Kucinich Asks for New Hampshire Recount in the Interest of Election Integrity

[Ichingcarpenter]

Source: Business Wire

-Democratic Presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich, the most outspoken advocate in the Presidential field and in Congress for election integrity, paper-ballot elections, and campaign finance reform, has sent a letter to the New Hampshire Secretary of State asking for a recount of Tuesday’s election because of “unexplained disparities between hand-counted ballots and machine-counted ballots.”

“I am not making this request in the expectation that a recount will significantly affect the number of votes that were cast on my behalf,” Kucinich stressed in a letter to Secretary of State William M. Gardner. But, “Serious and credible reports, allegations, and rumors have surfaced in the past few days…It is imperative that these questions be addressed in the interest of public confidence in the integrity of the election process and the election machinery – not just in New Hampshire, but in every other state that conducts a primary election.”

He added, “Ever since the 2000 election – and even before – the American people have been losing faith in the belief that their votes were actually counted. This recount isn’t about who won 39% of 36% or even 1%. It’s about establishing whether 100% of the voters had 100% of their votes counted exactly the way they cast them.”

Read more: http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20080110006236&newsLang=en

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Thank you Dennis!

You know, he is the ideal person to do this, because no one can accuse him of "sour grapes" about losing the primary. Dennis is out to make sure that EVERY election in EVERY state is honest and valid. Kudos!

[The Doctor.]

76. And yet here they are with the accusations. Honestly... I really wouldn'a thunk'it.

Dennis has pretty much cashed in his Presidential run on this... unless...

-The 'press' takes him seriously enough to;
a)Spend time on it.

-AND-

b)Spend time on him.


That's a very long shot to throw away any '08 Presidential hopes on. I would say he damn well knows that he's been barred by the media, realizes that he beats them at their game by getting their attention, realizes that they perhaps must pay attention due to the gravity and reprecussions of such a pursuit, or, barring that, will expose more of the truth of corruption and malfeasance in our government to so many that pay attention.

"Force them to swallow their M/O whole, expose the truth (more), or both"... all to sacrifice very little, as he was robbed from the start.

Very bright man.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

209. What the Kucinich bashers don't get is

that with Dennis, the cause is more important than personal glory.

[Mad_Dem_X]

216. Exactly

If he thinks something screwy is going on, he has a right - an obligation - to speak up and try to do something about it.

[bdamomma]

244. we do too.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

amen.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberalnurse]

2. Kucinich is the BIGGEST

Whiner ever there is in the Democratic Party. He ultimately accomplished nothing....



"Oh, Oh, Oh...over here...look at me" said Dennis!

[rjones2818]

11. Here's the problem, 'liberal'nurse....

The discrepency is there. It may or may not be a real problem. A hand recount of the optical ballots will tell us this.

Why is this important?

If there is a reason for the discrepency, even if it's say 250 ballots, then the system isn't a good one. Take those 250 ballots per capita and run them at any of the other states using such ballots and see how many ballots may be affected. Then think about the general election, which is bound to be closer than what it may look like right now. Could such a 'small' number of ballots change the race?

Do you want to take that chance?

I say good for Dennis!

Go Dennis! :woohoo:
http://dennis4president.com
Vote your conscience, choose peace!

[liberalnurse]

14. For Chrissake.............He is only showboating.

He never fought to resolve the Ohio Voter Fraud in his own state! The 04 Presidential Election. Everyone else here did! Dennis was nowhere to be found.....not a leader, just an attention seeking whiner!

Yea, I'm disappointed in Dennis.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Laurab]

21. Showboating? As if this will help him?

It won't, and I'm sure he's aware of it. There seemed to be something VERY wrong with the primary in NH - so wrong that all of the pundits are still asking what could have happened to make it come out so wrong. Obviously, your candidate won - that's fine, but went against everything that had been predicted. Edwards and Richardson stayed at 17% and 5% the ENTIRE night. There were major differences in the areas that used ballots, and the ones that used Optical Scan Devices - unexplainable differences.

If we don't want another repuke president in '08, the best thing we can do is what Dennis is doing. I care more about whether the election was fair than whether my candidate wins - everyone should.

[liberalnurse]

33. My frustration comes from the fact he does nothing

for his own state. We needed leadership and help....he was absent...a No-Show. So, I don't like it when he goes for the main stream media and won't even work with his own constituents.

That's how I feel......honestly. We here in Ohio have worked hard to change the Blackwell/*bush/Rove crimes............Dennis Kucinich was not in the loop by his own choice.

[Zorra]

65. Anyone remember this? Dennis vs. Diebold, 2003:

December 9, 2003
Madison Capital Times (Wisconsin)
Go-Along Media Ignoring Kucinich
by John Nichols
snip---
Typically, Kucinich was ahead of the curve on an important issue. In November,
he seized on concerns about the reliability of electronic voting machines
produced by Diebold Inc., one of the nation's largest voting equipment
manufacturers. Those concerns were stirred by the revelation that Diebold
employees had expressed concerns in e-mails about the security of machines
produced by the company.
Diebold sought to shut down any debate about its machines by threatening legal
actions against operators of Web sites that were publishing or linking to
corporate documents that detailed flaws in Diebold equipment and
irregularities in the certifying of the company's systems for elections.
When he learned of the legal threats, Kucinich took on the politically potent
corporation. The Ohio congressman asked House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jim
Sensenbrenner, R-Menomonee Falls, and the ranking Democrat on that committee,
Rep. John Conyers of Michigan, to investigate whether the company's actions
were potential abuses of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. He also posted
the controversial documents on his congressional Web site.
Diebold quickly backed down. And Kucinich used the development to declare, "In
a democracy where half the people don't vote and where the last presidential
election was decided by the Supreme Court, we cannot tolerate flawed voting
equipment or intimidation of those who point out the flaws. Diebold backing
down from its intimidation campaign is a positive step. An open and honest
examination of the flaws in electronic voting will lead us to only one
possible conclusion: electronic voting machines are dangerous to democracy
because there is no way of ensuring their accuracy. We have to have a
voter-verified paper trail for every election so that any errors and
irregularities caused by the voting machines can be recovered."
All in all, this makes for a meaty story. A presidential candidate takes on a
major corporation and wins in a fight over an issue that is fundamental to the
functioning of our democracy.
So were there headlines about Kucinich's fight with Diebold? No. Television
news reports? No. Lengthy discussions on public radio or commercial talk
radio? No.

http://www.oilempire.us/kucinich.html

Dennis rocks! He is so ignored by the MSM that even his constituents don't know what he is doing for them.

[skyounkin]

86. And what has happened

since then? We are still voting on the machines, states that have decided that the machines are faulty have changed them on their own accord- not because of what Dennis has done. It's 5 years later...what has happened since then?

Nothing......

[defendandprotect]

95. Right . . . unresolved Ohio is all Dennis' fault -- !!!

[EFerrari]

217. A lot has happened since then. If you're interested

there is a daily news thread in the Election Reform forum.

Just in Ohio, a lot has happened. There is a new Secretary of State who is shaking the whole place up. She's terrific.

[slipslidingaway]

122. THANKS. Dennis is proactive, he could use other voices to

help fight for issues that concern all of us.

[mirrera]

150. Thank you...n/t

[FREEWILL56]

191. Dennis was in the loop, but liberalnurse didn't seem to hear much

about it. Is this a case of the MSM doing it's number on him back then or a case of selected memory on liberalnurse or both? Why do hillary supporters whine in the ability to confirm hillary's win? Maybe they suspect it was foul play?

[kenfrequed]

308. feh

Don't hold your breath waiting for liberalnurse to reply...

You would think that Hillary supporters would want to welcome a recount if only to show us how democracy is supposed to work (and as a warning shot to the re-pukes in the generals). Hell I would have thought ANY real Democrat would have been happy to have a proper recount.

Or is the phoney "Comeback" story more important than out process for selecting a candidate.

Kucinich isn't likely to win, but I am damned proud that he is brining this problem up BEFORE it becomes a problem, and I think the media outlets are showing their terrible bias in not reporting stories regarding election fraud.

[Andromeda]

339. It's not Hillary 's supporters...

that are whining. I'm quite happy that she won N.H. What bothers me is the fact that if Obama had won there would be no talk of a recount. It's a fact that Dennis knew his campaign wasn't going anywhere so he turned his support to Obama. Obama didn't win so Dennis and his supporters are all pissed off. It's pure sour grapes.

I expected this.

If a recount is necessary it will be done but first it has to be determined if there are any obvious discrepancies. It's expensive and time consuming and there are many more states coming up to worry about.

[FREEWILL56]

341. I guess you foresaw the discrepancies in the vote too.

Don't you want to let it be determined once and for all if it was legit or do you wish to whine some more just to hear yourself whine?
edit to add:
If it were Obama who had won and you saw the same discrepancy you'd be for verifying it so stuff it whiner.

[maxanne]

132. yep

so better he do nothing now!

waaaa

[orleans]

170. then you ought to be fucking thrilled he's doing this--not just for

ohio or himself but for the whole country.

RIGHT?
RIGHT?

[NorthCarolina]

287. I Suppose It Couldn't Be

that as a Hillary supporter your simply grousing about a challenge to her supposed "win" in NH.

[northzax]

273. no, there didn't seem to be something majorly wrong

the only reason people are still talking about it is that the media didn't get the result they were looking for, so they keep whinging about it.

And yes, there is a problem with all this, we are still talking about NEw Hampshire, the recount will take days, and we will still be talking about New Hampshire, not South Carolina, Florida or the Super Tuesday battlegrounds. The republicans are talking about other states, we are stuck on New Hampshire. so let's spend the next two weeks scrutinizing the vote in NEw Hampshire, instead of talking about how we are going to win the rest of the country. that's my problem. If Kucinich's poll workers (he did have poll workers, right?) saw a problem, why did it take four days to ask for a recount? and why didn't Hillary or Obama's workers spot problems as well?

[kenfrequed]

309. Uhm

So isn't accuracy important in a democracy? Isn't stopping fraud importnat?

Is Chris Matthews "talking about S. Caroline" somehow going to help anyone in New Hampshire settle the vote talley?

Is Wolf Blitzer talking about one of the Democrat campaigns there going to somehow magically make s.caraolina a blue state?

Is this going to hurt the Hillary momentum sooo much that we have to ignore it for the sake of her campaign?

When is it going to be time to talk about these defective machines? Is it EVER going to be time?

[rAVES]

23. You're going on Ignore for being.. not worth it

[still_one]

30. what a showboat is right. Same thing for trying to impeach the VP. How dare he do his job

I am getting a little tired of Dennis trying to impeach people who started an illegal war, outed a CIA agent, did illegal wire-tapping without going through a FISA court, etc. etc.

How dare that bastard act like a real patriot, instead of following our Congressional leadership

[Lerkfish]

243. bravo!

well put!

[kenfrequed]

310. Well said!

I agree totally.

[sellitman]

34. Kucinich is a winner not a whiner.

You on the other hand cannot see the forest through the trees. This is bigger than our candidates and if you can't see that then you are blinded by your own candidate.

[AikidoSoul]

56. I wish Dennis was my representative

Too bad you can't see his good qualities and appreciate him.

Several DUers were PRAYING that he would request a recount. It will be a great service to
this country to see whether the DIEBOLD optical scan counting software is accurate, or is
a scam as many of us suspect.

The man is a credit to this country and has the biggest balls of anyone in Congress.

[madrchsod]

66. so do i--------hastert was mine!

[mopinko]

70. thank you for remembering

i thought i was the only one.

[maxanne]

131. so in that case

he shouldn't take any action at all.

That makes perfect sense.

[Lerkfish]

241. disappointment would have required previous respect

:shrug:

I've seen nothing to indicate you previously respected Kucinich.

[Algorem]

29. he's a Democrat in name and action

[helderheid]

253. If there is a problem, exposing it now could save us the election!

[harmonicon]

19. yeah, I can't stand the way he's constantly whining

about things like "upholding the constitution", being a country governed by "laws", the need for a working "democracy". God, why doesn't he just get over it and enjoy living in the corporate controlled police state where elections are just for show like everyone else? What a whiny little bitch.

