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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 05:12 AM
Original message
Ecuador: U.S. supported Colombian cross-border raid
Source: AP

Ecuador: U.S. supported Colombian cross-border raid
Posted 9h 31m ago


QUITO, Ecuador (AP) Ecuador's Defense Minister says there are "well-founded" reasons to believe the U.S. aided Colombia's air force in a cross-border raid on a rebel camp in Ecuador's jungle last March.

Javier Ponce says Colombia's president needs to clarify what happened during the raid, claiming that the U.S. government "was the first to congratulate him for violating our territorial sovereignty."

Ecuador severed diplomatic ties with Colombia following its attack on a guerrilla camp in Ecuador that killed 25 people, including a rebel leader, Ecuadorean and four Mexicans.

President Rafael Correa accused the CIA of infiltrating Ecuador's intelligence services in April.




Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-05-08-ecuador-u...
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. If I were a betting man
I would bet that US weapons, awacs, navigation, and money were used to kill FARC personnel. We kill communists in latin america, long running policy.

Now I would be really surprised if a M4 stamped "Property of US Government" turns up..

The CIA, if doing its job, had access to his intelligence service long before April.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well, some of us refuse to accept this "long running policy".
It is a violation of international law and it is immoral. The United States has no right meddling in the political affairs of other countries.

I cannot imagine a scenario under which you would accept attacks within the borders of the U.S. by a foreign government.

I detect the stench of hypocrisy.

It's time for our government to stop creating justifications for terrorist attacks against our country.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. FARC is on the list
that allows the US and others to kill them. Hezbollah and others who have killed Americans are subject to an ex-judicial response.

However no US entity would admit that they had any part in killing a person on states list of terrorist groups.

The US and the rest will continue to meddle as long as our interest is served.

I wonder if that data they took is more valuable than the sock puppet who wound up dead.

Will have to wait a decade or two to find out.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. "The US and the rest will continue to meddle as long as our interest is served."
"Our interests" conflict with the interests of those whose societies and countries are damaged by the policies of our government. Many countries in Latin America have suffered as a direct result of the continuous covert wars against political movements there. Those wars are a violation of international law, as well.

You refuse to acknowledge international law for some reason, and you prefer to regard current events in a context that does not allow for the examination of the history behind those events. I don't understand that attitude.

I wish your messages were more legible. Often, it is rather difficult to decipher them.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. This is not a personal choice
the foreign policy of the united states is not dictated by me. I choose not to discuss it in a manner that I can control it. However for decades we have and will continue to manipulate world events to serve what is considered our best interest.

The USSR and the US played war in latin america. They funded communists and killed people. We funded governments and killed people. They supplied arms, we supplied arms.

The law is there but toothless, what is presently published in best sellers generally acknowledges past covert actions all over the world.

My attitude is one of realism. The US, and other powerful nations, will continue to use money and force to intervene. Some will serve our interest, some will backfire.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. We all have an obligation to "dictate" the policies of our government.
We do, after all, reside in a presumed democracy. The treaties we sign with other countries are the framework of international law and is therefore the law here as well. It is our duty to see that our government abides by its obligations. International law is toothless because far too many Americans either don't understand the effects of our governments policies, or like you, they simply don't care.

You can't hide behind "that's just the way it is".
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. One would hope as Latin America continues to get stronger, more unified,
Edited on Fri May-09-08 03:12 PM by Judi Lynn
murderous meddling by foreign interests will be less and less successful.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Chavez threatens to intervene in Boliva
is this what you mean?


Hugo Chvez amenaza con intervenir en Bolivia si prosperan intentos separatistas
http://www.eltiempo.com/internacional/latinoamerica/not ...

Foto: Archivo / EL TIEMPO
El presidente venezolano Hugo Chvez amenaz con intervenir militarmente en Bolivia si "los intentos separatistas persisten". El mandatario venezolano advirti que si la "oligarqua" boliviana insiste en sus intentos, podra comenzar "un Vietnam, dos Vietnames o tres Vietnames en Amrica Latina".

Chavez threatened to intervene military in Bolivia if "the separatists attempts persist." Chavez warned that if the bolivian oligarchy insists in their efforts it could initiate "a Vietnam, two Vietnams, or three Vietnams in Latin America."

Chvez asegur que el referndum organizado el pasado domingo en la regin boliviana de Santa Cruz (considerado ilegal por el gobierno), en el que los votos a favor de un estatuto autonmico fueron mayoritarios, es un "plan contra Sudamrica" que pasa por Ecuador y Venezuela, donde, segn Chvez, existiran tambin intentos separatistas similares.

