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benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:13 PM
Original message
Girl dies while awaiting liver transplant
Edited on Thu Dec-20-07 10:15 PM by benny05
Source: ABC News

WESTWOOD -- A Northridge teenager awaiting a liver transplant died Thursday after she was pulled off of life support.

CIGNA Insurance Company initially refused to cover the cost of the transplant for Natalee Sarkisian, saying the surgery was too experimental.

On Thursday, friends, family and members of a nurses association held a protest outside CIGNA headquarters in Glendale, urging the insurance company to reconsider.

But the decision came too late for Natalee. Just after six o'clock tonight, her condition worsened.

Natalee's family took her off life support and she passed away.



Read more: http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local&id...



So, despite the fact that Cigma was swayed by the protesters both on the property and on the Internet, Natalee died.

SiCKO Nightmare.

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. to hell with them. ki&r
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. CIGNA, another one of the stars of SiCKO....for all the wrong reasons.
:argh:
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benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I'm with you
Pissed and sad at the same time.

I'm so sick and tired of Rethugs who think our current health care programs are fine.
:mad:
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Progressive Radical Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
82. It's not only "Rethugs."
We need to depart from that kind of thinking. Prominent democrats do not want universal non-profit healthcare.

This was a system failing this girl - a system both Democrats and Republicans have propped up and supported.

This kind of tragedy doesn't make the news yet Jamie-Lynn Spears is having a baby. That makes news. And even with that deficit in information, the majority of Americans want universal healthcare - but the elitists on both fronts aren't having any of it.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #82
139. Welcome to DU, Progressive Radical
Edited on Fri Dec-21-07 08:05 PM by davekriss
I remember from an Amy Goodman (Democracy Now!) documentary, a NYC FOX News program manager said, with a sickening grin on his face, "hey, if we don't report it, did it really happen?"

The fetishism of the commodity the domination of society by "intangible as well as tangible things" attains its ultimate fulfillment in the spectacle, where the real world is replaced by a selection of images which are projected above it, yet which at the same time succeed in making themselves regarded as the epitome of reality.
-- Guy Debord, Society of the Spectacle


Of course, who gets to choose the "selection of images" is a very political decision, one just worsened for the American public by the FCC.
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Progressive Radical Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #139
159. Thank you for the welcome.
Great quote.

I just saw SiCKO ... I thought I was well versed on the healthcare sham in this country. Whoa, have even mine eyes have been opened. (jaw-to-floor)

A quote from the movie rings so true from a French citizen. She says (paraphrasing) that over there, the government is afriad of the people. Here, the people are afraid of the government. As one of the British MPs points out, we Americans are so demoralized and indebted that we dare not speak out.

We are a society of slaves basically. We have the cosmetic appearance of "freedom," but what does that really mean when you are "shackled by debt?"

There has to be some changes in this country and sadly, I don't see the Democratic party leading the way. I want them to, I really do - but with the leadership in Congress constantly caving in to the worst President this country has every known, how can I be inspired by a party like that?

There's a deficit in confidence and a surplus in fear in our government. It has become quite ... catastrophic.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
147. If you think it's just the rethugs, you are seriously deluded.
MANY of the dems are just as guilty as the rethugs of propping up our corporate care system.
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Shoelace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #147
148. it's not like Hillary didn't try back in the early '90s (watch "Sicko" pls)
but what happened then? Well, it's history! All the assorted neocon corporate entities who run this world now including all the Big Pharms, Big HMOs silenced that brave woman.
The ONE damned time any president's wife has spoken up to this issue and look what happened!
Hell, they threaten, cajole, murder or otherwise do in their opponents and she was a huge enemy back then.

The Repugs have always been the ones who've stopped Universal health care and if WE EVER GET A GOOD MAJORITY IN CONGRESS WITH A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT - we will see Universal health care, with or without all the freepers on this board now.

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #148
150. Universal healthcare has been an issue since Truman's time
and there have been plenty years when the Dems had both houses and the presidency. So why don't we have UHC? Because it's not a political-party issue, it's a <i>class</i> issue, and the Dems have never been on our side any more than the GOP have.

Our best shot was during LBJ's time, and now with Kucinich. But LBJ got stupid and let the "domino theory" nitwits pull us into the swamp in VN. And too many so-called Dems are eager to vote for one of the three DINOs bought and paid for by the corpos instead of for a real, lifelong "cradle Dem": DK.
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Progressive Radical Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #150
161. Well said.
Edited on Sat Dec-22-07 01:44 PM by Progressive Radical
As I stated above, I'd like for the Democratic party to lead the charge for UHC, however, facts on the ground are not indicating this. (exceptions of a few such as Dennis Kucinich)

The party doesn't have a consistent platform that would weed out the Insurance Industry or Big Pharma completely. Paying for healthcare is a serious joke. It's deadly serious.

People die because of this system. Real human beings. Natalie died because of a quota to deny so that a man can have two yachts instead of one.

Anything short of Universal not for profit Healthcare is a joke. Hell, people in France get doctor house calls within an hour and they pay zilch for their medicine. It's incredible how money dictates our way of life here in the States. I hate to say this but looking to the Democratic party for UHC is like looking to the devil to save your soul.
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #161
182. "looking to the Democratic party for UHC is like looking to the devil to save your soul."
Right on! I was just reading Malcolm's 1964 "Ballot or Bullet" speech, where he pointed out that:
In Washington D.C., in the House of Representatives, there are 257 who are Democrats; only 177 are Republican. In the Senate there are 67 Democrats; only 33 are Republicans. The Party that you backed controls two-thirds of the House of Representatives and the Senate, and still they can’t keep their promise to you, 'cause you’re a chump. Anytime you throw your weight behind a political party that controls two-thirds of the government, and that Party can’t keep the promise that it made to you during election time, and you’re dumb enough to walk around continuing to identify yourself with that Party, you’re not only a chump, but you’re a traitor to your race.
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Progressive Radical Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #182
183. Anyone who puts party above principle is a traitor to progressive causes.
That's my opinion but it's mine to have.
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #148
164. Sicko does give Hillary credit for her attempt, but it also points out that
she's too tight with the insurance companies now.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
187. Agreed. All the more reason for universal healthcare.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
35. I worked for a MAJOR Children's Hospital
we had excellent insurance. THEN we got CIGNA. :(
Funny thing was...that even people in the insurance department said that they were the worst payers.
Hospital said it was an economic move.
Yet, the very next month, there was a brand new patient van in the parking lot that said "Donated by CIGNA".
Yeah, we know how this works. :(
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #35
69. Let's just say I wasn't surprised to see it was Cigna doing that.
My college made everyone carry their insurance and have our parents' insurance (if we had it) as secondary. Everything was a horrible, nasty fight. Cigna refused to pay for anything, saying they weren't the primary when all the paperwork said they were. Horrible, horrible, nasty evil bastards.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #69
143. I'm fortunate in that I only have Cigna for dental insurance
(Blue Cross for med) and I have had to fight with Cigna to pay dental claims. Because of periodontal problems, I have my teeth cleaned 4 times a year and I have had to fight with them to pay the cleanings with the periodontist. They're excuse was that they had nothing that showed I had a history of periodontal problems (my former dental insurer, Delta Dental, never questioned why I was seeing a periodontist, they apparently were willing to assume I had some problems). Three times my periodontist's office has sent them my history.

Today, I received the benefits info from them on what they were paying for the crown I had done this month and this was printed on the statement of benefits:

"Oral health matters.
Gum disease may adversely affect other conditions, such as diabetes, heart disease, stroke, premature birth, and other health issues. Please see your dentist for regular checkups. Gum disease is treatable and preventable"

You'd think they'd have their computer set so it wouldn't add that little blurb to statements sent to people who have had to fight them to get their perio maintenance paid for.
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. K & R for this dear girl.
My own mother is fighting for some long term care and rehab from a stroke, so I feel for these people.

May these insurance pigs rot in the fires of hell.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. I was denied a life saving liver transplant
Luckily I was Union represented, and we had open enrollment. My heart goes out to her family. I've had 14 years since then. They were so nasty about it too. Health Plan of America (sold to Secure horizons)
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benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. And you're still surviving
I'm very impressed.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. it was tough going
when I really wasn't up to a fight. Thank you Communications Workers of America
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. i'm glad You were fortunate
:hug:
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RavensChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
100. Bless you!
You were given the best gift anyone can receive--another chance at life. That's one more reason why I support unions no matter what others say how corrupt the system is.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
163. I'm glad you were UNION
And wake up the rest of you!
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
134. Did you consider your transplant "experimental"?
Seems to me that liver transplants today are fairly well understood, considering that the first one was done in 1963.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #134
145. mine was for Hep B
Edited on Fri Dec-21-07 10:29 PM by mitchtv
It was until recently a reason to deny. Then, they discovered a way to stop reinfecting the graft. Word speads quickly and it suited the HMO to be behind the times. HB transplants were just coming in, to my understanding.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. Oh, no! I'm heartbroken. May she rest in peace.
Her family is in our family's thoughts and prayers. Healing and comforting energy headed their way.

:-(
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. That this type of thing is dictated by a *$Y#!@($ insurance company...
...is just INEXCUSEABLE.

As far as I'm concerned CIGNA MURDERED this girl.

NO EXCUSE for this crap. "Experimental"?!?!?!?!!!

:mad:
:mad:
:mad:
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
33. I agree with that sentiment
This is murder by greed.
John Grisham's "Great Benefit" has come to life, reincarnated as CIGNA.
This comes close to imitating his plot, which is really scary.
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lisainmilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #33
79. Sadly Agree!
:banghead:

They should be held accountable.
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #9
47. No doubt, and what sucks
is that people like Larry Hagman, who spent his life destroying his liver, have no problem getting one- just because he has money.
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percussivemadness Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #47
80. hold on a sec, you are completely out of order
that dig at Larry Hagman is just plain wrong. Many people spend their lives destroying their bodies (people who smoke), are you saying that if anyone does this they should be refused Health Care?. What kind of sick fuck are you?.