[orleans]

171. lol n/t

[sss1977]

192. Lol, awesome

You deserve a beer or a shot of your choice for that one. Cheers!

[harun]

231. Best post of the lot (n/t)

[mirrera]

246. Ha! n/t

[helderheid]

254. !

:yourock:

[ima_sinnic]

27. UNBELIEVABLE. sheesh. oh, let me guess: you're a Hillary supporter.

ANYBODY else would be applauding this. Only HRC stands to lose if it turns out the votes were not counted fairly. Therefore, DK is a "showboating whiner" who only wants attention for himself.

People like you, who disparage the efforts of one of the very very few who would make the effort on the voters' behalf, who would risk the ridicule of brain-dead dumbasses, frankly, make me sick.

[rockybelt]

44. I started a thread that

maybe some rightwing nut jobs are infiltrating Du to drive wedges. Could this thing here prove my point?

[Diane R]

69. I thought the same thing tonight. And, the constant bashing of Obama is very suspect.

[ClintonTyree]

202. Get a life....

LiberalNurse has been around DU for ages. I'm SURE she's just been biding her time here, waiting for the chance to reveal her TRUE identity as a Republican operative! :sarcasm: Please! :silly:

And as for the alleged "bashing of Obama"..... Obama supporters have been doing MORE then their share of "bashing". Pot, kettle, black and all that.

BTW, the "Clinton" in my screen name has absolutely nothing to do with THE Clintons, lest you accuse me of being a Clinton supporter (and thereby a savage and brutal turncoat). The name is a character from Carl Hiaasen's books and has nothing to do with the horrible and traitorous :sarcasm: Clintons from Arkansas. OK?

The influx of relative newbies at DU accusing longtime members of being "freepers" and such is appallingly loathsome. DU has gone to hell of late, a sad caricature of it's former importance as one of the best Progressive sites on the internet. It gets this way every election cycle, but the level of vitriol, the number of conspiracy nuts and general mean-spiritedness has reached a new low. I barely recognize this place anymore. It's no wonder many long time DUers are packing this place in.

[kenfrequed]

313. Skip the Obama bashing comment then

I think that is a red herring anyhow.

The real question is how can anyone be against a proper recount. Despite being optical scanners, these are still Diebold machins and they still have too many ways to mess with the results (as well as having excessive code according to blackbox voting that makes no sense).

This is not Hillary v. Obama, this is Democracy v. Diebold.

[kerstin]

93. I've been thinking that for some time now.

As Gore would put it, the "strangeness" of the discourse around here is becoming impossible to ignore.:wtf:

[defendandprotect]

96. And, how would that be?

[rockybelt]

118. It just seems

that when a legitimate comment is posted a very negative and divisive comment is posted. Maybe its just the emotion involved. This is my first primary on Du but I read that others have been the same. Just observing.

[Individualist]

307. Right wing nut jobs

and DLCers are identical.

[Blue State Bandit]

152. Hillary could gain, even if it was a fix

If she stands up and says that a recount would not be a bad idea.

She may lose the state, but she would gain cred.

[demo dutch]

46. Yep!

[Diane R]

62. Why is this so threatening to Hillary supporters? Don't you want to know if she really won?

[zenabraham]

163. Because in the Hand Data, they lost and know it

Hi...

See my video for evidence ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbhiBhgm-dA

[orleans]

172. i'm watching now--i'm so fucking happy about this recount

(i've been freaking over these machines for years)

anyway--i posted your video in the video forum!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x83038

WELCOME TO DU!

[orleans]

178. (hey--you're on DUs front page!...if that's you...)n/t

[timtom]

184. I like your style, kid.

n/t

[Robeson]

259. Nice video...

...:thumbsup:

And welcome to the DU!

[creeksneakers2]

240. Because she will be accused of fixing the election no

matter what happens after that. She also has some bounce from New Hampshire and once the doubt starts the New Hampshire results will be reported as "the disputed New Hampshire results." The earned bump will be eliminated.

Election integrity is at the core of our democracy. If I had a reasonable suspicion that an election was hacked I'd want a recount, even if that meant giving the election to a Republican. I don't see any credible evidence of hacking. There are dozens of other potential explanations for why the final results didn't match pre-election polls. We can weigh those to see if a simpler explanation exists.

[kenfrequed]

314. But don't you see

Any temporal bounce in the polls in New Hampsire will be meaningless if we are dealing with machines that will deliver the election to the republicans. If she stands up beside Kucinich on this she will look like a statesman. If she hides behind her operatives while her supporters snipe and bitch about it, she will look like a hack and an opportunist.

[NoodleyAppendage]

68. Enjoy shilling for your corporate DINO candidate.

Oh, by the way, why are you comfortable aligning yourself with a Dem candidate who:

1.) voted for the IWR, yet will not apologize for that mistake.

2.) has taken more money from corporate special interests than any other Dem or Repuke candidate.

3.) voted with the neocons to declare the Iranian Guard as a terrorist organization, thereby providing Bush legal cover for an invasion.

...shall I continue with the litany of ills and wrongs your "girl" has committed and make your support of her a questionable match for your DU name.

J

[skyounkin]

82. I have to agree

Love the message, but the messenger is an whiney asshole. "Oh no one was anti-war before I was anti-war!! Dean stole that idea from me!!" blah blah blah........ What? Did you invent the birthday song to?

Now it just seems like sour grapes....he didn't win therefore he has to monkey wrench everything.

I think this is stupid personally. If the recount shows no error happened then that's huge waste of money and if there is a HUGE discrepancy later on- like say during the general election- the rethugs can point to the smoke and no fire that Dennis produces in NH from his recount and say "look, look it's just the boy crying wolf again".

Stupid stupid stupid.

But YMMV.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Binka]

158. Damn Straight They Are Traveling In Packs

It is the way all Nazis and bullies operate. They are fucking cowards.

[ClintonTyree]

204. Please, Binka.....

that was completely uncalled for. "Nazis", "bullies", "fucking cowards"?

Many people at DU have been extremely supportive of you and your family, lest you forget. Stooping to such vitriolic childishness is beneath you. Or should be.

[NavyDavy]

219. see its people like you who attack other DUers for not agreeing

100% of the time with you or your candidate whomever they might be,:eyes: that is making DU into a hate fest, like i have never seen it, even during the 2004 primaries. so if you don't want to become a headline on a RW site proving Dems will not be able to come together to win the presidency in 2008....stop attacking others...i mean everyone stop....end of rant!

[ima_sinnic]

226. oh please, like I could care whether someone "agrees with me 100%

of the time."

I'm talking about people who disparage the effort of ANYONE willing to stick his neck out to get a recount in an election where suspect opti-scan and/or e-vote machines were used. WHAT IS SO FRIKKIN "WHINEY" ABOUT THAT?

Think for only about 1/2 second: WHO possibly would be threatened by that? EH? could it be that the "winner" is not really so sure of her "win"? If the process is so great, why doesn't she say, as a truly gracious, magnanimous, UNCORRUPT person would say, PLEASE do a recount because I would accept my win ONLY if I knew it truly reflected the will of The People? She could even offer to pay for it! As someone says somewhere in this thread, the PR alone would pay off in votes. But I suspect that's a bit too "evolved" or "progressive" for the DLC DINOs.

NO, Dems will not be able to "come together to win the presidency" as long as DLC SCUMBALL FILTH are infiltrating everywhere with their disinformation, ulterior motives, ridiculing of people unlike themselves who don't take bribes, and propaganda BULLSHIT.

[disndat]

281. Luv this.

Thanks for expressing everything I am thinking. The HRC handlers are proven thugs, probably reflecting the real HRC As someone famous once said, "It's not the count, but who does the counting." I guess that the Obama people aren't angels either. The stakes are so high and they both have the power and the money. Maybe when the dust settles, these frontrunners will cancel each other out. Then, maybe Gore/Edwards will somehow emerge. If I am going to dream I may as well dream BIG. With Dennis Kucinich as the rainmaker anything could happen.

[frog92969]

125. And money well spent!

Since elections are the core of a democracy, I'd say no price is too high to make sure their not owned.

Is it Dennis you despise or democracy it's self?

[maxanne]

133. the real whiners

are the Paullowers. They've been pissing and moaning and gnashing their teeth for days, making accusations of voter fraud in NH.

Ron Paul was content to be a victim, while his Paulogists sniveled.

Dennis Kucinich is actually taking action - action that Ron Paul could certainly more easily afford.

stupid stupid stupid is right.

[defendandprotect]

92. We could use a boatload of Democratic "whiners" like Kucinich --- !!!

and throw the DLC'ers overboard ---PLEASE!

[djp2]

116. Afraid of the outcome?

Sounds like it to me...

[OKthatsIT]

136. Excuse me...he's the only one to trust to do what's right.

He's a Democrat's Dem!!! But some people don't remember what that means.

[Catsbrains]

179. Some of the comments on this thread make me sick. I commend Dennis Kucinich

for asking them to do a recount. Those Diebold machines cannot be trusted. He obviously is not doing this because he thinks he has a chance. He is just leading by example; as Americans we should be able to ask for a recount.

[boricua79]

206. that's so dishonorable of you

Here's a man who clearly writes that he is asking for a recount for the benefit of voters, and knowing it won't make a difference to his campaign, and you shit all over his attempt to use his status and position to request a recount.

What have YOU done for our democracy lately?

[Orsino]

227. Yes, Citizen.

The Machine is your friend. Trust the Machine.

[Peggy Day]

232. are you mad because it might mean Hillary didn't win-is Princeton's

study not good enough for you?

http://existentialistcowboy.blogspot.com/2008/01/princeton-university-reveals-how-gop.html

Why can't we see if the counts were accurate? This is the time to do it. We have machine and we have the paper ballots-it would be easy.

For me, if they were the same, I would shut my mouth about it.

[creeksneakers2]

261. I have lots of questions about the study

But one thing that jumps out is that the hacking would require insider access. There are hundreds of voting machines and they are stored in different municipalities. It wouldn't be possible to hack all of them or even a significant portion of them.

Where would someone get a card with the entire program on it to tamper with? The experiment shows how the new card can be installed in one minute but it doesn't explain how one could obtain a card.

The possibility of pre-election tampering with all of the memory cards while they are together at the contractors initial programming seems more likely. I don't know what would be involved in doing this.

Even if the election could have been stolen that doesn't mean it was. The preliminary exit polls gave a projection that was very much in line with the final result.

I'm wouldn't be mad if it turned out Hillary didn't win. I'd be happy that the truth came out. But the mere implication that fraud occurred will harm Hillary. If there was credible evidence that hacking occurred I'd be in favor of the audit but I don't see enough evidence to warrant it.

[Peace Patriot]

280. Creeksneakers2, the exit polls are "adjusted" to match Diebold's result.

The exit polls as designed by Edison-Mitofsky, for a consortium of the corporate media, are useless as a verification tool, as we learned in 2004.

In 2004, alert bloggers and statistics experts took screen shots of the UNADJUSTED exit polls, which all day long were saying Kerry won. As the polls closed, E/M began "adjusting" the exit polls to FORCE them to FIT the results coming in from Diebold/ES&S's 'TRADE SECRET,'PROPRIETARY vote tabulation software. Then the ADJUSTED exit polls matched the Diebold/ES&S outcome--that Bush won.

The election integrity movement raised such a stink about this discrepancy between the REAL exit polls (Kerry won) and the Diebold/ES&S (and "adjusted" E/M) result (Bush won), that E/M promised never to let the public see its real exit poll totals again.

E/M did the exit polls in New Hampshire. Diebold--a corporation like ES&S with very close ties to the Bush Junta and to rightwing causes--counted most of the votes in NH using 'TRADE SECRET' code.

Do you get what I'm saying? The NH vote was conducted mostly on Diebold optiscans using their 'TRADE SECRET' vote counting code, and has not been verified. And the exit polls are NOT a verification tool. Unlike almost every other country in the world, which use exit polls AGAINST the official total, as a check on election fraud, here in the U.S. exit polls are used to CONFIRM the official result, not to verify it.

