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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 07:13 PM
Original message
Women Battle for Rights at Phoenix Country Club
Edited on Fri Jun-27-08 07:18 PM by RamboLiberal
Source: NY Times

When the men of the Phoenix Country Club saw their feeding ways in peril, they did not tarry. Some sent nasty e-mail messages, hectored players on the fairway, and, for good measure, urinated on a fellow club members pecan tree.
The targets of their ire were the women, and some men, who have dared to speak up against the clubs policy of forbidding women in the mens grill room, a center of power dining in Phoenix.

-----

Charges of sexism against private golf clubs are not uncommon; the Augusta National Golf Club in Georgia, where the Masters is held each year, does not permit female members.

But here in Arizona, where the governor, secretary of state, chief justice and Senate minority leader are women, it has rankled more than a few women that nonmember men have more rights than paying female members at the Phoenix Country Club, a century-old fixture in the citys social and business life where it costs tens of thousands of dollars a year to belong.

Gov. Janet Napolitano, a Democrat, is not a member of the club, but Dennis Burke, her chief of staff, is. Mr. Burke has publicly opposed the separated dining rooms, and in an interview called them indefensible. Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, does not belong to the club but has spoken there. (The McCain presidential campaign declined to comment on the separate dining rooms.) According to a 2007 club directory, his son, Andrew, is a member, along with scores of other notable Phoenix residents, including the rocker Alice Cooper.


Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/28/us/28countryclub.html...



Country clubs, still the bastions of misogyny and to the extent they can get away with it racism. One reason it was so laughable that Rove equated Obama to an elite country club member. Clubs like this they'd do their best to keep out the likes of Obama an Hillary. Must be a bunch of Limbaugh fans since they drug out the term Femi-Nazis for their women members who are protesting their antiquated policies.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Interesting and enlightening
There are still power networks like country clubs and the Bohemian Grove designed to keep the rich and powerful rich and powerful. :(
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Seriously. A bunch of little boys with their treehouse clubs and decoder rings.
This mentality pervades the upper echelons of power. It's sickening and their little cabals need to be broken up.

For years, the Maricopa County Dems have held a monthly luncheon at the sexist and racist Phoenix Country Club. Many of us complained about it. Right now the lunches are going on at another club while the PCC is remodeled. We're trying to get the Party to not go back until the club changes it's regressive policies.
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MikeNearMcChord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. I know in years past, there were calls to remove tax deductions for
Edited on Fri Jun-27-08 07:56 PM by MikeNearMcChord
membership dues to such clubs. I wonder if they ever panned out?
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. They're tax deductible??!?
I want my gym membership to be then, by god.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
33. No, they are not tax deductible.
Have not as long as I have been a tax CPA (8 years).
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Do they receive any tax abatements?
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's a private club
If you don't like the way things are done there, join a different club. I remember when Martha Burk and NOW protested the Masters golf tournament a few years ago. That was the best thing ever, because Augusta Country Club decided to not air any commercials during the tournament so there would be no sponsors to boycott. It was wonderfully refreshing to watch the event without commercial interruption. I was hoping they'd boycott every year so it would remain commercial-free.
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kimmylavin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Way to see the big picture.
:eyes:
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. What's the big picture?
I don't see why having a few places where men can congregate with other men is somehow a bad thing, but I'm open to hearing your view on the matter.
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kimmylavin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Because of the business.
The "power dining" that takes place there, that women are barred from partaking in.
The fact that membership dues are paid, and then privileges are denied based on gender.
Women do actually work these days, and its often said that most business deals are made in non-business settings, ie a golf course.
So a woman takes a client for a round of golf, and then cannot share a drink with him because she has been relegated to the ladies lounge, where she is expected to quietly play bridge with the spouses.

Look, I don't approve of the country club lifestyle. But I don't approve of discrimination, either. This is discrimination, and it can hold back (or even humiliate) women in the business world. Its not right.