The issue isn`t whether Larry Hagman has the ability to pay for a new liver, I happen to know Larry personally, he doesn`t drink anymore and has spent the larger part of his later years pushing environmental cause (he owns the the largest domestic installation of solar in the USA, drives a hybrid and campaigns tirelessly at his own expense on environmental issues), the issue is a sick system where insurance company executives get paid bonuses by "denying care".

Instead of bitching about celebrities who have every right to do what the hell they want with their money, try getting off your arse and supporting a cause to change this sick system in the USA. Go here for starters http://www.whereismyhealthcard.com /

:grr: :grr:
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Blue Fire Donating Member (588 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #80
94. Not defending either side here, but
I believe the point being made is that the value of money rather than the value of a human life is all too often the deciding factor in who receives health care. I'm glad to see Larry Hagman sobered up and using his second chance to accomplish something good and positive, but the underlying question is would he have gotten that second chance had he been a working class ordinary Joe relying on an insurance company like CIGNA?
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percussivemadness Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #94
105. I totally agree with you
Having been involved in designing the movie, I was shocked at what the research brought up. It is a sick society that deprives anyone of health care, irrespective of whether they area billionaire or unemployed. I am English, my mum and two sisters are proud National Health Service nurses. I listen to the total garbage put out by the RWs about how the UK system is flawed. Simple fact is, if you need a life saving operation, you will get it under the UK health service. Yes it has problems, but they are the result of an insane policy where the nurses themselves lost control of the wards many years ago.

Free Health Care isn`t a privilege, it is a basic human right, and I am saddened that this poor girl has died, its is disgusting, sickening and a sad indictment on American society, however, finger pointing at people who have utilised the system as it is built, is not a way forward. We have mass protests in the streets to end the war, something I am passionately in agreement with, but really, this is an issue that should get people enraged, and perhaps if as much effort went into organising protests against this corrupt health system as went into ending the war, something may change.

peace
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #80
122. As someone said
Edited on Fri Dec-21-07 01:09 PM by awoke_in_2003
the point I was trying to make was that if you have money, you can get whatever you want. If you don't have money, you can go off and die somewhere for all they care. This was not a personal attack on Hagman, just a comment on the system.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #80
127. thanks,
Edited on Fri Dec-21-07 02:18 PM by mitchtv
some people would deny benefits for obesity, smoking, drinking, gayness, etc etc
** Although the Mickey Mantle case might fuel objections of unfairness. The Bob Casey incident raised some eyebrows too.
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trogdor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
114. Larry Hagman was a smoker, not an alcoholic.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
62. I've heard it said
that there are doctors who have found treatments to cure cancer, but the insurance companies don't want them used, as they make more money from conventional cancer treatment. I know my doc cured my husband of Hepatitis C, and we paid for the treatment. A friend of his who took interferon wound up sick and unable to work.
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percussivemadness Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #62
124. there is a foundation in CA that have found a pretty effective treatment for HIV
http://www.omegafoundationforaids.org /

They have been trying for over a year to get funding, but every door that has been opened has been shut equally as quickly. Read the scientific studies found on their site if you have any doubts.

The fact that the treatment works is irrelevant, its all about money.

Peace

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freebrew Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
71. The Insurance Company was certainly involved
and should face consequences in any civlized country.
But don't forget the hospital could have gone ahead and done it, regardless.

Thet are equally guilty, IMO.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
75. I agree with you. This was homicide.
Or perhaps Depraved Indifference to Human Life? I don't know if I'd call it criminal negligence since it was so clearly deliberate.
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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. this is disgusting.
every time i see or hear the word health "insurance" i get angry. it should be a right.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. Oh dear lord. How unbelievably horrible. n/t speechless.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
12.  real universal health careis the only answer
fuck the insurance companies
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Hillary and Obama want to deal with the insurance companies .. Edwards
says that if you invite them to the table, they'll eat all the food. :loveya:
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JeanGrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
106. Universal health care may have made no difference in this
case. Under universal health care I doubt they'll be doing procedures that don't have a high probability of success.
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
13. Too experimental .. this, a decision from some pencil pusher? It would
never happen in any other developed nation, all of which have universal health care.
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MikeNearMcChord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
66. But of course, if this was the pencil pusher's daughter
or the child of a CIGNA executive, then it is another story.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #13
93. A pencil pusher that works for Cigna makes the decision, this
system is B*LLSH*T.
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Dukkha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. Merry Christmas
:(
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Lint Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
17. Health care is a human right!
People that make money from the suffering of others are despicable. :dem:
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. she wasn't the first and won't be the last
sad
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liberaltrucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
19. Murder by spreadsheet
:argh:

Fuck you CIGNA, may your bean counters burn in hell!

:mad:
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #19
91. Murder by spreadsheet is right.
Anything to make a profit... If she were in my family, I'd be likely to go postal on these guys.
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HowHasItComeToThis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
20. PROFITS OVER EVERYTHING, WALL STREET IS A MURDERER
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
21. CIGNA should be held accountable
at the very least, they should be subject to a civil suit naming them as responsible for the death.
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Wisconsin Larry Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
22. I've been self employed for 17 years and have had a number of private health insurance plans
Every Senator and Representative should have the same "opportunity" to "enjoy" the "benefits" of a private health plan. High costs, no benefits, and uncertainty if coverage will really be there if really needed.

When ever health care comes up with my Republican neighbors, I just reiterate my experiences with private insurance and they get very quiet. All of them are covered by corporate retirement plans and are very nervous those benefits will be lost.

My bottom line? Everybody espousing private plans should be on one. Then we'll have universal care in a heartbeat.
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Nobody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #22
43. And we think we're civilized. We're not.
Former Sen. Mark Dayton (D-Minn) won my respect a few years ago when he proposed that senior citizens should have the same health care benefits that the Reps and the Sens get. Suddenly the Republican Sens and Reps got in a tizzy because they thought that Mark Dayton was proposing to CUT their benefits.

Nope. All he was saying was that seniors should get better coverage.

I agree, and not just seniors. Not just children as with the Bush-vetoed SCHIP. Everyone. Every single one of us. We can afford it, it's just that we as a society refuse to share with people we as a society consider to be the "other".

The problem isn't "Can we fund this?" it's "Why should I share with Them*?"

(*Them: Anyone you consider to be unworthy of basic human dignity, whether it's poor people, minorities, people who do something stupid that ends up affecting their future negatively. But if your own friends and family were in the same situations, you'd be first in line to help them out.)
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geardaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
98. I'm with you there Larry.
I'm self-employed and have to pay a load because I had a kidney transplant (pre-existing condition). So I can't be covered under most insurance policies. I'm on the Minnesota Comprehensive plan. I'm lucky to live in a state that has such coverage, but I feel for the people who can't afford it.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
23. How sad, I read early of the insurance co. caving into....
internet pressure. Why in this day and age should a person have to be held hostage by the amount of their insurance coverage is beyond me. Were all dollars and cents instead of people to these companies who gamble with our lives. I hope CIGNA feels like shit.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-20-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Oh, they'll probably relish in the savings they just made.
:mad:

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. That's one way they make their money.
People hear about shit like this, and upgrade their insurance so it won't happen to THEM.

If they can afford to, that is.

The insurance company saves by not paying for the procedure, and makes more on the upgraded premiums of the scared little people - collects from both ends.
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Nobody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
157. Did they cave because of pressure or did they cave
because their medical experts said that Natalee was on death's door. How long does it take between an "oh all right, I'll cover you after all..." and the life-saving procedure actually happening? They probably waited until Natalee had no hope of getting the liver transplant in time. They win: They don't have to pay, and they avoid a PR nightmare. Well, we're on to them and there IS a PR nightmare. May it continue and may we finally get reform.

Natalee should be alive today, but isn't because of greedy assholes like the decision makers at CIGNA. Calling them scum insults the scum. They worship money above all else. All people are just surplus population to them unless they got money.

I have CIGNA. I fought on the phone for two weeks just to get them to cover a blood test for something I had not seen a doctor about ever. They claimed "pre-existing condition" because I dared to see a doctor the instant I had insurance after my employer finally gave me benefits after two years of temping exclusively for them.

If I get cancer, I'd better start planning my funeral. You're all invited.
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scytherius Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
26. Of course
WELCOME to Republican world. These people are not even human as they pontificate about their free markets and their wars and how all those who want health care are really doing is taking us down the path to socialism. If Americans don't soon take to the streets and take this government back then the blook of all these innocents are on our hands.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #26
68. Welcome to DU!
:hi:

If advocating for "universal health care" is socialism, then I'm a Socialist!

:dem:
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Progressive Radical Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #68
92. As am I!
Though, it's hardly socialism to expand coverage for every person in the country. It's just common sense.

Not that there's anything wrong with socialism/anarchism - we're just not evolved enough to create that kind of society. We're basically still in the hunter/gatherer days in that regard.

More's the pity ... :(
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
27. why I can't live in the US
healthcare should never be about profit, when it is this is the result.

Australians should really think about what the private health insurance rebate is all about - namely getting as many middle class people into the private system to allow successive govts to starve the public system which only the poor remain using.

Anyone here who shakes their head in horror in stories like this one should immediately cancel their private insurance and demand their MP abolish the rebate.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
28. The dozens of countries with universal health care must wonder why we kill our own people like this.
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sk8rrobert2 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #28
85. couldn't agree more. Hopefully this is the spark needed
to ignite the Universal healthcare fire which is currently no bigger than what one gets out a BIC lighter
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Progressive Radical Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #28
95. The usual talking point against universal healthcare is:
Edited on Fri Dec-21-07 11:20 AM by Progressive Radical
"We'd have to wait in lines."
"We wouldn't have a choice."
"We'd be taxed into oblivion."
"The costs would be enormous."

