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Omaha Steve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:59 PM
Original message
About 1 in 5 IBM Employees Now in India
Source: AP

By BRIAN BERGSTEIN

BOSTON (AP) - IBM Corp.'s expansion in developing countries shows no sign of relenting. The technology company revealed Friday that it now has 73,000 employees in India, almost a 40 percent leap from last year.

IBM did not provide updated figures for its work force in the U.S., which has held steady around 125,000 people in recent years.

Nor did IBM project its total head count. It had 355,766 employees worldwide at the end of 2006.

If the total has risen by the same rate as in 2006, almost one in five IBM workers now is in India, its second-largest center.

Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20071214/D8THFJ380.htm...
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Morereason Donating Member (496 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. Imagine our economy if they would have kept more of the capital in country and hired Americans??
Remember all those technology layoffs in the early 2000s? 10k Americans layed off at Intel, yet later it turned out they never reduced staff, just hired replacements from and in other countries...

Mass exit of capital, American Middle class made capital.... "Giant sucking sound" and all that
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. exactly - they have the same amount of employees now as then -
just a lot of IT people were told they were not needed - they were unqualified, etc. When in truth - they were moving things then - the younger people at the time who are now being forced out - thought it was the truth and helped tell the same lies over and over - now that they are being forced out to - now they are enraged -
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Morereason Donating Member (496 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. too many still believe the propaganda
unfortunately, I doubt things will really turn around until more people know the truth. Hopefully threads like this help.
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-17-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
42. Odly enough
Things are starting to turn a bit as the Dollar gets weaker...

Labor in India used to be 1/10th that of the US but rising salaries there and a falling dollar here are closing *significantly* that gap..
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Since salespeople, repair technicians, management and support staff
are still in the U.S. and haven't been outsource, that means that about 2/3 of the software developers and all of the call center people are in India.

No good tech jobs in the United States anymore.
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Morereason Donating Member (496 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. That is not completely true
Many employees have been shipped in at the same time. That trend has not been as dramatic, fortunately, because the number of H1-Bs that they could bring in has not been unlimited. However, now they can get around that by brnging in employees trained in other countries using other forms of visas. I would be willing to bet that there have been very few net jobs created and actually been filled by Americans in a number of the major players.
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rosetta6 Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. They don't need to use H1 visas
They can use L1 visas, which are unlimited.
The immigration laws are intended to help corporations dump Americans in favor of cheap foreign labor.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Outsourced repair people
IBM will find this overseas repair, technology, etc. won't work.

HP found out the hard way. I called about a printer problem spending at least two days trying to get an answer. They acted like they didn't understand (which they probably didn't). They may have been paid even when they didn't perform. I ended up getting a new printer. I believe HP brought back their repair and consumer problems to the US.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. Cool. But
It's also possible those staff had social skill problems, but were technically proficient. It's just as much of a guess, and as much a statement to counter the ones I've said previously because nothing is one-sided. Depends on the job to be done...

But it's rather difficult to work on hands-on problems over a phone line.
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Solar_Power Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. See this graph
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Morereason Donating Member (496 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
7. Please recommend the OP if youare concerned about this trend. More need to understand what is
Edited on Sat Dec-15-07 12:15 AM by Morereason
occurring.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
31. I could conjecture 3 or 4 possibilities,
but when reflecting on them publicly, more people than naught say it's tinfoil. Upon stepping back and re-assessing more parameters, I'm inclined to agree with their assertions to some extent.

I know it's fun to "connect the dots", but too many dots leads to a squiggle and not a proper image.

For humanity's continual attempts at "order", none has ever succeeded. Occam's razor prevailing, the base point is that what's going in is a genuine squiggle.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
8. "20% growth" at last.
In idiocy at least.
-
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Lost4words Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
10. and it was the gift of NAFTA that opened the floodgates
thats why I hate all things Clinton!

8643
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. started long before clinton - other countries protected their workers
when IBM would say it wanted to do business there - they made them legally agree to keep xxxx number of workers there or leave a country - therefore if work went down over there - they had to train and ship new jobs over to keep to the quota enforced by other countries - the other countries did a good job hold IBM feet to the fire while ibm either laid off, fired, or used attrition and propaganda that older workers could not compete anymore while they shipped the jobs out -
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
11. Of course they are. n/t
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
12. But TCS is creating thousands of jobs for All-American Ohioans
and investing heavily in this rather huge campus they bought in Cincinnati. This is after investments in Buffalo, Detroit, Minneapolis, and other Democratic-controlled cities that asked for their investments and hirings. They hired people like me from Western NY colleges because Hillary asked them to. Democrats make it happen.

http://www.indianraj.com/2007/09/tata_consultancy_servi...

