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Purveyor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 03:51 PM
Original message
Marines Plan Urban Combat Training In Indiana Cities
Source: Associated Press

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) - About 2,300 Marines will take part in an urban combat training exercise in central and southern Indiana, including landing helicopters at Indianapolis shopping malls, parks and the state fairgrounds, officials said.

Most of the activities during the June 4-19 exercises will take place at central Indiana's Camp Atterbury, but Columbus, Seymour, Hope, North Vernon and Greensburg will also see activity.

--
"Our aim in Indianapolis is to expose our Marines to realistic scenarios and stresses posed by operating in an actual urban community, said Col. Mark J. Desens, the unit's commanding officer.

The troops will fire weapons, conduct patrols and react to ambushes in an unfamiliar urban environment.

--
The city of Indianapolis offered the Marines 26 sites for training, include Eastgate Mall, Bush Stadium and several city parks.

"I think it's very good training for them," said Indianapolis Mayor Greg Ballard, a retired Marine officer. "Actually, city fighting, urban fighting is really the most dangerous type of fighting there is."

Read more: http://www.therepublic.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSect...
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. I am uneasy about this
It feels like training them to be used against the population.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. You get used to shooting people out of uniform in an urban setting
It starts to not matter where you are or who's in the gun sight when you squeeze the trigger. But there will be plenty of folks inside and outside the military who will cheer you on, and rationalize your most heinous crimes as "defending freedom" or "protecting America," when what you're really doing is murdering another human being.

But that's not, like, in the official recruiting brochures or anything, so don't quote me.
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tctctctc Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Well yeah.
That's the idea. To mind control the Marines to shoot Americans, just in case there are civil problems. Posse Comitatus is the law...but we aren't a lawful society anymore. The military industrial complex controls Washington, DC.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. E X A C T L Y , ,, ,!!!!
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. Just wait until gas gets a bit scarcer and pricier
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. nothing else it could be, or feel like...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. What BushCo idiot came up with this idea?
Rumsfeld must still have an office in the basement at the Pentagram.
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ORDagnabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. The citizens of our country need to rise up and put an end to this madness.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
47. This is an Exercise in Putting an Uprising Down
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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. Just in time
for the next stolen election
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harcusaurus Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. Wake up! It IS training the military for enforcing martial law
It exactly what many people have been warning about. Training
the military for use against civilians.
Also an excellent stage for a false flag operation!
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diverdownjt Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. You got that right.
Anybody still think we are going to have an election?
These guys will not give up power.
Buy guns now while you can. :wtf:
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
58. Welcome to DU, harcusaurus. (n/t)
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greyghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. Just in time for the rioting that they know is coming. No food, shelter or
gasoline, the natives will be restless.
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. Oh, CALM DOWN! Every single MEU does this before they deploy
This exercise is done every six month at a difference city before a MEU deploys.

This exercise certifies that the Marines can do require missions in a urban setting that they can get on base. Past cities that have hosted this exercise include Columbia, New Orleans, Charleston, and Savannah.
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Nostradammit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Great! We should do them in every town
Once a month. We should let them fire live rounds down at the food court, just so they don't hesitate to shoot when they're in the real deal.

Sig Heil! America Uber Alles!
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Whether you like it or not, the soldiers and Marines need certain skills and training
before they are allowed to go and protect your right to say things like that.

These exercises happen about twice a year and are a very big deal. A lot of Marines hate it because we hate having to operate on US soil outside of base or training area.

Unfortunately, there aren't any bases with MOUT facilities that are big enough to accommodate this exercise, so we have to go off base.
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PSPS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Whatever
I'm sick and tired of mall shoppers taking away "my right to say things like that." Kill! Kill them all!
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Nostradammit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Kiss my red, white, and blue ass
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Are they "protecting my right to say" fuck all in Iraq?
Just wondering.
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Yes, Lynn they are.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Uh no actually, they sure as fuck are not.
You seem to have missed the past several years of facts.
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Actually, Lynn, I've been on the ground in Iraq twice in since '05 so I've gotten my
facts on the ground and not from behind a keyboard.

Go ahead and continue to scream like a child who isn't getting their way if you want to, but the truth is things in Iraq are getting better and the best course of action for the Iraqis and the US is a phased withdraw as the Iraqis continue to take over control of their provinces.
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Nostradammit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. Are you getting paid by the U.S. Government to post here?
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Its just another Troll with no Bio
Ignore the idiot I have
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tuckessee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #38
59. Bingo!
The poor shill isn't too bright and they've got him working overtime spewing standard apologist crap.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #32
49. I get my facts from my US military husband.
Edited on Fri May-30-08 09:17 AM by LynnTheDem
Not from "behind a keyboard".

Fact is, the US military is not in Iraq for my "freedoms".

Time you faced that fact.
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Jax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Don't confuse this one with the 'facts' Lynn
they won't matter.

I love the way you cut though the bullshit with these posts too.

