Dropping dollar cramps the style of Americans abroad

[UpInArms]

Source: Los Angeles Times via the Boston Globe

LONDON - Karla Keating and her husband had retirement on their minds in May when they got what they considered an offer too good to refuse: a three-year stint in London.

Coming from North Carolina, they knew it was going to be a bit of a financial leap. But the major US bank where her husband is an executive lured him with a 33 percent increase in pay. Within weeks, they had crossed the ocean and found a nice flat near Marylebone for 1,820 pounds - about $3,750.

"The estate agent told me the price, and I said OK, I guess that's kind of comparable to prices around Europe. And he said, 'That's the price per week,' " Keating recalls. Since then, it's been all downhill.

The iPod Nanos for the children cost 99 pounds apiece (about $204), compared with $149 in the United States. Keating's six-Diet Coke-a-day habit got shaved quickly to one, at $2 a can. They sit at the end of the day on their small balcony overlooking Great Portland Street, and her husband smiles (sort of) and says, "Here's your $12 glass of wine."

"When I got here I was like a deer in headlights. I was just, 'Oh my God' about everything," Keating said. "We figured out that with the increasingly weakening dollar, in reality he is making less than he was making 20 years ago."

Read more: http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2007/12/09/dropping_dollar_cramps_the_style_of_americans_abroad/

[EV_Ares]

1. I wonder about our military and civilians working on the military bases

over in Europe. That has got to be rough as well. Of course the military who live on base, get a break but still, not an easy go with the falling dollar.

[robinlynne]

23. They have PX stores,and buy everything much cheaper than home.

Everything is tax free, and even without that the prices are somewhat paid for with govt funds. Things are 30-50% less than they would be at home.

[14thColony]

73. Well not quite...

The reality is foodstuffs are at best comparable in price to US grocery stores, although the much higher shipping costs of moving stock overseas does get passed on to us, and with fuel prices rising the prices at the commissaries overseas are going up quickly as well. The BXs/PXs have decent prices (equivalent to Pennys roughly), but you can be a victim of the location lottery - smaller bases have smaller BXs/PXs with less stuff. I'm at a ghost town of a base in rural England about 70 miles north of London; up here you end up having to get a lot of things locally, and you pay the price. And while we can buy subsidised gas on base, it's still about $3.60 a gallon as of today. Of course that's way better then what the Brits pay, but as soon as I'm out of range of a base I'm right there at the local Shell station buying petrol at $8.17/gal as of today.

[flygal]

78. Do they encourage Americans to not bring huge SUV's over to Europe?

I live in Germany and see lots of large SUV's with the US plates. My first thought is how do park in these small spots - not to mention backing out? But the gas prices would be a deterrent also. Is there any encouragement to have soldiers bring over smaller vehicles?

As an expat over here I have some envy for the military - I would love to have commissary and exchange access :)

[14thColony]

79. They don't seem to

tell anyone specifically that American mega-SUVs don't work well over here, so I do see Suburbans and even Excursions, and wonder a) where on Earth do they park and b) how can they afford the gas. One person here even had a Ford F350 with the double wheels on the back - his truck was wider than his lane. Of course, this is the land of the Range Rover, so large SUVs are not as uncommon here as in Germany (I lived in Germany for four years as well).

You may not think so, but even being an expat in Germany you're probably doing reasonably well compared to Brits I would hazard to guess. When I go on business nowadays to Germany the prices I encounter for meals and in shops seems laughably cheap even compared to rural England, let alone London. This is one bloody expensive country.

[JBoy]

2. My first thought -

Americans abroad have style?

[HooptieWagon]

5. Or cramps...

but definately one of the two...

[comtec]

7. Byte me!

Thankfully I'm being paid in Euros.
Many many things I, and other Expats miss from home... like shopping on Sundays lol.
The freedoms here are.. um... limited, but it's pretty out in the open about what you're not supposed to do.
There is also no private surveillance (yet) here in Holland, like there is in the UK (officially there isn't any but please, a camera on every fucking corner!)

The reality is people who travel (and very especially) and live abroad hae more style, or at least are more open minded.

I look back at how I was - had a friend visit, and I was horrified by how he acted... exactly like I did 10 years ago). Living here has really mellowed me.

The worst part is sometimes admitting being American (that is from the States, as American is 2 continents and a penninsula), with all teh crap *co has done.

