Clark Hints at Bush's Military Service

[robbedvoter]

Clark Hints at Bush's Military Service
TOM RAUM
Associated Press
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/7736332.htm
PEMBROKE, N.H. - Wesley Clark suggested Saturday that questions remain about President Bush's Vietnam-era service in the Texas Air National Guard, but the retired general stopped short of endorsing a comment by actor-director Michael Moore that Bush was "a deserter."

snip

"I want to see that debate: the general versus the deserter," Moore said to enthusiastic applause at a packed rally in a high-school gymnasium, reiterating a line he uses frequently.

Clark, asked later by reporters if he agreed with Moore's characterization of Bush as a "deserter," said: "I've heard those charges. I don't know whether they're established or not. He was never prosecuted for it. The question in this election is can we bring a higher standard of leadership to America."

The exchange recalled a controversy that was an element of the 2000 presidential campaign.More

B

[lazarus]

1. What's even more important

The AP actually printed this:

"Bush spent most of his time in the Guard based near Houston, but in May 1972 he received a three-month assignment in Alabama with the 187th Tactical Recon Unit in Montgomery while he worked on a political campaign in the state.

Retired Gen. William Turnipseed, a commander at the Alabama base, said during the 2000 presidential campaign that he never saw Bush appear for duty for that unit's drills. Bush maintains he was there, but records have never been produced to document that Bush was there."

[Terwilliger]

3. oooooooo

not a small blurb to forget...at least the whore media has to acknowledge the facts when they're brought up

[MaineDem]

38. Is "Turnipseed" his real name???

Oh my.

[TankLV]

43. Working on a political campaign!

THAT is the issue that I wish more people would make a deal out of!

Just how many grunts do you know that can take advantage of a sweet deal like that?

"Uh, I can't go fight this time, gotta go back to campaign for some repuke running for office." Yeah, that's the ticket!

Can we publicize this to make clear to ALL our troups that this is a valid, honerable & viable alternative to risking your butt in combat?

[whathappened]

2. is there no record

of jr service to be found no where , if not there should be , anybody that goes for a job has to state there records on there job app

[lazarus]

6. There is

There's plenty of record that he served. Interestingly, he stopped taking physicals as soon as a drug test was required. He stopped appearing for duty soon after.

Also interesting is the other person in his squadron to do so: James Bath. Bath later became the US representative of the bin Laden family, and the man who gave Bush the seed money to start his first company, Arbusto.

But that's all a coincidence, so stop thinking what you're thinking.

[H2O Man]

14. I've forgotten already!

These things happen .... over and over .... but it can't mean ... huh?

[slater71]

40. See if this helps

http://www.kings.edu/twsawyer/awol/awol-bush.html

[jmowreader]

4. Clark's got the right idea

Yes, it's important to note that Bush is a deserter. Shows both Bush's integrity (none) and that...ummm...because there's no statute of limitations on desertion, and he did it during wartime, he could be convicted and lined up against the wall at any time.

However! All the shit he's pulled in the last three years is more important. Let's get him on crap he's doing now--illegal wars, not supporting the troops once the wars kick off, depleting the Treasury--and, once he's safely in Terre Haute where he can't hurt anyone ever again, we can go after him on the desertion, coke, etc., etc., etc., charges.

[Ilsa]

16. I think Clark has the right idea also:

let the others take jabs at Bush for his military record while the General says only "questions remain". Going negative can backfire as it turns many people off. I love that he's negative on Bush, but it might cause some undecided voters to disconnect.

[Guaranteed]

26. I totally disagree.

This just looks to the independent voter like a lack of confidence in one's information/opinions. It's like, "Well....it kind of looks like Bush MIGHT have never showed up to his ANG stint in Texas...but, you know, I don't want to talk about that, because- well, it might not be true. And, I'm afraid."

[CJCRANE]

44. Not really...

notice Clark says "he was never prosecuted for it". Clark's just matching the Rovian tactics of putting an idea out there without actually making a direct claim that be counter-attacked (or being branded a "Bush-hater" or conspiracy theorist).

[PaDUer]

5. ALL the facts

about * should come out..none of this playing games...What's it going to take for the candidates to expose * for what he is and let his track record be known..The more games any of the D's play, the worse it is for us, the people...Am sick of the D's talking this, that, and whatever, we need action fast because it's the people who are suffering..You don't see any of these guys going without as the people are..

[reprobate]

58. And just what media will print, picture, or speak it?

The 'fair and balanced' media that would NOT even mention it in the last presidential elections?

No, I think it's up to our candidates to introduce it. When they ALL start talking about it the media may pick up the chant, but it's up to our candidiates to start the ball rolling. The media pudits keep saying that the democrats have not put forth any new message. Well, this is new to the media, and if we put it out there lets see if they run with it.