In NH, the handcount in the rural areas went for Obama. The urban areas, which used Diebold machines, it went for Clinton--despite all pre-election polls (including Clinton's own internal polls) that said Obama was going to win. So we have TWO indicators of a wrong out come: the discrepancy between the handcount and the machines; and all pre-election polls. The exit polls are useless--they have been "adjusted." And they, too, like the Diebold machines, represent a SECRET corporate process.

Re E/M, this is highly unprofessional and dishonest, because they know damn well that most people don't know what they're doing, and believe that the exit polls are some kind of check on fraud. Most people are like you--they don't know.

Re Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia--the three main election theft corporations (all with close ties to the Republican Party)--it is a matter of FRAUD, false advertising, lying, bilking the public of billions of dollars for these expensive, crapass, highly insecure and insider riggable vote counting systems, lavish lobbying, and buying or intimidating lawmakers and election officials. They should all be in jail, as far as I'm concerned.

Re our Democratic Party leadership, the top leadership betrayed us--the grass roots--and the American people. They supported this. They said nothing. They issued no warning. The $3.9 billion and more of taxpayer dollars for these machines was filtered through their fingers. The few elected Democrats and other Dem leaders who may have objected to what was going on apparently succumbed to fear, or blackmail. In CA, they were given an example of what happens to anyone who challenges Diebold, when our good Sec of State Kevin Shelley was driven from office on entirely corruption charges, after he tried to sue Diebold and get hold of their source code prior to the 2004 election. If you challenge Diebold, the Dark Lords will get you.

The Republicans mounted a fascist coup, with the Bushite-controlled voting machines. The Democrats went along because they were for the war, or were afraid. The war profiteering corporate news monopolies never question anything anyway, and are controlled by five far rightwing billionaire CEOs. (Read Dan Rather's lawsuit filings against CBS, where the CBS execs say they will not help Rather on the Bush AWOL in the Texas National Guard story because it was "in their interest for Bush to win the election." Also see Rather's documentary "The Trouble With Touchscreens," www.HD.net--an expose of these e-voting corporations.)

Kudos to Dennis Kucinich for challenging these S.O.B.'s and their "trade secret" coded elections! That takes real courage.

[creeksneakers2]

283. I know the exit polls are adjusted throughout the evening

The results I'm citing come from BEFORE any significant adjusting could have occurred.

They start the exit poll by taking random samples from precincts chosen to mirror the statewide election. This data is incomplete until the polls close, so no valid inferences can be drawn from it before then. At the point when the polls close, a projection is issued. The number I'm citing is from exactly when most of the polls closed.

Data from totals from the actual election comes in after the polls closed and results are reported. At that time the exit poll projections are updated with the new data. The figures I'm citing were from before any significant results were reported. THEY ARE NOT SIGNIFICANTLY ADJUSTED FIGURES. They are from 8PM, when the reported results were so small that if would be difficult to draw inferences.

I don't see what this has to do with Ohio. The people who distrust Ohio insist that initial exit poll projections were accurate. I'm saying original exit poll projections are accurate in New Hampshire. If comparing the results of Ohio and New Hampshire prove anything, its that the people who yell fraud do it no matter which way the exit polls come out.

[Peggy Day]

295. If there was fraud, I wouldn't blame Hillary-who knows what evil

lurks in the minds of the evildoers. Maybe they think Hillary would be easier to beat.

[Lerkfish]

238. why do you oppose a recount?

election transparency and integrity is worthwhile goal, is it not?

what rational argument do you have against making sure elections are conducted fairly in a democracy?

[jabeguy]

291. And therefore liberalnurse, you just demonstrated exactly that...nothing.

There is tons of voter fraud evidence, my friend. Assuming makes an ass out of you and ming.

Look up this stuff, or do you REALLY care about this stuff? I kinda wonder, with people saying short phrases like that to get some "point" across. Do you really wanna know the truth?



Good Fox News (yes, even them!) small report on voting machines:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JESZiLpBLE

Ohio 2004 Voter Machine Fraud Court Case:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UvEuqYyDoE

Vote Fraud 3 minute video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPUzxlZ47Cs

Security Analysis of the Diebold AccuVote-TS Voting Machine
http://itpolicy.princeton.edu/voting

See below for resources if you are concerned…
==========================

Learn what your representatives stand on:
http://www.dontvote.com

Vote Smart
http://www.vote-smart.org
http://www.vote-smart.org/election_five_categories.php?dist=npat.php&state_name=Texas&state_code=TX

Vote Trust
http://www.votetrustusa.org

Black Box Voting
http://blackboxvoting.org

Voters Unite
http://www.votersunite.org

[DutchLiberal]

292. Now that's funny: a person who calls herself 'liberal' who supports Hillary.

I'm a big fan of irony. :rofl:

[Lerkfish]

322. well, clinton supporters like to say they're progressive

until they want to insult progressives, then they're centrists.

[Andromeda]

323. Yep.

:)

[Zhade]

340. Blindness like yours is why this country is doomed.

NT!

[Heywood J]

345. ... says the Hillary supporter.

[Purveyor]

3. Woohoo... This needs to be done just for the reasons Dennis lays out. K&R eom

[Dems Will Win]

4. Are there paper receipts from the Diebold machines that were used?

I heard it was a five point difference, that on the paper ballots, Obama won by a few points.

[ORDagnabbit]

6. all ballots in NH are paper ballots... but they are counted in two different ways

1. by hand

and

2. by diebold machines

[defendandprotect]

100. ...and what percentage of them were counted by Diebold?

[frog92969]

127. I read it was 81% Diebold

And my spidie senses started tingling.

[LostinVA]

213. Hi Bev!

[defendandprotect]

101. ...and what percentage of them were counted by Diebold?

[maxanne]

137. NH uses

paper ballots in all elections, it is state law.

The ballots are either hand counted, or scanned by optical scan machines. The larger towns/cities use the opti-scan machines. Eighty percent seems high to me, given how many small towns
still count by hand.

[ClintonTyree]

208. Shhhh....

don't spoil their conspiratorial blood-lust with the introduction of facts. Gather the rakes and pitchforks and meet us all in the Town Square. The monster must be destroyed. :eyes:

[Peggy Day]

235. Is Princetons'study good enough for you?

http://existentialistcowboy.blogspot.com/2008/01/princeton-university-reveals-how-gop.html

[ClintonTyree]

269. Uh....they didn't USE Diebold machines.

Apparently you didn't read the above post about New Hampshire using ALL paper ballots? :shrug: Diebold machines aren't in question here. Optical scanners, yes. You're a confirmed member of the rake and pitchfork crowd I see. The facts be damned! :eyes:

[mirrera]

282. Diebold makes Optical Scanners.

Read up on them. The memory card has an executable program on it that makes the scanner work. It can not work at all with out this little program on the card. The GEMs program on a regular PC is used to put in all the particulars that are on the ballot. Who goes in column "A" and who goes in column"B", etc. When the election official—or in some cases a person from the company that sold the scanner— is finished the scanner is plugged into the PC and that info is written to the memory card. Multiple cards can be copied, using the scanner like a "card reader". Once all the cards are written, the scanners are ready to be used to count the ballots.

If you read about the Harry Hursti hack he shows one way the election can be manipulated, but there are many ways this can be done. The election officials do not even have to be involved.

We should not have to prove it wasn't done as long as they can't prove it CAN'T be done. We would not put up with such a poor level of security at our bank —nor would the banks who have whole departments devoted to computer security while the average election official has to depend and trust Diebold and ES&S.

Diebold Accuvote Optical Scanner.

There was concern about this in NH before the primary. (Remember "live free or Diebold") Crying foul about the "sudden concern" is something we expect from the GOP. As Democrats we should be above that. Anyone who wants to count the paper ballots by hand (which is why we are so glad to have those ballots and are fighting state by state to get them) has my support. If they rig the re-count that has to be caught as well. I could care less who benefits as far as the candidates go. I believe in Democracy and the right of the people to have their votes counted as cast. The truth is the truth and no one should be afraid of it.

Accusing someone of being part of the "rake and pitchfork crowd" is really quite demeaning. There are true heroes working to save our vote and like we say about certain officials, if you can't help it is sometimes best to get out of the way.

Edited to add link to Hursti Hack video on Brad Blog (scroll down the page):
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5537

[Votergater]

296. Our HBO documentary 'Hacking Democracy' shows the Diebold system actually being hacked....

... I am one of the producer/director's of the HBO documentary "Hacking Democracy". Our expert hacker Harri Hursti discovered the unknown programme that runs inside the Diebold memory cards. He hacked the code in one memory card and rigged all the votes in a special test election we filmed in Leon County, Florida (we had legal access to that county's Diebold Optical Scan machines and Diebold tabulator).

Harri Hursti recently visited New Hampshire to advise the state election officials of how to help secure the machines from the attack he carried out in our film. Unfortunately none of the NH machines were given this extra security.

http://www.hackingdemocracy.com

[mirrera]

318. You are awesome!!! Hacking democracy was superb! I bought the DVD...

Worth having.

[Votergater]

321. Thank you for your kind support !!

I hope HBO will screen the film again this year. Interestingly the Diebold Optical Scan machines have just replaced the ES&S touchscreens in Sarasota, FL

[Peggy Day]

294. Optical scanners can be hacked too. No need to

be grumpy, I'm on your side.
If there is paper ballots, and they were read by optical scanners, this is the perfect time to check. Diebold isn't the only game in town.

[sam kane]

297. Diebold Optical scanners are Diebold machines. n/t

[maxanne]

252. well, Clinton

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'd be happy to have a recount at this point. I'd like to know that voting in my state IS safe and secure.

That said, I may interject the occasional fact. :)

[defendandprotect]

317. OK . .. what percentage were counted by optical scan machines?

They would be open to quesitoning . . .

[stillcool]

5. Only Dennis...

Thank You Dennis!!

[jasmine621]

7. Funny how people think DK is so great but won't support him really.

We always settle for what is "expedient" rather than what is in our own best interest.

[Pastiche423]

9. Not everyone settles

[FREEWILL56]

342. Could've fooled me.

[pjt7]

10. Way to go Mr.Kucinich

NH is such a tiny state & is fairly easy to double-check the system.

[Political Heretic]

73. Things are not binary. Just because I agree with Dennis on many things does not mean......

...that I feel he would be the best person to be in the role of President.

Jimmy Carter was a great man and an awful President. Or another example, my father holds all the ideas Dennis and I do too -- that doesn't mean I would vote for him to sever in the role of President of the United States, and that doesn't mean he would make a good president if elected. Instead I think that his gifts, personality and experience would serve our country best in certain other roles.

It's time that Dennis supporters start RESPECTING people who have consciously and thoughtfully supported someone else for President, and admit to the fact that not everyone who does not choose "their guy" is a hypocrite. I think Dennis has the right view points. I don't think he's the best or most qualified person to fill the role of president of the united states. I may be wrong in my opinion, and others may certainly disagree with me, but I am not stupid, uninformed, or hypocritical for my opinion and I'm most certainly entitled to it.

[frog92969]

153. I may be able to answer that...

I can only speak for myself but probably the same as most DK supporters.
I see problems with the RECORDS of the "top three" candidates that suggest they would continue working for B*$h's owners, with disastrous results. - MIC, PNAC, AIPAC...we all know the list (I hope).
I see definite indications in DK's RECORD that he would risk his own life to buck these backseat drivers and do what's best for the people.

I can't say he's perfect, but may be very close for the critical situation we're in.
I will apologies now for our at times strong arm support for DK which I've seen received as a "holier than thou" attitude.
It could be-
a) We are dumbfounded that people haven't examined the RECORDS, or have and don't see what to us seems obvious.
b) We are terrified by the thought of 4 more years like the last 7-8, which could likely push America beyond all hope.
c) We are fed up with the media/debate blackout and trying to break out and reach people.