I hate defending * in any way, and I'm always torn between my pride as an American, and the sad reality of what our great country has degraded into (I'm looking at you congress critters!)

In my language and immigration lessons I have gotten to know Iraqis and Afghanis citizens rather well, and I can not tell you the shame I feel hearing their stories. I know it's not my fault, they know it, and they appreciate it's just the nutter in power (having lived under a dictator it's the guy at the top, not the flunkies, and NOT the citizens, who are responsible) they understand... but it still hurts like hell.

What's worse, is all my dollars in my US accounts are basically worthless here now. The exchange rate is RAPIDLY approaching 1.50+ and with Iran saying over the weekend they are now dealing in Euros only (and Yen) the Dollar will probably drop even more Monday Morning.

[MattSh]

56. Thank you...

You don't have to spend time abroad to have style, but just about everyone who has been abroad has a lot of it.

[clixtox]

11. Escaping from the hub...

of the "axis of evil", even for a vacation, is worth the added expense of paying in another currency elsewhere.

The dollar sucks because it has been devalued by the printing of vast quantities of additional dollars out of thin air to finance our consumption and illegal military invasions and occupation not to mention corruption, graft and outright theft.

Most Amerikkkans are notable for their complete absence of individual style. We don't dare show individuality because of the overwhelming peer pressure to conform, to be just like everyone else. IMHO most of us have been conditioned to be at least suspicious, if not angered, by those who don't conform to the images portrayed in the media.

As in Nazi Germany, we are being groomed to be "good Americans", who toe the line and stay silent and probably ignorant. A virtue today in the US culture.

Work like ants, consume like millionaires and in debt over our heads, like our irresponsible government is right now.

[ananda]

47. Ignorance must be bliss.

Makes me kinda envious..

but truth and reality are better, I think.

[Chulanowa]

54. That, and we have nothing to back it with

We are now a "service economy," or so I have heard. We produce far, far less than we import. We mangle our labor and replace what's left with technology so there is actually less work to be had and less protection for what work there is. Basically, our economy is dependent on foreign production and labor. We give them dollars, but what can they use those dollars for in turn? There's few American goods to buy, few Americans to employ. They can shuffle the dollars around the globe, but as the dollar spreads thicker, while American productivity continues to drop, the greenback is going to be worth exactly as much as the rag pulp it's printed on.

Don't buy the "We need a gold standard / printing money makes it worth less!" bull. Work and production are the core of every modern economy, and we have gutted both in America, much to the short-term enrichment of the very people telling us that the problem is inflation, or a lack of a gold standard.

[Ediacara]

61. The value of the dollar has nothing to do with printing too many dollars....

[clixtox]

89. How Counter-Intuitive!

I have always believed that the more of something there is, easily available, that is needed or wanted, the less value each something has, the value decreases, especially if there is a glut of whatever.

Conversely, and easier to visualize, if there are fewer of something that people need or want the value of that something will rise, especially if there is a shortage of whatever.

How is that incorrect or is the US dollar somehow immune, or an exception to this basic economic theory?

"Fiat" currencies are as valuable as the market for them makes them. They, including the US dollar, have no intrinsic value other than as scraps of exotic paper and no monetary value beyond what faith and hope allow.

I hope that it isn't my ignorance showing, but I am open to learning more about this important subject, educate me please...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

69. Yes, it's very refreshing to get out of the country once in a while

:-)

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

34. British tourists on the continent have a similar reputation.

Actually, British tourists have surpassed Americans on the shit list in most continental European countries. They have a rather unsavory reputation for being drunken, belligerent asshats. It is a reputation that, in my experience, is not entirely undeserved.

[MADem]

62. Asshats, who, in countries like Italy, where the food is just...everything, demand

their egg and fucking chips! With a menu loaded with all sorts of delcious dishes, that was the desired meal.

I had to explain that to a waiter in Italy once, what the bozos at the next table wanted. I WINCED as I was translating, and he WINCED at having to tell the chef.

I actually apologized for them! What else was there to do?

I've run into them in Spain as well--they really don't know how to 'blend' at all, do they?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

80. I was in Barcelona a couple of years ago...

...with an American friend of mine who doesn't live in the UK. We're walking back to the hotel, and we see this group of teenage/20-something guys milling around, pointedly not looking at each other or anything else in particular.