All of which are untrue. Take a look at France's universal healthcare model. No lines, people have a choice of providers, the tax burden is almost similar to the US (besides, if we quit spending ungodly sums on the defense industry, we could insure every man, woman and child in the world), and it's actually cheaper to implement universal healthcare - no overhead costs. Most of the money is provided for care.

THE FRENCH HEALTHCARE SYSTEM
The French healthcare system has been in place and has continued to evolve for more than one hundred years, and was classified the best health system in the world by the World Health Organization (WHO) in June 2000. It permits all French citizens access to treatment and to the latest discoveries in medical research. The success of the French health system is evidenced in the general health of the French population. Their life expectancy increases more than three months each year, and French women have the second highest life expectancy rate in the world.

The Healthcare System and its Users:

The French government provides a number of diverse and comprehensive healthcare rights. For more than 96 percent of the population, medical care is either entirely free or is reimbursed 100 percent. The French also have the right to choose among healthcare providers, regardless of their income level. For example, they can consult a variety of doctors and specialists or choose a public, private, university or general hospital. Moreover, the waiting lists for surgeries found in other government supported healthcare systems do not exist in France.

In France, health insurance is a branch of the Social Security system. It is funded by workers salaries (60 percent of the fund), by indirect taxes on alcohol and tobacco and by direct contribution paid by all revenue proportional to income, including retirement pensions and capital revenues. On the surface, it appears that health insurance reimburses medical care providers less in France than in other European countries. However, more than 80 percent of French people have supplemental insurance, often provided by their employers. The poorest have free universal healthcare, which is financed by taxes. Additionally, the treatment costs for those who suffer from long-term illnesses are completely reimbursed.

In July 2001, the government passed a law allowing the healthcare system to provide additional assistance to families who need help with daily tasks. On March 4, 2002, the government passed another law, establishing compensation for all medical-related accidents whether fault is found or not. These new rights were added to other long established rights, such as compensation payments in the case of pregnancy or disease prevention, medical care for workers and students, family planning, and systematic screening of certain diseases.

Organization of the Healthcare System:

Since 1996, the government has presented a law to parliament every year in order to finance social security. This document delineates the budget for next years national expenditures on health insurance. It additionally outlines goals to be achieved by the healthcare system during that year. However, these goals are broadly drawn as the actual healthcare budget varies according to revenue earned through taxes each year.

The government provides health insurance to three major groups of the population: salaried workers and their families, farmers, and artists and business professionals. Within each of these three groups, expenditures are divided by region and by type. Types of expenditures include general practitioners fees, specialists fees, medical prescriptions, public hospitals, private clinics, nursing professionals and sanitary transportation.

The state exercises its trusteeship through central, regional and departmental services. There are two large organizations that work under the Ministry of Health: General Health Management and Hospital and Healthcare Management.

Under the direction of these two large organizations are numerous health care facilities and agencies.

Doctors and Health Professionals:

Since the end of the 1960s, the number of doctors increased from 60,000 to more than 185,000 at the beginning of the 21st century. There are three doctors for every 1,000 habitants, which is an average ratio when compared to other Western countries (Great Britain 3:1800, USA 3:2700, Germany 3:3400 and Italy 3:5900). The number of women doctors in France is growing. More than 40 percent of practicing doctors are women and more than 50 percent of todays medical students are female.

Hospitals and Clinics:

The Medical care establishment is made up of three types of institutions: public hospitals, private clinics and not-for-profit healthcare.

One thousand and thirty-two hospitals fall under the public hospital statute. Regional, university, local and general hospitals are included in this category and can trace their history back to the first era of Christianity. Public hospitals include a diverse group of institutions. For example, the Public Assistance Hospital of Paris employs over 80,000 people while in comparison the smallest local hospital employs less than 300. The Public Assistance Hospital of Paris is the most important and largest group of public hospitals. Created after the French Revolution, it became a hospital organization for the poor and for those involved in work related accidents in 1941. Today, this establishment is a complex organization that is responsible for a high standard of care, medical technology and research.

In all hospitals, doctors, biologists, and dentists are all paid as hospital practitioners. Advancement in the medical field is by seniority. Under the Title IV statute of the Civil Service, there is a nation-wide ranking system of hospital practitioners.

Since 1985, each public hospital has been financed primarily (91%) by endowment funding that is paid for by health insurance funds. Calculated by bases from previous years, these endowments are developed each year by a national rate manager. In effect, through the Medical Care Program of Information Systems, it is possible to calculate identical activities, relative productivity of each establishment and, in principle, adjust endowments. The national rate is calculated according to macroeconomic factors (inflation, growth, public deficit), politics (research of social peace in establishments) and, very rarely, medical considerations (financing of new technologies). Hospitals are all under the same regulations. For instance, the Ministry of Health nominates the heads of all hospital services.

Private clinics have quite a different history from public hospitals. They were started by surgeons and obstetricians and eventually evolved into private hospitals. A 1991 law requires all doctors in private clinics to share medical files with their colleagues and to create a Medical Care Commission to form evaluation procedures.

Another sector of the French healthcare system consists of not-for-profit private hospitals. These hospitals were originally denominational and currently make up 14% of the inpatient services among French Medical Care Institutions.

They are financed through endowments like public hospitals, but have the right to privacy like private clinics. The cooperation between the public and private sector in the French healthcare system is a positive feature that allows citizens to avoid waiting lists for surgeries, which are often associated with socialized medicine. Indeed, private medical care in France is particularly active in treating more than 50% of surgeries and more than 60% of cancer cases. This unique combination of government financed medical care and private medical services produces a health care system that is open to all and provides the latest in medical technology and treatment.

Distribution of Healthcare Facilities

3,171 healthcare establishments offer 4,857,698 hospital beds for long-term care and 45,727 beds for short-term care.


1,032 public healthcare facilities (315,687 beds)

2,139 private for profit and not-for-profit healthcare facilities (170,382 beds)

Source: Ministry of Health
Principle Public Health Agencies


National Institute of Health: created in 1998 and monitors public health. Also alerts the public to emerging health risks and takes appropriate action to guard against them.

French Agency of Health Safety of Health Products: created in 1998 and has a mission of guaranteed independence, scientific competency and study of administrative efficiency. Additionally does research on therapeutic properties, usage of medicines and on health related products. Also participates in the application of laws and rules to the different commercial processes of health and cosmetic related processes. ? French Agency of Food Health Safety: created in 1998 and in charge of evaluating health and nutritional risks present in food for humans and animals.
Agency of Environmental Health Safety: created in 2000 and in charge of coordinating expertise on the risks to the environment.


French Institute of Blood: a public establishment of the state that succeeded the Blood Agency in 1992. Oversees the need of blood, guarantees a safe system of blood transfusion within the French healthcare system and works towards adapting transfusion systems according to current research in this area.

French Institute of Transplants: established in 1994; coordinates transplant-related activities and involved in international transplant exchanges. Also collects information necessary to evaluate the quality of immunology pairing and gives opinions on procedures and activities relevant to the transplant process.


French Embassy
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Progressive Radical Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #95
102. The Case For Single Payer, Universal Health Care For The United States
The Case For Single Payer, Universal Health Care For The United States

Outline of Talk Given To The Association of State Green Parties, Moodus, Connecticut on June 4, 1999

By John R. Battista, M.D. and Justine McCabe, Ph.D.




Why doesnt the United States have universal health care as a right of citizenship? The United States is the only industrialized nation that does not guarantee access to health care as a right of citizenship. 28 industrialized nations have single payer universal health care systems, while 1 (Germany) has a multipayer universal health care system like President Clinton proposed for the United States.


Myth One: The United States has the best health care system in the world.

Fact One: The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990


Fact Two: The United States ranks 20th in life expectancy for women down from 1st in 1945 and 13th in 1960


Fact Three: The United States ranks 21st in life expectancy for men down from 1st in 1945 and 17th in 1960.


Fact Four: The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana


Fact Five: Outcome studies on a variety of diseases, such as coronary artery disease, and renal failure show the United States to rank below Canada and a wide variety of industrialized nations.


Conclusion: The United States ranks poorly relative to other industrialized nations in health care despite having the best trained health care providers and the best medical infrastructure of any industrialized nation


Myth Two: Universal Health Care Would Be Too Expensive

Fact One: The United States spends at least 40% more per capita on health care than any other industrialized country with universal health care


Fact Two: Federal studies by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting office show that single payer universal health care would save 100 to 200 Billion dollars per year despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits.


Fact Three: State studies by Massachusetts and Connecticut have shown that single payer universal health care would save 1 to 2 Billion dollars per year from the total medical expenses in those states despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits


Fact Four: The costs of health care in Canada as a % of GNP, which were identical to the United States when Canada changed to a single payer, universal health care system in 1971, have increased at a rate much lower than the United States, despite the US economy being much stronger than Canadas.


Conclusion: Single payer universal health care costs would be lower than the current US system due to lower administrative costs. The United States spends 50 to 100% more on administration than single payer systems. By lowering these administrative costs the United States would have the ability to provide universal health care, without managed care, increase benefits and still save money


Myth Three: Universal Health Care Would Deprive Citizens of Needed Services

Fact One: Studies reveal that citizens in universal health care systems have more doctor visits and more hospital days than in the US


Fact Two: Around 30% of Americans have problem accessing health care due to payment problems or access to care, far more than any other industrialized country. About 17% of our population is without health insurance. About 75% of ill uninsured people have trouble accessing/paying for health care.


Fact Three: Comparisons of Difficulties Accessing Care Are Shown To Be Greater In The US Than Canada (see graph)


Fact Four: Access to health care is directly related to income and race in the United States. As a result the poor and minorities have poorer health than the wealthy and the whites.


Fact Five: There would be no lines under a universal health care system in the United States because we have about a 30% oversupply of medical equipment and surgeons, whereas demand would increase about 15%


Conclusion: The US denies access to health care based on the ability to pay. Under a universal health care system all would access care. There would be no lines as in other industrialized countries due to the oversupply in our providers and infrastructure, and the willingness/ability of the United States to spend more on health care than other industrialized nations.

Myth Four: Universal Health Care Would Result In Government Control And Intrusion Into Health Care Resulting In Loss Of Freedom Of Choice

Fact One: There would be free choice of health care providers under a single payer universal health care system, unlike our current managed care system in which people are forced to see providers on the insurers panel to obtain medical benefits


Fact Two: There would be no management of care under a single payer, universal health care system unlike the current managed care system which mandates insurer preapproval for services thus undercutting patient confidentiality and taking health care decisions away from the health care provider and consumer


Fact Three: Although health care providers fees would be set as they are currently in 90% of cases, providers would have a means of negotiating fees unlike the current managed care system in which they are set in corporate board rooms with profits, not patient care, in mind


Fact Four: Taxes, fees and benefits would be decided by the insurer which would be under the control of a diverse board representing consumers, providers, business and government. It would not be a government controlled system, although the government would have to approve the taxes. The system would be run by a public trust, not the government.


Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care administered by a state public health system would be much more democratic and much less intrusive than our current system. Consumers and providers would have a voice in determining benefits, rates and taxes. Problems with free choice, confidentiality and medical decision making would be resolved

Myth Five: Universal Health Care Is Socialized Medicine And Would Be Unacceptable To The Public

Fact One: Single payer universal health care is not socialized medicine. It is health care payment system, not a health care delivery system. Health care providers would be in fee for service practice, and would not be employees of the government, which would be socialized medicine. Single payer health care is not socialized medicine, any more than the public funding of education is socialized education, or the public funding of the defense industry is socialized defense.


Fact Two: Repeated national and state polls have shown that between 60 and 75% of Americans would like a universal health care system (see The Harris Poll #78, October 20, 2005)


Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care is not socialized medicine and would be preferred by the majority of the citizens of this country

Myth Six: The Problems With The US Health Care System Are Being Solved and Are Best Solved By Private Corporate Managed Care Medicine because they are the most efficient

Fact One: Private for profit corporation are the lease efficient deliverer of health care. They spend between 20 and 30% of premiums on administration and profits. The public sector is the most efficient. Medicare spends 3% on administration.


Fact Two: The same procedure in the same hospital the year after conversion from not-for profit to for-profit costs in between 20 to 35% more


Fact Three: Health care costs in the United States grew more in the United States under managed care in 1990 to 1996 than any other industrialized nation with single payer universal health care


Fact Four: The quality of health care in the US has deteriorated under managed care. Access problems have increased. The number of uninsured has dramatically increased (increase of 10 million to 43.4 million from 1989 to 1996, increase of 2.4% from 1989 to 1996- 16% in 1996 and increasing each year).


Fact Five: The level of satisfaction with the US health care system is the lowest of any industrialized nation.


Fact Six: 80% of citizens and 71% of doctors believe that managed care has caused quality of care to be compromised


Conclusion: For profit, managed care can not solve the US health care problems because health care is not a commodity that people shop for, and quality of care must always be compromised when the motivating factor for corporations is to save money through denial of care and decreasing provider costs. In addition managed care has introduced problems of patient confidentiality and disrupted the continuity of care through having limited provider networks.

Overall Answer to the questions Why doesnt the US have single payer universal health care when single payer universal health care is the most efficient, most democratic and most equitable means to deliver health care? Why does the United States remain wedded to an inefficient, autocratic and immoral system that makes health care accessible to the wealthy and not the poor when a vast majority of citizens want it to be a right of citizenship?

Conclusion: Corporations are able to buy politicians through our campaign finance system and control the media to convince people that corporate health care is democratic, represents freedom, and is the most efficient system for delivering health care


More on what you can do here ...

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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
29. Horrible
Recommended with sadness.
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
30. how do these insurance motherfuckers sleep at night?
they should get a picture of this girl to be reminded of what fucking murderers they are!

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RavensChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #30
97. Exactly!
it saddens me to read about something like this right before Christmas. My prayers are certainly with the family.

I only hope the CEO of CIGNA has a good holiday 'cause he's gonna bust the gates of hell wide open in the end!
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PADemD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
107. Is there a billboard near the CIGNA office?
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #107
142. ooh--now that would be a good idea. n/t
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sasquatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
31. We need a version of the Boondock Saints for situations like this
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 03:07 AM
Response to Original message
32. RIP Natalee
:cry:

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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
34. Good God Almighty
A liver transplant has not been considered "experimental" in many years.
This is WHY we need profit out of healthcare. Period.
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Broadslidin Donating Member (949 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 04:41 AM
Response to Original message
36. What's this, no hospital 'Begging Bowl' placed at the foot of her sick bed...?
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jonnyra Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 05:22 AM
Response to Original message
37. This is why we need
a president who will work to dismantle this evil system, not one who wants to "negotiate" with them (Im looking at you Obama and Hillary). Not one who wants to keep this system afloat with some kind of smoke and mirrors legislation. This must be stopped...letting corporations determine who lives and who dies based on greedy profit motives is absolute evil.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 05:22 AM
Response to Original message
38. Anyone supporting Clinton or Obama MUST forward this story to their campaign.
There is no other honorable choice.

I will be doing this to EVERY campaign.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #38
109. Well, on a related note, see my post #108. I can't understand how members of Congress
can oppose some kind of universal care when their own coverage is gold-plated.
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 05:25 AM
Response to Original message
39. My condolences to Natalee and family
I encourage everyone to think about Natalee and the thousands that will die this month the next time there is an argument about the DP and how it stops crime.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 05:35 AM
Response to Original message
40. This is what happens when you have health care for profit.
Health care should never be about profit. Doctors need to do what needs to be done without the interference of business! The government needs to care for its citizenry not private, for profit, companies!
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southerncross48 Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
41. Board of Directors
here is a URL for the Board of Directors. Absolute scum!!!
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
42. Heartbreaking and so, SO infuriating.
I hope there are legal consequences for Cigna's unconscionable 'decision'.
Although it will NEVER bring back Natalee, perhaps hitting these corporate murderers in the ONLY place they care about, their bank account, will make them think twice before snuffing out another life for sheer greed (I can dream, can't I?) My heart aches for this family; we are a better country than this!

WE MUST ELECT SOMEONE WILLING TO TAKE ON THESE CORPORATIONS!!!
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
44. Cigna = Murderers
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Progressive Radical Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #44
104. CIGNA CEO = Murderer
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #104
111. Yes he is.
When will he be tried for his crimes?
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Progressive Radical Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #111
115. Tried for crimes?
He'll vacation in his villa on Ibiza. That's the only consequence he'll be subjected to for his actions.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. It will bite him in the butt eventually. sooner or later.
This is not something that has happened only once. He will get his comeuppance.
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Progressive Radical Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #117
119. I certainly hope so!
Sadly, times are changing where criminals are rewarded and innocents are jailed.
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #104
165. Isn't this the asshole that is paid $20 million a year?
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tomg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
45. My heart goes out to this family, and
my anger goes out to democratic candidates who refuse to stand up for universal health care.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
46. Who in this country is being a role model for compassion?
I'm just wondering, because, if the corporations take over, it's going to get real bleak around here.
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Mad_Dem_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
48. Disgusting!
There is no other word for it.

May the dear girl rest in peace.
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jonnyra Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. There is another word for it...
EVIL.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
49. Practicing medicine without a license.
Where were the right-to-lifers?
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. Excellent question!
n/t
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
50. Sad, but it happens every day. Remember how Andy couldn't
get through the doors of Johns Hopkins without $50,000 up front? If you have insurance you're screwed, if you don't have insurance you're screwed.
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Missy M Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
53. It is time for a health care revolution and the ouster of greedy criminal HMOs and.........
Insurance Companies from the decision making process.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
54. Chris Cuomo making excuses for the insurance company this morning
It's a wonder my TV survives my rage.

They are not EVIL - he says. Uh yeah dude -- they ARE. The fucking well ARE. :grr:
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emmadoggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #54
90. I heard that too.
"It's not the corporations, it's the SYSTEM."

Uh, yeah, Chris, the corporations ARE the SYSTEM. God, I wanted to smack him.
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EvilAL Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
55. Even if
if it was an "experimental" surgery, what did they have to lose by trying it? She was going to die regardless, and did, she may very well have lived. I'll take even a 1% chance on a surgery if I'm going to die any day without trying it. The parents should decide what surgery their kid gets, not the fuckin companies. I think the company held a meeting and decided that she might still die after the surgery, so why waste the money on it.

Shame. A real fucking shame.
I hope I'm never in that position, because I'll be in jail not too long afterwards.

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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. you'll get free medical treatment in jail
if you're seriously ill and cannot afford medical treatment, rob a bank, steal a car ... just make sure you get caught. :sarcasm:


:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

That kid had her whole life ahead of her. Cigna robbed her, not just of her life, but also the hopes and dreams of her family. I hope they sue Cigna and get a huge award. Don't settle with these bastards, drag them to court and make a spectacle of it.
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Patiod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #56
87. Actually, you probably WON'T get treated, but point taken
Prison health care is a crime

Yes, there have been some high-profile transplants, etc. (as a result of lawsuits), but prisoners are generally "cared" for by for-profit companies that lose money by providing any care whatsoever.

But I know what you're saying....
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Seedersandleechers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #87
128. So very true
I work for a non-profit hospital who runs the medical department in our county jail. We're all losing our jobs there for a "for profit organization" that's going to take over. Luckily, the hospital I work for has enough nursing jobs for us.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #56
151. According to her own doctors, after this liver transplant, she
Edited on Sat Dec-22-07 10:34 AM by lizzy
would have a 65% chance of living for 6 months.
This doesn't sound to me like the procedure would have given her a good chance to have a normal lifespan, and that's according to her own doctors.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-transplant22dec22...
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midlife_mo_Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #55
169. No healthcare system is going to pay for something with a one percent chance
whether it's private or government.

Her chances of recovery were much, much higher though, and she would have been eligible for the transplant in most countries, I suspect.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #169
171. She had a sixty five % of living for six months, according to her
Edited on Sat Dec-22-07 08:34 PM by lizzy
own doctors.
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Andy Canuck Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
57. Where are the Repugs this time?
Edited on Fri Dec-21-07 08:12 AM by Andy Canuck
Wasn't Natalee a more urgent life to save, perhaps even more pressing than Terry Schiavo?
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
58. I know what's more expensive than experimental surgery
The fucking lawsuit this family should do against Cigna. Cigna will wish they had just paid for the surgery instead
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
59. evil flourishes when good men do nothing...
This is the perfect example of the adage (paraphrasing here), 'evil flourishes when good men do nothing...".

This is the work of evil. This is the consequence of a market society. Those sons of bitches need to go to jail.

Best medical facilities in the world my ass! What good are they if no one can afford to use them!!??
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
60. We have to stop letting insurance companies practice medicine
My landlady is also my doctor. She does cutting edge treatments for various ailments. A lot of times the treatments she suggests are not covered by insurance, even though they have been shown to cure a person or to prolong their life. She was really frustrated one day, and told me (in general terms, of course) that a patient who was seeing her needed a particular drug for her ailment. Doc was not the patient's primary care physician. That doctor had prescribed medicines for other ailments. Doc wanted to prescribe this particular drug because she knew it would not interfere with other meds the patient was taking. The insurance company said no, they would only pay for another drug, which was cheaper. Problem was that drug would interfere with the other medications that the patient was taking. Patient opted to not take any drug at all, and her symptoms are getting worse.

Whoever gets elected President needs to tell insurance companies that it isn't their business to decide on the treatment of patients.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #60
173. Your last line is wrong
That should read, "Whoever gets elected President need to tell insurance companies that they are out of business."

Period.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
61. Inhumane, disgusting, criminal. Every "health insurance company" in this nation
are serial murderers. They kill thousands upon thousands of our fellow citizens every year, all for money.

Which candidates are proposing anything to get rid of this criminal conspiracy?

Which candidate are you voting for, and why?




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Summer93 Donating Member (439 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
63. Benefits - hardly
Who benefits from insurance

Life Insurance = death insurance it pays out to a third party upon the DEATH of the insured.

Health Insurance = death insurance it pays out to the insurance company each time it is used or not.

The best of show goes to the local HMO which purchased a tract of inner city land and then built the largest hospital with a four story one acre atrium complete with trees and several fast food restaurants. a patient there once needed wheelchair and was asked if they needed someone to push it?

My opinion - it is imperative that the insurance industry be removed from health care.
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
64. My head just exploded.
:nuke:

This is just sickening.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
65. Here's your caring health care worker for ya ...care for the white girl
but if you are black and poor you can just get out and die on the front lawn if the cops don't pick you up for loitering first.
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Branjor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #65
138. The dead teenager
WAS a white girl.

RIP Nataline.

We need universal health care for all as a right of citizenship just like the civilized countries have!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
67. ****Please call your Rep and Senators****
and demand Medicare for All.

Ask Reps to co-sponsor HR 676 if they're haven't already done so.

Ask Senators to sponsor a matching bill.

877-8516437

800-8280498

866-3381015

866-3409281

800-6142803

Thank you.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
70. I Wonder If The "Save Terri Schiavo!" Scumbags Will Get Involved
:shrug:
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RavensChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #70
101. I doubt it.
They vanished after she died so no tellin' who'll take their place.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
72. murderers and racketeers; plain and simple
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
73. WRONGFUL DEATH LAWSUIT.
probably wouldn't work. But definitely would be deserved.
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Cass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
74. This should be criminal. It really should.
There are some seriously screwed up priorities in this country when greed and money are more important than the life of a young woman. When are we going to get it together as a nation and do the right thing with universal health care? This has got to stop.

My deepest sympathies and condolences to Natalee's family. No one should have suffer this senseless and needless tragedy.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
76. national health care is a pipedream...
as long as the front runner candidates take money from big pharma and the health insurance corps, there will never ever be national health care in this nation.

the last thing those sycophantic bastards will do is fund someone that will work against their interests.

We The People have been sold down the river and not one of our "representatives" give a damn.

except for may Kuncinich and Russ Fiengold.
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0xDEADBEEF Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
77. Actually, we shouldn't call it "murder."
Cigna didn't "murder" Natalee Sarkisian. She died of natural causes, from a horrible disease.

Even if Cigna would have paid for a liver transplant, there was a possibility that she would have died anyway.

But here's what Cigna *did* do:

They took money every month from her parents (even if it was through an employee health plan). In exchange for those monthly payments, Cigna promised to pay for health care expenses that the family wouldn't otherwise be able to afford. The Sarkisian family was confident that if one of them got sick, at least they'd be able to afford the doctor and hospital bills (and these days, even deductibles and co-pays can be a hardship during a severe illness.) They probably knew about the clause excluding "experimental" procedures, but they most likely believed that that this clause referred to scenarios where the Mayo Clinic, or a Medical school hospital tries a procedure that has never been done before, and does not charge the patient, who is considered as a "volunteer" anyway. They had no idea that Cigna could just "decide" that a procedure was "experimental," because it cost more than they wanted to pay.

That doesn't sound like murder to me. It sounds a lot more like fraud.
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Progressive Radical Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
78. Un-Fucking-Believable
Hope the family sues CIGNA into bankruptcy.

It's absolutely ridiculous that one of the richest nations on earth can have this happen to one of her citizens - the inability to pay equals death.

When are we going to be a civilized nation?
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
81. We must all vow to fight 100 percent harder to stop the insurance co.
This is horrible.
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Wapsie B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
83. Natalee's family needs to be able to bring a company like CIGNA to it's knees.
But the company will go on, and those who made the decision to let that girl die will be rewarded. So much for karma in the world.
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #83
166. I hope her family has a lawyer like John Edwards.
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Wapsie B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #166
168. I do too.
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sk8rrobert2 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
84. And So It's Come To This. Anyone else read
The Rainmaker by John Grisham earily similar.
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
86. I saw this on the news last night
I started bawling.
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Patiod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
88. But the ABC headline says "NS was approved Thursday....."
The Disney-owned media giant chose to focus on Cigna's APPROVAL in their photo captions.

Glad one of the commenters said something like "Nataline's precious life was sacrificed on Cigna's altar of profit. Their SiCKO P-R ploy to reverse their denial only after she developed an overwhelming, and medically disqualifying systemic infection will fool no one. They're disgusting!"
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #88
167. ABC has removed the Natalee story from its website.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
89. A Fine Example of Corporate Greed. n/t
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geardaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
96. Umm...
Liver transplants aren't considered experimental anymore.
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f the letter Donating Member (402 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
99. i hate to politicize this, but
There is only one way out of this nonsense, and that is single-payer universal health care. To date, only one candidate will utter those words. We all know who i'm talking about.

Any 'health care reform' that does not include putting the insurance companies out of business is doublespeak and collaboration with those companies. 'Major' candidates, this means you. You're not fooling us
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Progressive Radical Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #99
113. See my post regarding "The Case For Universal Healthcare"
upthread.

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Kajsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
103. This is criminal.
Edited on Fri Dec-21-07 11:49 AM by Kajsa
Denying her or anyone else life saving treatment
is criminal.

It was too damn little WAY too late for these crooks!

Michael, get your crew ready.

This IS what SICKO is about.

May her dear soul rest in peace.

:cry:


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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
108. The thing that "kills" me is if she'd had the insurance that covers Congress members, she'd have had
this transplant. Sickening. :mad:
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
110. Addresses for the CEO of CIGNA below. . .
(cross-posted from DailyKos)
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/12/20/92943/929/...

Mr. H. Edward Hanway
Chairman and CEO
CIGNA Corp.

CIGNA Corporate Offices*
900 Cottage Grove Road
Bloomfield, CT 06002
860.226.6000

CIGNA Corporate Headquarters*
Two Liberty Place
1601 Chestnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19192
215.761.1000

If you can't reach Edward, try calling AHIP, here's a number to one of the PR hacks:

Mohit Ghose - AHIP - America's health Insurance Plans
(202) 778-8494



What say you, shall we vent our spleen on these murderous c***suckers ???
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
112. Gee, the "market solution" health care system sure is working great!
:thumbsdown:
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trogdor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
116. And yet...
...detractors to health care reform will still try to sell that same old BS about bad old incompetent government not capable of delivering the kind of health insurance you need. Shaaaaa. Like BCBS, Cigna, and the rest have been doing such a bang-up job. Right. Paying $1 in taxes to save $3, not to mention getting better care out of the bargain is wrong, but wasting a quarter trillion a year on Iraq is sound policy. Wow. Up is down. Who knew?
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Mark D. Donating Member (420 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
118. Change the message. Change the system.
Edited on Fri Dec-21-07 12:39 PM by Mark D.
First. Most of us agree, the Kucinich, single-payer, not for profit system, is best. Better coverage and care, for no new taxes. Dental, vision, mental, chiro and alternative care included. No premium, co-pay or deductable. Simplicity. That is enough for me to support it. MORE choice of doctors, and not less. These fucking insurers that kick doctors off plans that care about patients too much for the ones who won't order tests and save THEM money. Bastards. We have to change the argument for it.