I don't know who you support, but if you've investigated them and still agree with them then more power to you.

[meowomon]

203. I Agree

Call me old fashioned or judgemental, but there is just something unseemly to me about having a first lady with a tongue piercing. Just my opinion.

[defendandprotect]

102. I think there's been big support for Dennis at DU ---

Let's get him nominated --- I'll vote for him!!!

[TahitiNut]

114. I suspect that many who give lip service to agreeing with his positions but demean him personallly

... and refuse to support his voice ... have some deep-seated self-estemm issues themselves.


"Suspect" hell ... it seems pretty damned clear. :grr:

[FreeState]

8. I suspect a recount would show

the tally was correct within 100 votes or so.

[stillcool]

13. I suspect a recount...

would assure the accuracy of the vote. That is all that is necessary, and counting a percentage of the ballots.. for every election would go a long way towards eliminating this bullshit.

[FreeState]

25. Oh I agree - however Im not convinced there

was any fraud here. I think it was a combination of things but not fraud. I worry that this is being approached the wrong way and will turn voters off and result in lower turn out in the future.

[stillcool]

31. Why does one need to scream 'fraud'..

in order for an accurate vote count? This should be standard. We should not need a candidate to request that our vote be verified. I don't understand why people are so against verifiable voting. I just don't get it.

[FreeState]

67. See and thats my problem - I firmly believe there should be audits

however, look at DU - nearly everyone wanting a recount appear to be dong because they disagree with the results instead of asking for it for the reasons both of us agree about.

[stillcool]

75. Well..there are many, many people...

here who have put a lot of work and effort into election reform...for years, and years. They are very passionate about the importance of our right to vote and have that vote be counted. If some see that as "Disagreeing" with the results..rather than "demanding accuracy" in the result that is their problem. Just because some don't give a shit about their vote...does not mean the rest of us need to shut the fuck up.

[mirrera]

256. Exactly! n/t

[Peggy Day]

236. not true

[defendandprotect]

103. It's the gut reaction to the results over 45 years that is keeping people home!!!

[maxanne]

139. I fail to see

how verifying the vote will lead to lower voter turnout.

If anything, we'll all feel better knowing that our state is safe, and our votes do count.

You don't seem to be aware that the Paul supporters have been insisting on voter fraud for days.
There are all kinds of conspiracy theories floating around the tubes of the interweb.

[ladjf]

26. Thanks. That was what I tried to say in my post, but, you did it

better.

[stillcool]

43. It's not easy...

I can't believe there is so much resistance to a mere accurate counting of votes. It blows my mind.

[ladjf]

47. In my opinion, the biggest difference between DU now and say

a year ago is the viciousness of the rebuttals to anyone's position on anything the "re-butter" disagrees with. I feel that if a person states a political position about anyone or anything, that's fine. If one disagrees, they should simply state why, rather than personally attacking the original poster's intellect or integrity.

In particular, I hate it when the "re-butter" accuses the poster of being anti-Democrat or possible a "troll" just because they might have made a critical statement about a Democratic politician.

Some Democrats seem to be fair game while others are sacred ground.

Anyway, this place is getting so mean that I have become reluctant to post anything. It doesn't seem constructive.

[stillcool]

48. I've noticed a big difference..

a huge influx of posters in the last week. I wish I knew how many names I can have on my Ignore list. I don't want to fill it up with drive-by's when I might need some space for the heavy-hitters.

[ClintonTyree]

210. I agree 100%....

DU used to be my home-page. Now, if I check in once a day I'm surprised. It's far worse than any election cycle I've ever seen. It's mean, nasty and not-at-all attractive.

I'll be interested to see how the next DU pledge drive goes. Many of the "old guard" DUers have fled and I'm not sure the newbies are going to pick up the monetary slack. We'll see.

[maxanne]

140. it's only because

it was Dennis Kucinich who asked for it.

The good Democrats of DU seem to forget that Dennis Kucinich is a member of their party.

[harmonicon]

22. well, that would be great, wouldn't it?

Then fears of fraud or poorly functioning equipment could be laid to rest. Still, if it was 100 votes, that's 100 too many miscounted votes.

[stillcool]

12. This is going to be expensive..

I hope there will be a fund set up to which we can contribute to help defray the cost of the recount?

[orleans]

169. no no no no no

according to an ap article :

"Candidates who lose by 3 percentage or less are entitled to a recount for a $2,000 fee. Candidates who lose by more must pay for the full cost. Kucinich's campaign said it was sending the $2,000 fee to start the recount."


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hI6F-VhnmJPDIgAFnfu6VPHpqapAD8U3EBKG0

[stillcool]

258. I think that is just to 'start' the recount..... n/t

[cascadiance]

15. Is he also requesting a chain of custody of the scanned ballots?...

I would hope someone is keeping them safe and under lock and key in case they want to F with them if his recount moves forward...

[emlev]

18. Very important.

[defendandprotect]

105. Some might call this over concern . . .but I think it's called for ---

Much of this began before 2000 --- we have to understand that ---
this all began in the mid-1960's . . .

[Evergreen Emerald]

16. Why did he not question those Iowa caucus results where

So many new people came without verification of Iowa residence? Is it only when Obama looses that he is worried?

[ima_sinnic]

28. it's not because Obama lost, per se, it's because of the discrepancies

in the election results compared with the polls--many many polls, which were reproduced here in a thread--going into the election. And because there is a very strong disgruntlement and distrust on the part of the voters. The only people who really trust the results are HRC supporters.

[Evergreen Emerald]

53. the exit polls were correct.

That is such a slap in the face. What? Clinton is cheating? What a load of crap.

[tomp]

144. who says? cnn, skinner? nt

[Evergreen Emerald]

220. the exit polls matched the outcomes

It was not the exit polls, it was the polls ahead of the election.

[tomp]

234. not sure what you're talking about.

i know cnn reported exit polls matching the official outcome, as should have been obvious from my post.

who believes cnn? match exactly? that's pretty damn good and suspect in itself.
how do we explain the 8+ point difference between hand counts and optical scan counts?

i want a reasonable explanation for an 18 pt shift from pre-election polls and i won't rely on cnn to tell me everything's ok. i won't rely on the speculation of pundits as to what MIGHT have happened. i want a recount.

[mhatrw]

304. Of course the exit polls matched the reported results.

They were adjusted to match the reported returns as these returns came in:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4025079&mesg_id=4025079

[harun]

52. Iowa is headcounts with everyone watching, NH is with

actual voting.

[Evergreen Emerald]

54. But the heads were supposed to be Iowa citizens, and there is a thread here

talking about people bragging about being brought in by Obama's people to vote in the caucus.

[madrchsod]

78. no one cares or watches in iowa ..... i voted in clinton iowa and i`m from illinois....

ya.. i just said i did so it must be true!

[Evergreen Emerald]

221. you have no concern for verification?

too obvious

[Windy]

275. Iowa is a caucus. very different. The EXIT polls gave obama a significant win

the results are suspect.

If you believe that HRC won legitimately, you should have no problem with a recount

[StarryNite]

17. Thank you Dennis!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[ladjf]

24. It wouldn't take an inordinate amount of money and time to

verify the votes in New Hampshire. If it were to show that there were no significant discrepancies, no harm done. If big irregularities showed up, then that would be another matter. But, regardless, I think it would be a good idea for all primaries and general elections to have the documentation available to hand count at least a reasonable sample of the statewide votes. American's faith in the election system has been seriously eroded. Spot recounts as a regular practice would help to restore the faith in the system.

[bonito]

32. Thank you Dennis!!!

Theres NO excuse, every time you go to an ATM, theres a verifiable receipt!

There's still HOPE!

[143tbone]

35. Thank you, Dennis!!! n/t

[BulletproofLandshark]

36. Thanks Dennis

I'm glad someone's still interested in fair and transparent elections. Some in this thread appear not to be.

[creeksneakers2]

265. I resent that

If I thought the results were tainted I'd want a recount.

Perhaps its the other way around. All the people who are so concerned about election integrity now weren't concerned before the primary took place. Didn't they care about election integrity then?

[BulletproofLandshark]

344. Speak for yourself.

I've been concerned with electoral integrity since at least the 2000 general election, when I first became politically active. I doubt that I'm alone in that, so don't go thinking this a sour grapes thing. That would be truly ignorant.

[Redneck Socialist]

37. I'm not much of a Kucinich fan, and I don't think there was anything fishy in NH, but...

thank you Dennis. This will be a good test to see just how accurate the optical scan machines in NH are.

[youngharry]

39. NH re-count

Bravo, Dennis. You know this isn't about any candidate, but about ensuring that the promise of the Constitution is respected. One man gets one vote and that vote needs to be counted for the candidate voted. Doesn't matter whether it's a Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent or whether right-wing, left-wing or moderate.
You reflect the greatness of a American citizen for your views and for your voiced opinions.

[BattyDem]

40. I love this man!

:loveya:

This is wonderful for two reasons:
1) We will know once and for all if the Diebold/Premier machines counted the votes accurately.
2) The Repukes will be put on notice: we will NOT roll over and play dead this time, so don't even THINK of trying to steal the General Election!

:woohoo:


If no discrepancies are uncovered, fine. No harm, no foul.

If discrepancies are uncovered, then maybe we can FINALLY get something done about these damn machines so we can be sure that ALL of our votes will be counted accurately in the future.

[Stewie]

41. The recount will show the initial count was correct...

...at which point the conspiracy nuts will claim the recount was rigged. :eyes:

[BulletproofLandshark]

42. So what's wrong with being sure?

If there wasn't a history of electoral discrepancies, Dennis wouldn't have had to bring it up to begin with.

[FREEWILL56]

193. Dennis didn't bring it up as it was not Dennis complaining.

[L.A.dweller]

51. I'm so sick of seeing that phrase thrown around here

"Conspiracy nuts."

What is nutty about asking for a recount to ensure that the election was carried out accurately?
Give me a break! It simply brings satisfaction to the behalf of a majority of people to know
that that our system isn't broken. If it is, perhaps this will give officials an opportunity to fix it.

Where have you been the past 7 years? Head in the sand apparently.

[Peggy Day]

237. Why not have random audits? Is that too logical? Probably

[papau]

257. BINGO - random audits is the ONLY answer to election fraud worries

[djp2]

121. hand verified, witnessed by all parties

Only if the recount is by machine again.. if it is by hand, witnessed, verified, I will believe it.

[creeksneakers2]

266. Exactly!

[mirrera]

278. The re-count in Ohio was rigged and people went to jail for it.

Let us not forget what a conspiracy theory is. An idea based on suspicion that more than one person conspired to do something. Every criminal investigation must begin with a "conspiracy theory". The people who are calling for this are fighting for you whether you want it or not.

[Politicub]

45. This is a press release

Sent over Business Wire, ironically enough.

Nothing like fanning the flames of rumor!

[EFerrari]

49. Self delete.

[rjones2818]

50. Nothing like the flames of rumor to turn out to be true!

http://www.dennis4president.com/go/homepage-items/kucinich-asks-for-new-hampshire-recount-in-the-interest-of-election-integrity/

Go Dennis! :woohoo:
http://dennis4president.com
Vote your conscience, choose peace!

[Politicub]

55. And what started the rumor?

Oh yeah, I remember. Hillary won. :eyes:

[FREEWILL56]

194. It was because of the discrepancies between counting methods.

This could reafirm hillary, but only hrc supporters seem fearfull that it could be true. You whine only because hrc won.

[Politicub]

316. I just think it's a distraction

I'm confident it would reaffirm Hillary, but there are 48 state primaries to go. Hillary, Obama, Edwards - any of them could potentially win.

I guess I just am not seeing the big picture. I agree that BBV = bad, but I would have taken a different approach than DK since he is potentially alienating folks who would otherwise be sympathetic to what he's trying to accomplish (whatever that is).

[drm604]

57. Does anyone here think that there wil actually be a recount?

I think this was simply a request. I don't think he has any legal way to force a recount since it couldn't possibly change the outcome in his favor. Am I mistaken about that?