"Look," I said, "British tourists."

"How do you know?" she asked me.

"The shoes. Look at their shoes."

White trainers, all of them. And I was right.

Fortunately, most of Italy still doesn't seem to be on the British tourist map. I was in Milan and Tuscany earlier this year, and it hasn't been Amsterdam-ified yet.

[MADem]

81. They like Rome and Tuscany for some reason. You'll find pockets of 'em in

Sorrento every so often as well! You see Germans around Formia and Mondragone, for some reason...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

85. I saw very few Brits in Tuscany.

Actually, I saw very few non-Italians in Tuscany, but I think that had a lot to do with when we were there (end of the season) and the fact that we had a car, thus allowing us access to a lot of places without a train station. I suspect you don't get a lot of British tourists in those areas because they're terrified of driving in Italy.

[MADem]

90. High season=CRAWLING!!!

At least a few years back. I think it was blowback from some film that was big at the time, that showed the region in a very lovely light.

[Harmonicaman]

3. $2 for a can of coke ??

I get six for just a little bit more than $2 in a supermarket, as could they if they hadn't wanted a place to live on a snob block

and as for paying $3750 a week for a flat - I pay half that per **month** on a mortgage payment on a 4 bedroom house with a 5 acre garden.

Though I do live "up north"

and I do like buying ny dvd's etc from amazon at half price thanks to the $$ - for which I suppose I should thank bushco.

thanks george - and happy holidays...

for the rest of you

Sorry guys, not long to go now.

theres a base with US serviceman about 10 miles from where I live, and US servicemen and their families shop in the supermarkets just like everybody else. London prices are just batshit - its the ripoff capital of the world

[MADem]

14. London prices were batshit when I lived there, too, and that was awhile ago.

Thirty dollar pizzas!!

[Red Zelda]

45. I lived on Twiglets

...and Guinness.

[MADem]

60. I lived in the country. We did a lot of cooking from scratch. That helped.

Rents were cheaper, too. Those London rents are asinine, and just not worth it, are they?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

26. £1 for a bottle of coke is pushing it...

...but that's probably what you'll pay at the newsagents in that part of London. It is insane. It's different up north. I wish I didn't have to deal with this crap. Hell, I live in Cambridge and we're slowly but surely being sucked into the London commuter belt, with all the attendant price increases.

[pimpbot]

33. Menwith Hill?

I found it is still kind of pricey even up north... 3 pounds for a pint of beer (and thats the cheap stuff)!

[terisan]

4. Now if we can only lure the Europeans here (whom Bush has alienated) to buy up our foreclosures nt

[HooptieWagon]

8. only problem with that

is that it could lead to housing price escalations during a time of stagnant or lowering wages. Working Americans may get priced out of the housing market - or may have to give up on health insurance, etc, in order to have a roof over their heads.

[terisan]

10. Good point. Any downside to just encouraging tourism? nt

[MADem]

63. The Canadians are doing a little of that in and near holiday destinations NT

[tabasco]

6. Oh But the reich-wingers tell us how great it is that the dollar is so low!

Limbaugh tells them it is part of the brilliant MBA President's plan.

All of those US products are so much cheaper overseas, they say.

They say it will cause a humongous job growth here in the US!

Any day now, any day. You betcha.

[comtec]

9. actually wth few exceptions the prices are the same

example, Sony sells the PS3 here for 499 and 399 respectively
They sell the same units (NTSC though) for 499 and 399 usd... however that will probably change soon as the dollar continues to go down like a girl on prom night (or boy).

[DLnyc]

20. Other things being equal, a weak dollar makes goods imported into US more

expensive and makes US goods cheaper overseas.

A 1 euro item used to cost about a dollar US. Now it costs like $1.46 US.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=EURUSD=X&t=5y

On the other hand, other things being equal, a weak dollar ALSO pushes prices of exports UP: An item that sells in Europe for a euro used to only bring the US seller $1. Now it will bring a US seller about $1.46.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=USDEUR=X&t=5y

So, in general, a weak dollar makes it harder for the US to import and easier for it to export. So this would be 'good for business' for some companies which are able to increase their export trade. But there are a couple of catches:

1. Companies that rely on imported products (like oil, for example) are gonna suffer higher costs.
2. As imports get more expensive, and as US sellers can make more money by exporting, it can be expected that US prices are gonna start going up (inflation).
3. As US dollar begins to look like it may stay weak in the future, it becomes less attractive for foreigners to buy US Treasury Bonds (since they will be paid back in relatively less valuable dollars). Then the US would need to either pay higher interest rates to service/roll over its debt or (don't hold your breath) stop overspending. Either of these tend to stifle business.

