Britons 'richer than Americans'

[demobrit]

Source: BBC Business News

The average UK person will this year have a greater income than their US counterpart for the first time since the 19th Century, figures suggest.
Analyst Oxford Economics said the UK's GDP per head of population will reach £23,500 - £250 higher than in the US.

However, because goods and services are cheaper in the US, Americans will have stronger purchasing power, it added.

UK GDP per capita will also be higher than in Germany (£21,665) and France (£21,700), Oxford Economics calculated.



Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7174372.stm

---

This really surprised me when I read it.
The British economy has improved dramaticaly over the last 15 years.
Goods of course are more expensive in the UK especially Gasoline and Deisel which is over $7 a gallon(imperial).
We dont seem to hear anything from the US media about any economis downslope over there, (correct me if I am wrong)

[Finite]

1. You don't hear about a downturn..

But it's on the way. Just as America has been doing, we've been getting drunk on cheap credit and now the hangover's kicking in.

I was surprised to read this article as well.. I would imagine America's rich live better than those in the UK but the sheer number of people forced into poverty by the Bush administration has skewed the average.

[HughBeaumont]

2. Well, that's what happens . . .

. . . when you throw an asston of cash you don't have at a war you can't win, while the people of your own country take home less and less because the necessities that make up the cost of living are going up and up. Add a dying infrastructure as the moldy cherry on this shit sundae and is it any wonder why nearly every nation is outpacing us in personal growth?

We don't even seem to here anything about an economic downslope over here. The Failure Fuhrer, in his quest to never admit wrongdoing or bad news, thinks everything is slap-happy hunky-dory. Meanwhile, job creation has underperformed for the what, 20th straight month is it? It'd be interesting to see during this jobless "recovery" how many months we've achieved the birth/death rate in that stat. My take is very few since Der Fuhrer took the White House hostage in 2000.

[OKthatsIT]

52. It's always been that way..Remember the Queen & Rothshilds

Queen and her Banker owns ALL THE WORLDS WEALTH...like 300 TRILLION.

THEY OWN US.

[Robbien]

3. While some costs in the UK are higher

Medical/Drug care in the US eats up quite a bit of the US working class income.

And in the UK, support for the poorer population is much better than in the US.

So, on the whole I would say the Brits are much better off.

[izzie]

4. any one ever do a study on what part of out tax goes into

the medical field? I am willing to bet that Bush has dumped millions into 'faith based hospitals' beside just what the ear marks and town, city and state taxes goes to medical that is then bought back by us when we use them. Any type of study done on that stuff? I bet it really makes medical higher than these countries having a national health care system. I guess we have to have some place that all this money sticks to some CEO's fingers as we pay for the care. I bet that is a cost that helps on these figures with US vs Brits.

[dipsydoodle]

7. Banjos cost less in the USA

I don't really care about much else........lol.

Apart from that, with regard to health costs whatever, if as stated the average is £23000 / say $ 46000, then NHS contributions per employee are : employee's contibution $4000 and employer's an additional $4800. So - thats' the health cost to which you may compare.

Yes - I too have concluded that less advantaged here are better cared for by the state and to a certain extent that includes immigrants whether or not they may be legal.

[depakid]

8. Ask a Brit how much they pay for pharmaceuticals

better yet, tell them how much you'd pay.

It's a shocker, that one.

On the other hand, many other things are much more expensive in the UK.

Petrol, for instance:

Unleaded (average price): 103.6p

Diesel (average price): 108.6p

per liter

Do the math and that adds up to about $7.70 per gallon for unleaded.

[Robbien]

9. Aren't most of the cars in the UK more efficient in their use of gas?

A liter goes much farther there than here does it not? Plus public transportation is much better there so there are choices other than driving cars.

[demobrit]

12. What we Pay in UK

In the UK tax and National Insurance is payable as follows
In Pound Sterling

On annual earnings
Earnings between 0 and 5225 no income tax.
Between 5225 and 34600 taxed at 22%
above 34600 taxed at 40%

National Insurance is 11% (universal healthcare)

Mr average will pay tax and national insurance 33% of earnings.