En un tono especialmente duro, Chvez asegur que llegado el caso su pas no se quedar inmvil "con todo lo que esto implica".

In an especially hard tone, Chavez assured if that occurs, Venezuela wouldn't remain immobile "with all that that implies."

"Ah s, es verdad, acsenme de injerencia de una vez. Me declaro culpable desde ahora mismo. Si algo llega a ocurrir se rompen sencillamente las reglas del juego. Ojal que no nos obliguen", asegur.

"That's it, its true, you can go ahead and accuse me of interjecting. I declare myself guilty from here on. If something happens the rules of the game are torn apart. Hopefully it won't obligate us." he assured.


"Nuestra vocacin integracionista nos obliga, nuestra propia historia nos obliga a hacer estas reflexiones. Ojal con esto contribuyamos a disuadir. Entre todos podemos disuadir estos planes. Slo unidos, nosotros podremos frenar esos planes", asegur.

Los ministros de 12 pases sudamericanos se reunieron este jueves en Caracas para establecer las bases de un plan de seguridad energtica para la regin. En la declaracin final del encuentro hay una mencin especial para Bolivia, en la que se subraya
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Shame on you
How dare you besmirch Saint Hugo's reputation by pointing out that he's a dedicated meddler in the internal affairs of his neighbors.

I'm sure the chorus of Chavez idolizers are lining up to tell you that you're ignorant and they know more about what's going on in Latin America from two thousand miles away.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Your link doesn't work. I'm getting an 'error' page.
What is El Tiempo? It appears to be a Colombian outlet. Are there any other sources for this item? Can you perhaps post one in English so it can be researched by those of us who do not read Spanish?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I have a partial answer for you, but first, a photo of the Santos cousins, with their tiny leader!


11 months ago: From left to right, Colombia's Vice-President Francisco Santos, President
Alvaro Uribe and Defense Minister Juan Manuel Santos attend the swearing-in ceremony of
new police chief Gen. Oscar Naranjo, not seen, in Bogota, Friday, May 18, 2007. Uribe
defended Wednesday his vice president and defense minister against accusations of former
paramilitary commander that they conspired with illegal right-wing militias in the late 1990s.


http://www.daylife.com/photo/03L96KI00Bh2x

~~~~~~~~~~

Now for biographical info. on the Defense Secretary, Juan Miguel Santos. Aim for the yellow highlighted material at the end:
Juan Manuel Santos Calderon (b. 10 August 1951, in Bogota) is a Colombian politician currently serving as Minister of National Defense.

Biography
Early life
Juan Manuel Santos spent most of his childhood in Bogota and attended Middle School and High School at Colegio San Carlos. His last years of high school were spent as a Cadet in the Escuela Naval de Cartagena (Naval Academy of Cartagena), where he was a classmate and superior of the FARC-EP guerrilla leader known as Simon Trinidad. He continued his studies in the University of Kansas obtaining a degree in Economy and Business Administration. He later acquired masters in Economy, Economic Development and Public Administration in the London School of Economy and Harvard University.

He earned scholarships from the Fulbright Fundation in the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy and from the Nieman Foundation for Journalism at Harvard University. He has been awarded an Honoris Causa doctorate in Law.

Career
Juan Manuel Santos has been Chief Executive of the Colombian Coffee Delegation to the International Coffee Organization in London, Sub-Director of his family owned newespaper El Tiempo and a columnist for 14 different newspapers. He was Minister of Foreign Trade during the administration of president Cesar Gaviria in 1991. In 1992 he was appointed President of the VII United Nations Conference on Trade and Development for a period of four years. In 1999 he was appointed as President of the United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean (ECLAC) and got to be Director of the Corporacion Andina de Fomento (CAF) for the period 2001-2002.

Santos also founded the Social National Unity Party (aka Party of the U) to support the presidency of Alvaro Uribe. He has been the Minister of Defense since 19 July 2006.

Philantropy
In 1994 Juan Manuel Santos founded the Good Government Foundation with the main objective of helping and improving the governability and efficiency of the Colombian Government.

Family
Santos is part of one of the most traditional families in Colombia. His granfather's brother Eduardo Santos was President of Colombia from 1938 to 1942 and owner and Director of the newspaper El Tiempo. His father Enrique Santos has been editor of this newspaper for at least 50 years. His cousin Francisco Santos is President Alvaro Uribe's Vice President.
http://www.mundoandino.com/Colombia/Juan-Manuel-Santos

~~~~~~~~

Would you say, after reading this, that El Tiempo is likely to be carrying any respectable information on Uribe's government?