I don't think you need to be an MBA/economics expert (I'm certainly not) to see that:
1. A weak dollar is a short-term boost but long-term disaster for the US economy.
2. Government investment in infrastructure, education, alternative energy (instead of pointless wars) could prime the economy in a healthy way, but won't be done until the pain outweighs the fear of 'socialism', the way it did after 1929.

iMHO. And apologies if no one is really that interested in my thoughts here.

[MADem]

64. It keeps Americans at home. Travel now is onerous, even if you're on an expense account.

You're not staying in the nice hotel, you're staying in the foreign equivalent of Motel Six.

[flyarm]

12. actually in the resort town i live in fla..i was just talking to an real estate gal

and she told me the only ones buying right now are europeans ...on the beach..and they aren't even the rich europeans!!..and they are coming in with lots of cash!

and i was just in London two weeks ago..it is really almost cost prohibative for Americans..and the Brits keep saying they feel sorry for us!!

even eating at a Pub is expensive!

for us..

forget shopping..its out of the question.

so sad...

in our dollar it cost more than $200.00 each way for a cab from the airport!!

fly

[Mnemosyne]

38. Get the wheelbarrow ready, fly.

If it's happening overseas now, how long do you suppose until we get creamed financially?

[hedgehog]

13. A European my husband works with did all his Christmas shopping

at a local mall. I asked what he was buying. It was all Chinese stuff, clothing and electronics. WHen he converted his euros to dollars, the prices were way cheaper than in Europe for the same items.

[MADem]

15. Count on meeting a LOT more Europeans so long as the Euro-Dollar rate continues in this fashion.

Instead of holidaying in Spain or Greece, they'll be off to Florida and giggling giddily over the cheap prices!

[hedgehog]

17. Stay with me here, I think this is how this works.

A Chinese made item costs 3 euros in Europe, so it would cost me $7.50 if I bought that item in Paris. But the exact same item might retail in the US for $5. The Chinese are still more intersted in getting hold of dollars than Euros. The real bite comes when they change their minds.

[MADem]

59. I understand what you're saying, but no. And here's why (this is a 'stay with me' as well)

In the US, our Food and Drug Administration efforts are a joke, as are all of our Consumer Product Safety efforts. In Europe, they have not only state-sponsored checks on goods, but also Europe-wide standards.

This is why those brand new Chinese-manufactured, incredibly pricey-looking kitchen cabinets that idiots get over here for WAY less than they thought they'd cost (ooooh, they're so cooooool, and NEEEEW!!!) give off noxious fumes that make people sick--they're treated with MORE formaldehyde than is acceptable in Europe...in fact, they're treated with more formaldehyde than is acceptable in CHINA!!! But hey...they're CHEEEEEAP!!!

Same way with alot of the "neat" Chinese stuff over here--they think it's swell, because they don't see it--their governments don't even allow it in, because it's lead-laced, poisoned crap!

Actually, the things they really like are the electronics--they don't have to pay those onerous VATS and what have you, which is why an iPod is double the cost there than it is over here.

The problem with some of the offerings, though, like the video game platforms, is that one needs an NTSC television (or one that flips from one to the other--I have several of those) in order to use your stateside-purchased XBOX or whatever. And then, you have to worry about the games, because a game bought over there won't work in a US brand XBox. Neither will US DVDs.

In the big scheme, though, they can't believe the prices. Imagine you being able to go to a sunny place in the dead of winter, rent a hotel room for thirty bucks a day, and have a rental car for a hundred bucks a week. That's about what it feels like to them. It's just a massive bargain right now.

And that's actually good--the only way we'll get our economic ship of state righted is if we have some of that foreign money flowing IN, instead of all of our cash flowing OUT.

The first thing the new American Democratic president ought to do is target some of these 'high value currency' countries with a charming tourism campaign....there's more than one way to win a war!

[MattSh]

57. If they don't mind..

being treated as a common criminal or Al-queda at the airport, that is.