For the record, I personally think that there should always be a properly conducted hand count of a statistically valid random sampling of ballots in every election.

[Junkdrawer]

59. In 2004, Nader asked for a NH recount....

IIRC, there was weeks of negotiations and then a no-change recount.

[drm604]

94. You're right. I had forgotten about that.

Also, the Green and Libertarian candidates requested a recount of Ohio. IIRC the Ohio recount had to be paid for by the two candidates making the request and they asked for donations to pay for it. I think Ohio law required that they pay for it because the outcome couldn't possibly make a difference to them so they had no right to a free recount.

I'm not sure if Nader had to pay for the New Hampshire recount or not.

[maxanne]

142. this isn't about

changing the outcome for him.

The Secretary of State says he can ask for a recount - but he'll have to pay for it.

[creeksneakers2]

267. That's a good idea

If the recount idea comes after the election it suggests the winner cheated. Its better to audit all results.

[truedelphi]

58. Thirty third kick & r for Dennis

[Stevepol]

60. Audits MUST be REQUIRED for EVERY ELECTION!!!!

Right now, without audits, we don't even have a democracy.

Secret vote-counting without verification = NO DEMOCRACY.

[defendandprotect]

107. The machines and the recounts when done by machine are in private hands!!!

Are we nuts, or what?

[caseycoon]

61. Thank you Dennis! n/t

[AikidoSoul]

63. Dennis Kucinich, the protector and

arbiter of Democracy.

I will never, ever forget this as long as I live... it's a dream come true.

And I do believe that the recount, if properly conducted, will find fraud.

The machines that do the counting are DIEBOLD machines for Crissakes.

DIEBOLD!!!

Was it Stalin that said something like "... it's not the number of votes that count, it's who does the counting that makes the difference."

Something like that.

Diebold is a criminal organization.

If any of you forget that you deserve to be shocked at the results and to eat some crow while the rest of us applaud.

Think I'll save this thread just to be able to deliver crow to the right folks. :evilgrin:

[djp2]

120. Hand recount?

How do we get a HAND recount?

Personally, I think Edwards did much better than the results show.

[Binka]

165. Michael Parenti Was On Flashpoints W/ Dennis Bernstein Tonight

KPFA to be exact and he said the whole thing is a fucking sham. Every fucking poll was spot on EXCEPT the Obama/Clinton race. Down to the minutiae, EXCEPT the Obama/Clinton race. Oops I'm sure that was just some normal anomaly. Why would ANYONE not want to dig for the truth? Beats me they must be lying fuckwittages traveling in packs.

[Diane R]

64. Does Dennis need money for this? I would gladly donate.

[FREEWILL56]

196. If you wish to contribute to DK here is the link to do so.

http://www.dennis4president.com/home/
From what everybody is saying, it is DK's campaign that's paying for it.
edit to add:
You'll see the contribute options on the upper lefthand side for online/mail.

[madrchsod]

71. i can not fucking believe that people here don`t want a recount

it isn`t about who won or lost it`s about testing the integrity of the machines. if those who belittle dennis because he`s asking or believe that the machines are perfect then i feel very very sorry for you. we know that the machines caused kerry to lose and tens of thousands have died as a result but we are not to question the machines. sometimes i really shake my head in disbelief...

[Desertrose]

77. I know the feeling. Why wouldn't ANYONE not want to be sure all votes

are counted properly?!

:crazy:

[Laelth]

88. I can't either.

The astounding "faith" many people here espouse over the reliability of BB Voting machines makes me wonder whether I am in the right place. The Democrats I know are usually upset when polls are not consistent with the reported vote totals.

:shrug:

-Laelth

[maxanne]

143. NH does not use

touch screen machines. We either hand count or use opti-scan machines.

[Laelth]

149. Sorry.

My understanding was that the opti-scan machines were made by Diebold, and their tabulators are fully hackable (even if they're not, technically, black boxes).

:toast:

-Laelth

[maxanne]

151. I was just

trying to provide helpful information - some folks seem confused about how things work in NH.
The machines may be made by Diebold, I seem to remember that some of them are made by ES&S.
I could be wrong about that, though. I live in a place where we hand count - in fact I participated in the count on Tuesday night.

[Laelth]

223. Thanks for your service to democracy!

:toast:

-Laelth

[mirrera]

289. Diebold Accuvote Optical Scanners.

watch this video:

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5537

[Binka]

166. My Son Was Nearly Killed IN 2005 In Ramadi

That would not have happened if the 2004 election was legit. There are people on this site who are working for the enemy. It is just that simple. Think about about the number of posters you see with a star who sound just like Rush. Who paid for their faux legitimacy? The enemy is everywhere, the tentacles of the fucking rapacious repig machine will not cede power easily. Fucking fascists!

[Just-plain-Kathy]

72. Shhhh.. I thought we can't talk about the possible election fraud in NH.

DK, thanks for being a true patriot!

[Tarc]

74. Sad to see Dk has gone the attentino whore route

Beam him up, Scotty.

[madrchsod]

80. hey... i am very content to let the republicans steal another election

and i`m guessing you are too.

[Tarc]

98. The thing is, Mr. Tinfoil

is that there is nothing here to even hint of fraud. All we have is a handful of maniacal Obamaniacs who suffered a rude awakening upon seeing that their chosen candidate really doesn't walk on water.

[cascadiance]

134. You must just LOVE Faith-based Voting! Some churches would love to have you...

Me, I think any time there are statistical anomalies with these frickin' machines, they HAVE to be checked, or else it sets the bar too low for when it counts for a lot more later! Don't forget, Brad Friedman was also monitoring Republican primaries in 2004, when there was some messed up machine configurations in their elections that had they not been hand counted would have given the nomination to the wrong guy in some local races. This ISN'T a partisan issue. It is about the integrity of our voting systems. Without it we have NO democracy sir!

[maxanne]

145. horse hockey

Ron Paul's supporters have been agitating about fraud for days.

What's really sad, is that if Ron Paul had demanded a recount, you'd call him a hero.

[Tarc]

247. An utterly stupid comment by you

Um, and just why would I be a Paul supporter? He's an idiot who wants to rid us of all international commitments (including the UN), has issued racist newsletters in the past, and does not believe in evolution.

[maxanne]

249. being called stupid

by you is like being called ugly by a frog.

Apparently you weren't able to read and comprehend my initial post. I didn't say you were a Paul supporter. Try again.

[Tarc]

255. Read slowly, maybe it'll sink in

Obviously if someone was going to cheer on something like this if it came from Paul, chances are they would be generally supportive of such a candidate. I am not, as I do not like him at all, either as presidential material or on a personal level. So, your basic premise of "if Paul said it, I'd support it" is demonstrably false, as I do not give his words even a shred of weight or importance.

That's two strikes for you now; coming up for a chance at #3 or are you done making a fool of yourself?

[maxanne]

264. given

that I never said you were a Paul supporter, you would appear to be the one having reading problems.

Your only reason for posting on this thread was to say something nasty about a fellow Democrat - assuming
you are indeed a Democrat. If you aren't - which, given your negativity about a fellow Democrat - one could
speculate that you would indeed cheer on the bizarre little doctor, had he cared enough to demand a recount.

[Tarc]

271. Wow, you are hopeless

and now ignored.

ta-ta.

[maxanne]

274. Let's summarize, shall we?

You're trashing a fellow Democrat and calling me hopeless.


riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

[tomp]

148. sorry, but that's just factually incorrect.

1) there are hints of something fishy (18 pt. poll shift, significant difference in hand and machine count percentages).

1) i am not an obamamaniac.

[Tarc]

250. Educate yourself, please

You'll come off less foolish in the future. Start here; http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1/10/02623/2264

[tomp]

319. watch who you're calling foolish, fool.

i went and checked out your linked article and it doesn't change a thing from my perspective.

you said there was NO HINT of fraud. i gave several examples of hints.

you said the only people alleging fraud were obamamaniacs. because i am not an obama supporter you are wrong on that count also (and that's not counting the many others here who claim to be supporters of other candidates who want to make sure the count is fair).

you're demonstrably WRONG in your post, as in "factually incorrect". believe whatever you want as to whether there was fraud or not, you're still wrong in your post.

it's as simple as that. save the arrogance for someone who cares.

[cloudythescribbler]

160. Here is that canard again -- as if there were NO issue w/the exit polls

All you have to do is just namecall those raising the issue, and AVOID even acknowledging the evidence.

Note that Kucinich himself is NOT an Obamaniac, and was impressed by the differential between the ballots counted by hand and those counted by Diebold machines.

It is important to look at evidence and REALLY keep an open mind, just as it is important to REALLY tolerate dissent and not just talk a good democratic game.....

[hayu_lol]

89. Obviously, it is time for New Hampshire Reps to head for Ohio...

and begin a thorough investigation into Diebold/Premier. This is Dennis's problem and he has never handled it. This is just more grandstanding on his part.

Dennis will not take care of the people of his own state...but has to rush off to another state to gain headlines and watch his status sink even lower.

He has problems at home. Ohio needs a working Rep and not a gadabout seeking attention and 'glory.'

[maxanne]

147. you would

hate him no matter what he did. Please don't pretend otherwise.

Nice to see the Democratic Party solidarity at work.

[defendandprotect]

108. Send me more "attention whores" like Kuchinich --- !!! Love him !!

[frog92969]

157. We meet again.

Do you live to slam Kucinich and his supporters?

[Tarc]

245. You give us so much comedy material

It is hard to resist.

[7horses]

79. We need to find out now...

if there is a problem with the votes.  How many elections will
the Democrats allow the Republicans to steal?  What harm can a
recount do?  Are we not all Democrats?  Will we not all
support whomever the Democratic nominee turns out to be?  If
not then, we deserve what we get. We are Democrats... we are
better than the mean spirited name calling that takes place on
some of these posts.

[Junkdrawer]

81. BRAD BLOG HAS MORE.....

The BRAD BLOG has just spoken with a Kucinich press spokesperson who was not yet aware of the full scope of the hand count being called for. As we can learn more, of course, we will share it.

....

We would also caution Kucinich and his team, to closely inspect the chain-of-custody for the ballots in question, and what has happened to them, and the vulnerable op-scan memory cards, since the election two days ago, during the period that concern has been widely expressed about the seemingly anomalous results of Tuesday's election. It's important that the chain of custody be both secure, and fully logged and transparent.

Granite State Election Integrity watchdog group, New Hampshire for Democracy's, Nancy Tobi has previously noted her concern in earlier discussions about the possibility of hand counting the state's op-scan primary ballots.

"We have no control over the ballot chain of custody and we have learned the pain from the 2004 Nader recount, in which only 11 districts were counted, chosen by a highly questionable person, and then nothing showed up," she wrote recently. "Now all we hear is how the Nader recount validated the machines. A candidate asking for a recount may well be a tool used to 'prove" everything was okay and then that candidate will be further discredited," she warned.

....

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5544

[defendandprotect]

110. Thank you for this info . . . !!!! So Nader didn't actually get a recount --- !!!

"We have no control over the ballot chain of custody and we have learned the pain from the 2004 Nader recount, in which only 11 districts were counted, chosen by a highly questionable person, and then nothing showed up," she wrote recently. "Now all we hear is how the Nader recount validated the machines. A candidate asking for a recount may well be a tool used to 'prove" everything was okay and then that candidate will be further discredited," she warned.

And we just had a scandal recently where two women were "organizing" the votes that they
were selecting to be counted --- in order to forestall a full recount!!!

Where was that---?

[drm604]

155. Ohio, I believe. n/t

[BrightKnight]

83. WOLF!! WOLF!! WOLF!! WOLF!! WOLF!! WOLF!! WOLF!! - n/t

[rayofreason]

84. My first thought was "Bullshit!"...

...but is it really true that that paper ballot precincts went for Obama and the electronic ones went for Clinton?

If so, then there is something rotten in the state of Denmark.

I always suspected the Clintons of dirty tricks, but this would be going way far. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so if I don't see some soon I'll go back to my original position - Bullshit!