Then take into account VAT value added tax, purchase tax on most goods,17.5% of purchase price.
Property Tax
Road Tax
Cigarette tax,tax on Beer wines and spirits,the Uk is very heavily taxed.
TV tax to the BBC

prescription price is 6.85 pounds per prescription.

[DBoon]

33. As a California resident..

your income tax rates are likely less than what we pay (taking into account state and local taxes)

VAT is high to me at 17.5%, but in many CA counties sales tax is 8% or higher

Your price for prescription drugs is a dream. My cheapest prescription is $25 for 30 days supply. It is very easy to spend hundreds of dollars on prescription drugs.

[Hayduke Lives]

13. But remember

That figure "$7.70" per gallon is a bit skewed by the current weakness of the dollar.

Some other things to keep in mind: Brits drive fewer miles on average than we do (public transit, urban planning, etc.). Also, Higher Education in the UK is basically free, while it costs us $20K to $40K per year even for "state" universities.

At the end of the day, I'd take the average UK salary & cost of living over the US average.

[demobrit]

15. University education in UK is not free anymore.

University education is no longer free here in the UK.
Higher education is free for students who do not wish or cannot afford to go to university, but wish to study at a Polytechnic college similar to a one or two year certificate course in the US.
There is of course help for poorer families from the state in the form of Scholarships for those children who are gifted.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

32. Students pay no fees until after course completion and after they are earning 15K per year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4749575.stm

[JawJaw]

14. How Much?

In Wales, we abolished prescription charges in April 2007!


Whenever anybody here moans about the NHS, I tell them to go and rent "Sicko"

[HannibalBarca]

17. How do your Pharmacists get paid?

I only ask because I am one!

[JawJaw]

18. Not entirely sure, but

I think the pharmacist fills in a prescription claim form & claims it back from the local health authority every month.

[pattmarty]

5. You don't hear anything in the media about ANYTHING GOOD in Europe.

Every day there is something that we fall further behind the industrialized countries of the world in. Education, income, health care, life span, most morons in this country still think we're #1 in everything. I'm looking forward to hearing about this tonight on Fox news.

[Hayduke Lives]

10. That is so true

I've always felt that our myopia here in the US is a huge part of the reason that our political system is so messed up. We've been conditioned to view Europe's successes as failures in every facet of policy - from health care, to education, and certainly with respect to economics.

They are going to crush the US economy in the long run. The EU invests in their infrastructure and their people, while here in the US, the foundations of our economy are rotting out. I think this article is skewed by the weakness of the US dollar. But regardless, in the long run, the EU has stronger fundamentals while our problems will only compound.

[raccoon]

24. Well, when you think about it, why would the MSM media (corporate media)

tell us good things about Europe? How well the health care system in Norway/France/UK, whatever, works? That wouldn't go over well with corporate America.

"most morons in this country still think we're #1 in everything" --I agree, most morans do. And I guess they'll keep thinking that until they lose their health insurance, or their adult children do.

[demobrit]

49. You don't hear anything in the media about ANYTHING GOOD in Europe

Don`t you get the BBC news over there on satelite?

[Demeter]

6. Maybe Because They Don't Get Paid in Dollars, Or Spend $300/month

on sub-standard health insurance....

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. Note that the 'purchasing power parity' rate would give a different answer

The OECD has reckoned in 2006 the PPP exchange rate would be 0.645 pounds to the dollar. Compare that with the current exchange rate of 0.506, and you see the pound is over-valued by about 27%. So the £23,500 should be about £18,500 - well below the £23,250 they reckon for US GDP per capita.

[Fedja]

16. Perspectives vary

You see... People mostly desire one thing, and that's sustainable security. Everything else is details that tack themselves under the above.

That aside, on to explain. I don't mean "security" in the bastardized way that the word has been used lately. I mean it in the sense that a person feels safe about his general future, although physical security isn't a bad thing to have either.