[MADem]

58. Oh, the fat freckled white ones with the adorable lower-class accents will be

treated as heroes. They're familiar, you see, they sell us shit on late-night tee vee.

[Historic NY]

16. I feel like a prisoner..............

The dollar is worth crap and living on a pension makes it even more difficult to travel to England and Ireland, where I really want to be. I even checked on my old college International Studies and YIKEs its off the wall to audit an overseas course. I'm stuck again another year. I miss my friends and haunts over there. Oh well there is always Canada and Quebec.

[enid602]

18. Nowhere to run

Not really, because the USD has lost 50% of its value to the Canadian Dollar during Bushco.

[MADem]

65. The Canadian dollar is now worth more than ours, too. No bargains up north.

They're coming to Maine to buy hunting camps, and to Cape Cod to buy cottages. It's bargain time..!

We are prisoners. A flaccid dollar keeps the tourists at home. It's why, in the dead of fucking winter, those of us up north are seeing ads for Tennessee as a vacation destination--because we can't afford Spain.

[whistle]

19. Well, the Federal Reserve is dumping hundreds of billions of dollars

...into the money supply to bail out hedge fund speculators while countries around the world are unloading their dollars they have been holding back, so naturally the U.S. dollar will be worth less. Earlier today $100.00 US would buy only 68.23 Euros

[harmonicon]

21. True, but why is this a big story only now?

I remember thinking that this story should have been huge in the 2004 elections. Then the Euro had gone from being worth less than $.90 to $1.20 or so. Now it's just crazy. I was in the Czech Republic for a few months this summer for the first time since '99. Prices there had effectively gone up 200 - 400% since my last trip! Part of it was that the country has taken off since they became EU, but the exchange rate was a big part of it two. 1999 exchange rate was about $1 = 30ck, now it's $1 = 18ck, a big difference.

Thank god I'm now living in England (since October) and being paid in pounds. At first it seemed like lots of money (well, lots of money to someone who'd been working for $7/hr in the US), but prices are so much higher here, I'm still very poor by UK standards. I don't go out for coffee at cafes, for instance, like I would in the US, because a coffee might cost $4 here. Even fast food is twice the price. That said, now I don't have a car and can do all my shopping on foot, etc. which isn't possible in much of the US. The downside to not having a car is that train travel is prohibitively expensive, so I can't make quick weekend trips to other cities like I would back home. Such is life... taking the rough with the smooth.

[tom_paine]

30. A lot of stories should have been huge in 2004. Welcome to the Iron Curtain of Amerika.

Oh, it's kinder and genlter than Iron Curtains of old, and ours is Televised Iron rather than Iron, if you catch my meaning.

But the results are the same as if beetle-browed KGB Men were standing behind each individual journalist with a gun to the backs of their heads.

Amazing to watch. However, when viewing Imperial Amerika MSM-Infoganda, one should always remember than, morally and product-wise, Amerikan MSM is so identical to Soviet MSM, but with celeb news and hot blonde bimbo anchorettes.

You made it out of here to the Free World?

God Bless You. I would rather live in poverty and be free, than live like the Richest Amerikan Imperial Subject.

With the Bushies in charge now and likely (even IF Empress Clinton is allowed to ascend the throne next year) until the old USA is cored like an apple, I will likely get to experience both at the same time in the future.

[boricua79]

22. cramps the style?

screw Americans...serves them right for NOT PAYING ATTENTION to how they're country is totally wasting its resources on corrupt, corporate warfare in the world. Maybe this "cramp" will wake them up (don't hold your breath).

[Maven]

24. Oh, c'mon

What kind of lifestyle are they maintaining that they're living in an almost 10,000 £/mo. flat?

I have friends who live in London, in decent neighborhoods, and don't pay nearly that much. I think the premise of the article is well taken, but to use this banking exec as an example is misleading.

[PaulaFarrell]

25. This story is kind of crap

Where on earth do they shop, Harrods? You can go to any supermarket in London and get a bottle of wine for less than £6 and only an idiot would pay £1 for a can of coke. And this man works for a bank....says a lot, doesn't it? And they could get a nice place for a fraction of that if they didn't want to live right in the middle of London - I wonder how much an apartment in Manhattan goes for these days?

[lynnertic]

44. Thanks for the info.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

70. Yes, I bet they're like the Americans who go to Tokyo and pay

$10,000 a month for an apartment in the foreigners' ghetto. They take taxis everywhere, eat at gourmet restaurants, buy designer clothes, and then complain about how "expensive" everything is.