Michael Moore and others are doing well to show it can work. But many dumb Americans who buy bullshit the insurers put out to protect keeping it the way it is will react to their wallet. They need to understand. Many fear their tax dollars going for the 10% the system benefits in coverage that they'll see as freeloaders, and ignore the hard-working, deserving 90% who need it more.

But in simplest terms, a Kucinich plan will save a single person 200-400 a month or more, a couple as much as 400-800 or more. A typical family 400-1600 or more per month. Don't they get it? Folks are paying thousands a year into premiums for terrible coverage the insurer will try not to approve. If the folks are greedy bastards, use their greed in the above examples to back your argument.

An instant pay rase for 90% of working Americans. A huge boom in the economy with all that extra income, and it's taxable, so the govt. receipts go up. There is almost no downside to all of it. With bankruptcy laws forcing hospitalized folks to struggle to keep their home in trying to deal with hospital bills they can't pay back, insurance becomes the new 'bankruptcy plan'. Think of it.

In simple terms, it's no longer health insurance now. It's bankruptcy protection. Co-pays are nearly as high as the cost of the doctors visit. ER co-pays are so high folks won't use them unless they're taken there in a near-death state. How many are dying at home for not going in too the ER for chest pain saying 'too expensive, probably just indigestion'? It's become restricted indemnity insurance.

The HMO concept of 'low cost doctors visits' is gone and they never intended it to last. It started low/affordable to lure us in. Now they've got it. An ever shrinking network of 'approved doctors' (the ones who order the least tests to save insurers money) and so little covered. Some places, like United Healthcare (the nations biggest health insurer) deny virtually all claims as a policy. It is simple. 80% won't appeal that denial, 50% of the appealers won't appeal a second time. etc. It all just serves the purpose of saving them money on claims, maximizing profits.

Change the system. Really change it. If not initially eventually. This is important. The top three, and that includes 'fight the system' Edwards have plans that keep profit in place. They do nothing to demand lower co-pays/deductables. Edwards alone has a 'buying pool' idea to save some premium costs. But none of that helps you when your typical insurer pulls denial of coverage bullshit. More than 1/2 of the time they do, it is covered, and they KNOW IT. They deny it hoping the patient will just go away and not appeal it. And it works. This would not happen in a govt. run single payer plan.

I am worried if one of them, or God help us (literally) Romney gets in and puts into place the plan he already has in Mass, that the top 3 Democrat plans are near identical to. I worry folks will say 'we are all set' and take no more action. It won't be 'all set' then. I hope that it would be just a step in that direction for Edwards and possibly Obama. Cliton? No way. Too much insurance industry lobbyist money going to here. She'll never give in to them. Even after 8 years of what she'd call a 'successful' administration, even with economic growth (as an excuse to even more raise prices) I can see insurance prices being a thousand for single, two thousand for couples and more for families. There is nothing that will be in place to stop that ridiculous price gouging.

Sure, salary growth, a thing of the past now, may kick in. But it will be far less than that increased cost, along with other increases, even with supposedly 'low inflation'. You cannot keep this kind of cycle up and maintain a growing middle class. Or a middle class at all. Folks caught up in the latest Brittany Spears and her underage sister's pregnancy and whatever corporate media 'news' distraction can't see this now. They only understand a wall against their backs. I want to think it will change at some point. I keep waiting.
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TexasBushwhacker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
120. This must stop!!!
Normally, the thing that limits someone getting a transplant is the availability of an organ. If a person qualifies for a transplant and an organ is available, the transplant should be done, PERIOD. If it's "experimental", fine. Cutting edge medicine often is experimental. If doctors are allowed to prescribe drugs for off label reasons, and perform c-sections so that a patients delivery doesn't interfere with their tee time, then transplants should be covered. No one is getting organ transplants for FUN!

As awful as this case is, it may be the catalyst for implementing universal, single payer health insurance.
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MsMagnificent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
121. If her name was CHENEY
she'd have the pick of a dozen prime livers and kidneys, and CIGNA would be fawning all over her whilst bending backwards to help her.

Alas, in this "classless society", her last name was not Cheney nor was she connected to any 'some citizens are better than others'.

So now the poor young girl who had gone through so much in her short life,

is dead.


She has not 'passed', let's not use any phony euphemisms here;
let's use the proper word in all its awfulness and its bitter truth -- this young girl is dead


While Cheney lives on.

While Guiliani lives on.

While Rumsfeld and Rove and O'Lielly and Mellon Scaife & etc. & etc. & etc. live on.

While countless, evil pseudo-Christian greediguts live on and on and on
with the absolute best in Health Care
to a great long life
striving each day, I'm sure, to figure out a way not only to slide a camel through the eye of a needle,
but one (or more!) dromedaries fully laden with their ill-gotten, unearned, undeserved riches.
Still, they rationalize to themselves: didn't they help their fellow man?
Even for them that may be going too far -- but still, Sure! They helped the common man?
Didn't they do as asked,
er suggested,
er, was hinted to:
didn't they Trickle Down??


Well there ya go!

I mean, what fun will Heaven be if you're merely equal to everyone else like the common man: the 'mob', the 'rabble', the proles, those who are non-white, who aren't/weren't filthy rich, the losers who didn't live in the right houses in the right neighborhoods; those who aren't part of one's 400 good friends or so
At the least with the rich --nouveau or not! The money itself is the thing, it doesn't need to age like wine! Of course money and power equal quality!
But worst of all... how could they possibly be in Heaven with those who weren't Raptured??!!
*gasp*!



Ah well, there surely must be Many (gated) Mansions in the afterlife for these fine, superior, preponderant captains of Power and Industry, Politics and Venture Capital; with VIP sections for their family (but only if said captains so desire).

...yet perhaps one may hope -- if there IS a fair God-- that the climate may be a tad warm for their exquisite, supercilious sensibilities.


Sorry to be so bitter,
but this is simply a sin of the greatest magnitude... IMO at least.
And this from the "Culture of Life" people. :cry:
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
123. A few minutes ago MSNBC reported that the family had hired
Atty. Mark Geragos to represent them in a suit against the company and apparently he will be forwarding information to the District Attorney in hopes of having manslaughter - or worse - charges filed.
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whatdoyouthink Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
125. Wonder what Cigna Bonus's are this yr
How Much you want to bet? all the "Big wig's" (the people that cut off or delay payments to those insured) at Cigna get a big fat Bonus this yr!
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WilyWondr Donating Member (380 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
126. Chief Executive Officer
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/12/0BHA.html

H Edward Hanway
Total Compensation
$28.82 mil (#35)

5-Year Compensation Total
$78.31 mil

H Edward Hanway has been CEO of Cigna (CI) for 6 years. Mr. Hanway has been with the company for 28 years .The 54 year old executive ranks 3 within Health care equipment & services.

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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
129. Kick. (nt)
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Progressive Radical Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #129
130. Kickitypoo ...
This needs to stay on top.
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leaninglib Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
131. This is truly a sad event. However, I believe that this sort of incident would occur tenfold
under a government run health care system.

At least you can sue the insurance companies.
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roguenkatz Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. You must work for the insurance industry...
Because the idea that the government would run the system is completely false. It would be run by the health care industry. It would only be PAID for by the government. Good luck being a common man suing the insurance companies and HMO's with their very highly paid and very powerful attorneys.
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leaninglib Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #132
176. What you describe is FAScIsM. Because if the government PAYS, the government CONTROLS
and under fascism, industries remain in private hands, but under strict government control.

As far as the common man not being able to sue insurance companies goes, I have two words for you: "John Edwards."
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #131
149. Hogwash!
Nice little RW talking point there toots. Work in the medical/insurance field? :sarcasm:
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #131
154. You live in fantasyland
With beachfront property!
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leaninglib Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #154
177. I would say that it is you who lives in fantasyland.
If you believe the fedgov is capable of managing the healthcare industry, you haven't examined the data as it relates to past performance.

If someone wants to get an idea of how something will perform in the future, they typically look at the record of past performance. And if past performance is any indication of how the fedgov will perform, the shorts will carry the day on this one.

This is a no-brainer, my friend.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #131
158. As long as profit is tied up with health care, we'll have these
problems. When the insurance company is motivated by the bottom line (and they all are, regardless of adverts to the contrary), people's health care will suffer.

Yes, insurance companies can be sued. And we can elect our government. Which leads to a better response?
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leaninglib Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #158
178. You make some good points; however, I do not believe you have considered the fact
that the fedgov will have to become concerned with the bottom line too. Especially after the beltway bandits get involved and begin stealing the money set aside for health care. It would then become necessary to begin rationing and incidents such as this one would become an everyday occurrence.

And while I believe that governments can be held responsible at the local level, that undertaking becomes more difficult at the state level and nearly impossible at the federal level. Case and point: Iraq.

Moreover, there would inevitably be fights over what should be funded. Abortion would be at the top of the list, along with health care for Mexicans, sex-change procedures, tattoo removal, breast enhancement and on and on and on.

There would also be the moral issue of forcing those who take care of themselves to become responsible for the healthcare of those who practice unhealthy lifestyles.

So, while there are most definitely issues with the present healthcare system, we will all clamor for the "good old days," once the fedgov takes over.
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midlife_mo_Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #178
181. First
Edited on Sun Dec-23-07 10:00 AM by midlife_mo_Jo
Procedures like tatoo removal and breast enhancement would be considered cosmetic procedures. You're right, they wouldn't be covered under single payer, but they're not paid for by insurance right now, so that's a wash.

