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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:10 PM
Original message
Climate change blamed as thousands of walruses die in stampedes
Source: Associated Press

Climate change blamed as thousands of walruses die in stampedes
By DAN JOLING
The Associated Press

ANCHORAGE, Alaska In what some scientists see as another alarming consequence of global warming, thousands of Pacific walruses above the Arctic Circle were killed in stampedes earlier this year after the disappearance of sea ice caused them to crowd onto the shoreline in extraordinary numbers.

The deaths took place during the late summer and fall on the Russian side of the Bering Strait, which separates Alaska from Russia.

"It was a pretty sobering year tough on walruses," said Joel Garlach-Miller, a walrus expert for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

Unlike seals, walruses cannot swim indefinitely. The giant, tusked mammals typically clamber onto the sea ice to rest, or haul themselves onto land for just a few weeks at a time.

But ice disappeared in the Chukchi Sea this year because of warm summer weather, ocean currents and persistent eastern winds, Garlach-Miller said.






Read more: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/20040...
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Now the walruses? The walruses????
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Rene Donating Member (758 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
62. What's the effect of the increase in ocean cruise liners and cargo ships....?
Do they cause excessive heat/discharge that affects the oceans temperature significantly; and nuclear plants output that discharge to the ocean....ours in CT appear to discharge water that's too hot.

All this polar melting seemed to start as the Alaskan cruise ships move in closer and closer to these ice fields...tourists 'had' to see the calving up close and now it's occurring significantly faster. I just saw a film about an adventure cruise that was cutting thru and breaking open lanes in the ice....how good can that be for the integrity of the ice cap.

Most communities now channel their sewer treatment thru the fastest water route that makes it to the ocean...water warmer than it should be.

All this can't be good for overall ocean temperatures.

I think the ice is melting from the temp of the water underneath and around....rather that the air above.
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #62
65. That is funny
There used to be ice there and no ships could go there. The ice melts and the ships start going there and now you blame the ships for melting the ice... :rofl: This is pretty close to Republican Logic..
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. 5-7 years until polar ice disappears in summer = extinction in the wildnerness
for walruses, polar bears, and many more...

FIVE TO SEVEN YEARS UNTIL POLAR ICE CAP DISAPPEARS IN SUMMER

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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Yes, these kinds of stories make me glad I don't have any children
I'd hate to have to explain these things to them.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Me, too. It's sad enough and difficult enough discussing it with my
age 20 and 23 nephew and niece.

When I was their age, the world seemed like it was only gonna get better. Now they have a world that seems like it's only gonna get worse.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Are they aware of Global Warming --- ??
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
66. Very much so. Very socially and environmentally aware, and
good left-leaning Dems all the way. My sis and BIL are the same, and raised them right.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #66
75. Here's the thing . . ..
I realized what was happening 20 years ago and my kids grew up knowing what was going on--
but now I think they resent it ---

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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
81. You and me both. I would have loved to have had kids, but I couldn't
bear knowing what kinds of hell awaited them as they grew older. Sometimes I wonder if children born today will live to see 30. :cry:
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. About the only way to avoid this is if we 100% stopped carbon emissions today
which will not happen. The destiny of those species that need polar ice to survive is now sealed. Realistically, nothing can change that at this late date.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. The only way to do it is to nationalize oil and put all ELECTRIC CARS on the roads in 5 yrs....
Edited on Fri Dec-14-07 07:30 PM by defendandprotect
We could subsidize both ends of this -- the manufacture of the cars and
the purchase of them ---

And in 5 years have all gas-guzzlers off the roads --

The thing you have to remember is that there's a 50 year delay in GW...
So we're now only up to feeling the effects of our behavior up to 1957 . . .

People are again quesitoning what effect nuclear testing and bombing may also have
had in creating GW . . .

Protests, if there are to be any meaningful ones, have to center on our consumer products --- use the car to protest --- pull it over --- everyone together for a period of time --
15 mins/half hour --- by curb or parking lot --- tap signal, everone moves on again.

Same way with other products --- stop buying bottled water --
keep $ out of the hands of corporations as much as possible.
Of course, the war is a big $$ maker for many warprofiteering corps.

Also, Australia has a "lights out" campaign for environment ---
Everyone puts their lights out for a period of time as a demonstration --

There has to be a "click" --- that requires a bit of leadership and a few voices ---






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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. Your thinking is right on target.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #37
49. And . . .
you keep moving that concept from product to product to see what you can do with it ---

Let me also recommend something that does harm to the planet and would be a very effective
move on the culture, on violence, and on corporates --

Vegetarianism

would make a huge impact --- a huge statement --

and be a tremendous help to the planet.


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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. the EV-1 would have been the life saver...nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. That's . . . "Who Killed The Electric Car?" .. . right? GREAT MOVIE ---
Everyone should see it --
Are you from California?

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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #50
60. Nope...
Im in/from Indiana...That film shows that the auto/oil industry, along with fuckhead bush..FUCKED US ALL.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #60
71. You know, FDR was going to nationalize our oil --- but he asked LBJ what he thought --- !!!

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leaninglib Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
63. An electric F-150 or SUV...? Yeah, that ought to work.
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #63
84. Yes, it would.
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leaninglib Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. That link is for a Ranger, not an F-150.
And the range is only 65 miles to a charge; then you must wait 6-8 hours for a re-charge. Moreover, at cost of $50,000, this little truck is very expensive golf cart.
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. The difference is only a matter of size. Making a bigger motor is no problem...
and with some investment in r&d, the battery technology will improve.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
64. I agree and will make one addendum on the time frame. Three years
instead of five.

We are now at that point!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #64
72. Wow!! Someone ahead of me --- and I agree on the time ....
We'd probably have to raise a corp to do this because I kinda get the idea that Detroit is actually not working to make cars but working for the oil industry to make gas-guzzlers!!

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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. We have to suck the carbon out of the atmosphere...
and you are probably right that the fate of such species is already sealed. Still we must react as if we have half a chance of saving them in order to have any chance of saving enough ecological diversity to keep this planet recognizable.
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. One estimate says we have to remove 350 gigatons of carbon...
...to return to 1950s levels of radiative forcing.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #27
74. There was a lot of talk in Britian about petro and airplanes . . .
don't think that discussion reached here ---
but unless it was on KO, I don't see it.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #27
76. Gigaton = 1 BILLION TONS ---
X350 -

350 Billion tons . . .

hmmm.....
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #76
80. Yup. That's a lot of carbon
Probably a mountain range worth. We'd better get on it...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #25
73. Obviously, even up to just 1957, we had already created an immense problem . . .
and I say that cause there is a 50 year delay in the effects we feel ---
so you can imagine where we'll be shortly as we hit post-1957!!!

Unfortunately, the carbon isn't simply in the atmosphere --- it's in our trees,
in our soil -- and it's presence distorts nature. Trees are dying because of the
industrial revolution --- they knew this is the mid-1880's and possibly before that.

Mother Nature didn't intend for us to be industrious --- !!!

Life is about pleasure ---

but not for almost 7 billion of us!!

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. Yeah . . . but look at all we've gotten for that trade off of nature --- !!!
We've gotten to run around in cars -- keep gas stations and mechanics in business --
go to malls and shop ---
Live in suburbs ---

Fill houses with all kinds of goodies --

:sarcasm:

What we lost was immense ---
true freedom --
probably soon death of our own species ---
and the planet . .. possibly!




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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. Driving our cars whenever we want, going wherever we want,
that's the whole point of things like ethanol. We're hooked on our drug of choice, oil, and we want any drug that will allow us to maintain our current type of lifestyle and high with a minimum of changes instead of altering the whole dynamic. We'll do anything, anything, as long as it allows us to continue driving, driving, driving.
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wundermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
42. Global Warming "Tipping Points" Reached, Scientist Says
"Earth has already crossed a number of climate change "tipping points" at which today's levels of greenhouse gases will cause additional large and rapid changes, a leading climate scientist said yesterday."

- http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071214-...
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sigh.
Edited on Fri Dec-14-07 06:35 PM by AllieB
:cry:

How can the US continue to do nothing?
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. ahhh poor things.
Look what we've done.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. K&R. (nt)
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. This is just heartbreaking...
I never expected to be alive for planetary mass deaths. It used to be the stuff of science fiction -- imaginings of dystopia, sometime in the far future.

What have we wrought?

:cry:
sw
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Yup, looks like Soylent Green was the most prescient dystopian prediction in cinema
"The oceans -- they're dying!" -- Charlton Heston
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Get used to it -- this is just the beginning
Wait until the real mass deaths get going...including mass migrations of millions of humans fleeing climate change...

Ooh, I'm feeling particularly gloomy today!
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. Here's a mantra we should chant from someone who cared:
Everybody now!

"I am the walrus"
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. We're all walruses...
--IMM
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. K&R :-(.nt
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laylah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. What can I say...
so very, very sad :cry: I remember platypus's went extinct in my time. A sad thing for all living things.
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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Platypus' went extinct?
That's news to me. I thought it was a protected species and not under immediate threat.
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DRoseDARs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. Platypus extinct? Er, not so much...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus

Conservation status

Except for its loss from the state of South Australia, the Platypus occupies the same general distribution as it did prior to European settlement of Australia. However, local changes and fragmentation of distribution due to human modification of its habitat are documented. Its current and historical abundance, however, is less well known and it has probably declined in numbers, although still being considered as common over most of its current range.
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. Platypus, Platypi... It doesn't matter... I total understand your
Frustration maybe you meant the Baiji (Chinese Freshwater Dolphin) the point is things are becoming extinct because Man is killing the planet.
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laylah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #33
59. I stand corrected...
I have always been under the impression it was the platypus but obviously, that childhood impression was wrong :blush:
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
17. very sad
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
18. My girlfriend's family lives North of the Circle (Norway)
They are a nomadic family of reindeer herders, living in skin huts and living the same life they have led for countless generations, very traditional. But this is the end of that kind of life.

The stories they tell will make you weep.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
36. Tom - Can you write the stories down & post them?
It is so, so important for us to hear the indigenous people right now.

:(
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. I will try to get Torrild to write some of them.
Problem is, she cannot spell worth a shit.

"Torrild", in Laplander, means Goddess of Thunder. And she is every bit of that.

You would just not believe the history of these people and the hardships that they are suffering. And they are totally unprepared.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. She could talk and you could type - or - videotape her telling her stories
and post them on Youtube. The only way that people will take the necessary action is when we feel as if we intimately know the people whose lives are being devastated now. I think it was Gandhi who said that the world will truly be one when we feel the death of a child in India as acutely as we feel the death of a child in our own town - we've got to make the people's of the world more interconnected, quickly!
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
21. We lost seven years on the future of the walruses and us because
Edited on Fri Dec-14-07 07:29 PM by higher class
of the profiteers who get deniers and politicians to do their bidding. Weren't the first two acts of Cheney-Bush related to canceling environmental agreements? And the third was setting up plans to own Iraq and its oil with their energy folks?
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Peregrine Took Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
24. We need photos - that's the only way to communicate with the non-reading
public. Tons of photos and the more graphic the better. Ordinary people won't believe this is happening until they see it with their own eyes.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. I agree.
That's the only thing that would get their attention.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
26. Very disheartening
We must protect these animals. To those lurking freepers and global warming apologists who are saying they are just animals, we must show our children that we respect all life, especially the life of such mammals as the walrus. And to those that say mass extinctions are a normal cyclical event that has occurred for millenia, I agree but the difference is how responsible we are for this because of our unbridled use of fossil fuels! There is a huge difference. We must act!
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
28. I just rented and watched "Arctic Tale" from Blockbuster tonight...
Edited on Fri Dec-14-07 08:13 PM by Mr_Jefferson_24
... and it's terribly sad what global warming is doing to arctic wildlife. Polar bears and walrus are going to face massive die offs.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #28
51. Was that recently in movie theaters --- ?
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #51
58. It probably was...
...I don't see movies at theaters much anymore -- I'm not sure how widely it was distributed:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0488508 /

Here's the trailer:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-xNclqD6Br4&feature=related

It was well done.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #58
77. Thanks -- I probably go to two movies a year --- sometimes one if there's no MM movie!!!
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navarth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. The Fucking Horror of it
Once again,

I experience an overwhelming feeling of utter shame. We sin against nature so horribly; I ask myself on a regular basis: does humanity even deserve to survive anymore? If we still do, how far do we go until we don't deserve to survive? Are we there already? If not, how close are we?

It's a question that I have to answer for myself over and over. Shame on us. All of us. Shame. Our unsustainable lifestyle makes murderers of us all.

The Polar Bears, Walruses, the disappearing wilderness, the dead deer on the side of the freeway...they all feel to me like Man has committed one more sin against nature.

What's America's responsibility in all this? We should be setting an example of ingenuity, courage, sacrifice, foresightedness....what are the chances us doing that?
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. NONE...
With our current batch of inept politicians running this country and the world into corporate chaos... Facism eists as expansion of the corporate world and its dominance on pepople it cares little about its effect on the environment and then someday they wake to realize that the damage that has been done cannot be undone and the earth begins to rot and humanity follows like a necrosis of our souls...

I too want no part of that kind of future..
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #31
52. Yes, it is us -- however, people knew about this when JF K was president . . .
Edited on Sat Dec-15-07 02:56 AM by defendandprotect
we began to move and could have responded ---

And, what followed was really, IMO, an oil industry led conspiracy to keep the public in the dark -- so that those few could continue to profit from what is our natural resource.

We should nationalize oil now --

Btw, the Democratic Platform which JFK ran on called for the nationalizing of the
US oil industry ---


And, ExxonMobil --- still now alone, mainly --- but over decades coupled with BP and others ran a propaganda campaign --- of tens of millions of dollars --- in order to deny, lie,
distort GW information and keep public dumb --- and govt non-responding.





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jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
32. We're hooked on oil man...We're hooked on oil man...
We kill the walrus,
goo goo g'joob, goo goo goo g'joob, goo goo g'joob, goo goo goo g'joob, goo goo

I'm crying.
I'm cry------------ing, I'm crying....

:puke:
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
35. We have to constuct giant floats for them to rest. It's the only thing to do, right?
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Sounds like an excellent idea.
I hope you are right.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #35
53. It's so obvious what you're saying . . . yet, is anyone even trying to help them?
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Aviation Pro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
43. Farewell, Goo-Goo-Gajoob....
....hopefully this walrus was part of the stampede.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #43
54. There's a sociopath if I ever saw one ---
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
44. I was debating a conservative today
on global warming. He managed to rip on Al Gore (for not going far enough) and at the time rip on those who want to go too far.

This was my response:

That's another fictional lose-lose situation I've seen presented by those that deny man-made global warming.

Let's see...on the one hand you have that damn hypocrite Al Gore, who *talks* tough about global warming but lives in a BIG house, sometimes eats meat, and flies in planes.

We should ignore the science he presents because he hasn't transformed into a luddite hermit.

On the OTHER hand, we should also ignore global warming promoters because they apparently want all of us to eliminate any and all modern conveniences to become cave dwellers that ride around on horses (aka, luddites).

In other words, yet another false dichotomty, i.e. we either do NOTHING about global warming OR we go all out and live in caves and eat grubs and berries.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. On the plus side...
...we won't have Dennis Hastert around anymore.
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Kool Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Isn't it bad enough that
the walruses are facing extinction, must they also be insulted? ;)
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danhan Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. The problem
I am going to get flamed here for this especially because I don't often post and people think you must not care if you don't post all the time. However, I have been on here almost every day for a year and a half. I just choose not to engage so much.

That being said, I believe that Al Gore is the biggest fucking hypocrite that ever walked the planet. When he starts showing up on a horse for his $100,000 speaking engagements I might start taking him seriously.

If we all stopped driving cars or every country followed the Kyoto treaty to reduce carbon emmissions it would make no measurable difference in global warming. All it would take is one belch from a volcano, (not even an eruption) to negate anything that humans could do to reduce carbon emmisions.

We need real fucking solutions to this. Not all this jack jawed political "oh my god we're gonna die" crap.
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. We're all gonna die crap?
I missed that part, but then again I saw Inconvenient Truth in the theater. I guess the crap you're referring to is on the director's cut DVD.

As for action: http://www.climatecrisis.net/takeaction /

If your nutritionist/doctor was grossly obese (but had a PhD in nutrition and biochemistry) and admitted he didn't follow his own advice, would you ignore him if he told you how to eat and exercise to look and feel better and live longer (assuming you wanted to achieve those goals)?

In other words, I care about the quality of the information in this case, not the personal habits of the messenger. I realize the quality of the messenger IS more important in some cases, like if you're a church leader preaching about homosexuality or something (because he/she is a *moral* authority rather than a scientific authority).

But this is about science, and you can look past the messenger (and read the message for yourself, as written by scientists). If the scientists drive giant SUV's and ride around in private jets, so what, maybe they're lazy and selfish (a lot of people know how they *should* behave but choose not to)...does that really give me an excuse to contribute to potentially screwing the planet for myself and future generations?

Don't get me wrong, blatant hypocrisy is a bad thing and people should expect to take their lumps for it.

But *unless* these people move into caves, they won't meet the ridiculous, luddite-like requirements that would satisfy the incredibly (and often intentionally) unrealistic expectations of some.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #47
56. What Gore needs to do is suggest we nationalize oil and put all ELECTRIC CARS on our roads --- !!
lightbulbs ain't gonna do it, folks!

We can subsidize both ends --- mfg and purchase ---

THAT would make a difference ---

And if you truly care about the planet --- go Veggie --- Vegan if you can ---

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #47
57. What Gore needs to do is suggest we nationalize oil and put all ELECTRIC CARS on our roads --- !!
lightbulbs ain't gonna do it, folks!

We can subsidize both ends --- mfg and purchase ---

THAT would make a difference ---

And if you truly care about the planet --- go Veggie --- Vegan if you can ---

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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #57
68. electric cars run on nationalized oil ?
how about nationalize the auto industry and build electric cars for export to China?

lol
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #68
78. How about nationalizing ALL our natural resources and taking them back from the few who profit?
Who have propagandized over decades lying about GW ---

and heavens knows what else they've done --

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #47
61. No, volcanic carbon dioxide is dwarfed by human emissions
Carbon dioxide is abundant in volcanic gases, but not enough to significantly contribute to the greenhouse effect. Volcanoes contribute about 110 million tons of carbon dioxide per year while man's activities contribute about 10 billion tons per year.

http://volcanology.geol.ucsb.edu/gas.htm
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #61
69. Not only that, but volcanic dust and soot usuually COOLS the atmosphere
The warming effects of the relatively small amount of CO2 released by volcanoes is outweighed by the cooling effects associated with the injection of dust into the atmosphere, blocking solar radiation from reaching the ground.
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #47
86. I can see why you "choose not to engage so much"
Here's a clue-bus ticket especially for you!

http://www.realclimate.org
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #44
55. What it takes to get the news to them that their not-man-made issue is dead is hard to figure!!!
I just had a go round with a really weird new relative by marriage!!!

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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #44
82. That's the kind of B.S. you get from anyone who doesn't want to
seriously deal with an issue. They try to kill the debate with extremes, making the debate itself look absurd. Look at the Edwards big house debate; many people engaged in that one stated that the choice was between living in a 28,000 sq ft. mansion OR living in a one room shack with an outhouse. No middle ground. We all need to do what we CAN do, and Gore is doing that as well.His home is now one of the greenest in TN. Asking people to live in caves and eat berries is completely illogical and thus he's trying to make the other side look like utter fools. We need to keep hammering away at these people with the facts: giving tax breaks to people who buy Hummers and corporations who send our jobs to eco-unfriendly countries like China is killing us faster.Real solutions exist, but the political will to implement them is still lacking. The sick part of it all is that making the necessary changes would help every American to live better in the end, but the big corporations aren't willing to sacrifice short term profits for them.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
67. (meanwhile) Passenger jet lands on ice runway in Antarctica
one small step for scientists

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=979_1197616395

One giant leap to make it a profitable venture......

oh, but they will only be "eco tourists" ;)
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Santa's relocating before his workshop melts into the sea. n/t
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cloudythescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 03:18 AM
Response to Original message
79. So WHO is going to push for net NEGATIVE CO2 emissions????
In addition to curbing virtually all industrial based CO2 emissions, humanity needs to INCREASE the total forestation of the planet and build a huge number of giant filters to filter out greenhouse gases from the atmosphere

And we need to do this LONG before 2050!

HMMMMM????
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humus Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
83. Bring It All Back Home
"A few years ago, in the mail-order catalog Seeds of Change, Peter
Bahouth provided an ecological accounting of the typical North
American supermarket-bought tomato. Here's an abbreviated version:
The tomato was grown in Mexico from a hybrid seed patented by a
genetic-engineering firm. The farm was fumigated with methyl-
bromide, one of the most ozone-depleting chemicals in existence, the
doused with toxic pesticides; the toxic byproducts of manufacturing
the pesticide ended up in the world's largest toxic waste dump, in
Alabama. The tomato was packaged in a plastic tray covered with
plastic wrap, and placed on a cardboard box. The plastic was
manufactured with chlorine, a process that produces extremely toxic
byproducts, in Point Comfort, Texas, while the cardboard originated
in an old-growth forest in British Columbia, was manufactured in the
Great Lakes, and was then shipped to the Mexican farm. The entire
process was fueled by oil from the Gulf of Campeche, Mexico. The
packed tomatoes were artificially ripened through the application of
ethylene, then transported in refrigerated trucks cooled by ozone-
depleting hydrochlorofluorocarbons to consumers throughout North
America. At several points in the process, workers and nearby
residents risked potentially harmful health effects through exposure
to various toxins. And needless to say, a tomato thus produced
doesn't offer much in the way of flavor, especially when compared to
a mouth-watering `Brandywine' tomato grown organically in the
backyard."

To forget how to dig the earth and to tend the soil is to forget ourselves
-Mahatma Gandhi
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Rosie1223 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-17-07 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
88. 'Walrus' and 'Stampede' -- 2 words I never thought I'd hear in the same sentence.
Global warming has all kinds of unexpected consequences.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-17-07 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
89. Kicked, too late to recommend.
Thanks for the thread, Barrett.
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