandoning your status as decent human beings.

Ridiculous hyperbolic nonsense. First, the right to self defense is pretty fundamental and predates the Constitution by centuries. Second, your understanding of Constitutional Law is quite flawed. The rights guaranteed in the Constitution are generally individual protections against the GOVERNMENT -- not against other individuals. We cannot seriously expect a person in an invaded home to read Miranda rights. Individuals are protected from other individuals by Federal and State Laws (mostly State) -- and this guy didn't violate any Texas laws.

I believe the right to self-defense is fundamental to an orderly society. We cannot expect victims to simply sit there and take it.

>> 2. This is just further, dismaying proof that, no matter how outlandish or ugly the circumstances, there is virtually no instance of gun play by a citizen---short of a full-scale massacre at a public place---that won't be heartily defended and endorsed by a certain unfortunate segment of DU participants.

More strawman nonsense. This wasn't "gun play" -- it was self-defense. Horn wasn't running about looking to shoot innocent people -- he shot two criminals that invaded a neighbors' home, and could've easily invaded his next. And, gladly, there is a certain segment of DU which subscribes to the right to self-defense. There are cases where a criminal can be justifiably killed in the act of committing a crime without his rights having been violated.

>> 3. If you're this enthusiastic about this whole law-off-the-jungle scene, membership in the Democratic Party is not a good fit for you. You really ought to do yourselves and the rest of us a favor and find someplace other than DU to hang out. God knows, there are plenty of alternatives available to you.....

Quite fortunately, you are in no position to make demands of me. I simply couldn't care less whether you believe I belong here or not.

KBZ

[okieinpain]

117. hey if you break into someone's home you're putting your life

in someone elses hands. sorry for them but there where other things they could have been doing besides stealing peoples property.

[skoalyman]

118. So would police had shot them in the back probably not they should have

considered that heck if they had a knife I would have at least wounded them in the legs the only way I would have killed them is if they had a gun.:shrug:

[Dimensio0]

120. You are clearly uneducated regarding proper firearms usage.

It is inappropriate and irresponsible to aim at any part of a human target other than the "center of mass", in the torso region. Aiming at an extremity, such as the legs, increases the likelihood that the attempted shot will miss, which in turn increases the risk of causing collateral damage. Additionally, the discharging of a firearm is legally considered "deadly force" regardless of the intended or actual target of the shot; as a shot to the legs -- even if successful -- constitutes no less "deadly force" in the eyes of the law as a shot to the torso, it is irrational to fire at any location other than the torso. If there is a legitimate need to employ "deadly force", then the shots should be placed as efficiently as possible toward that end; if there is no legitimate need to employ "deadly force", there is no justification for discharging the firearm at all.

[WriteDown]

121. I take it no one on DU has ever been burglarized....

I've been a lurker for quite a while. I'm as progressive as the next guy, but it is apparent that no one here has ever been burglarized. When I was burglarized, my neighbors watched as a crew of illegal immigrants loaded up a van full of 90% of my possessions and heirlooms. Not to mention this was after the fact they they kicked my dog and broke several of his ribs and leg. I haven't even been able to replace 1/10th of what was taken form me. I only wish I had someone like Mr. Horn living next door to me.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

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