(Lastly, the way these "gentlemen" want to protect their right to congregate with other men... threats, hectoring, calling someone's wife a "whore", defacement and urination? How is that okay?)
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. I see where you're going
But I think you're (possibly) overstating the importance of a private men's clubs in the overall financial picture. Or rather, how that importance could be applied.

What about the exclusivity of expensive courses that accept anyone, as long as they have the cash? I'd be rather set out of $500 greens fees, and would thus be denied the power-meetings that go on there. Which would presumably make me less competitive in the financial arena. By this argument, if they hold the keys to business prowess, they should let me in, even if I don't have enough money.

Discrimination is not right.

The men lashing out with the pee and what-not are jackasses.

But the business deal thing is probably the wrong road to argue on it. Straight out, "what, my money's no good here?" is a better tack, IMHO. Because the civilized world agrees "we don't serve your kind" is unacceptable.
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. The membership dues are voluntary
Edited on Sat Jun-28-08 12:33 PM by Rage for Order
Before you pay the dues, the benefits you will receive for paying your dues are laid out by the staff. There are dozens of high end golf clubs in the Phoenix area that a woman can take her client to, including this one.

Perhaps the men want an area where they can act like boys, telling (gasp!) sexist jokes, or scratch themselves below the waist and not have to worry about a hyper-sensitive woman filing a sexual harassment suit against them. Yes, men will make sexist jokes about women when women aren't around, and women certainly will make sexist jokes about men when men aren't around. Are you equally upset about this women's only club? If not, why not?

I don't agree with the manner in which some of the men are raising their objections to allowing women in, but you'll encounter assholes in all walks of life.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. Do you have "artisan" golfers? Men working at manual jobs? Are
Edited on Sat Jun-28-08 03:03 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
they allowed to dine anywhere in the club, or can they just play golf on the course?

I've got zero minus sympathy with women who eat their hearts out because the mean SOBs, the men, (and I expect they are) won't allow free rein to them to enjoy the same infinite lust for money and status that they, themselves, enjoy. When women get power, the last people they will give a leg up to, is other women. Thatcher was a prime example.

I thought men had a right to their own company and "locker-room" ethos, somewhere in their private lives, anyway, but when I read the actual reason for those women being up in arms, it almost beggared belief. It was the impingement of business advantages it might afford the males that upset them!

As for the vile personal behaviour of the worst of the males ('men' would be stretching it), that's criminal, but characteristic of some types with too much money and too little conscience. The world was never a just place, but women complaining that access to the grindstone to sharpen THEIR elbows as much as the male miscreants takes the pip.

On the other hand, denying women the use of a club restaurant, if that occurs, strikes me as sort of sick.
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BigDaddy44 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
29. Do you think private clubs with these types of policies should be banned?
If so, how do you think this should be enforced exactly?
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Kingofalldems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. The post didn't say anything about the practice being banned
You brought it up. Women are banned though, which doesn't seem to concern you. Way to change the subject.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Actually, there are bigger womens rights that are ignored by most womens groups
in the west




http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=650_1214521916



Pakistan ; Woman And Sharia Law 2008
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2ee_1214485437

But getting into a private country club ?

Now THATS the bigger picture that means the most to advancing womens rights in this world ;)


Why are womens groups so silent on real rights ?

Anybody think to ask those questions at the 19th hole ?
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kimmylavin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. And were we discussing that?
No, we were talking about discrimination in country clubs.
Like I said in another post, I don't approve of the country club lifestyle, and this does seem to be one of the sillier places to be fighting for women's rights.

But I was responding to his missing the bigger picture on this issue, that he was glad it happens as there are fewer commercials during a golf broadcast.

If you want to discuss women's rights in another country, start a thread, and we'll talk there.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
24.  YOU are talking about "privileged women" demanding access to a "privileged class" club
Such a minuscule population not really into advancing the rights of women imho.