Meanwhile, I can travel in Japan for $1000 a week, not cheap, certainly, but clean, safe, and definitely more affordable.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

27. This man is a fuckwit.

Red flag #1: Flat in Marylebone. Nobody needs a flat in Marylebone. He could have easily found a less expensive flat somewhere else in London and saved that extra money.

Red flag #2: Expensive wine? You can buy decent cheap wine in England, same as anywhere else. If he's paying £18 for a bottle of wine it's because he wants expensive wine.

I see these people all the time. They come over from the US and don't bother to look around them at how the English live. They don't want to adjust their lifestyle one iota. And so they spend all of their money trying to live like they did in America and they end up broke.

[JCMach1]

29. I agree on your assessment of this guy...

However, it is VERY expensive to do anything in the Eurozone right now and London is off the chart when it comes to expenses and HASSLE...

That expensive trip to Gatwick by TAXI took almost 3hrs!

Even CRAPPY hotels are expensive there.

EUROZONE is a no go zone for me until the dollar goes up again and that's a shame!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

31. Yes, it is.

Which is why you shouldn't live in fucking Marylebone and buy £20 bottles of wine if you can't afford it!

[Jacobin]

88. I didn't know anyone took a taxi to Gatwick

I've always taken the train and it is quick and inexpensive

[MADem]

66. I used to buy great Italian wine in the milk box--it was the best stuff on the shelves, too.

You 'decant' if you want a fancy-schmanzy experience! It was cheap, too.

In Iran we used to say "Whatza buccaneer?" Answer: A helluva price to pay for corn!!! Decades ago, if you wanted MAXWELL HOUSE coffee (this is decades ago, mind you, when the Shah was in power) you paid TEN BUCKS for a small can. Ten bucks was not a small sum in those days. But you could buy coffee beans and grind them, or get the pulverized local coffee and make 'Turkish style' coffee with it for next to nothing.

Ya gotta adapt, and let go of your provincial ways, otherwise you end up poor and miserable!

[NashVegas]

72. Maybe They'd Never Been Over

If you're not hip to the various neighborhoods of London, who knows what? Most Americans have heard of Hyde Park & Notting Hill, that's it.

[demo dutch]

86. Yep!

[tom_paine]

28. Reap the "benefits" Amerikans, of your new servility toTotalitarian Monsters

Not to worry, we are ALL making less than we were 20 years ago, thanks to the weakening dolalr.

Just as our Bushie Masters, swimming in their ill-gotten loot like Scrooge McDuck, intended.

They can always hire one-half of the poor to kill the other half. It is the way it is and apparently, the way it always will be before we mentally diseased primates combust and plasticize ourselves into extinction.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

32. Dude, I think you need to lay off the $12 glasses of wine. n/t

[tom_paine]

35. I scarcely drink at all anymore. Too hard on my middle-aged stomach.

In my younger days, I could :beer: with the best of 'em.

But of course you were actually telling me to leave off the hyperbole. But it is not hyperbole. Not in the least.

Some links to bolster my "point", such as it was (including the two in my sigline)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20070723.shtml

http://www.amazon.com/End-America-Letter-Warning-Patriot/dp/1933392797/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197250809&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Shock-Doctrine-Rise-Disaster-Capitalism/dp/0312427999/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197250732&sr=8-3

Listen to the radio program, watch the YouTube. Read the books. Then get back to me and tell my how hyperbolic I am THEN.

Peace.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

36. "They can always hire one-half of the poor to kill the other half. "

I don't even know where to begin explaining what's wrong with that statement, so I'll make my analysis short and to the point:

Bullshit.

[tom_paine]

39. OMG! and LOL! What a complete and willful ignorance of history!

What a staggering and massive denial!

Wow. Very little can truly surprise me in this degenerate age but you have managed to do so.

How many strikers did the Pinkertons murder in the years 1880-1940?

How many people, both Jews and Christians alike, perished in the Middle Ages during Blood Libels and Inquisitions and the like?

How many KGB Men murdered how many dissidents in Soviet Russia 1920-1990?

My God, that's just THREE instances of dozens, hundreds throughout history.

And did not the Pinkertons, inquisitors, and KGB all receive weekly paychecks and made their living in part or full by these murders?