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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. well, there is more than one newspaper in Colombia
http://www.elespectador.com/noticias/judicial/articulo-...

break out your google translator


Mindefensa ratifica relacin de funcionarios del gobierno venezolano con las Farc
Por: Redaccin y AP
El ministro de Defensa, Juan Manuel Santos, asegur que muchas veces han entregado al gobierno venezolano las coordenadas donde supuestamente se encuentra el miembro del secretariado, Ivn Mrquez, pero no ha pasado nada.

Defense Minister ratifies relationship between venezuela and the FARC

The Defense Minister, Santos, assures that many times they have delivered the venezuela government the coordinates where a member of FARC leadership, Ivan Marquez, is presumed to be located, but "nothing happens".



Chavez and his FARC buddy
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Yes, now I recall.
El Tiempo is owned by the family of the Defense Minister of the current government of Colombia, who just happens to be the cousin of the Vice President.

I'm not surprised that that poster would utilize such a source. I see that he has posted another link to a Colombian outlet. Doubtless it has a similar degree of credibility to the first one.

Thanks.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. another one for you
from the Spanish paper EL Pais

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/internacional/papeles/FA...

Los papeles de las FARC acusan a Chvez
El ordenador de Ral Reyes revela la colaboracin del presidente con la guerrilla
MAITE RICO (ENVIADA ESPECIAL) - Bogot - 10/05/2008


Documentos en poder de EL PAS extrados del ordenador de Ral Reyes -el nmero dos de las FARC muerto en un ataque el 1 de marzo-, revelan que el presidente venezolano, Hugo Chvez, financi y arm a la guerrilla colombiana y le pidi que adiestrara a grupos afines al chavismo en la lucha armada. Este artculo es el primero de una serie.

Documents under the control of EL Pais extracted from Raul Reyes, the number 2 of the FARC, reveal that Chavez financed and armed the colombian guerrillas and asked them to train groups associated with Chavez.

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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Do you have one from *outside* of Colombia? n/t
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. yes, the link you questioned was from Spain, certainly outside of Colombia
from my recollection.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. No.
It appears the story originated from Bogot.

You can stop now. Your credibility was destroyed long ago.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. from the El Pais correspondents in Bogota, that would make sense wouldn't it?
hello?????
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Then post one in English.
Or are you only interested in creating distortions and distractions?

Yes, I think that's it.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. It only makes sense to people with brains
However, quoting a source that contradicts some ill-conceived beliefs is immediately labeled false, despite any accuracy in the report.

There's a bunch of whiners around here that confuse rhetoric with truth. Their debating skills are non-existent, and if they had any, they would suck.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. You need to stop now - you are making yourself look silly. nt
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. but we have an "allowed" list!
just like Lord Palmerston and Harry Rawson!
:crazy:
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Communist?
I think you are showing your age my friend. Are you and the Vlad having a nostalgia moment for the good ol days? Remember, you can never go home again. :)
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. Of course we did
Our Gov't is upset that South America is drifting from our influence...and they are doing better!

Colonialism benefits one entity and one only- The ruling class of the colonizing country.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. What are the "well-founded" reasons?
Didn't see that reported.

Maybe Ecuador should ask for US support to locate FARC camps inside the country so that the Ecuadorean defense forces can bomb them.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. "Ecuador should ask for US support "
Why do we have to consider any human been on earth inferior or incapable of doing good for them selfs?
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. Correa considerar una accin de guerra el ingreso de las FARC a Ecuador
<snip>

El presidente de Ecuador, Rafael Correa, advirti hoy a las Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia (FARC) que no pongan un pie en Ecuador, pues una entrada en territorio de su pas ser considerada "una accin de guerra".

En un encuentro con corresponsales extranjeros, Correa seal: "le digo a las FARC: ya basta, no pongan un solo pie en territorio ecuatoriano".

"No vamos a permitir que ninguna fuerza regular o irregular extranjera ultraje suelo ecuatoriano. Si nosotros encontramos patrullas, campamentos de las FARC en suelo ecuatoriano, ser considerado una accin de guerra", recalc.

<snip>

http://www.adnmundo.com/contenidos/politica/correa_farc...
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
13. Does anyone know when we will get our ignore list back?
For cripe's sake! It's been four days.

(This is not pointed at you, Judy. Although you probably know who I mean.)
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Ha ha. I think I've got a fairly clear idea, Pastiche! I've been thinking about that, too.
Who couldn't use some peace and quiet for dealing with the real DU'ers, instead of embedded senior brats?

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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #18
27. What's a "real DUer?"
Is that someone who doesn't challenge your misleading and ill-informed pro-FARC, pro-Chavez propagandizing?
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Mudoria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Nailed it!
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