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Popol Vuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 03:14 PM
Original message
Spain demands return of $500 million treasure
Source: MSNBC

MADRID, Spain - Spain is demanding a U.S. deep-sea exploration firm turn over the entire $500 million treasure it salvaged from a shipwreck, saying Thursday it has determined the vessel is definitely Spanish.

--snip--

Spain also argues the entire treasure should be returned as it was never really abandoned.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24521046 /



So the thief is suing, claiming ownership rights to lost stolen property? If Spain wins, then doesn't it seem like Mexico and other Latin American countries should sue Spain?
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ORDagnabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. shouldnt that be returned to the New World where spain stole it from?
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Same applies to all of the gold ornamentation
in the Vatican.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. yes they stole a lot of gold from the natives
And at the same time burned heretics at the stake

They are the personification of evil
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. The 1500s, an era of near universal evil.
A historian once told me, in the 1500 and 1600s if he had a choice he would have lived in Spain rather than in England. In Spain you had the Spanish Inquisition, which demanded FACTS before executing you. i.e. they had to convict you of being a heretic and needed statements from living people as to those heresy before they would even torture you.

In England, and most of Northern Europe, at the same time period, you had Witch Trials, where "spectral" evidence was permitted in (As in the Salem Witch Trials). Given the choice, I prefer to go with a system that demanded as least REAL evidence that I was doing something illegal to a system where reports form evil spirits were permitted in.

As the Witch trials slowly disappeared over Northern Europe, the Inquisition lost power in Spain. The Last Inquisition Trial was in the 1830s, but even then FACTS had to be produced that the Defendant was breaking the law. The Inquisition had lost much of its power in the 1700s, but revived during the Napoleonic wars (As a reaction to the Conquest of Spain by Napoleon).

One last comment, do NOT use today's standards to previous centuries actions. Look at those periods with at least an understanding of what was going on during that time period. Taking Gold from weak groups was perfectly legal in that period. The US actual made a historical jump when we accepted that fact that the Native Americans had a right to this land and we had to pay them for it. We did NOT pay full value and stole a good part of it, but at least we LEGALLY said we had to pay something. When England in Canada, Australia, New Zealand made no such claim (till recently i.e, since the 1990s NOT the 1690 when it already was the rule in what was to become the United States).
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Interesting that they would want to open that can of worms..
oy, the irony.
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indio55555 Donating Member (144 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. I lost $10 few years ago...
Who ever finds it I demand you return it to me.
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King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Was that yours?
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Popol Vuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Can you describe it?
:P
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. It'll got m'name "E Pluribus Unum" writ on it somewheres or tother
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King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Seems to me they should sue England.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. WTF has England got to do it
Edited on Thu May-08-08 03:38 PM by edwardlindy
you merry old soul. :)

edit - oh yes, we sunk it !
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. Spain has had several completely different governments since that ship sank
The company that found the treasure should tell them to pound sand.
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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R -- I hope Bolivians are hearing all about Spain's anger
Especially the descendents of the mine slaves.
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barnel Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. finders keepers
losers weepers
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. It's called Marine Salvage Law
A pure or merit salvage award will seldom exceed 50 percent of the value of the property salved. The exception to that rule is in the case of treasure salvage. Because sunken treasure has generally been lost for hundreds of years, while the original owner (or insurer, if the vessel was insured) continues to have an interest in it, the salvor or finder will generally get the majority of the value of the property. While sunken ships from the Spanish Main (such as Nuestra Seora de Atocha in the Florida Keys) are the most commonly thought of type of treasure salvage, other types of ships including German submarines from World War II which can hold valuable historical artifacts, American Civil War ships (the USS Maple Leaf in the St. Johns River, and the USS Monitor in Chesapeake Bay), and sunken merchant ships (the SS Central America off Cape Hatteras) have all been the subject of treasure salvage awards. Due to refinements in side-scanning sonars, many ships which were previously missing are now being located and treasure salvage is now a less risky endeavor than it was in the past, although it is still highly speculative.

It pretty much means "finders keepers"
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
13. 19th Century?
And most of the booty came from Latin America in the first place. It was being hauled back to Spain.

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JasonBlatt Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
14. Spain should return everything it looted from Latin America....
Europe has so much to atone for when it comes to this type of thing that to even ask is ridiculous....

Spain, Britain especially, and other colonial master countries should all commit to returning their stolen goods to colonies that have since become stable democracies....there is no question India is going to be going after the UK on this when the time is right....and rightfully so.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. no question India is going to be going after the UK
I'da thunk they had enough post offices and corner shops already. You might need to be english to understand that.
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not fooled Donating Member (553 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. er, modern equivalent of gold...
Good thing oil can't be returned :P
otherwise the USA and Europe will be in big trouble
with many regions of the planet currently being
looted by transnational oil cos.
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bpj62 Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
15. Insurance
The issue is going to come down to insurance and who got paid. Also the fact that the ship was sunk during battle will come into play. Mel Fisher went through this back in the 70s when he found all the gold from the Atocha and several other Spanish Galleons that sank during a hurricane in the Straits of Florida. He fought a long battle with both the US and Spanish government, but he eventually won. However several members of his family died during the salvage and he died shortly after winning the verdict. Many people felt that the fight killed him. If you are ever in Key West go to the Mel Fisher museum.
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conspirator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
16. The US firm should tell the spanish: "porque no te callas?" nt
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Go away and procreate
might be more appropriate.
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 05:03 AM
Response to Original message
19. This hasn't worked for the Egyptians.
Edited on Fri May-09-08 05:04 AM by onager
They've been trying to get back the bust of Nefertiti (from Germany) and the Rosetta Stone (from Britain) for decades. Along with many other antiquities that were stolen or given away.

The longtime ruler of Egypt in the 19th century, Mohammed Ali, liked to give away priceless antiquities, especially when he was trying to get loans from Western nations. Those loans eventually led to Egypt becoming a British colony for 70 years.

I'm writing from Alexandria, Egypt, about 30 km from Rosetta (or Rashid, to most Egyptians). A reproduction of the Rosetta Stone is displayed at Ft. Julien, where the original was found. Multi-lingual placards note, rather frostily, that the British grabbed the original and won't give it back.

A more amazing sight at Ft. Julien: walking up a stone stairway built by Napoleon's soldiers. Look down at your feet, and you'll notice you are treading on ancient hieroglyphics. The French soldiers just grabbed anything lying around and used it for building materials when they were reinforcing the fort.

They might have done that with the Rosetta Stone, but fortunately somebody noticed the Greek letters on it and pulled it out of a scrap heap.
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Yeah, onager, but in defense of the French -
they weren't doing anything that the Egyptians hadn't been doing for a long time.

Reduce, reuse, recycle . . .

(I know, I know - I'm being glib . . .)
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
21. If it's in international waters, they have no claim. nt
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