http://www.ohio.gov/news/2007/sep.stm
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. We're headed for interesting times, in America.
The tiny mom and pop grocery store in town was just bought by a larger company. And nearly everything in the store is a product of China. Those are just words on a page. But as someone who has been paying keen attention to the "made in China" syndrome, I've watched this for nearly thirty years. Long before China was a word on people's tongues. I guess my knowledge of industrial processes helps me see the entire picture better than most. And especially since I just bought one of those shipping cargo containers from the port of San Francisco. I did some research before buying it, and came up with some pictures that amazed even me. HUGE, monster ships absolutely laden with maybe close to a thousand of these big containers. They're just streaming across the oceans. And what's in them is everything. Everything we buy. One of the things I grew up with was hardware stores. I was welding bicycles and gokarts at the age of nine. So I was intimate with everything in the hardware stores at an early age. First came bubble packs. Then the horse shoes disappeared. Actually, dynamite disappeared first. But that was a few years before my time.

So this little market has a hardware store in it. And I see that nearly every single item is a product of China. It's actually quite distressing. And I mean from a global warming perspective. Not just economics. And now I am paying attention to the food items. Almost everything in a can is also from China.

I'm worried. I'm actually afraid. Because we're suspended by a thin rope called petroleum. It's not quite the same as what IBM, and the rest, have done. We can get the jobs back. But it's quite similar in that we've extended not only our environment, but our economy. And...I don't know what. But it's like not being able to pay that mortgage. What happens next? I'm tired of living this way. Thirty years of watching. Damnit, I wish more people were aware. America is all about me, me, me. We deserve what is coming.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #13
27. Look to our youth...
The media makes interesting points about gen-Y.

Not always the right ones ("entitlement" being a load of baloney, not when the gulf between costs and wages has expanded so much over the last ~37 years...), but when they talk of "people skills", and then observing our 20-somethings, they are too obsessed with cell phones and the ilk. There is a legitimate concern.

I have a cell phone and I don't use it in store queues, driving, and everywhere else. I know cell phones are a necessity in lieu of the nearly extinct pay phone (that costs too much to use anyway), but the kids freely babble and send text messages on the things as if they're eating candy (which reminds me of the 8 year old whose belly was at least the size of mine, OMG...) Even during school, if I recall some media articles properly.

Oh, there are problems.

Sadly, when some people post solutions, with details, they often get one liner responses about being prejudiced in some matter. And that shit has got to stop too. And I don't often swear either.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
33. You're not alone.
I've been railing against exporting jobs since the '70s when heavy industry fell.

A country cannot keep its independence of action in the world if it cannot feed itself or manufacture its necessities. We can't do that anymore and have to kiss a lot of ass because of it. Add our huge debt which is foreign-owned to a large extent, and we're completely hamstrung in everything but our ability to bomb Iran.

The Chinese, as you know, have absolutely no environmental standards that they will enforce. Their coal plants are filthy and much, much less efficient than ours. Their industry is less efficient overall than what's left of ours, particularly in its use of electricity and increasingly unavailable usable water. China's is very polluted, as you know.

As petroleum becomes more and more expensive, which it will do as supplies either dwindle or stagnate and demand continues to grow, hauling everything long distances will become incredibly expensive. Even shipping around the U.S. by rail or heaven forbid, truck, will be a real cost. Then, what do we do?

I do not think that we are in any position to take on the challenges facing us. We are so split along economic, racial, ethnic and age lines that I just don't know my own country anymore. The lack of trust is astounding, and will be a great hindrance. Maybe it is just because I'm getting older, but I don't see the promise of this country that I saw even 25 years ago in the days of Reagan. I just see problem after problem after problem. The country, and our large cities in particular, have simply become unmanageable.

I expect to live in or near my small hometown when I retire. It'll be cheap, and I still know a lot of folks and fit in. I don't think that DC will be a good place in 20 years, nor will Chicago, or heaven forbid, Detroit.

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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. I see the same things too.
As I read your post I was thinking how lucky I was to be one of the last to get a two year degree in machine tool technology from the local jr. college. It's gone now. That was the early 80's. And I still can't believe the self inflicted kamikaze nose dive America has taken. It's a combination of our growth and our consumption. I still see crazy madness. People just haven't learned the importance of being frugal. But when things are cheap and easy, what does one expect? Take the easy road.

And I've been watching what's going on in China. I'm beginning to think that we are the ones fueling their pollution. They're dumping their exhaust waters into their estuaries, making stuff for us. And the rest of the world. But there is no sane responsibility. It's coming, though. And like my old father has said for over thirty year, our standard of living is going to drop. What a waste.