[madrchsod]

87. jesus don`t blame anyone-clinton, obama, or anyone else

let`s see what the results are first...

[defendandprotect]

111. Aren't the Diebold machines technically in GOP hands????

Why think that Clinton engineered this?

GOP has a long history of interferring in Democratic primaries ---
often by cross-over voting ---

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

130. Exactly - if any monkey business occurred, I would first suspect the GOP

of trying to manipulate an election long before I would suspect the Clintons. I'm not saying anything happened, but what can it hurt to have a recount?

[defendandprotect]

315. Yes . . . and the recounts are also complicated . . . you have to ensure that

you protect the votes --- chain of command ---
and you have to be sure that the first areas counted which they use as a "test"
to determine if a full recount is necessary . . . . isn't manipulated ---
that is handpicked votes to show that there are no problems.

There was a story last week at DU about two female election workers who were doing
just that!!!

[djp2]

123. Not Clintons

I don't think it is the Clintons I don't trust, its the repugs who want to have Clinton as their opponent. Much easier to beat than Obama. But I think it's really Edwards that was robbed.

[maxanne]

146. no

that isn't true.

Clinton won the biggest cities, but Obama won some of the smaller ones. All use the same opti-scan machines.

[rayofreason]

239. Thanks.

I've seen a lot of FUD posted. Do you have a link to a comprehensive analysis of the voting that puts these rumors to rest?

I would prefer to know that Hillary won fair and square.

[Peace Patriot]

288. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"? Nope, not re Elections.

Elections are guilty until proven innocent. The burden of proof is on the government to establish, up front, that every vote was counted, that the count was accurate and that the will of the people was transparently expressed.

This is so fundamental to democracy that it seems weird to have to say it. The right to vote INHERENTLY includes the right to a transparent vote count. Non-transparent elections are NOT elections. They are tyranny. A great deal of power and money is at stake in elections. Motives for fraud abound. Therefore, in a democracy, it is the obligation of the government, of those with the power, to establish, beyond reasonable doubt, that the tyranny of election fraud has not been committed.

No "extraordinary proof" needs to be produced by citizens and voters. If the election is non-transparent, fraud must be presumed, until proven otherwise by the corrupt bastards who are counting the votes behind a veil of corporate secrecy.

With 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY (private corporate) vote tabulation, and miserably inadequate audits (0% to 1%--that is, 99% to 100% of the actual ballots are never counted by anybody), the ONLY "proof" of election fraud that citizens and voters can obtain, short of a recount, is inferential. Then some wag comes along and says, "Uh-uh, extraordinary claims...etc." Nice try. The people have been DENIED THE RIGHT AND THE POWER to obtain the proof they need, because the whole thing (including the exit polls) is done in as a private, secret, corporate process.

But the people shouldn't have to have ANY proof. THERE SHOULD BE NO UNCERTAINTY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Either a ballot is marked for Clinton or for Obama or others. There should be no uncertainty in what the count of those ballots is, except perhaps for stray marks on the ballot or overvoting (marking two boxes), etc.--which is supposed to be handled in the open. But the BALLOT is NOT what is "counted" in a Diebold election. The ballot is SCANNED INTO a highly riggable electronic system, and the ELECTRONS whizzing through the airwaves is what is "counted." The ballot goes into a box and is shoved aside, and never seen again--except for, at best, a 1% audit. And EVEN IN A RECOUNT, these days, they only check maybe 3% of the actual ballots--and that is done in difficult, complicated "chain of custody" circumstances, and with further involvement of electronics (for instance, in choosing which 3% to count), and is so difficult for ordinary citizens to obtain, and to monitor, that the recount itself is often just another "can of worms."

This process is so non-transparent, and so riggable, as to be absurd.

Your suggestion that "extraordinary evidence" is required, when inferential evidence points to fraud, or fraud is claimed, in this egregiously non-transparent system, is also absurd. It reminds me of Dick Cheney's (or was it Karl Rove's?) claim, when asked how they won the 2004 election, that it was their "invisible get-out-the-vote campaign in the churches," and no proof, no evidence, no facts, no warm church bodies in large numbers, were required by the corporate news monopolies in support of that assertion--the corporate news monopolies, who also ignored volumes of evidence that Bush/Cheney didn't win.

In elections that are based on hot air, anyone can claim anything. Non-transparent elections create that atmosphere of uncertainty, of anxiety, of chaos. And when the fraudulent election system then produces a suspected fraudulent result, wags get to say, "No-no, Tinfoil Hat, where's the hard proof?"

The ONLY remedy for this putrid political atmosphere is COUNTING. EVERY. VOTE. IN. PUBLIC. VIEW.

And your requirement of "extraordinary evidence" militates against the remedy--against transparent vote counting--because it says: The burden is on the citizens and voters, not on the government.

[Laelth]

85. Most impressive!

Once again, DK has the courage to do what our spineless "leaders" will not.

:patriot:

-Laelth

[truthisfreedom]

90. I fully support this and I would help fund it. I'm in for $1k. Show me where to sign up.

Kucinich definitely has it right this time.

[hedgehog]

91. Holy shit!

[Prana69]

97. Counting the vote - It's not rocket science...

I know it's not really going to assist you at this stage in your democratic evolution, nor your electoral cycle, but here in Australia we have a really novel and trust-worthy way of voting and having those votes count. It goes like this:

1. Voter turns up at voting booth, confirms identity and registration details, and is then handed a piece of paper with a list of all the candidates and an empty box beside each candidate's name.

2. Voter takes ballot paper to a "private" box and, using a pencil, puts a 1 in the box next to his/her preferred candidate.

3. Voter puts completed ballot paper in a secure box.

4. At the close of voting, government paid electoral officers and registered volunteers open the boxes and count the votes on site, under the scrutiny of officers from the Australian Eectoral Commission (independent statutory authority).

5. Where discrepancies occur, or recounts are requested / required (which is very rare), "scrutineers" from the candidate's parties over-see the recount and ensure that the votes are correctly allocated.

I know it probably seems really primitive and backward to you peeps in "the greatest democracy on earth", but trust me - it works.

Why anyone would NOT want to support an electoral process where the vote is hard copy verifiable, and the count is done in public and under independent scrutiny, is beyond me.

My two-cents. Sorry it's not of much use to you, but the counting process in US elections, and the opportunity for it to be tampered with, just astounds me.

All that said, I am interested in seeing a recount go ahead and what results it turns up. The polls and the result do seem quite extraordinary. There are many outside of the US who are watching these primaries with great interest as the impact of this election will resonate throughout the globe.

Peace. DR

[djp2]

126. Almighty corporation

Thank the "PRIVATIZATION" of America. The Almighty Corporation rules!Any way for a corporation to make a buck!

[FREEWILL56]

198. Welcome to DU.

Do know these machines weren't the idea of the people as they were more the brainchild of the republican party in cooperation with corporate America. By hook and crook they are going in and leaving great doubts on the validity of the results because it is corruptable in many ways. They aren't everywhere just yet, but far too many areas have them and that gives a degree of control over election results when certain elements want to exercise it.
Do not be smug in putting down this great Democracy as yours too under the right circumstances is not immune from being thwarted in a similar manor. It is the fascist elements that are doing this and that's what you have to watch for.

[defendandprotect]

99. NOTE THIS: “Ever since the 2000 election – and even before –

So -- there you go folks --- we haven't been in this unbelievable situation of
questioning how Americans could be voting this way just since 2000 ---

this goes back to the first computers being put in during the mid-1960's ---

PLEASE see VOTESCAM ---

and for the paranoids . . . NO, it has nothing to do with Bev Harris!!!:nuke:

[Infinite Hope]

104. Good. n/t

[ClayZ]

106. Bravo, Dennis! K and R

[maryallen]

112. Yay, Dennis!!!

Way to go!
Somebody's got to lead, and you answered the call.

Thank you.

[Tuesday_Morning]

113. Love you, Dennis!

Thank you.

:applause:

[DanG2012]

115. I love this guy !

One of only TWO running with the balls to stand up and be counted.

don't get me started.

[patch1234]

119. how long does he have to file (for a recount)? n/t

[snot]

124. Yay Dennis! nt

[peacetalksforall]

128. Is this like the Presidential final vote - that a recount request can only come from

one of the candidates? I say Thank You Dennis! Let's do it over and over. We need to send money to Dennis to make sure he stays in whether or not he is given any attention by corporation tv.

[ooglymoogly]

129. Thank you Dennis for rekindling my admiration KR

[MetaTrope]

135. Are the congressional aides being lined up to riot outside the recount rooms now?

[OKthatsIT]

138. It's $70,000 out of his meager funds...send him money!

[Emillereid]

141. I don't know why anyone could be against this brave move by Dennis.

A. There have been a lot of questions and rumors swirling around the internet and here at DU ... and if the hand tallies agree with the machines then this act would put the fears to rest.
B. It might put the rest of the country on notice on the inherent problems with election machines - since the NYT has begun to wake up, maybe the rest of the media might give this issue the attention it deserves. I would like to see random sampling of all machine counted to votes to make sure they are accurate.
C. Clinton supporters need not worry, who knows, she might have received more votes.

[Blue State Bandit]

154. Brad is posting this too

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5544

[zenturtle]

167. Thanks for the bradblog link -- if it is true

as reported here that the official hand-counted and computer-counted percentages for Clinton and Obama are EXACTLY reversed, than something is fishy, indeed. All the more so given the inexplicable pre- and exit polling discrepancy. Nationalist Public Radio did a (crappy) story on this issue this evening, and they and their "expert" Kohut basically shrugged their shoulders, unable to construct a plausible explanation for the huge discrepancy (and completely ignoring the elephant in the room, of course). Thank you for taking up this issue (and many others), Dennis Kucinich!

[FlyingSquirrel]

156. My MAN!!!!!!!!!

:smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke:

Smoke 'em if ya got em!

[JMDEM]

159. Oh Crap. Now I have to vote for Kucinich, period. The little guy's got big kahunas. nt.

[Emillereid]

161. Paul supporters claim huge discrepancy between hand counted vote and machine.

I can't verify the truthfulness of any of this -- just reporting what's going on.

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/23643
Compare Hand-Count to 8% total - Something Fishy!
Posted January 9th, 2008 by reformer
richmond is hand count 34% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
lyman is hand count 28.7% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
Orange is hand count 25% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
Harts location is hand count 25% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
wentworth is hand count 24% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
goshen is hand count 17.68% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
marlow is hand count 16.6% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
cornish is hand count 14.8% for dr. Paul...100% reporting
Rumney is hand count 14.5% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
croydon is hand count 14 % for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
dorchester is hand count 13.89% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
effingham is hand count 13% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
albany is hand count 12.9% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
antrim is hand count 12% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
south hampton is hand count 12% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
sullivan is hand count 12.61% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
troy is hand count 12.21% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
mason is hand count 11.88% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
newport is hand count 11.45% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
charlstown is hand count 11.3% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
Allenstown is hand count 11.16% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
bristol is hand count 11% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
warren is hand count 11% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
Strafford is hand count 11% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
washington is hand count 11.02% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
lancaster is hand count 10.9% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
springfield is hand count 10.6% for Dr.Paul...100% reporting
wilton is hand count 10.37% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
Northfield is hand count 10.3% for Dr. Paul...100% reporting
mont vernon is hand count 10.25% for Dr.

[Recursion]

311. Paul supporters are noting whole counties reporting 0 votes for Paul

When those counties have active Paul '08 organizations. People saying "I know I voted in that country for Paul so that 0 must be wrong".

Will a recount apply to both parties or just the one of the candidate that pays for it? Paul says he has the money to pay for the recount; but I don't know if that means Kucinich would still have to do it for our side.

[zenabraham]

162. Impact of Kucinich Recount Request On Obama, Clinton - Video

I think this is HUGE and in my video I show how this will swing the NH election outcome:

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbhiBhgm-dA

[lisainmilo]

164. Right On!

I am glad! Good for Dennis! :)

[politicallore]

168. what a

This is a great man...
Way too extreme beliefs for me, but a great man.