Were all the murderers, hired by the rich (and yes, in Soviet Russia, despite their protestations of being an egalitarian society, I daresay that wealth disparity between Party Comrades and Little Nobodies was as high or higher than it is in Bushmerika today), rich themselves?

Or were they poor people killing off other poor people at the behest of their Masters for their weekly bread?

You ave chosen to attack a point I have made which is literally as true today as it was 5000 years ago or 300 years ago, when a Scottish Philosopher first said this.

Wow. Just...wow. I have heard a lot of willful ignmorance and frightened denial of atrocity in my life, but this may well be the most staggering and complete self-deception I have ever "witnessed" personally.

Can you tell me WHY the three specific historic instances I mentioned do not directly and fully apply to the basic truth of that statement, which I wish I had said first, but didn't by about three centuries (it IS a pretty self-evident observation, when reading human history, so it is no wonder thsi was first noticed as a pattern so long ago) ?

On the other hand, perhaps you should stick with what works for you. Go ahead and insult me again without saying anything else, it certainly adds so much to the debate.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Also, I do very sincerely apologize for presenting you with links you will no doubt ignore. I thought you were an intellect and a debater, not a smearer. My deepest apologies for the mistunderstanding. I won't mistake you for one of those pointy-headed Lib'rul inetellectuals again.

Maybe Bob Boudelang is available for some discourse. You and he would likely agree about my Lib'rul nonsense.

[Silent3]

51. One doesn't need to be in denial of history or of...

...the very real problems in the US and elsewhere today to recognize over-the-top rhetoric.

[tom_paine]

53. While that is certainly true, one wonders what you would think if you clicked on my links

Don't like the way I phrase things? That may be so, but if you think it detracts from the quality of the points I am trying to make, I welcome you, no I invite you, to test the strength of those beliefs by looking not at my supposed hyperbole, which history shows may or may not overblown (we cannot know until the Bushies are finished their run...and if you think that ends even if a Democrat is allowed to ascend the Imperial Throne in 2008, then I submit you have not been paying attention.

I have two links in my signature. The Naomi Wolf presentation makes my points, except she is not as freaked out as I over this (to be fair, she did not realize this was happening until her friend, the daughter of holocaust survivors, sat her down and damned near MADE her read the histories that I have read and you have clearly not).

Like this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Defying-Hitler-Memoir-Sebastian-Haffner/dp/0312421133/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197208607&sr=8-2

or this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20070723.shtml

or any one of the links I psoted in my responses above.

You see, after seven long years of being a voice in the wilderness, others smarter and more eloquent people went out and did the research.

C'mon, I am such a hyperbolic loonie, it costs you nothing to debunk my moonbattery by clicking on these links or reading these books, and you will be able to smash me down with your debunking of Ms. Wolf's presentation, so why not look?

I don't know what else to tell you. Even conservatives (the non-Bushie kind) are noticing. Paul Craig Roberts and Bruce Fein. John Dean, of Watergate Fame and others. Google any of these names and read up on them. John Dean worked and knew (and still knows) Bushies on a personal level.

But his book, "Conservatives Without Conscience" must just be loonie hyperbole, too.

So, you may take issue with how I say things, but maybe you should try looking into those who aren't in the habit of using supposed hyperbole.

Click on some of my links and prove me wrong to your own satisafction, please. Either way, you won't regret it.

[pitohui]

40. already being done, ever heard of iraq

in usa young poor people are being solicited and even given bonuses to kill other poor people in foreign lands, so i don't think tom-paine's statement is THAT over the top

our dollar is worth not so much, we have a big population chasing a very small number of good-paying jobs, i don't know if it's deliberate policy to have wars to get rid of some of the excess, -- i think the real policy was to provide price support for the oil industry and the military services industries like halliburton and getting rid of some excess population was just a nice bonus for the evil-doers in high office

you made your analysis short and general to save typing, not sure why it's a bad thing for tom-paine to have done the same? you both used hyperbole, why is it wrong when he does it and okay when you do it?