[bobbieinok]

7. 'an element of the 2000 presidential campaign'??????????

What nerve to say that!!!!!

It was reported in the Boston Globe in Feb 2000 ....... and no mention afterward on any TV discussion. Just one or 2 articles in newspapers.

I knew several democratic organizers who freaked out on election nit when I asked them if they knew about this.

And I heard many people who praised W's 'military service'....and if they were told Gore had been in VN, they brushed it off: 'he was just a military reporter; he was only there 7 months'.

[trackfan]

24. I second your reaction n/t

[annagull]

46. An element? How about calling it what it was: a secret

Our press is truly dead, they just make shit up these days.

[ignatius]

50. That was my thinking as well, the issue that I remember the

media going on and on about was Gore claiming he invented the internet. I watched the debates, read our paper and watched the evening news and I do not remember this being mentioned even once.

Now I know to check the internet for other sources outside of Indiana and CNN.. If one good thing comes out of the last three years of Spacemonkey's regime, it will be that many more will take a more active roll in politics.

[Nlighten1]

8. Wow...

Gen Clark did some fancy foot steps there. :) It was like MC Hammer - "Can't touch this"

[NNN0LHI]

10. You described it very well n/t

[Nlighten1]

12. Thanks!

It seemed appropriate.

[Zero Gravitas]

9. What Military Service?

He spent some time in a National Guard unit for the sons of the wealthy & privileged who did not want to fight in the Vietnam War. That is not service. Service would have been going to fight.

George W. Bush DESERTED his unit rather than take a drug test. What a Hero! How Manly and decisive! No wonder he has become such a Great Leader In This Time Of War. :eyes: :puke:

[reprobate]

59. let me add to your indictment of Captain Codpiece

He got his commission by having his daddy pull strings with the commander of the TANG. He was specifically put in a unit that flew F102s, an aircraft that was obsolete and no longer used in the active air force. This was intentional, with the purpose of keeping him out of viet nam, since the only aircraft he was rated in was no longer combat rated.

When you come right down to it, there is a question that many ask: how did such a ne'er do well, a failure in everything he ever tried, become the master of the world? Doesn't say much for our country, does it?

[kaitykaity]

11. I hope the General is asked what he would do

if one of his men had acted the way that
Bush had acted.

Clark can address this, bring it front and
center.

:bounce:

[0007]

20. I was thinking the same thing - Let someone else bring it up

and then do a lecture of why young men can't ......go AWOL

[kodi]

13. clark was slick..."he might be a criminal, but he was never charged"

can anyone say "unindicted co-conspirator"

[TacticalPeek]

21. Swift, smooth and deadly.

"People admire what Shrub represents, a man who's overcome his cowardice and desertion, and his drug addiction and alcoholism, and pulled his marriage back together and moved forward."

:evilgrin:

[gate of the sun]

15. a hint isin't enough

blast the sucker!

[imhotep]

17. what has happened to the Democratic party?

Vietnam is now a good war?

[RaRa]

18. Oh Come on!

It just points to the repuke hypocracy. Bush acts like this pro-military shit and in reality he's just pro-military business and a total coward - getting a cozy place in the reserves and then going awol. There's a group of veterans that have raised thousands of dollars for anyone who can prove that the shrub did NOT go awol. No one's claimed the money yet. Read Al Franken's book - he does a lovely verse on how this admin's "leaders" all got out of service in Vietnam through less than honorable means.

This isn't about the right or wrong of Vietnam; it's about the cowardice of the pro-war repukes.

[Guaranteed]

27. Dude- it's worse than that.

Bush didn't "get a cozy place in the reserves."

Bush's daddy got him placed into the reserves so he wouldn't have to go to Nam....AND THEN HE NEVER SHOWED UP TO TRAINING.

Not once. There is no record of him ever showing up for duty.

[TacticalPeek]

32. Au contraire ... he did some time, missed some and dodged drug tests.

Links to some of his records here.

http://awolbush.com

:evilgrin:

[TacticalPeek]

19. Its over. That is good.

[Ksec]

22. the best defense is a good offense

Keep em rocking back on their heels, never let up, keep swingin.

[robbedvoter]

60. Right. W was a giid guy for deserting. he didn'ty want to hurt people.

hail the leader! Thanks for showing me the light.

[colorado_ufo]

23. An excellent response!

It plants the seed of doubt while delaying the attack until a more effective time. With an issue like this, you don't want to "go after" it too soon, because then you give the opposition time to plan their counterattack. What a shocker to throw into a presidential debate - without warning!