[orleans]

173. i am so fucking happy to hear this. and relieved.

now...if there is a problem we can detect w/these machines, i think we should build a recycling center where every state can dump these motherfu*kers and we'll make park benches out of them

[orleans]

174. recommend! recommend! recommend!

[Spiffarino]

175. Great. Good for Dennis and good for democracy.

By hand-counting the ballots we may finally put to rest all of the rumors about Hillary's NH victory. If it does turn out there were discrepancies, just as well. At least we'll know so we can fix the bastards who are fixing the votes.

Ultimately, this is good for the democratic process because it will prove that Democrats truly do care about votes and voters. If the Democratic candidates are smart, they will embrace this - no, if they're smart they will insist it be done immediately - and see it through to the last ballot.

[99th_Monkey]

176. Again, Dennis show balls of steel where others fear to tread. THANK YOU DENNIS!!!

[Khaotic]

177. Hell Yeah!

Let's make this happen.

I'm stunned at how many DU'rs are freaking out and against this.

What the hell.

I have to wonder if you would have been against a statewide recount in Florida or Ohio.

The machines used in N.H. are the same machines used in the HBO Black Box Voting documentary.

The paper ballots are there, why not recount them?

We're talking about a primary here, Dems checking Dems. This should show the rest of the country that we're more concerned about the integrity of our voting machines than any one candidate.

This never did go down in Ohio, and what did go down was cherry picked by the Rethug there who promised a Rethug win. Then there was the dude from Diebold who promised a Rethug win in Ohio as well.

How many Du'rs are there here that were boing ape shit about that, but now they break out the tin foil hats and call Kucinich crazy?

While he might not be a viable candidate to occupy the White House, he's a fighter and is probably still in the race for reasons just like this.

If the paper ballots add up and mirror the electronic counts then fine ... good in fact. Then we can grimace at the "kool-aid" and go about our business with a little more confidence in the machines.

I've heard reports that the machines in S.C. are even MORE unreliable than N.H., so it's better to get this out of the way.

If this is all just tin foil hat shit, then why are more and more states pushing to get rid of the electronic voting machines????

To hell with this shit, this needs to happen.

What are we afraid of? The entire country's voting system going into question? Are we afraid there will be unrest in the streets and the entire country will look like Kenya does from there elections?

No it won't.

If there's shit to be exposed then it needs to be exposed. If there's nothing there to expose, but racial prejudice, or the fact that N.H. women acted as a huge collective and all turned to Hillary because of her weeping moment, then so be it.

I don't personally buy it and know that most people don't watch cable news. Most are clued to the likes of American Idol ... even in N.H. on the eve of the primary. That's why campaigns employ legions of people on phone banks and bang on every door in the state for votes.

The precious Hillary "human" moment wasn't even seen by many N.H. voters. Maybe they walked past a snapshot of it on a newspaper they didn't buy ... that's about it.

Why are the pundits acting as if every American is a huge political news junkie??? Acting as if every N.H. primary voter was in attendance at every rally??? That they were all glued to their tv sets watching the so called critical moment between Hillary and Chris Matthews? Or that every N.H. woman stewed and stewed over the petty comment Obama had after Hillary said she thinks she's likeable???

Oh yeah, sure ... a HUGE 14% swing because Obama said, "you're likeable enough." Ooooooooo, how pompous of him. Get out the word, women of N.H. revolt and unite!!!!!

What the hell!?!

We all know for damn straight and sure that it is almost impossible to swing the public's opinion from one direction to another on a dime. It just doesn't happen.

Maybe if there was a HUGE definitive front-page campaign to defame Obama and a massive media agreement all giving a nod to Hillary ... maybe. But no, even the Clinton's thought N.H. was lost. The only question was how bad the loss would be.

Chris Matthews comes out and tells his audience that the exit polls he saw had Obama up by 8 points.

How is it that Obama was up in the pre-primary polls and up in the exit polls, and loses?

People lied before the election, voted differently than what they told pollsters they were going to vote, then turned around and left their polling place, and lied again and told the exit pollsters that they just voted for someone that they didn't vote for!!!

This is insane.

Exit polls are spot on because people don't lie about who they just voted for. They have no reason to lie about it.

The recount is the only way to come close to anything definitive to explain the discrepancies.

No sour grapes ... just a yearning for fair and accurate elections. Period.

[deacon]

180. Good move DK. n/t

[frog92969]

181. "No Recount Please"

No, I'm not a Clinton supporter.
Here's some VERY valuable food for thought.

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/30018

I was all for a recount, now I wonder.

[slay]

185. This should be the FIRST audit/recount for 2008, not the only one

This needs to be done with polling places and ballots chosen at random, and needs to be done every time we let computers count our votes. I agree with the spirit of the downingstreet link - it needs to be an honest recount/audit, but one is DESPERATELY needed - we do not have time to hope the establishment opts for "structural change" - cause that may never happen. RECOUNT/AUDIT THEM ALL I say! :)

[lonestarnot]

182. What the hell?

:applause: DENNIS! Keep them the fuck on their toes in advance!

[Faux pas]

183. Dennis can 'whine' for my rights anytime. He's the only candidate

with balls and a conscience. Go Dennis! :applause:

[tom_paine]

186. DK is truly looking out for us. It is NOT about who won or lost.

It is about privatized non-trasparent "voting" which happens to be owned and controlled by Bushies, and which inpsectors are not allowed to check out because it's "proprietary".

Funny how that isn't the case for video poker and electronic slot machines...

[katmondoo]

187. He is being ridiculous

He just wants more worship from his followers. I thought we were Democrats here. Even the Hillary camp thought they would lose. Is Rove now in the Kucinich campaign?

[cyclezealot]

190. Should Diebolt do a job on Hillary's November vote

We'll see whose ox is getting gored. It will be yours. Who will you turn to then.

[Richard Steele]

277. Why are you afraid of a fair and accurate election so much?

[Highway61]

290. WHAT?????????????

:wtf:

[cyclezealot]

188. Kucinich fight with Diebold predates Clinton/O'Bama feud.

It has to do with Diebolt's control of our vote process. Hillary people might be sensitive to recounts. Think the big picture. What will your positions be in November say in a Clinton/ Giuiliani race. Think beyond today's headlines.
&&&

Typically, Kucinich was ahead of the curve on an important issue. In November, he seized on concerns about the reliability of electronic voting machines produced by Diebold Inc., one of the nation's largest voting equipment manufacturers. Those concerns were stirred by the revelation that Diebold employees had expressed concerns in e-mails about the security of machines produced by the company.

Diebold sought to shut down any debate about its machines by threatening legal actions against operators of Web sites that were publishing or linking to corporate documents that detailed flaws in Diebold equipment and irregularities in the certifying of the company's systems for elections.

When he learned of the legal threats, Kucinich took on the politically potent corporation. The Ohio congressman asked House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jim Sensenbrenner, R-Menomonee Falls, and the ranking Democrat on that committee, Rep. John Conyers of Michigan, to investigate whether the company's actions were potential abuses of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. He also posted the controversial documents on his congressional Web site.

Diebold quickly backed down. And Kucinich used the development to declare, "In a democracy where half the people don't vote and where the last presidential election was decided by the Supreme Court, we cannot tolerate flawed voting equipment or intimidation of those who point out the flaws. Diebold backing down from its intimidation campaign is a positive step. An open and honest examination of the flaws in electronic voting will lead us to only one possible conclusion: electronic voting machines are dangerous to democracy because there is no way of ensuring their accuracy. We have to have a voter-verified paper trail for every election so that any errors and irregularities caused by the voting machines can be recovered."

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1209-16.htm

[cyclezealot]

189. Diebolt wants no audit of their Opti Scan system.

While I have no evidence at this time --- let me repeat, no evidence at this time --- of chicanery, what we do know is that chicanery, with this particular voting system, is not particularly difficult. Particularly when one private company --- and a less-than-respectable one at that, as I detailed in the previous post --- runs the entire process.

I should also note that some 40% of New Hampshire's precincts are hand-counted, which equals about 25% of the votes. All the rest are counted on hackable Diebold op-scan systems, with completely hackable memory cards, all programmed and managed by LHS Associates. As Bev Harris of BlackBoxVoting.org who seems to share my concern, says, LHS is the "chain of custody" in New Hampshire elections.

Other folks that I've spoken to, who follow this sort of thing, share my concern at this hour. Harris noted that it will be interesting to compare numbers of the hand-counted precincts with those counted on the hackable Diebold op-scan systems

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5530

[Enthusiast]

197. Katmondo, you mis characterize

Katmondo, you mis characterize Dennis. Why? You sound exactly like those Republican obfuscators after the 2000 Florida election. Dennis is nothing like you suggest. I believe you are a Rovian operative. Don't you want the true vote count? Apparently not.

[sss1977]

195. If you have a problem with any recount

Don't call yourself a believer in democracy.

DK needs a standing ovation for this if it actually happens. This is not a Hillary vs. Obama issue. This is a US voter vs. Diebold issue. Our election process is in dire straits and people seem afraid to even confront the issue. Anything that could shine a light on the problems of using something as insane as a Diebold Accuscan to count 80% of an election is a good thing.

My only concern is the pre-sorting that can occur with a recount. It's completely possible as we saw in Hacking Democracy, for those with custody of the votes to hand select a sample to match the results, instead of randomly selecting a sample for a true recount.

Also, don't forget people, that in some states, recounts are even part of the process. It's automatic to ensure the validity of the election. What's wrong with that? It's like double-checking your work before you turn it in. It's common sense. So what if it costs more money? This is our democracy we're talking about. If our votes aren't being counted, what's the point of any of this? Swallow your pride and let's make sure each state's elections provide valid results.

And finally, none of this would even be an issue at all, if our elections were truly transparent and independently verified. The concept of corporations making profit from the process of voting, to me is sickening. It's bad enough we allow profit to be a determining factor in our health care. Profit should not be a part of our elections. Open-source is the way to go. Transparency is the way to go. Anything less is not what this country was founded on. If you want a democracy, then fucking support the concept of democracy instead of crying sour grapes.

Every single one of you using the terms sore-loser and sour grapes should be fucking ashamed of yourselves considering those same words used against Gore supporters in 2000 and Kerry Supporters in 2004, which I'm guessing most likely describes yourselves.

[FREEWILL56]

200. Very well put and welcome to DU.

[LostinVA]

214. whatthefuckever

[Hope And Change]

199. Kucinich Seeks NH Dem Vote Recount

Kucinich Seeks NH Dem Vote Recount


Jan 10, 10:40 PM (ET)

By STEPHEN FROTHINGHAM

CONCORD, N.H. (AP) - Democrat Dennis Kucinich, who won less than 2 percent of the vote in the New Hampshire primary, said Thursday he wants a recount to ensure that all ballots in his party's contest were counted. The Ohio congressman cited "serious and credible reports, allegations and rumors" about the integrity of Tuesday results.

Deputy Secretary of State David Scanlan said Kucinich is entitled to a statewide recount. But, under New Hampshire law, Kucinich will have to pay for it. Scanlan said he had "every confidence" the results are accurate.

In a letter dated Thursday, Kucinich said he does not expect significant changes in his vote total, but wants assurance that "100 percent of the voters had 100 percent of their votes counted."

Kucinich alluded to online reports alleging disparities around the state between hand-counted ballots, which tended to favor Sen. Barack Obama, and machine-counted ones that tended to favor Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton. He also noted the difference between pre-election polls, which indicated Obama would win, and Clinton's triumph by a 39 percent to 37 percent margin.

Candidates who lose by 3 percentage or less are entitled to a recount for a $2,000 fee. Candidates who lose by more must pay for the full cost. Kucinich's campaign said it was sending the $2,000 fee to start the recount.

Scanlon said his office had received several phone calls since Tuesday, mostly from outside the state, questioning the results. New Hampshire's voting machines are not linked in any way, which Scanlon says reduce the likelihood of tampering with results on a statewide level. Also, the results can be checked against paper ballots.