My country, being a tiny speck in the Mediterranean, is pretty far from the US or british GDP. We hardly have an army, and out millionares are only "well off" by US standards. Our gas costs almost 6 bucks per gallon, and the state takes about 30% off every paycheck I get. If my salary improves a bit, I'm looking at 40%. I lived in the US, and this was the type of information I was getting about Europe.

So before you turn all sympathetic and feel bad for me, here's what I'm getting in return.

I have received the best pre-college education one could wish for, and I know my children will get the same. If they wish, they can go to some of the best universities after highschool, and it'll be absolutely free. No strings attached, no loans. Free. If I need a bonemarrow transplant or a new kidney tomorrow, it'll be free. Dentist? Optometrist? Emergency care? Free. Basically, everything but a boobjob is free here, and if the boobjob is needed to restore an unfortunate amputee's self-confidence (breast cancer patients sometimes lose a breast to save the rest), then that's free also.

I have 23 days per year of minimum paid leave, along with about 10 more work-free holidays. My wife-to-be will get 6 months to 1 year of paid maternity leave, and one of us will get fully paid sick leave whenever our child falls ill and needs the extra attention.

My employment contract prevents my employer from booting me unless he can prove gross or repeated negligence on my part. He can opt to "send me away", but I'm automatically entitled to a severance fee which should bridge me over for about 4 months of jobhunting, after which time the State covers my former salary for a few more months if I'm unlucky and take part in the employment programs they have set up.

And it goes on and on... This is the stuff you're not told about europe if you live in the US.

All you hear is SOCIALISM, HUGE TAXES, EXPENSIVE GAS and so on, but why is that a bad thing? If your tax money isn't dropped on private wars, if you see it going to actual security, if you know that your children will -never- be denied medical care, a university education, or suitable protection of their workplace... What could be more important than that?

Is that not the essence of enjoying life? Knowing that you have no life-threatening issues to worry about, and although you have a bit less disposable income to throw around, when you do spend what you have, you can do it without a care in the world.



If this seemed as a rant I apologize, but it's been pent up for a while. Looking back at my friends in the US, I feel so bad for them. Being kept hostage by their own system, always worried about losing everything to some event they couldn't prevent.. That's torture too.

[sinkingfeeling]

20. What is the name of your 'tiny speck in the Mediterranean'?

[Fedja]

21. happens to be

Slovenia. I'm pretty sure the majority of the region has similar ideals, with variable sucess on reaching them. Scandinavia trumps us on social issues, but way too cold for my taste up there. :)

[Book Lover]

53. How ironic

My father left what is now Croatia in the late 40's in order to provide for his family... now I'm looking at going back!

[Robbien]

25. Exactly what many here at DU have been saying

And you said it very well.

Our elite and our media of course denigrate such ideas and put those of us down as socialists and peaceniks. Yes, we are indeed being kept hostage by our system.

Welcome to DU Fedja

:hi:

[dysfunctional press]

26. the funny thing about defense/security...

the u.s. is one of the most geographically secure countries in the world, in that we have almost ZERO to worry about, as far as an actual invasion by hostile forces is concerned. europe on the other hand has been there, done that for as long as they've been around, and will always have overland connections to it's main 'enemies', and as such the threat of an invasion is always going to be there.

and yet, we spend more on defense every year than the rest of the world combined.

it's beyond insane.

[redqueen]

27. If it's a rant...

then it's a rant that many more U.S. citizens would benefit by hearing much more often.

Thanks for posting it. :hi:

[Skittles]

37. I hear you, Fedja

as an American I am astounded by the misconceptions my countryfolk have of the rest of the world - I lived in England off and on while growing up and tend to know better :hi:

[daleo]

38. Great post. n/t

[MadHound]

19. In some ways I don't doubt that is true

But the British pay much more on some things than Americans do. Land and homes are two big examples. Most of my British friends are resigned to the fact that they're not going to own their own house, much less any land with it. They are both envious and astonished that I purchased twenty acres of farmland, with house and outbuildings, for less than $150,000.

But in other things, such as health care, etc., Britain is much further ahead of the game, and would be even further now if Thatcher hadn't gone on a tear.