We must keep our focus, remain on target: the objective is the office of president, the prize is winning back our country for all of us who truly love freedom, our traditions, and our American way of life.

We must select the candidate who has the strengths to stand up not only to the attacks from the incumbent party, but also from the media. Clark has the personal presentation, the looks, the credentials, the smarts and the guts to carry the day. At this point, policy ranks second to victory. This presidential race will be a battle like no other, and if there was ever a time we needed a general, this is it!

There is only one mantra, overriding all others, that every person in the Democratic Party, every other party, and every independent should have as their focus:

We must win!
We must win!
We must win!

All of us need to unite behind the candidate who has the best chance of winning against the incumbent, with not a vote wasted:

We must win!

Many men and women have shed their blood and made untold sacrifices for the sake of the United States of America, for the principles and values we hold dear. We cannot allow them to have suffered and died in vain by allowing our country to be sacrificed at the altar of greed and lust for power:

We must win!

We must remember that we CAN do this - and -

We must win!

[NNN0LHI]

25. This is the kind of dout we need put into the voters mind about Chimpy

Really glad to see this coming out. It just ruins Roves plans to show the Crackhead in Chief as some kind of super duper hero fighter pilot during the GE. I wish all the candidates would address this issue.

Don

[Zhade]

28. Um...Clark...the documents are ONLINE.

He cannot be so stupid as to not know this, if he's bringing it up.

Clark? Try www.awolbush.com. It's real simple.

My personal feeling, off-topic, is that Moore is insane for endorsing Clark. But that's just me.

[NNN0LHI]

29. As far as I know Clark is the only candidate to discuss this subject

Do some of the other candidates not want to talk about this subject for some reason? Wonder why that would be?

Don

[Zhade]

31. Well, that's like proving a negative.

Who's to say why they haven't, if they haven't?

Not you or I, that's for sure. We're not them. We should try asking them. :)

[0rganism]

33. Clark is VERY smart not to do the attacking at this point

Moore is outspoken, a willing lightning rod, and plenty capable of saying what needs to be said in this respect. Clark is wise to keep this matter on hold for later, during the general election campaign perhaps. This is NOT a charge one makes lightly, and if W has some trumped-up documentation of his service in the Alabama NG, the accuser could be made to look like quite a chump. $300 million buys a lot of paperwork.

Should ex-General Clark be the person to make this attack on W's service record, I would expect him to build an airtight case -- including complete statements from the people who would have certified W's attendance or lack thereof. The existence of any ambiguous counterclaims (e.g. the now-deceased superior officers who thought W served his year in Alabama) could spell real trouble for anyone making careless allegations. The story itself is confusing enough that it would require more than a 30-second newsblurb to tell, and that makes it dangerous.

Assuming Gen. Turnipseed is still alive, a typical media whore question might go a bit like this: "You say you don't recall Lt. Bush reporting for duty; do you recall every lieutenant who did report to you during that time?" And the old guy would have to weigh his answer against threats on the lives of his grandkids, of that I have little doubt. So Clark is playing it safe, for now, and I can't say I blame him.

[kentuck]

30. delete..

wrong thread,,,:)

[IndianaGreen]

34. Clark: Bush Guard Duty Not an Issue

I think our General is going soft on Bush all of a sudden. I don't know how else to explain this Broder piece in Sunday's Washington Post.

Clark: Bush Guard Duty Not an Issue
By David S. Broder
The Washington Post
Sunday, January 18, 2004; Page A05

PEMBROKE, N.H., Jan. 17 -- Retired Army Gen. Wesley K. Clark said Saturday he "has heard" charges that President Bush was a "deserter" from his duties in the Vietnam War-era Air National Guard but said, "I am not going to go into the issues of what George W. Bush did or didn't do in the past."

The term "deserter" was used by documentary filmmaker Michael Moore in introducing Clark to an enthusiastic rally of more than 1,000 people in this Concord suburb Saturday afternoon.

<snip>

In a news conference after the event, Clark was asked if he had heard those words and if he agreed. "Well," he said. "I've heard those charges. I don't know if they are true or not. He was never prosecuted for it."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26184-2004Jan17.html

[0rganism]

35. I think he's wisely letting others go out on that limb

Clark is using the high road to his advantage: not only would he rather campaign on issues of bush's presidential competence, he appears not to have any need to bring up bush's possible dereliction of duty 30 years back. Yet.

The trick is to use it without appearing petty or vengeful.

[kaitykaity]

36. Just more proof that Broder has turned into a

conservative media whore.

[gulliver]

37. I think Clark did the right thing.

Clark said, "I've heard those charges. I don't know if they are true or not. He was never prosecuted for it."