"I think people from out of state don't completely understand how our process works and they compare it to the system that might exist in Florida or Ohio, where they have had serious problems," he said. "Perhaps the best thing that could happen for us is to have a recount to show the people that ... the votes that were cast on election day were accurately reflected in the results. And I have every confidence that will be the case."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080111/D8U3EBKG0.html">Link

[riqster]

224. I'm sending DK an email asking if there's a special account to donate to

I'll pony up a few bucks to put the Fraudistas on notice.

[stillcool]

260. If you can find a link...

to contribute...could you post it please?

[riqster]

268. Absolutely!

If I don't hear back, I'll just donate to the campaign via ActBlue tomorrow. This man deserves suppport!

[stillcool]

270. thanks...

[riqster]

346. Haven't heard yet, so I went to DK's website

He's not specifically asking for recount fund donations to a certain account, but I know the man needs cash-no corporate fat cats to line his pockets like the other candidates.

I'm donating to his campaign.

[Android3.14]

201. Only a fool would say not to look

The doctor says, "Most of tests indicate your pretty healthy, but a couple of serious discrepancies indicate you have a small chance of having a malignant cancer.

"Shall we spend the money for the test?"

Only a damn fool says no.

[boricua79]

205. now THAT's classy

even though he knows he won't win, he still acts for a recount for the benefit of the American people.

How selfless of him.

That's why I love Dennis Kucinich, and that's why he would have made a great president.

[NavyDavy]

222. unless he lost , which he would, he'd be asking for recounts

[boricua79]

229. Kucinich is very aware

that his candidacy is a long shot...but people of conscience still put an effort forward in the hopes that somehow, someway, right will prevail.

Kucinich knows that he has absolutely no chance, based on current polling. he's aware. I'm glad SOMEONE is making a stink about the very unusual results in NH. Go to the Election forum on DU...there's a lot of very suspicious results regarding the NH election, and they were all done on the compromised Diebold machines that had been hacked by Black Box Voting. The SAME EXACT MODEL. No reform or upgrades or changes were done.

Notice he didn't make a recount request for Iowa. That should prove it's not sour grapes.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

207. Will this thread also be tossed into the Election Reform bin?

Hope not...

[Vinca]

211. It's a fine idea, but probably a waste of money in a New Hampshire

primary. Since memebers of the opposing party can change their affiliation to Independent and crossover to vote, the outcome can be "rigged" fairly easily and LEGALLY without involving the voting machines at all. I'd rather see this done in a state without crossover voting.

[pjt7]

218. From the DU posts

it seems like a large majority are in favor of a hand re-count. I'd like to especially applaud all Hillary Clinton supporters who realize how important it is to have an open & clean voter count process, for the whole Nation.

[droidamus2]

212. Why Not?

Though I don't expect a recount to change anything why not do one? My reasoning is that if people are using the computerized systems to steal elections this will put them on notice that we will recount every last vote if it is necessary to verify the election. If they are doing what they are accused of doing the one thing they have to be afraid of is a complete review of an election. Once they are caught they are not only out of business but should be in jail for a very long time.

[riqster]

215. Glad to see that Kucinich has learned to listen

...it has long been his Achilles' heel.

The noise got made, he listened, thought about it, and took action. I am very pleased with my candidate's progression over the last six months, and and so proud that Election Integrity activists FINALLY have someone on our side. We've always had the facts, now we need Kooch and others in his position to step up.

[paparush]

225. Awesome! Tell them Dennis! Tell them we have NO FAITH in touch screen voting.

Tell them we have NO FAITH in voting that does not create a paper trail

Tell them we have NO FAITH in the legitimacy of our current electoral process.

[MaineDem]

228. NH does not have touch screen voting

It has a complete paper trail.

[Tarc]

251. Don't tap on the glass

it confuses the fish.

Sadly, these sorts of people are not going to be swayed by facts.

[codeindigo]

230. do you think they will?

:shrug: wow! that would be something.

[raebrek]

233. I say it is never to early to start checking the counts.

Why wait until the General election to make sure it is done right.

Raebrek!!!

[bdamomma]

242. I just heard Dennis on Stephanie Miller and a recount

costs money please donate any amount, this is all about election process and we have to restore integity in our voting system before Nov. 2008 or do we really need to see another stolen election going to a repig, now that's a scary thought.

[defendandprotect]

301. Kucinich should get some guarantees of how this is to be done . . .

"We have no control over the ballot chain of custody and we have learned the pain from the 2004 Nader recount, in which only 11 districts were counted, chosen by a highly questionable person, and then nothing showed up," she wrote recently. "Now all we hear is how the Nader recount validated the machines. A candidate asking for a recount may well be a tool used to 'prove" everything was okay and then that candidate will be further discredited," she warned.

In other words, Nader never got a real recount ---

And just recently we had two women in court because they were organizing votes in what seemed like an effort to forestall a recount!

[Joe Chi Minh]

325. This appeared in OpEdNews.com this morning:

http://www.opednews.com:80/articles/genera_bev_harr_080111_recount___is_dennis_.htm

Whatever your opinion of Bev Harris, it looks as if Dennis has fallen into a trap. It never seems to end, does it?

[Truthiness]

248. Thanks Dennis - you ROCK! I might must vote for you now

Assuming my vote is counted, that is.

[humbled_opinion]

262. Recently revealed info on Alien Probing Of Uranus...n/t

[pjt7]

263. check out these numbers

Clinton Optical scan 91,717 52.95%
Obama Optical scan 81,495 47.05%

Clinton Hand-counted 20,889 47.05%
Obama Hand-counted 23,509 52.95%

[creeksneakers2]

272. Apples to oranges n/t

[humbled_opinion]

284. If those numbers are legit..

Than of course there needs to be an investigation. However, supposition and heresay do not make a case... Where did you get those by the way?

[pjt7]

305. humbled opinion

I got the numbers from http://www.electiondefensealliance.org/

I spoke with one of their members for over an hour. He said the chances for those numbers are 1 in 600.

Democracy is not given to us anymore, we have to intelligently fight to get her back!

[SOS]

276. Thank you Dennis!

kick

[Little Star]

279. Election Integrity, my ass! Tell him to start in IA which borders IL.

[peabody71]

285. Right on Dennis!

It is a simple request.

[Uncle Joe]

286. I believe Dennis Kucinich makes a good point regarding vote counting integrity.

Thanks for the thread, Ichingcarpenter.

[mckara]

293. Hooray for Dennis!

Machine-counted elections should be closely scrutinized until the machines are hack-proof, and reliable. Our voting processes must ensure all citizens that the will of the People is being expressed through the ballot box!

[Summer93]

298. The Principle of voting

is to register 1 vote for each person. If the election boards cannot show that one vote has been taken for each person and that the vote was counted correctly the WE HAVE AN ILLEGAL ELECTION.

[sam kane]

299. Impeach Bush, Impeach Diebold! Go Dennis! n/t

[defendandprotect]

300. Wait a minute .. . why is this still here . . . this is now for the DUNGEON, right --- ????

Not legitimate subject for general discussion ---

[galileo3000]

302. he will have to pay for it.

[Bluenorthwest]

303. Dennis For President

People who have harshly and rightly condemned Pelosi and Reid for not getting out of Iraq and keeping Impeachment off the table who do not support Dennis for President, and instead support some Sentor who has voted to keep us in Iraq and never raised a voice of concern about the Bush administration's illegalities owe a deep apology to Pelosi and Reid and the Congress. I think Nancy knew all the whining was hot air, and as soon as Clinton and Obama were the leads, well, it was confirmed. The war and impeachment were never really meaningful issues to those who touted them, as shown by instant support for the do nothing Senators and lack of support for Kucinich. If Democrats voted like our rhetoric often implies, Dennis would be in first place and hearings would be under way. Nancy knows the Party, she's not Speaker for nothing. She knew the occupation and impeachment issues would be over looked when it mattered, so she did not bother. Same for Reid.
So those Clinton and Obama backers who spoke unkind words about these people really need to send telegrams of abject apology, and praise for the display of Political accumen in the face of attack. These telegrams should include the words ' you were right and I was wrong.'
Or you could start supporting Dennis.

[pjt7]

306. NH funny biz

I got the numbers from http://www.electiondefensealliance.org /

I spoke with one of their members for over an hour. He said the chances for those numbers are 1 in 600.

Democracy is not given to us anymore, we have to intelligently fight to get her back!

[Norrin Radd]

312. k+r

[awaysidetraveler]

320. Nice Post! Cool stuff! Glad to hear it!

Hey, thanks for posting this.

[stlsaxman]

324. Thank you Congressman Kucinich!

looking out for our best interests!

[ProudToBeLiberal]

326. Kucinich asks for NH recount, but he'll have to pay for it

Source: Boston Globe

Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich is calling for a recount of the New Hampshire primary, not because he believes it will show him the winner, but for the integrity of the process.

Kucinich received just 1.4 percent of the vote in Tuesday's primary that was won by Hillary Clinton.

The New Hampshire Secretary of State's office said Kucinich can have a recount but he will have to pay for it. Under state law if a candidate loses by less than 3 percent they can pay a flat $2,000 for the recount. If they lose by more than 3 percent they have to pay the entire cost.

Kucinich asked for a recount after hearing about reports that Barack Obama did better in places where votes were hand counted versus larger cities where votes are tabulated electronically. In truth, polling had suggested that Clinton was doing better in the larger cities prior to the vote.



Read more: http://www.boston.com/news/local/politics/primarysource/2008/01/kucinich_asked.html

---

Let's see if Kucinich will put his money where is mouth is.

[Bonobo]

327. I agree. You should only be able to have fair voting if you can pay for it!

[aggiesal]

328. This is cheap to find out, ...

once and for all, that the Diebold Vote Stealing machines are crap.

If it's money he needs, I'll donate.
Just tell me where to deposit my donation.

[Laurab]

330. You beat me to it by just a minute or so - but I agree

it's not that much money, and I'd be glad to donate, and I'm sure a lot of others would be, too.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

332. here's the link

https://services.myngp.com/ngponlineservices/contribution.aspx?X=aDlDFFT9TMGh0ghebdP6VkYKCfcT%2fFNw

hope this helps

[aggiesal]

333. Thanks, just donated $10. ...

And I placed in the Employer field: Please use for NH Recount !

[mirrera]

338. Thanks! Donated...n/t

[Laurab]

329. I hope he will - I'd be glad to help n/t

[dkofos]

331. He will get more of my money if it will bring the machines down!!

[Laurab]

334. Just emailed him telling him I would gladly donate

if he follows through - to save being Diebolded this election.

[Laurab]

335. K&R n/t

:kick:

[Spiffarino]

336. How much does he need?

I'll kick in something. This needs to be done, if for no other reason than to put the rumors to rest.

[slipslidingaway]

337. "...a $2,000 fee to START the process...Gardner is preparing an

estimate of the recount's cost, which the requesting candidates must pay before it will begin. He said he expects to start the recount Wednesday, and will announce further details once the payments have been received...

Under state law, if a candidate finished more than 3 percentage points behind the winner, the candidate must pay the cost of a recount. The cost is refunded if the recount finds the requester won or finished within 1 percentage point of the winner.


The last time New Hampshire did a statewide recount of the results of the presidential primary was in 1980..."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/01/11/politics/p135410S46.DTL&type=politics

[Hope And Change]

343. Hand Re-Count In New Hampshire

News Minute: Here is the latest New Hampshire news from The Associated Press


Associated Press - January 12, 2008 2:25 AM ET

CONCORD, N.H. (AP) - The state will conduct a hand re-count of Tuesday's Democratic and Republican presidential primaries at the request of Democrat Dennis Kucinich and Republican Albert Howard. The two have each paid $2,000 to get the process started.

CONCORD, N.H. (AP) - On Tuesday Hillary Rodham Clinton did better in New Hampshire precincts where primary ballots were counted by machine and Barack Obama did better where ballots were counted by hand. But experts say that doesn't mean there was any fraud or inaccuracy in the vote counts.

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=6507675&nav=menu183_5_2_6">Link