I can't start a thread since major womens organization movements in this country never give opinions that make it into the MSM. I thought Hillary was going to debate womens rights but.....who knew her privileges to power would be revoked ?

but, for what it's worth, a biased source on womens rights...a little further from the privileged class and their country club links;

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=59359

a thread on that issue wouldn't exactly thread water would it ;)
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. Phx country club would not allow blacks or jews as members
until the mid 70s I think. Today valley jews will not use that country club due to their past policies and current policies regarding women members.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. How very progressive of you
:eyes:
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. What is the precise and relevant moral difference...
What is the precise and relevant moral (not legal) difference between this county club and a store sign which reads, "no niggers allowed!"?

Or, may we simply juxtapose your arguments into the realm of race which implies your tacit endorsements of color barriers in the private market...?
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bain_sidhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Don't be silly. Racism is unacceptable.
Sexism isn't.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. This seems so similar to Muslim segregation between men and women.
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Sabriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
11. If Dennis Burke speaks out against it...
...then why doesn't he also resign his membership?

Who would be a part of an organization that knowingly oppresses half the population?
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Who would be a part of an organization that knowingly oppresses half the population?







dunno

How many muslim women are out there willing to submit ?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Ha -- I thought the same thing!
I always found Tiger Woods a bit smarmy, but I've actively disliked him since the whole Masters thing. Lots of clubs have barred blacks from their premises, too -- except as service staff.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. There is a club here that banned Jews for years
Then about ten years ago, Tom Watson, who lives here and had been a lifelong member of that country club, resigned in protest. One of the Blochs (of H&R Block) lived right across the street from the club and couldn't join because he was Jewish. So Tom Watson resigned and voila! the club changed its policy banning Jews.

Is it any wonder that country clubs ban blacks when they don't even admit Jews? In the 21st century! It's nuts.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
16. Until about 3 mos ago, and only because of price, the Maricopa County Democratic Nucleus Club, the
fund raising arm of the Maricopa County democrats, had its monthly luncheon at the Phoenix Country Club. All the presidential candidates and most democrats of note spoke there. AG Terry Goddard spoke there many times. Janet Napolitano and Dennis Burke were both on the Board of Nucleus and met for those meetings. Janet was chair when she was AG( I think may have been Fed atty then) ) Our Governor spoke there on multiple occasions. I was a member for several years. I guess it proves the Dems really didn't care about sexism, or it wasn't an issue. I did not know about the policy at all. I would not have joined had I known.
Nucleus is now based at the Arizona Country Club. I wonder what their policy is?
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
17. I wonder what it would look like in smoke?
:smoke: Just wondering. :shrug:
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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. Many years ago while in college, younger son worked in elite CC-refused admission to Michael Jordan!
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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-27-08 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. O's suave, debonnaire style are traits that Rove will never enjoy - on the outside looking in...
Actually, props for NOT seeing race, which to me was the most surprising aspect of all
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. I worked at a golf club that refused Michael Jordan membership
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
23. I have been in country clubs where a bar/grill is connected with the men's locker room.
Not uncommon to see old, fat guys walking to the bar in towels to get a pop after coming off the course.

Not my idea of appetizing, but there it is.

Perhaps this is a similar setup?
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
30. Let 'em in...there's where the deals are made...
I remember watching an interview with one of the women who was having trouble during the VMI debacle. She was asked why she wanted "in." She said it was for the connections and contacts later in life. Suddenly it made sense to me. Women don't want to break down the bastions of "men-only" clubs just to do so; They simply want the perks that come from belonging to such institutions.

As a white, middle-aged male, I wasn't able to follow my dream and do what I wanted in life--to do what I spent years in school preparing for. But that was because I didn't make contacts and connections. I thought "hard work" and "achievement" was all I needed. Now while they are important, contacts and connections are as well.

Let them in and let them have the life they dreamed about and prepared for...
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
34. Country-club feminists.
Huh.

Y'know, if what you're fighting for is the right to belong to a country club, I can't help but think that you've kinda lost sight of the big picture.
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