We are the ONLY industrialized nation without a national healthcare plan, and before you tell us how awful they are, most citizens in other countries are quite happy with their healthcare. Where they work especially well - like France - hospitals, doctors, etc. are NOT socialized. They don't work for the government. (Medicine is socialized in England, and it's not very good, imo.) Anyway, doctors and hospitals simply get paid by the government's healthcare plan. Plans are run like very large risk pools. The risk is spread out amongst regions or entire countries, thereby ensuring better affordability for everyone. Paper pushers are largely eliminated, thereby taking out a huge chunk of wasted money. Profit for insurance corporations is eliminated, thereby taking out a HUGE chunk of money that is available for actual medical care.

Take Canada - we hear of long wait times in Canada. In fact, those wait times tend to be in regions where specialized healthcare isn't as readily available. That happens HERE. I had no wait for specialized testing in a large city in the U.S., but my aunt had to wait a couple of months in a rural area without all the latest equipment. At least in Canada, the various regions are required to post wait times, and the agencies responsible for health are now attempting to place resources where they are needed. My friend in Vancouver has no long wait times, but she's in an urban area.


Healthcare is already rationed for tens of millions of people in this country. Many people are only one pink stub away from healthcare. How many people can afford the high cobra payments after they lose their job? Many can't.

In my own experience, I am having to fight my insurance company to pay for my - rather routine - cancer treatment ( survival rate 95% + at 5 years) . They hold ALL the cards. All the cards.

Want to know how they deny care?

1) My surgeon didn't pre approve the lab work involved with the biopsies. NEVER MIND that they preapproved the surgery! What in the hell did they think they were going to do with the tissue removed? Throw it in the trash and not look at it? The very nature of a biopsy says that the tissue will be examined. Talk about use any excuse to avoid payment!

2) My surgeon didn't pre-approve the surgery to remove the cancer. NEVER MIND that I was in the office when the doctor's clerk called the insurance company to verify my benefits and schedule my surgery. I WAS THERE.

3) This procedure is not one of our covered procedures. (A common procedure.) Oh, boy, did I get them with that one. "FINE! I've decided to have a masectomy, and BY LAW you assholes will have to pay for my reconstructive surgery or I'll sue your asses." Twenty four hours later, procedure approved.

Do you have any idea how many people on both ends have been involved in the denial of these claims? The idiots at the insurance company, my doctor's office workers, the hospital's claim office arguing for the lab work, blah, blah, blah.

In the meantime, they still aren't paying the lab, and the lab is ready to turn us over to a collection agency, because I'm responsible for the bill.

And this happens again and again and again and again.

And it's ridiculous to tie healthcare to employment. Absolutely ridiculous. My husband has to stay tied to a job instead of starting his own business because I have a so-called, pre-existing cancer condition, now, and we can't afford private healthcare for our large family.

This is totally fucked up.

We are the ONLY industrialized nation without healthcare. I'm sure to some warped minds, that shows our superiority, but in my mind, that shows how utterly stupid and selfish we are.

Oh, and while I'm at it, I'm sick of drug companies making exhorbitant profits off of Americans, while selling drugs cheaply overseas. They can lower their profits, or start spreading the costs internationally. I'm sick of being screwed.
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leaninglib Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #181
188. First, let me say that I empathize with your situation and wish you the best.
I also understand the frustration that you and so many others experience when dealing with insurance companies.

However, I don't think trading one group of idiots (insurance bureaucrats) for another group of idiots (government bureaucrats) is the answer. Especially, when one considers that the latter group has a long track record of fiascos, failure and fraud.

I do agree that something needs to be done about the cost of drugs in the US in comparison to other countries. The problem relates to the fact that the US carries the load for the rest of the world when it comes to developing pharmaceuticals. Unfortunately, many other countries refuse to contribute their fair share and Americans end up picking up the slack.

The US also leads the way when it comes to advancing the progress of healthcare procedures in general. MRI's, CAT scans, CT scans, artificial hearts and many other devices and procedures were invented by Americans. The primary reason that we lead the way stems from the fact that the inventors of these devices are able to profit from their investments of time and money.

I also agree that it is foolhardy to tie healthcare to employment. This practice should be ended and individuals should be allowed the same tax advantages that corporations realize when providing healthcare for their employees. Furthermore, the government should remove obstacles like the one that forbids people from purchasing health insurance across state lines.

The long and the short of it is this: Health insurance should be no different than auto insurance. The government should get out of the way and let people be free to make their own healthcare choices.
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midlife_mo_Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #188
189. As long as you can be denied for pre-existing conditions
it doesn't matter if insurance isn't tied to employment.

My husband's employers - as part of his overall compensation package - have paid for our premiums for a couple of decades. Now, that I've had cancer, if we leave the company, I'm uninsured for my cancer. Basically, I'm not really that insurable, period.

That is totally fucked up. You pay premiums for years into a risk pool, and then when you need it, you can get shut out. The only way to avoid this is to go with a universal payer type plan.
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leaninglib Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #189
195. Once again, you make a valid complaint.
Edited on Mon Dec-24-07 05:29 PM by leaninglib
However, it is one that is easily resolved. One way to resolve it is to simply prohibit insurance companies from accessing the medical records of applicants. However, the method I favor is spreading high risk applicants amongst all of the insurance companies. That way, no one provider gets hammered with a majority of high risk applicants.

But it is readily apparent that you are willing to trade your freedom for what you perceive as the security of a government run healthcare system. Thus, we agree to disagree.

Merry Christmas and I wish you the best.
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midlife_mo_Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #195
198. Nice talking point, but it doesn't work on me anymore
Edited on Tue Dec-25-07 08:37 AM by midlife_mo_Jo
I have no freedom when the insurance company holds all the cards. All they have to say is that a procedure wasn't pre-certified, and I'm stuck with thousands of dollars of bills. Know an attorney who will take this case when only a "few thousand" is at stake? I don't.

While I believe every citizen needs to be enrolled to make the plan work, I don't favor making it a crime for a person to go outside the system. I do believe that people should be free to contract for a service outside of the system, therefore, you would have more freedom than you do, now.

Hospitals, clinics, doctors, etc. would remain private and independent. What freedom am I exchanging except for being a part of a very large risk pool that can't kick me out? You say the government will ration high end, expensive treatments? Hell, insurance companies are rationing simple, but needed lab tests!

May you never be tied to a job because you need the healthcare. May you never have to go to work sick from chemotherapy because you need the healthcare and can't afford the cobra payments. May you never see loved ones go bankrupt because they don't have healthcare. And may you never worry about the tens of millions who don't have healthcare. Don't worry about them. It's not good for your health.

And by the way, I'm not very well liked on this board because too many people think I'm not liberal enough. haha If you're only "leaning lib" - watch out!



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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #181
193. Just occurs to me, too
That were *everyone* involved in the same healthcare, the political pressure to do things right would be enormous. And of course, risk would be spread quite thin.

And yes, truly elective surgeries would remain where they ought to be: the responsibility of the person seeking them. And there would be areas in doubt, but that would probably be fought out in the political sphere, too. (IF treatments, newer less proven treatments, that sort of thing).

Nothing's going to be perfect, but what we absolutely know is that the current system is not working and is costing a fortune.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #178
192. I rather like the idea of a non-profit in charge, myself
But coming from the non-profit world, I may be biased.
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leaninglib Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #192
194. Unfortunately, when the profit motive disappears, innovation ceases to exist as well.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #194
196. Oh I disagree
I've worked in non-profits for more than 20 years now. We're often far more innovative than the corporate world.

When you have to make things happen with less, you'd be amazed at the innovations you come up with!
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leaninglib Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #196
197. Yes, but innovation in the medical industry requires capital for R & D.
And without profit there is no capital.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #197
199. I don't know. Are the scientists who are actually doing the
work only interested in profit?

I suspect most of that profit is chewed up in marketing budgets and other corporate flotsam and jetsom, you know?
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andym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
133. Why didn't the hosptial proceed and then sue.
I don't understand why the hospital/doctors didn't just proceed with the transplant and then sue the insurance company afterwards. Are they prohibited from this course of action?
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #133
140. Because companies like Cigna
depend on the hospitals to give charity care and not reimburse them they way an insurance company should.

They try to force the hospital's hand by holding the patient as hostage.

Does this sound like any ethical way to run a healthcare system to you?
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
135. Healthcare system is broken.
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rndmprsn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
136. this story is now #1 on google news...
...when is edwards going to beat the hell out of this company?
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #136
137. At the top of the DU Home Page too
and yes, Edwards is the reason insurance companies are paying gazillions to defeat him.
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Pilotguy Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
141. Let them know how you feel...
Media Contacts

Corporate and Financial News
Wendell Potter
Telephone: 215.761.4450
E-mail: wendell.potter@cigna.com

Gloria Barone
Telephone: 215.761.4758
E-mail: gloria.barone@cigna.com


HealthCare
For media from the following states, call:

CIGNA HealthCare New England Region
CT, MA, ME, NH, RI, VT
Lindsay Shearer
Telephone: 603.268.7721
E-mail: lindsay.shearer@cigna.com


CIGNA HealthCare - All Other Regions
AK, AL, AR, CA, CO, DE, FL, GA, HI, IA, ID, IL, IN, KS, KY, LA, MI, MS, ND, NE, NJ, NY, NM, OH, OK, OR, PA, PR, TX, SD, UT, WA, WV, WY
Kathleen Keenan
Telephone: 215.761.4756
E-mail: kathleen.keenan@cigna.com

DC, IA, KY, MD, MO, MN, MT, NC, SC, TN, VA
Ann Marie C. Raymond
Telephone: 860.226.5063
E-mail: annmarie.raymond@cigna.com

AZ (including CIGNA Medical Group), NV
Leigh Woodward
Telephone: 602.371.2019
E-mail: leigh.woodward@cigna.com

For national and trade media, call:

Wellness, Clinical and Quality Programs
Amy Turkington
Telephone: 440.934.5385
E-mail: amy.turkington@cigna.com

Products and Technology
Joe Mondy
Telephone: 860.226.5499
E-mail: joseph.mondy@cigna.com

Behavioral Health
Arlys Stadum
Telephone: 763.559.5587
E-mail: arlys.stadum@cigna.com

Dental
Jill Roman
Telephone: 215.761.1489
E-mail: jill.roman@cigna.com

Pharmacy
Lindsay Shearer
Telephone: 603.268.7721
E-mail: lindsay.shearer@cigna.com

Medicare
Lindsay Shearer
Telephone: 603.268.7721
E-mail: lindsay.shearer@cigna.com

Group Life, Accident and Disability
Jill Roman
Telephone: 215.761.1489
E-mail: jill.roman@cigna.com

International
Gloria Barone
Telephone: 215.761.4758
E-mail: gloria.barone@cigna.com



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lynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
144. It's not just CIGNA -
- and everyone needs to check their own health insurance as ALL policies have restrictions and exclusions for procedures considered experimental.
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JPettus Donating Member (356 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-21-07 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
146. What I would love to see
would be criminal charges for manslaughter brought against not only the individual pencil pusher but every member of Cigna's Board of Directors, their President and VP's who are part and parcel of the decision-making process that denies payment for life-saving procedures.