:yourock:

Alyce
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Yup, cause I'll trust Lynn over my lying eyes
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #34
50. If you still think the US military is in Iraq for anything to do with our "freedoms"
Edited on Fri May-30-08 09:08 AM by LynnTheDem
then you have a far larger problem than your eyes lying to you.
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. Lynn, we're not going to agree on this issue so there is no point in discussing it any further
I understand you are completely against the war and want the troops pulled out yesterday.

I stated I disagreed with going in but I think we need to stay until Iraq can govern itself.

Why don't we leave it at that.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. I am against this illegal war of aggression; I want our troops out yesterday; what I REALLY want
Edited on Fri May-30-08 10:11 AM by LynnTheDem
is for us for once to do the right thing, which is to do what the people of IRAQ want us to do. And that is to get the fuck out. Long before yesterday.

And thanks much, but no, I won't "leave it at that". I can't stand by and watch someone disconnected from truth & reality. Truth & reality hurt, but you'll get over the pain.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #33
51. Well as we all know, facts have leftwing bias.
:rofl:

Thanks, Jax!

:hug:
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
40. Utter crap!
The only thing they are "protecting" is the ability to steal resources from other lands.

Btw, brainwashed people do not fair well here at DU.
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
52. They should train properly then
First off if they were truly concerned with "protecting" our rights the Patriot Act would not have passed, so please don't be insulting by using Bush talking points.

Secondly, you train as you will fight, unless the Marines are being trained to fight in US urban settings this is just a waste of time and money.

How about using NTC at Ft Irwin, lot of land out there where an actual Iraqi or Afghan town could be built, if they're going to spend the money they might as well spend it training the right way!

One last thing it's the responsibility of all Americans to protect their rights not just the military, who do you think started the fight for freedom, it was the citizens of the 13 colonies, not the military.

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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. To answer your post
1. The US military did not have anything to do with the Patriot Act.

2. You are partly right here. We do train as we fight. Here we are training to fight in a real world urban setting that cannot be imitated by a MOUNT facility in the middle of a base. I would also point out, that this is a MEU (SOC) training event. The MEU's have to be able to meet a bunch of different missions that a normal unit deploying to Iraq does not, ie evacuating an embassy (NEO) or doing humanitarian assistance. This ups the require for realistic training because a MEU could literally be the only US force in a country or region for 15 to 30 days.

3. Ft Irwin, Ft Polk and 29 Palms can only host so many exercises a year effectively. Also, you run into the same problems I mentioned above namely, the MOUNT facilities would have to be huge and expensive to build, when they are built they lack realism, (they just Concrete and CMU block buildings, with no interiors) and if you have been there before you know what to expect.
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tctctctc Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. It's ILLEGAL to run exercises outside of the bases.
That's Posse Comitatus.
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. No it is not. It is illegal to use the US military inside the US for offensive action, not exercises
Edited on Thu May-29-08 05:32 PM by wmbrew0206
We allowed to do exercises within the US, but there are all kinds of permissions you have to get to be able to do it.

The US Military is not allowed to be used for offensive action against US citizens, except in times of crisis, ie the civil war.

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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Then why do exercises in American cities? (if there are no plans to ever do battle in
American cities.)
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. Because to do realistic scenarios, you need a very large MOUT facility
Edited on Thu May-29-08 10:30 PM by wmbrew0206
that no base has.

MOUT operations are the most dangerous operations the military does because a small force can inflict a high number casualties on a much larger force. You need to practice doing these operations over and over and you can't do them in the same facility.

Training loses a lot if you run different scenarios over the same facility over and over. You get to know what is where and you can only change the facility so much. The realism that you need can only be provided by operating in a city where you can train over different areas in totally new areas. It allows you to train in a residential neighborhood to an inner city to a business district.

No bases can afford to build and maintain a MOUT facility that large. Plus when working in a city you have to deal with locals who have expert knowledge of the area while you don't. Everyone knows their base's MOUNT facility pretty well after the first month or two ofa work up. Before working in a city, the training cell goes out and meets with the locals and asks them to either be neutral, friendly, or bordering on hostile to the Marines that will be operating in their area. Sometimes they will be given a number to call to report on the Marines where abouts.

Also, obviously, NO LIVE ROUNDS are brought to this exercise.

A lot of work goes into working out the details of where and when the Marines can train. We know that if we screw anything up not only will the city not invite us back, but you are likely to be relieved.

Quick story: a MEU has practicing an air assault on a facility (in this case an abandoned school). The CH-53 pilots who flew them in thought they had the right school and landed their helo's and disembarked their Marines. When the Marine Officer in charge of the force saw kids at the windows, he realized they were at the wrong school and radio'd it in. Word had it the Marine Colonel in charge of the MEU, took off his rank insignia and said "Well, it was a hell of a career" and walked out of the COC thinking he'd be fired for allowing his force to land at the wrong school. It didn't happen but it shows how seriously we take training in the US outside of a base.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. I just have never go over the image
of the national guard being ordered by the general to lower their weapons when they were rolling thru NOLA. They have been more militarized at this point more so than in my lifetime. So it does make me uneasy when the actual military is conducting training operations here. It is a visceral thing. And I was raised a military brat and my first husband was military which shows me how much things have changed in my lifetime.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. "except in times of crisis"
You may have been in Iraq when this went down, but... I think the President now reserves the right, at his sole discretion, to determine what is and is not a "crisis" requiring US military deployment within US territory. Now, think about that possibility and apply it to the post to which I'm responding. As someone who has served, in light of what I'm referring to, you ought to be more concerned about this than we are.

If "your Commander in Chief" were to issue an order occupying American cities and "postponing" the upcoming election, for whatever reason, would you follow those orders? Would postponing the upcoming election make the current Commander in Chief of the armed forces of the United States a domestic enemy in your eyes?

I'm just curious.
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. I won't say never, but it would take a Massive event to even consider operaterating
Edited on Thu May-29-08 10:40 PM by wmbrew0206
inside the US. That is what the national guard, FBI, ICE, DEA, and ATF is for.

It would take a major, major event (we're talking much bigger than 9/11 in scale) for the military to even consider operating inside the US. Even then, I think it would take Congressional approval or a ruling from the SCOUS for the CJCS to even consider it.

The only think I can think of where it would even be a possibility would be a biological weapon attack. I could see the military being asked to enforce quarantines that the police, NG, etc, couldn't handle it on their own.
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
37. That's true. It is illegal. But what people are worrying about...
Edited on Thu May-29-08 08:12 PM by seawolf
(Probably needlessly, but with all the shit the neo-cons in government have pulled, I honestly can't blame folks for being jumpy.)

(I'm speaking as a civilian, so if I'm mistaken on points of military procedure, behavior, or law, feel free to correct me.)

...the fact that it would be illegal use of elements of the military, but the people (probably neo-con elements of the government working through a suborned general or two) giving the orders wouldn't care. I say elements, because 95% of the military would refuse to take action against US citizens. Problem is, I suspect about 5% (evangelicals, racists, people willing to obey any order) would. Transfer members of that 5% out of their units and put together new ones composed of just the 5% (is that possible, legally or illegally?), give them some time to train together, sic them on the citizenry (probably out of uniform)... Yeah, the rest of the military would turn on the traitors as soon as the news broke, but that'd be too late for a lot of people.

You see what's worrying people?
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
41. Er, the PC law restricted military use for law enforcement
Militaries practice in civilian territory all the time. I'll still raise an eyebrow at just about any MOUT training the US military does in its own cities for a variety of other reasons, but that sort of thing's mostly a non-issue in my own neck of the woods (and happens rarely enough anyway).
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
61. Can you cite the text of the law which forbids this?
:shrug:
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
31. PLease explain further. Are you saying that 15 years ago they did this?
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
46. I don't think 15 years, but these exercises have been going on in cities for a long time.
My MEU (22d MEU) did our in Columbia, SC in '03.
www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2003/11/mi...

The next MEU skipped theirs due to an early deployment date for Iraq.

The 26th MEU did their in New Orleans in '04.
www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2004/12/mi...

Here is more info on MEU's:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Expeditionary_Unit
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #46
56. Thank-you. According to the definitions, this is standard training then, not something new.
The newness, to us, is what is scary.
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. I completely understand. If you didn't know this happens twice a
year, then seeing this would defiantly be worrisome, especially in an election year.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. Military exercises in shopping malls?
Well, they sure picked a good area of the country to conduct it. Many southern Hoosiers will stand by and cheer on this oppressive expression of the military.
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tctctctc Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Many Hoosiers are dumbed down.
Indiana seems to be the 'state of choice' to override federal and state laws with NEOCON illegal activities.

Indiana has been a 'test state' involving 'social models' for FEMA. Indiana would be less likely to resist Martial Law agenda under any circunstances. The media needs to show 'compliance' to the rest of the country, so Indiana will be a 'first stage' of (NEOCON) operations.
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AwakeAtLast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
42. The shopping mall cited is no longer open.
I'm still not excited about it, but at least it's not a mall that is open for business.
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Prisoner_Number_Six Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
19. Sometimes I regret having been born a Hoosier
They have the highest cop to citizen ratio I've ever seen- far higher even than Texas! (I have no official figures on that, only personal observation, having lived in Indiana for twenty plus years and in Texas for eight...)
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Ferd Berfle Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
20. If it walks like a duck.....





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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
22. GREAT idea!
Edited on Thu May-29-08 06:04 PM by LynnTheDem
:sarcasm:

Then they'll be all set to kill Americans when we finally decide enough of this bullshit decidership is fucking enough.

Or when the insane lunatic King gEorge decides to really fuck us all by attacking Iran. Or Syria. Or both.
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conspirator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
23. What do the gun control supporters think of this? n/t
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
27. They're also teaching them the "Hi Li Hi Lo" marching song
Bad sign.
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Dyedinthewoolliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
36. This is creepy!
eom
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Bush_MUST_Go Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. What if the residents stay away from the places these exercises are scheduled?
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
60. Turned out that this training was a good thing!
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