[conspirator]

42. Bulshit? the divide and conquer vicious cycle:

allowed illegal immigration => cheap labor + unemployment
stupidifying education that only teaches you to be an obedient slave to the corporations => more cheap labor
long working hours => destruction of the family
unemployment => destruction of the family
destruction of the family => criminality, school dropouts
unemployment + school drop outs => cannon foder for wars or abusive police forces
criminality => turns the working class against itself + distracts people from core issues and the fact their greatest agressors are on the top of the pyramid
distracted people => no real democratic power, rigged elections and laws
rigged laws => more power to the elite to keep pushing for longer working hours, lower salaries and allowing illegal immigration

there you go the cycle is complete

[tom_paine]

55. I wish I had your brevity, conspirator.

I am officially envious.

[lonestarnot]

37. Well can we now get back the off shore money?

[pitohui]

41. the soft dollar policy was not realistic

the purpose was to bring investment back home, unfortunately, the dollar and our wages still have a long way to fall before we can be competitive with china or india

the problem w. the soft dollar policy is that we simply can't compete in a race to the bottom and still pay a living wage to workers

that's why the offshore money is still not coming back, fuck, there have even been reports of factories in mexico closed down because wages are lower in africa or china

we just can't continue like this in hope that one day, some day, investment will return to our factories because wages are low, we need to be competing (as europe does) on the basis of our factories providing a superior product that is worth paying for

[lynnertic]

43. Time to get humble

[SteppingRazor]

46. Then don't go to England. I just got back from my honeymoon Saturday...

we went to Prague (Czech kronen), Vienna (the, ugh, Euro) and Budapest (the Hungarian forint). Vienna was expensive, but the other two were bargains -- not how they were 10 years ago, but still relatively cheap.

Of course, in the case of the OP, the guy didn't have a choice -- the job was in England. But as far as leisure travel goes, there's still plenty of options if you don't want all your money to disappear overnight. The worst thing you can do is go to a place where the local currency is worth twice as much as the dollar (i.e. the UK).

[Finite]

48. I feel for them

It's very difficult for anyone to come to London right now, the pound is sky high and everything's overpriced anyway!

Having said that.. it's great when I go on holiday, all of a sudden I'm minted!

[thunder35]

49. more failures caused by bush

[Rottenmac]

50. As an american living in Munich,

I can attest to the horror of watching the news at the end of the day and calculating in my head how much money I have spent.

Take €200 out, in reality it is $300. My rent is €850 which comes to $1245(rounded up). I was spending that for a room in SF, and thought it was too much. SO I moved here to be with the woman I love and try something new. Every day when I see oil creep towards $100 a barrel and the dollar edging to €1=$1.50 I get sad, depressed, angry and I have to shut the damn thing off.

The economy might be going great for Oil Execs and Halliburton, but not for anyone living abroad who is getting paid with Dollars instead of Euros.

Thank Silenus beer is still cheaper than water, or I'd be sober just when I need a drink the most.

[MADem]

68. I used to room with Silenus, I think....!!! nt

[rocktivity]

52. A meal I had at a MacDonald's in London tasted great

until I realized I'd paid fourteen U.S. dollars for for it.

:puke:
rocknation

[MADem]

67. I like Burger King better in London. You can get Gardenburgers and Veggie Burgers, and you can

"have it your way" too!!

[melody]

71. You can get veggie burgers in California, too n/t

[MADem]

74. Wow! I haven't been to one of those fast food joints in years...

but I was hungry, it was late, and the BK was right there, so I went in, and was SHOCKED, shocked I tell you, to find those options on the menu! It was good, too! I guess it comes from having a large anti-cow population in town--that's a huge market, there.

[melody]

75. Tofu is practically the state bird of California :)

We do veggieburgers a lot down here (notdogs, too).

[Alenne]

76. You can get them in Delaware. nt

[MADem]

82. Cool! nt

[ozone_man]

77. Can't we just peg it to the Euro?

The dollar has lost all credibility.

[paparush]

83. London is VERY expensive...

Made only worse for Americans by the dollar's collapse.

[Sabriel]

84. It's cramping my style here at home, too.

Dropping dollar, no cost of living raise for almost 4 years, rising food/heat/transportation costs....

But at least I can still get Two-Buck Chuck to drink on my "balcony."

[truebrit71]

87. Okay, first things first...move out of London...most Brits can't afford it there either...

..and secondly, stop drinking Diet Coke and get a decent pint in your gullet...after just two or three things will appear to be much, MUCH better...

I wish MY company offered me a 33% pay raise and a job in London....

I'd be there in a heartbeat...