The AWOL issue rests on putting the burden of proof back on Bush. Journalists need to take this on. Clark leaves the issue open. And if Clark is the nominee, AWOL becomes a big issue against Bush. Clark himself, without saying a word, makes the AWOL issue fatal against Bush.

A Clark candidacy makes it worthwhile for journalists to dig into AWOL. Additional proof that Bush skipped out on his duty would hit hard if Bush is up against someone who served as honorably as Clark did. Clark doesn't have to raise the question. With Clark as the Dem candidate, the question of Bush's AWOL status raises itself.

[Flubadubya]

39. "Journalists need to take this on."

And just which one of the rank and file Media Whores do you suggest might do this? I don't mean to scoff harshly at your suggestion, but I can't think of a single reporter who would dare confront the almighty Bush. The negative consequences would be great, and I think they are all just as big a bunch of COWARDS as George W. himself.

Palast and a few other REAL investigative journalists have actually "taken this on", but you won't ever see it in mainstream press.

Julianne Malveaux dared broach the subject on a Wolf Blitzer Sunday show and was immediately shouted down by the Mucho Media Whore, Wolfie... see for yourself: http://www.americanpolitics.com/20021118punditpap.html

The part of the transcript labeled (CROSSTALK) was not at all inaudible. It was actually Blitzer nearly shouting to the top of his lungs, saying "NO, NO, NO, we aren't going to go there!" I watched it and will never forget what the bastard said.

Yep, just find some journalist in the mainstream media who will ask the Chimp outright (at one of his "frequent" press conferences?) and I'll show you a dead man/woman.

[gulliver]

45. Clark makes it more possible.

Without a Clark raising the question of AWOL, you are right. Journalists are not just going to bring it up out of the blue. That would be called unfair (in our current world of journalism not being allowed to report on the truth unless they get a fax). We need a Clark or a Kerry on our ticket so that the issue comes up "naturally."

[bobthedrummer]

41. Now there's a thankless task for Clark

something he can do for the Democratic Party too.
Attack Bush everywhere.
I don't trust the General at all, I think he brings moles with him, but this type of attack campaigning is ok in general.

[dennis4868]

42. we all know....

that if Clinton had been a dessrter the repubs would demand a special prosecutor and impeachment hearing would soon be under way....

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

48. Hinting

I think this "hinting" is no good. I LIKED Clark commenting about GWB "prancing in a flight suit". That was good, that is what is required. This is a fight.

Regarding AWOL Bush--the campaigns need to very dispassionately go over what evidence is there (and definitely try to dig up more if possible). Decide if there is enough to attack on this charge. If there is, go there boldly. If not, leave it alone. We don't have the liberal rumor to Druge to Rush to Fox echo chamber and really shouldn't use those kind of tactics.

To paraphrase an old saw. Tell them you're going to attack them. Attack them. Tell them they've just been attacked.

BTW a good example of this is Ted Kennedy. He is floating various versions of his excellent speech in different outlets, the latest as a Washington Post editorial. This is smart. DO NOT LET THE MESSAGE DIE. It's way too important.

[leftchick]

47. The story is up on Yahoo now. please rate it!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/clark

my Favorite part:

<Retired Gen. William Turnipseed, a commander at the Alabama base, said during the 2000 presidential campaign that he never saw Bush appear for duty for that unit's drills. Bush maintains he was there, but records have never been produced to document that Bush was there.>

[Catshrink]

49. Done. Currently at 3.88 with 355 votes.

Glad this is coming out....hope it doesn't die in the hoopla over Iowa and the SOTU.

[robbedvoter]

52. They switched stories! The McGovern endorsement at this link

I don't see the W record :-(

[leftchick]

53. holy smokes you are right....

It seems to be totaly scrubbed from Yahoo now. Phone call from Karl perhaps? :(

[leftchick]

54. Here it is at SFGate.com

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/01/17/politics1939EST0605.DTL


It is the original AP article and the only place I found it doing a google search.

[T Bone]

51. and what about Cheney's 4 Student deferments, but no college degree ?

Cheney =4 Student deferments during the Vietnam era.
NO college degree.

A dumb draft evader, but he had other priorities like taking over the world.

There has got to be a way to bring these questions up in a public forum where they can be batted around for the maximum effect.

[NNN0LHI]

55. Cheney got 3 DUI arrests though. Credit where credit is due n/t

[tableturner]

56. New Yahoo News link right here.....go vote!!

This is the new link at Yahoo News for the story about Clark and Bush's National Guard service:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040118/ap_on_el_pr/clark_21

[leftchick]

57. Vote on this folks....

thanks and welcome to DU tableturner! :toast: