Attorney Wants Criminal Charges Against Insurer ... (Nataline Sarkisyan )

[RedEarth]

Source: abc

The lawyer for California teen Nataline Sarkisyan charged today that the only reason Cigna Health Care officials changed their minds and approved a liver transplant for the desperate girl was they knew it was too late and they wouldn't have to pay for it.

Sarkisyan, 17, died Thursday just hours after Cigna reversed its decision and approved the procedure it had previously described as "too experimental…and unproven." Now the Sarkisyan family hopes manslaughter or murder charges will be pressed.

Their lawyer, Mark Geragos, says he will refer the case to prosecutors for possible criminal charges against the insurer, Cigna HealthCare.


"All of the doctors there unanimously agreed that she needed and should have that liver transplant. And the only entity, if you will, who said no to that in the middle of that medical decision, was some piece of garbage who decided that making a couple of dollars, or saving them a couple of dollars, was worth more than the 65% chance over six months that she would survive," said Geragos.

"The only reason they approved it is because we had organized a protest in front of Cigna's corporate headquarters… and in the face of public pressure, they did it," he said.



Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4043101&page=1

[fascisthunter]

1. No More Profit=less Death

get the private sector OUT of healthcare and war!

[harmonicon]

45. yeah, but we need to WIN

nothing's more important than winning, so don't vote for the person who would do the things that would make winning mean anything.... excuse me while I go barf again.

[fascisthunter]

51. Sorry but, I Have no Idea What You are Trying to Say (nt)

[harmonicon]

59. my point is that you are right

we need to get the private sector out of healthcare, yet people act like it's no big deal.... they pay it lip-service then vote for politicians who even say they're against single-payer healthcare.

[fascisthunter]

60. Sorry, I Didn't Understand....

and Thank You

[harmonicon]

61. no worries - it (almost) always makes sense in my head.... but sometimes only in my head

[annabanana]

2. ab -so- fuckin'- lute- ly

They should be hung out to dry with a huge fine and 24/7 coverage. The name Cigna should become an anathema.

[WileEcoyote]

27. Charges ought to be filed against every GOP leader

since Nixon. And complicity for any Democrats who stood in the way of universal health coverage.

jail time for all.

Not likely but the only reasonable indictment.

[annabanana]

46. lol - I like the way you think. . . . . n/t

[Lorien]

3. I hope they win

I doubt if Cigna will be held responsible (this is Amerika, after all) but I do hope that by some miracle of justice the family and Geragos prevail.

[dipsydoodle]

4. I don't really understand

how a liver transplant is classified as being experimental. It's good to see that her parents are going for their throats rather than thier money which won't bring her back.

Whole issue is just so sad.

[LisaL]

19. She had leukemia.

"The case raised the question among at least one medical expert over whether a liver transplant is a viable option for a leukemia patient because of the immune-system-suppressing medication such patients must take to prevent organ rejection.

Such medication, while preserving the transplanted liver, could make the cancer worse.

Transplantation is not an option for leukemia patients because the immunosuppressant drugs "tend to increase the risk and growth of any tumors," said Dr. Stuart Knechtle, who heads the liver transplant program at the University of Wisconsin at Madison and was not commenting specifically on Nataline's case.

The procedure "would be futile," he said."


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hFp8DsNC_gJwb9q72kNfDiZCioSwD8TM750O2

[TommyO]

25. What part of this did you miss?

Despite her already fragile health, Geragos says, "all of the doctors at the University of California Medical Center unanimously agreed that she needed and should have that liver transplant."

[LisaL]

30. The question was asked as to how liver transplant could be

considered an experimental procedure.
The girl had leukemia. Apparently at least this one expert considers transplanting liver into someone with leukemia "futile."

[Occulus]

37. Perhaps they're just uninformed

Given they're on my ignore list, I'm inclined to think it's one of the Usual Suspects. Anyone saying she was too sick either doesn't know or conveniently forgot that there was a liver available for her something like TWO WEEKS prior to her death, at a point when her doctors felt she was healthy enough for the surgery- as you pointed out.

I *can* believe there are some people here contesting the completely legitimate outrage over this girl's death. These people are either being paid, or are trolls.

Or both.

[satya]

5. If corporations want to be "persons", then they should expect to be charged with murder. nt

[dipsydoodle]

6. Some stuff here on how its treated

here in the UK : http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section5/chapter_b.html

[cstanleytech]

13. Yup and the CEOs and others at fault

would go to jail but sadly this is not a perfect world and I dont foresee an attempt by any prosecutor in this case at seeking a murder or manslaughter conviction working in the end.
Civil court they might win though but I really doubt in criminal.

[iamjoy]

28. It Won't Be The CEO

It won't be the CEO going to jail. Cigna is a big corporation. They will shift the blame to some paper pusher -they will fire the claims adjuster for doing his/her job. Admittedly, the claims adjuster sold his/her soul to the devil in doing the company's bidding - now this person will be a patsy. Expect Cigna to deny it was ever their policy to deny such things and the employee was wrong. Expect any documentation to the contrary to have mysteriously disappeared. Maybe the claims adjuster managed to keep personal records away from the office (although such actions are generally forbidden in corporate culture) and will stick it back to Cigna.

I just don't see the right people getting punished for this. It so rarely happens.

Of course, I'm such a cynic. Maybe I'm wrong.

[quiet.american]

55. Well. said. nt

[woundedkarma]

7. I hope they win... but I doubt they will.

These people should not have lost their daughter. Then, nobody should ever have to. In this case, a cruel system that's gone on for too long in America is at least partly responsible for the death.

I'd love to see this be the case that killed privatized health care.

However, I imagine cigna has deep pockets for plenty of lawyers. I'm willing to bet the family has nothing or else they'd have paid for the transplant themselves. It's all a matter I would guess of who their lawyer is, whether a big group gets behind them and whether they're willing to stick to their guns.

Oh... and a really large amount of pure luck.

I wish them the best though. A win for them will be a win for the entire country.

[POAS]

8. Not taking Cigna's side but

couldn't the hospital and doctors have said the hell with Cigna, we'll do the transplant and fight over the money later?

[Alexander]

10. They could have, but the money has to come from somewhere.

The family would have been charged.

Since organ transplants are expensive, I doubt they could have afforded it.

[pitohui]

12. no because hospitals and doctors are just in it for the profit too

the first thing my doctor/hospital asks is to photocopy my insurance card before they even give a $35 check-up

you're dreaming to think they'll give six figure transplants for free and "fight over the money later"

the whole system needs an overhaul, not just CIGNA

went without insurance for 15 years, if you don't have insurance, you don't get treatment, ERs are only required to stabilize you and kick you out the door, doctors aren't required to see you at all

a transplant is not actually emergency surgery

[shireen]

14. don't blame the doctors, there are legal issues too ...

the hospital may be in for the profit, but I don't think any medical practitioner would have walked away from her. If the doctors and nurses had done the procedure, they could have lost their jobs (they already have to deal with ridiculously high medical insurance liability premiums). So I'm totally sympathetic towards the medical staff, they did everything in their power to help her. I don't know what the hospital could have done. If they had made an exception for her and done the procedure they would have opened the floodgates for many others needing similar treatment, which is totally unsustainable under their current system. This young lady is not the first person to be murdered by an insurance company. It happens routinely, especially with the uninsured. Her case got a lot of publicity (and I'm glad her parents, friends, and her nurses were such aggressive advocates), but there are many other people who have died, anonymous, because they never got medical treatment in time.

The prime villain in this tragedy is CIGNA, and we need to stay focused on them and the health insurance companies.

[unapatriciated]

29. I have to disagree some doctors care only about their wallet

I know of one personally. I believe he is responsible for my son being disabled. In early 1990 I took my son to my HMO for rashes and complaints of muscle aches. Over the summer he saw two doctors repeatedly. The first doctor thought it was allergy and treated him with cortisone cream. Over the summer his muscle aches turned into weakness. I asked both doctors on two different occasions to do a simple blood test for lupus and was told to wait. I had an aunt and sister with this disease and recognized the symptoms. They said I was overreacting and continued treating as a skin allergy. In late summer he was referred to the head of pediatrics of the clinic. His rashes on his face and joints where getting worse and he was unable to walk a block to school without resting. I again voiced my concerns about lupus and asked for a blood test. I still remember his words to me "Now mother quit playing detective and let me be the doctor". He stated this while patting my hand. He continued treating for skin allergy's. My son slowly became weaker and by Christmas he started losing his balance and was having difficulty getting up without help. After a lot of tears and yelling my son got the blood test, I had first requested in May. We had to wait a week for the results(the holidays slow everything down). It was positive for muscle enzymes in the blood. My son was finally referred to Childrens Hospital in January of 1991. A muscle biopsy diagnosed him with Dermatomyositis. The symptoms are similar to Lupus and they are both autoimmune disorders. On the third day at Childrens my HMO doctor tried to send my son home. He told my family he would be better off in his mother's care. My son was so weak he could not stand, walk or even swallow food. I learned the hard way how hmo's work. The Insurance Company would cover the hospital stay but the clinic was responsible for physician charges. So this doctor only cared about his wallet and not my son. I fought to change my HMO clinic and won (the insurance company told me I had to wait until open enrollment). The next ten years my son battled his illness and I battled my Insurance Company. Bottom line if his illness had been treated earlier he may not have had to endure so much pain and lost so much muscle .

[POAS]

43. The doctors and hospital

must accept some of the responsibility. It wasn't ethics that stopped them from cutting, it was the fact that the cash wasn't coming from the insurance company. No cash, you die!

That does not absolve Cigna but the part Cigna played should not excuse or absolve the hospital and doctors either.

[shireen]

52. i'm very sorry to hear about your son's ordeal

The HMO and the doctors you had to deal with should be charged with negligence, and thrown in jail! That is absolutely outrageous.

I guess we have good and bad people in the medical profession, just like any other cross-section of society. I've had a serious illness since 2003, and many of the doctors I've dealt with (and ALL the ones I see regularly) have been wonderful. I do a lot of my own research, and they've been respectful about my opinions, always requested additional tests when I've asked for it. I have a fantastic relationship with my primary care doctor; she sometimes teases me about my self-diagnosis opinions, but always takes my comments seriously. I'm one of the lucky ones; I've had good supportive doctors, and wish more people have had access to the excellent treatment I've received in these past few years.

Unapatriciated, how is your son doing now?

[unapatriciated]

54. all but one hmo doctor and surgeon were great

He is 29 on disability but is finally strong enough physically and emotionally to move forward with his life. Even tho he has the stamina and body of an elderly person, last year he enrolled in The Art Institute of San Francisco and is doing well. He knows it might take him eight years to get a four year degree but he now feels useful and is happy. He also has the love and support of a wonderful woman. This is all a mother could ask for. Thanks for asking.

[shireen]

56. he sounds like a courageous and hopeful young man

Getting through that kind of experience, especially at such a young age, is extremely difficult. He is a fighter, determined to create a wonderful life for himself and his family. You were the person who instilled that spirit in him ... you did good, mom. Really really good. :hug:

[NashVegas]

15. I Think The Hospital Should've Paid For It

Her liver and kidneys were shot to hell because of a lung infection she got at the hospital. It was described as a "complication" of her bone marrow transplant.

[Alexander]

9. My parents were both insurance execs, and know the horrors of the industry.

Insurance is just plain evil, especially health insurance. My parents had it bad enough in the life insurance industry.

My mom worked for CIGNA for years, but thankfully only for the life insurance department.

Then again, insurance companies employ a lot of people in the Hartford area, where I'm from. I suppose they need work, which is why I'm in favor of nationalizing the insurance industry.

[pitohui]

11. i don't doubt it for a minute

in fact that's what i said to my husband the minute i heard the news

The lawyer for California teen Nataline Sarkisyan charged today that the only reason Cigna Health Care officials changed their minds and approved a liver transplant for the desperate girl was they knew it was too late and they wouldn't have to pay for it.

[Trillo]

16. How do you "jail" a corporation?

Presuming first that the corporation is charged criminally, then secondly, convicted, how does a "paper entity" get locked up in jail, with all the attendant emotional time to "think and reflect" on one's past crime (the fate prescribed for humans convicted of serious crimes)?

K&R.

[seriousstan]

17. You beat me to it.

[drm604]

20. Can you fine them to the point of putting them out of business?

Maybe the family could sue them in civil court and ask for a few hundred million to be awarded to organizations that are fighting for universal single payer health care. They could also ask for a court order that CIGNA immediately and permanently cease all activities and support aimed at fighting universal single payer care.

Do any of you lawyers know if that's possible? It'd be a hell of a precedent and it would put the insurance industry on notice.

[Trillo]

26. In attempting to anwer that question to myself

A corporate plea agreement should also contain certain provisions that recognize the nature of the corporate "person" and ensure that the principles of punishment, deterrence, and rehabilitation are met. In the corporate context, punishment and deterrence are generally accomplished by substantial fines, mandatory restitution, and institution of appropriate compliance measures, including, if necessary, continued judicial oversight or the use of special masters. See U.S.S.G. §§ 8B1.1, 8C2.1, et seq. In addition, where the corporation is a government contractor, permanent or temporary debarment may be appropriate. Where the corporation was engaged in government contracting fraud, a prosecutor may not negotiate away an agency's right to debar or to list the corporate defendant.

http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/fraud/docs/reports/1999/chargingcorps.html

Since a corporations' entire purpose is accumulating money, punishing them on the basis of money seems like little more than a tax. For example, if a cotton farmer was convicted of murder, they'd probably be ecstatic to find that punishment and restitution only took away "X percentage" of their next few years cotton crops.

But the terms of "special masters" could be useful. For the cotton farmer, if he or she was told that part of their punishment was that they were only allowed to farm 1% of their land and they were supervised to strict enforcement of that, then perhaps it begins to take away his or her livelihood.

Perhaps that concept could be construed, in the case of a health insurance corporation hypothetically convicted of withholding lifesaving medical treatment, to include such things as disallowing cross ownership in any other corporations whatsoever, disallow any future political contributions and or lobbying without bound (perhaps a more extreme version of yours, where they're only prohibited for a short time in lobbying against single-payer insurance)

[drm604]

32. I like the special master idea.

Maybe as part of their punishment and restitution they could be ordered to provide coverage (with prices and benefits defined by the special master) to people who are currently unable to obtain coverage.

A settlement like this, or even an attempt at such a settlement, should put the fear of God into the insurance industry. Imagine if health insurance became so litigiously dangerous that the insurance companies all decided that their resources would be better spent administering other kinds of insurance and because of this they decide that it would be better if the government took over the responsibility for their current policy commitments.

[Trillo]

34. It occurred to look up what the term "special master" means

It seems it's roughly equivalent to a probation officer.

48.
Section 3601 of Title 18 of the United States Code requires that “ person who has
been sentenced to probation . . . shall . . . be supervised by a probation officer to the degree
warranted by the conditions specified by the sentencing court.” (1994). Federal Rule of Civil
Procedure 53 permits appointment of special masters by courts to assist judges in certain
circumstances. See La Buy v. Howes Leather Co., 352 U.S. 249, 256 (1957) (“The use of masters
is to aid judges in the performance of specific judicial duties, as they may arise in the progress
of a cause.” (citation and internal quotations omitted)). According to Rule 53, special masters
can “include[] a referee, an auditor, an examiner, and an assessor.” F
ED
. R. C
IV
. P. 53. As a
result, special masters may be appointed as de facto probation officers in order to supervise
organizations on probation. Indeed, the organizational guidelines recommend that a court
require an organization on probation to report periodically to the court, the probation officer,
“or any expert engaged by the court,” so that the court may gauge the status of the
organization’s efforts to comply with the law and the terms of probation. U.S.S.G. §
8D1.4(b)(2), (c)(4).
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:jWZTQANCmuQJ:www.ussc.gov/corp/Murphy1.pdf+site:.ussc.gov+special-master&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

In any case, the term appears to have some sort of temporary meaning. Since so much of USSG for corporations is centered around "fines" and money, corporations' specialty, perhaps something more permanent is needed for any corporation convicted of some serious criminal offense (since they can't be jailed in the human sense).

[Occulus]

40. Does not a corporate death penalty recognize them as persons in a most sublime way?

Oh, wait- we don't HAVE a "corporate death penalty". Oh, we can fine them and regulate to a fare-thee-well, but we have no "you are now dissolved as a corporation in all locations within US borders" corporate death penalty.

Perhaps we should. If we're going to allow them to claim any sort of personhood, we must be able to subject them to this as well.

I prefer the fast and dirty options, myself, but only at first, and only enough to truly get their attention. Execution of a few corporate persons would get people's attention pretty damn quick.

[Mythsaje]

41. Bingo!

I'm ALL for this idea.

[davidinalameda]

35. they'd file bankruptcy first

it take years for the courts to sort this out

in the meantime, the powers that be would have jumped ship leaving the employees to face the music

[Occulus]

39. So you write a law barring them from doing so

And then write into the law the requirement that they are liable for any and all interest accrued regarding payments to creditors.

In other words, you kill them, painfully, publicly, and very very dramatically.

[davidinalameda]

42. wishful thinking

I would have serious doubts that any attempt to do would ever pass Congress

every corporation would fight it

[Occulus]

38. You forbid them from operations for XYZ time period.

Easy answer. You lock their doors until the clock runs out.

Of course, you could also exercise the eminent domain option, since closing their doors and seizing their assets is most definitely in the interest of the general public- especially after this.

[Warren Stupidity]

49. You go after the officers of the corporation.

If in fact there was a criminal conspiracy to commit felonies, RICO would apply.

[Cerridwen]

53. Pull their corporate charter and/or their business license.

Put them in servitorship until they've proven their worthiness to contribute to the common good and can again become productive and contributing members of society.

[geomon666]

18. "some piece of garbage"

That's right. That's exactly what it was. Some piece of filth in a suit that decided this girl should die for his bottom line.

[humbled_opinion]

21. Duh Sue The Happy Horseshit out of em...

[sk8rrobert2]

22. anyone read "The Rainmaker" by John Grisham

I've said it before and I'll really think deeply about saying it again. this is earily similar all we need now is the letter calling the family "stupid stupid stupid." I really hope that Cigna has to pay for this.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

23. We Have the Best Healthcare System in the World!

And if you don't believe me, just ask Bill O'Reilly...

[ScooterFibby]

24. This wouldn't happen with Single Payer Universal Health Care

We need to move forward on this.

[unapatriciated]

31. When it comes to health care the Insurance Industry

cares only about profit not our health.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. Well it could happen but there is a huge difference.

If our healthcare system was under public control and did something like this, we could change that at the ballot box. How exactly to we vote Cigna out?

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

33. Let the CEOs enjoy their corporate bonuses in a maximum security lock-up

for say a 10 to 20 year stretch. Actually, forcing abject poverty on these murdering corporate parasitcs with no health insurance of their own and no means of support would also be a good punishment in my opinion.

[drm604]

36. Like I said in another thread,

maybe we should repackage Universal single payer health care as "Nataline's Law".
Maybe CIGNA shouldn't be allowed to have offices within 2 blocks of a school or church. :evilgrin:

[Vinca]

44. Hey - if the clerk at the insurance company says no, she means no.nt

[greiner3]

47. Now cigna will donate;

Half of their savings over this fiasco to all the republican candidates, hilary and obama so that this 'unfortunate' happenstance will go away.

[Warren Stupidity]

48. Murder works for me. K&R

This case clears up any misunderstandings about what our current system is, how it works, and for whose benefit it operates.

[knight_of_the_star]

57. Excellent!

If this sticks this gives the victims of the insurance companies one hell of a stick to beat them with.

[HuffleClaw]

58. yeah, good luck with that

they don't make decisions like that without being able to cover their ass.