[demobrit]

50. In some ways I don't doubt that is true

Which state was this,my wife comes from Long Island and property prices are so expensive there.

[The2ndWheel]

22. The EU, when fully implemented, will be an interesting contrast

The US population is huge compared to any single European country. However, a united Europe would top our 300 million by quite a bit. How they would govern that many people will be, like I said, interesting. China governs 1 billion people one way. India governs 1 billion people another way. We do it our way. Europe(and not each smaller state within it) will find their own way, with all the various positives and negatives thrown into the mix. Some individual European countries have their fair share of issues with immigration, aging populations, and what has been more or less a similar culture to each individual state. We'll see how they end up integrating all those aspects into a unified Europe.

[Fedja]

23. The EU is implemented as is.

There will not be major steps in further unification. The countries recognize that there is no way to govern the countries as one. They set unified standards in order to transcend cultural and state barriers and bolster trade, transfer of people and goods, but the countries are not considering unification. They're proud of their heritage, their individual cultures, legacy, traditions, and so on. To unite the EU fully into a conglomerate similar to the US would be to destroy the very essence of Europe.

[The2ndWheel]

28. So the natural tendency of centralized states to further centralize will stop?

"They set unified standards in order to transcend cultural and state barriers and bolster trade, transfer of people and goods"

Why would that not continue? How can you go that far, and then stop? Maybe you can for a while, but doesn't the transcending of barriers to bolster and movement of commodities require further conglomeration?

I'm not saying it's going to happen tomorrow. It could be another generation or two. But when you look around the world, is there any "there" anymore anywhere? The world is a conglomeration. Everything is increasingly the same(not completely, but more and more each day), because we're transcending those barriers to the free flow of the various cogs in the world.

Obviously I'm looking at the EU from a conglomerated point of view in the US. Does the EU want to be a counter-balance to American power? Chinese power? Russian power? If it does, I don't see any way to do that other than to fully unify. Even if the EU doesn't want to have more influence in the world, just the transcending of barriers would cause the individual cultures, heritages, etc, of Europe to become more of a monoculture. I don't know that people get to pick the good parts, and throw all the bad parts away. If you want those barriers to disappear, you have to have a loss of something.

Again, not tomorrow, or next week, or 5 years from now, but slowly over time.

[Fedja]

29. Because Europe runs on a history..

...that transcends the american historical perception. The English and the French will -never- share a country. The same goes for most of the other states and some neighbor of theirs. This becomes particularly true in the case of the balkans. While Europe is civilised enough to keep their differences in check in favor of economics and development, there's centuries of (sometimes violent) history that aren't going away any time soon.

If children in the Balkan states can recite 500-year old grudges between their ancestors and can spot nuances in facial contours and accents to place the heritage of people they meet a few generations back, they're not going to share one government during the course of this generation. Or the next one, or the one after that. Only in a science-fiction scenario of flying cars and the dismantling off the "nationality" concept could such a thing become possible.

Slovenia, for example, is a country of 2 million, which has its own language. It has fought for a thousand years to keep the language alive, under germanic, turkish, and yugoslav rule. Never until 1991 has it been independent, and yet it has fought bitterly throughout history and has kept a very distinct national identity. States like that don't simply merge into a melting pot of nations and dilute into a faceless "union".

Straying off course though, the point I should have been making is that the differences of European countries is what makes the EU strong. The freedom to set your own direction and destiny independent of our neighbors, to keep alive your traditions and culture, while maintaining some level of economic unity, that's what makes the EU shine.

[demobrit]

30. Because Europe runs on a History

I generally agree with you here Fedja and welcome to DU.
I think the dream of a United states of europe is gone but the concept of an economic union in todays world has helped each state to grow GDP wise in the last 10 years.
I am convinced that this trend will continue.
There is a move to unite the Latin american states in some way economically and I am aware that some of the middle eastern gulf states are doing the same.