Then, on top of that, I would like to see a civil jury award record punitive damages against the company on behalf of the family, IN ADDITION to a 100% payment of all the family's medical expenses for their daughter.

You only hurt these bastards by making sure they hurt in the pocketbook and in their public-opinion factor. They measure what they will likely pay out in damages versus the cost of payment of these kinds of claims. IF the damages they pay far exceed the cost of caring for someone they will pay the medical expenses instead.

Of course, that's why the Bushies are so big on tort reform - protect the corporations at the expense of the victims.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #146
174. Good, now find a judge that won't overturn a truly message-sending verdict
For these companies to TRULY feel the pain of a jury verdict, that verdict needs to be in the hundreds of millions of dollars. They need to lose a significant portion of their profits, and most judges won't allow verdicts of that magnitude.

CIGNA, for example, needs a verdict of half a billion dollars against it to get their attention. a few paltry million doesn't cover it- they consider such levels of punishment a "business expense" (and if that doesn't make you scream, I don't know what will).

Rainmaker, indeed. I'm starting to think Grisham was prescient on this issue.
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
152. The thing that really gets me about this is that I watch Animal Planet
Edited on Sat Dec-22-07 10:27 AM by qanda
And it's against the law to even treat dogs like this. I just don't get it! How can we do more for dogs than we do for human beings? It just breaks my heart. I wish that family peace, comfort and justice.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #152
153. It's against the law to treat dogs like this?
How many dogs have you seen getting liver transplants while watching "Animal Planet?"
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lynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #152
156. Animal Planet?
Had this been an Animal Planet episode, they would have put her down.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #156
175. I think the poster is saying
that if a dog owner, for example, knew beyond doubt that their dog needed surgery, and didn't take them to the vet to get checked out, it would be animal abuse. If the vet refused to treat the dog, it would be abuse, if the owner can't afford the surgery but doesn't put the dog down, it's abuse, etc.

And it's true- we do in fact treat our dogs better than this.
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #175
184. Thank you so much
That's exactly what I was saying. I just wonder when DU started taking everything literally. Oh well, I'm glad you got it.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #175
200. Hah?
Edited on Tue Dec-25-07 10:48 AM by lizzy
Vets usually aren't going to treat your dog unless you have money to pay them.
Vets usually aren't going to give your dog free surgery. Dogs usually aren't getting bone marrow transplants, and liver transplants, unless you know something I don't. There really isn't much sense in the posters' analogy, but nice of you to defend it.
And by the way, when I took my sick pet to a vet, the vet would tell me how much this or that procedure would cost, to see if I was going to pay for it. If I said I don't have the money, guess what? The vet wouldn't do the procedure. I guess someone forgot to tell me and the vet that's actually animal abuse.


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leaninglib Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #152
179. I think you have been watching "Animal Planet" from another planet.
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #179
185. Welcome to DU
:hi: Sorry you felt it necessary to insult me but if you look above there's an explanation of what I meant.
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
155. Insurance companies are SCUM. Remember Nola?
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
160. This is so sad and unforgivable
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
162. HR676 in the congress
and SB840 in California would have saved this girl's life...

http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676.htm

Brief Summary of HR 676: The United States National Health Insurance Act,
Or Expanded & Improved Medicare For All

"Of all the forms of inequality,
injustice in health care is the most shocking and inhumane."
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

The United States National Health Insurance Act establishes an American national health insurance program. The bill would create a publicly financed, privately delivered health care system that uses the already existing Medicare program by expanding and improving it to all U.S. residents, and all residents living in U.S. territories. The goal of the legislation is to ensure that all Americans will have access, guaranteed by law, to the highest quality and most cost effective health care services regardless of their employment, income, or health status.
With over 45-75 million uninsured Americans, and another 50 million who are under- insured, the time has come to change our inefficient and costly fragmented non health care system.

Who is Eligible

Every person living in or visiting the United States and the U.S. Territories would receive a United States National Health Insurance Card and ID number once they enroll at the appropriate location. Social Security numbers may not be used when assigning ID cards.

Health Care Services Covered

This program will cover all medically necessary services, including primary care, in patient care, outpatient care, emergency care, prescription drugs, durable medical equipment, long term care, mental health services, dentistry, eye care, chiropractic, and substance abuse treatment. Patients have their choice of physicians, providers, hospitals, clinics and practices. No co-pays or deductibles are permitted under this act.

Conversion To A Non-Profit Health Care System

Private health insurers shall be prohibited under this act from selling coverage that duplicates the benefits of the USNHI program. Exceptions to this rule include coverage for cosmetic surgery, and other medically unnecessary treatments. Those who are displaced as the result of the transition to a non- profit health care system are the first to be hired and retrained under this act.

Cost Containment Provisions/ Reimbursement

The National USNHI program will set reimbursement rates annually for physicians, allow for "global budgets" (annual lump sums for operating expenses) for health care providers; and negotiate prescription drug prices. The national office will provide an annual lump sum allotment to each existing Medicare region; each region will administer the program.

The conversion to a not-for-profit health care system will take place over a 15 year period. U.S. treasury bonds will be sold to compensate investor-owned providers for the actual appraised value of converted facilities used in the delivery of care; payment will not be made for loss of business profits. Health insurance companies could be sub-contracted out to handle reimbursements.

Proposed Funding For USNHI Program:

Maintaining current federal and state funding of existing health care programs. A modest payroll tax on all employers of 3.3%. A 5% health tax on the top 5% of income earners. A small tax on stock and bond transfers. Closing corporate tax loop-holes, repealing the Bush tax cut.


----------------------------------

DU'er Gratuitous' beautiful description of how the funding would work using Social Security as an example:

We've overstuffed Social Security since 1982

Alan Greenspan said we needed to start funding the baby boomers, and FICA taxes went up, up, up on working folks. We've been overpaying this fund by mega-billions in anticipation of the pig in the python (baby boom generation) finally making it to retirement. Of course, the Republicans have plundered the fund to give it away to the overrich in tax cuts, but the full faith and credit of the United States backs that paper.

Social Security is totally solvent, and is slated to remain so for the next 75 years at least, which should cover the retirements of just about everyone here. The only way Social Security goes insolvent is if the U.S. defaults, and then a monthly retirement check is going to be the least of anyone's worries.

However, the object lesson of Social Security easily translates to a single payer system of health insurance for everyone. Yes, young people often don't think about buying health insurance for themselves. They're healthy and barring an horrible accident or a debilitating disease, they're pretty well set for 20 years or so. As young people pass into their 40s, 50s and 60s, they can continue to pay the same premium they've always paid, and newer workers (who are less likely to need big access to medical services) can pay a slightly higher premium, indexed to inflation. Just as young people are unlikely to start saving for retirement, Social Security payroll taxes do that for them; the same way they could begin paying for single payer health care when they're in peak health so that as they age, they can take advantage of a system that they themselves will build up through their own contributions.

Or does that make it too simple, and therefore unamerican (or at least unrepublican)?
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Progressive Radical Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #162
170. Kicking ...
We need UHC post haste.
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-22-07 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
172. I have CIGNA Denal Insurance and yes they must approve
before the procedure and yes they said no to a root canal for me so instead of footing the bill over a grand I just had it removed to which they happily paid 80 percent... I just dont get it and they wont pay to replace the tooth either... I should sue them too.
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boricua79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
180. hey, but at least our Trillion dollars won us a war, huh! huh!
oh...yeah...damn...

I guess there's really no good reason why this kid shouldn't have had her liver...ok...wow...

*crickets*.

:sarcasm:
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
186. How awful
I thought the procedure was to go ahead and do the surgery and worry about the cost later, though.

If someone is resorting to experimental surgery, some doctor is usually willing to do it, for what he/she can learn from it or how it can contribute to the advance of medical knowledge.

If the policy doesn't cover experimental surgery, what can you do? But it is just another reason we need a national healthcare plan - this is one thing that has to be taken off of market forces.
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Question_Everything Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
190. Clinton's "Health Care" proposal
Would put us forever at the mercy of companies like CIGNA! 

No Thanks Hillary! What we need is single-payer coverage for
ALL, not a system which will make insurance companies rich at
the expense of our health.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-23-07 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
191. Hillary wants insurance companies like CIGNA Insurance at the health reform table
like asking the Mafia to sit at a law enforcement table.

Single payer is the only way to get true universal health care for the American people.
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