Also, I thought you might like to know that I'm really pretty excited to have just bought one of the last big acreages on the Mendocino coast. I can't believe it. We kind of talked about this stuff a while back. But I've spent all my money doing it. And suddenly I'm seeing that at my age, I'm going to need medical stuff soon. I guess that's how it works. We all get older. I'm happy to be part of a liberal community, but look at where America is in terms of health care. I discontinued my insurance in order to save a few bucks. The problems are surrounding us. I hate to think of losing what I just bought because suddenly I find I've got some horrible illness. How on earth are we going to handle our economy, environmental disaster, and medical care for everyone. Well, it's certainly not a boring time to be alive.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
14. THis is wrong... 73k jobs, can you imagine how many lives that would help here?
Profits... it's all about profits. Used to be that the stock market was a sideshow in the economy. Now it's the center of the universe. The lives of ordinary Americans who used to have bread-winner jobs have been destroyed by the quest for profit (to fuel obscene CEO salaries and $$ for the top investors).

I make it a point to ALWAYS mention to a customer service rep that is based in America that I appreciate that the jobs are still here. I ask them to please thank their managers, and I let them know that this is why I continue to do business with them. If I deal with a company that ships my call to India or Phillipines, I am polite to the caller, but I refuse to talk with someone that I can't understand nor can understand me. Many reps have told me that if you keep calling back eventually you'll cycle into an America based call center. I have closed accounts with various companies because of this, and have told them why.

These are desperate times. There is no mystery to the jump in youthful crime, and the resurgence of gangs. Parents are overstretched, underemployed, angry, and hopeless. The corporations are killing the American Dream. And it saddens me to see, even here on DU, that people are villified for wanting to own a piece of the American Dream (a house). I think that phenom comes from jealousy and anger and despair of not being able to move forward. All the years of repug rule in Congress, and two terms of that asshole Bush and his profit-takers, have just killed the middle class, destroyed hope, and turned people angry and powerless. All of this.. the outsourced jobs, the housing crash, the resurgence of violent crime, it all leads back to the White House.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
26. Or lack of action by the White House.
I will agree protectionism isn't the best answer (though we need to protect America from terrorists), but America's economy and Americans' livelihoods didn't need to be destroyed due to offshoring, which is not "globalization". America is part of the globe too.

Even having said all that, with IT I won't deny some jobs were indeed overvalued...

There is still some good in offshoring, assuming the recipients aren't fraudulent... but at this point I'd wander into 15 tangents, many of which I've said in the past and would doubtlessly say again. (Including how it has been an incentive for me to jumpstart my career as well... it's not all a bad thing.)
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. America is part of the globe.
But you can't live what we would call an acceptable life on what's being paid to computer folks in India or even what some of them are paid here. One person here can't compete with several overseas.

Please direct me to what you've said in the past that will give me hope for the future, because all I've seen is 35 years of the middle and lower parts of the income distribution going down the toilet. Including me.
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Solar_Power Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
32. IBM doesn't care about helping people here
IBM cares about maximizing profits
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
15. "IBM did not provide updated figures for its work force in the U.S"
Wonder why?

IBM should be a foreign company.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #15
30. I think companies need to put some infrastructure back in the US instead.
They started in the US and were built by Americans. That shouldn't give America a monopoly, I agree, but when hearing how many people who have worked have lost everything because of a greedy executive; it's another sign of structural if not societal decay.
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superkia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
16. Im so happy that Clinton made NAFTA priority when he was in...
office, I mean, look at how many jobs have been created for all of those people in other countries, we are a country of giving right? Yeah they get 5 cents a day or some shit, work in horrible conditions, are treated like animals and don't forget the thousands of American jobs that were putting food on the table for our children. I hope Hillary Clinton is just as experienced and smart as Bill because we really have it too good here and I think its about time we helped out some more filthy rich people in their quest to rule the world by enslaving us with the almighty dollar (or lack of dollars). My children don't need all the food they eat so its ok...Clinton 08!


It amazes me the amount of people that refuse to search out the reality of what is taking place in our country and continue to vote for the medias choice instead of the peoples choice. I wish everyone thats voting for some of these folks could see the future of our country and realize what their laziness and selfishness is going to do to our children's future. Why don't Americans think the constitution is a good thing, its like whatever their favorite candidate tells them to do ...they do without even giving it an in depth look? I guess you cant expect a sheep to have a brain like a person but maybe its for the best, long live the patriot act and whatever else they give us.

Oh and great job to all the sheep who continue to ruin my children's future because they don't want to see reality, they would rather sit in their little world and think that everything is fine because hey, this is America, we are free. :sarcasm:
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
17. IBM in India
Why? I worked with PhDs from India. They aren't smarter and certainly not harder working. They may be cheaper but you get what you pay for. They are the "special" in their society so everyone should wait on them.