[Donnachaidh]

31. all those plastic crappy gadgets are so much cheaper

And we can build new mountains with the NON-biodegradeable CRAP people buy here. :woohoo: :woohoo:

Yeah -- we gots to have our cell phones and our iphones. Because we're gluttons for garbage. :rofl:

[DBoon]

34. Paul Krugman call that the "tchotcke economy"

We can buy cheap MP3 players, DVD players, games, etc. but the things that really contribute to a god standard of living - medical care, education, housing - are becoming less and less affordable.

But hey, we can't be poor if we have DVD players.

[MilesColtrane]

35. It's probably all that money saved on dental work.

I kid, my British friends.

I kid because I love.

[demobrit]

36. Heard nothing at all on Fox news about this News Story here as of today

[conspirator]

39. Richer maybe. But the purpose of life is happiness not money nt

[demobrit]

40. Richer maybe. But the purpose of life is happiness not money nt

Yes I do agree with you on that point.
I do however believe that the culture of the economies of the West push a dog eat dog culture,keeping up with the Jones`s culture which drives people to overstretch themselves and adds to the acummilating debt of those nations.

[Fedja]

47. Money is one of the factors

of happiness. I'm the first to admit that being hungry and cold pretty much prevents one from being happy.

However, I do agree that whenever people compare countries in economic terms, that says little to nothing about them being a good (or bad) place to live.

Each person has his own definition of enjoying life and what brings him that level of comfort. Some of the typical factors are disposable income, social security, health security, professional growth potential (job market), intellectual growth potential (education system), cultural growth potential, and the sustainability of these for the foreseeable future.

The global champions of capitalism have sacrificed many of these in favor of disposable income. They spend enormous amounts of time and energy indoctrinating and convincing their populations that being able to buy more "stuff" means that one leads a happy life. When reality pokes its ugly head from behind the corner, one sees that this has led the people into gigantic debts, since they take on more and more loans, selling off their future in return for happyness off the retail shelf.

This, in turn, makes them focus even more on the monetary factor of happyness. The MOST important thing is that they'll make more money, so that they can pay off debts for things they've already consumed. The huge televisions, DVD players, the cars... Health insurance, education, culture, personal growth and other factors seem trivial because they're more abstract concepts.

So who cares if the average Scandinavian considers you an ignoramus that can't see further than his nose (and often justly so), your SUV is bigger than his puny city car. So who cares if some country has a healthcare system in which you never have to worry about being able to afford survival, they're socialists and the state takes half their paychecks. So who cares if the working class in some other countries enjoys and takes time for theater, concerts, and opera. You don't like that crap anyway, you've seen it in a movie and it sucked. So who cares about some puny countries saying that war is always wrong, if you don't show strength nobody will respect you. What was it that was bombed last week? Finland? Iran? Is Finland even a country? Doesn't even matter, they probably deserved it and you really need to think less about crap like that and find a second job to pay off that car or the bank's coming to take it away.

The more everyone focuses on GDP, money, income and similar as measures of happyness, the more we all buy into the dismantling of our world. We work all our lives trying to earn enough to be truly happy, and we don't even know what "happy" is anymore. And every day we assume that some nation is better and more happy than we are because they can afford bigger cars, we've pissed away another day and taken out another loan.

Eventually, we're very old and if we're lucky, see the world for what it is. We find happyness within. And we realise, that happyness today and tomorrow doesn't affect our past. The days lost are gone, stuck in the unhappy and frustrated past. The things we bought are long lost, and we're too tired to spend what money we've gathered. And even though we now know where happyness is, we're too late to enjoy it, burdened by the guilt of naive decades squandered.

Bottom line, the British and American GDPs can bite me. "Riches" can bite me too. I demand happyness instead.

[demobrit]

56. Money is one of the factors

Cannot disagree with you

[BooScout]

41. A response from someone who has lived in both places.....

I'm an American living in Wales (For the uninformed Wales is the country west of England and south of Scotland).

Having lived in both the States and the UK, my opinion is that expenses work out almost the same overall. Some things are more expensive here than in the States and somethings aren't. Yes petrol (aka gas) is more expensive here but we drive less, walk more and take trains and buses more. Our cars are also much more fuel efficient.

Health care is not free as so many in the States seem to think. We pay for it through our National Insurance contributions and other taxes. The best thing about Socialized medicine is it is ALWAYS there when you need it. If you are out of work you don't have to worry about COBRA or not having Health Insurance. I cannot tell you how much that peace of mind gives me.

Natural gas prices are much cheaper here in the UK than they were for me living in the States (in georgia where natural gas is deregulated). In the winter in Atlanta we would get gas bills as high as $400 a month for a two bedroom 1100 square foot house. Here in the UK the last gas bill we paid was for 6 months at £229 which is roughly $460 US dollars. That last bill included the months of Sept, Oct, Nov and Dec where we kept it nice and cozy in our approximate 1300 square foot house.

Still, all in all, the cost of living in the UK pretty much works out about what it did for us in the States.

[Xenotime]

42. The UK will be leading the world in a few years

[GeniusLib]

54. Thanks for the laugh

Not a chance

[demobrit]

55. The sleeping Giant

China will outstrip us all in 25 years

[GeniusLib]

57. Exactly, them and India

Europe and the U.S. will be left behind

[DuaneBidoux]

43. I believe that MOST European families are far more comfortable than American families.

There are many reasons for this. Health care takes a much smaller bite out of household budgets. VAT is a regressive tax that depresses consumption and causes Europeans to be much more careful with purchases such as clothing or electronics.

Most drive cheaper cars than they can afford and live in smaller houses than they can afford. Europeans eat out on very special occasions, and this habit of Americans of popping off to the local steakhouse is unknown.

I married into a French family and have been absolutely astounded to find out that my brother in law saves roughly 25% of his gross income (I know it sounds incredible!).

There is also another thing which I think makes a HUGE difference. European families, even middle class, tend to accumulate money and hand it down, and frequently the next generation does the same, so that eventually even average families start to make money on money.

And they pass down big household items like armoires (We have two armoires from my wife's grandmother). That's a lot of furniture we didn't have to buy--and I'll tell you that there is virtually nowhere an armoire like my wife's could be purchased in the US anymore.

I think there are other factors but the bottom line is that European families are tremendously more conservative with money and family values (even as half of them are socialist!).

[superconnected]

44. I hope the republicans are happy. Thanks Bush. Oh and you too Pelosi, his little helper.

Somehow if we could stop the war, cap credit card rates (again as they were removed by the republicans in the 80's), and start taxing like heck imports made with foreign labor, we may do better, again.

[SunDrop23]

45. Wife and I are debating a move to the UK....thanks for the article (n/t)

[Xithras]

46. There IS an economic problem in Britain at the moment.

A lot of which was caused by British companies investing in American funds, and reduced exports to America. Their stock markets are down, retail sales are down, and people are losing their jobs. European companies are taking tens of billions in losses thanks to their investments in the American subprime market. Even worse, British and European banking concerns decided to emulate our subprime market and had their own subprime real estate boom, which is also now imploding. There's lots of recession talk on the other side of the Atlantic, and everyone from the IMF to global economy watchdogs have said that Europe is almost guranteed to follow the U.S. into recession if our economic growth stays down for any appreciable amount of time. While the pound and euro's are up against the dollar, they are having their own serious issues at the moment.

You don't hear about this because the American press only comments on world news when it directly impacts America, or if there is emotion-tugging footage to run across the screen. American media is uninterested in foreign economic stories.

[demobrit]

48. There IS an economic problem in Britain at the moment

What I believe is a big difference between say UK and US is regards to personal savings.
Banks and Building Societies tend to me more generous than US banks on the interest that they pay their investors.
Americans are encouraged to invest in stocks and shares and this is not so popular over here with the middle and working classes.

[catzies]

51. Flashback to seeing "Sicko" last summer, & their postwar rebuilding

I know it's an oversimplification but it seems to me that investing in your own infrastructure and society pays off even if it's 50 years later.

Which makes our shortsighted, next-quarter-will-beat-this-quarter mentality even more stupid.

We could have been where the Brits are now.