As a woman I certainly didn't get much respect from them nor was I impressed.

We had a CETA worker educated in India who claimed he had a Masters degree in Chemistry. He didn't know what a peak absorbance curve was. His degree was probably a fraud. His wife claimed she was a nurse. The State of NY found out she lied about her experience and education. She was denied a NY State nursing license. Good luck doing business in such a corrupt society.

Yes..there is a huge population but most of them can't afford the product. Henry Ford would have told them this is bad business.

All those American company CEOs who have betrayed their country should go live there and try to have the same quality of life. Instead they live here and we pay for them to live like kings. They are criminals since they stole our markets, patents, and technology. Past and present workers get the shaft. There is corporate punishment for such robbery but states and the federal government aren't enforcing it. It's like they are in a coma.

Those CEOs should be jailed for robbery and treason. Instead they rape the company without accountability.

Where is that Corporate Accountability Act? Hidden in the WH somewhere? This administration is so corrupt and evil it's hard to think Congress just goes along with it. They have their wallets padded?

Hey IBM you are only what you have become because of American workers, consumers, investors, and technology. Now you turn your back on us for profit of the few. I won't buy anything of yours ever again.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. they SUCK
as someone who has to deal with India "expertise" every night at work I can say THEY SUCK!!!!!!!!! I know who got replaced and with what and there simply is no comparison - now we have skeleton crews in America who fix Inda messes - OFTEN. :puke:
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I Know How You Feel.... n/t
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. I particularly love it when
the H1B staff person says he'll get the information out to you right away... 3 hours, it never shows up.

Calling back the same organization and, by some hapless piece of luck, one gets a fluently English speaking guy. Give him the same information and *bam*, it arrives before the call ends.

I think more jobs will come back to America, at least until the fraud, piracy, and other messes in these countries (and the software they fucked up, like Windows Vista*) gets fixed. Give or take 10~20 years.

IBM execs probably went to this restaurant too:



* I have no hard evidence, only statements from Bill Gates saying he wants unlimited H1Bs, and the continual delays in Vista's deployment, and the problems people have had with it. (I've been fairly lucky, save for the WGA garbage - which would surely not be made operable by the same folks who'd be hurt the most by it, duh!! Indeed, when BitLocker wants to use a USB key for security and yet Vista's product protection schemes don't, you know there's something asinine going on behind the scenes...)
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. OH, don't even get me started, HYPNO
Edited on Sun Dec-16-07 09:13 PM by Skittles
they answer the phone HELLOOOO? HELLOOOOO? despite my repeated requests that they state the company name and greet in a professional matter.....I've had primary "on-calls" be two hours away from the PC - and the secondary is with him. I can't believe the shit they pull - they SUCK SUCK SUCK
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. So corporations are lying when they claim the cheaper work is better?
(that was rhetorical, of course)

Yes, they have a huge population. We didn't contribute to that problem either. Like piracy, why do our companies reward people who do things they deem bad?

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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
20. thanks for nothing, Bill Clinton
he just wouldn't shut up about how under NAFTA the manufacturing jobs would go, but be replaced in America with high-tech jobs. Well, the snake oil salesman never did explain that high tech jobs can be moved offshore, too. Oh, NAFTA did give us jobs, though. Every shitty low-paying Wal-Mart type job available under the sun can be found in America now. Thanks for nothing, Clinton.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. And the 55MPH speed limit rescinding...
Edited on Sun Dec-16-07 10:45 AM by HypnoToad
Not an environmentally sane thing to have done, and the irony a Republican* mandated the federal limit as means to curb energy usage is truly mind boggling...


* Richard Nixon no less...
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
28. India's Big Moment?
From all the reports I've heard of problematic products, the Big Moment will turn into a real Incontinental Bowel Movement soon enough...
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. India Business Machines
For now...


Italy?
Iran?
Iceland?
Iraq?
Indonesia?
Ireland?
Israel?

"We're not picky."
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
35. Got laid off twice from IBM
plus they underpay people with my skill set.

:P

I have absolutely no plans to ever work there again.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-17-07 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
39. How long before TATA owns our
tatas
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-17-07 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
40. Thanks for this thread. K&R. Too bad many DU'ers don't care. n/t
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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-17-07 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
41. Its ok were getting mangos!
Wow the neo-cons are trashing our future...
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-17-07 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
43. Hey, everyone, be sure to send the links to these videos to everyone you know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhLBSLLIhUs
Hillary pushes for more h1-b visas and outsourcing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLNOSGM2jK4
Lou Dobbs: Hillary Clinton's hypocrisy (part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgdrh2Bc95M
Lou Dobbs: Hillary Clinton's hypocrisy (part 2)
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