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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:00 PM
Original message
Chávez threatens opponents of reform
Source: The Guardian (UK)

by James Sturcke and agencies

The Venezuelan president, Hugo Chávez, today threatened to strip the country's industrialists of their assets if they continued to oppose his indefinite presidency. Chávez faces a vote at the weekend on his proposals to change 69 articles of the constitution, including scrapping the limit on the number of terms a president can serve.

Venezuela's largest business chamber, Fedecámaras, to which thousands of large and small businesses belong, has called the planned reforms an "illegal act," and called on voters to oppose their passage "by every possible legal means."

<snip>

"When I saw and heard the president of Fedecámaras practically threatening us, that they'd do everything they have to do to avoid the reform's approval - well, if you want to, go ahead, because I'm going to take away every business you have," Chávez said in a televised speech.

The president vowed not to allow a repeat of the events of 2002, when Pedro Carmona, then president of Fedecámaras, headed the country's interim government.

<snip>

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,2217771,00...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. And the hits just keep comiing. n/t
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. Chevez does have that constitutional right as President of his country
...and I support his courage to speak out against the oppression of the poor by the ruling elite
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. We might note at this juncture that he has never rounded anyone up
or seized assets even in the aftermath of the failed coup against him. The government has always gone through the courts. When they nationalized anything, it was always done by the book. This is more bs.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. ....
:puke:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. It's a full court press right now. Link:
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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
82. A Shillery supporter doesn't like Chavez.. how surprising..
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 10:22 PM by rAVES
:sarcasm:
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #82
94. Why don't you just call her Hitlery, eh?
I hear her husband had Vince Foster killed!
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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #94
97. Shillery is funnier, and it suits her.. I think shes bad, but Hitler?
Edited on Thu Nov-29-07 07:46 AM by rAVES
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nvme Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
37. ...and I support his courage to speak out against the oppression of the poor by the ruling elite
He is the ruling elite. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Amen to gov regulation and stopping the robber barons of Ven. But Chavez is smashing opposition voices. Such a sweeping move if allowed to continue will destroy any semblance of a representative gov the people there have. Make no mistake this is a man seeking to establish a totalitarian regime. His benefits to the poor are only his means to establish his strangle-hold. Once firmly rooted he will continue his rule by decree. Crush anyone who has thoughts of opposing his policies. His recent move in colombia is a good example: By directly communicating with Uribes top general, he breach a long standing agreement of not attempting to undermine the colombians prez's authority over colombia's military. He in essence interfere's with the sovereignty of colombia. Who is to say he didn't possibly discuss a coup de etat with said general? He is truly a wolf in sheeps clothing. If his desire to improve Venezuela were sincere I would laud him standing up to the world powers. Many Venezuelan's are terrified of the direction their home country is heading. The wind up here for fear of being persecuted there. I hope that the Venezuelan people will see beyond the guise of chavez and see the true intentions of their megalomaniac leader.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. LOL! Tell me, with a press owned by the oligarchy
and with students in opposition marching in the streets (and inciting violence), how exactly is President Chavez "smashing" anything?

You sound just like all the other factless bs.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Just flew in from Miami! And boy are those arms tired. n/t
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Andrushka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
74. "Make no mistake this is a man seeking to establish a totalitarian regime."
Huh? :crazy:

Do you actually know the first thing about what they are trying to achieve in Venezuela? Do you know anything apart from what you read in the MSM about what the referendum on these reforms is about?

The spelling mistakes, the lack of paragraphs, the blatant lies... you sure you are at the right site?
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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #37
83. lol. get a brain morans!! :P
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #37
95. crap n/t
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. "headed the country's interim government" = dictator for a day.
That deceptively worded sentence plays down the fact that Carmona was the "supreme leader" who abolished the Venezuelan congress and courts after he took over during the military coup.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. No kidding. n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Right! Also pitched out the entire constitution, and sent the police out to arrest and imprison
the administration's cabinet members and staff members. Lucky for them, they were able to find shelter in the homes of acquaintances, and hide until the administration was re-instated.

Just a tiny bit different from heading "the country's interim government."
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. other deceptive wording
"if they continued to oppose his indefinite presidency."

Confusing no term limits with no elections. May as well claim Obama's seat in the senate lasts "indefinitely."
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. They're really loading their words, aren't they? They are writing as if the hounds of hell
are at their heels, and they must pack every possible insinuation, and implication into every possible opening without completely losing coherence altogether!

Quite the task!
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nvme Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
47. They're really loading their words, aren't they? They are writing as if the hounds of hell
As much as I despise republicans I still welcome The fact that they exist. The same cannot be said of Chavez's regime. The only opposition television station had its liscense revoked and equipment seized. Property is being seized as well. (yes the chavistas use the courts, but its fellow chavistas who are now the judges who administer "justice") Hell I admire Chavez's slapping us in the face and his opposition to our trade agreements, but Caracas still has one of the highest murder rates In South America. I have witnessed the poverty first hand. I also see all the Venezuelan's Emmigrating to the US. I have watched Chavez rant daily on TV while in Venezuela. Since he has been in charge the changes made in venezuela are just cosmetic. Practically none of The oil money has actually improved the roads schools hospitals or infrastructure. His "community action committees" or whatever are supposed to help the locals direct money to the betterment of those areas. that is one of his changes, but it doesnt take into account the corruption that exist in those areas. yet they have to give up his term limits and allow him to occupy his office for 10 years. It doesnot seem an equitable trade to me. those who oppose him will eventually be quietly stiffled. Remember Fidel Castro Promised revolutionary changes and delivered them to the Cuban people. it has been more than 40 years and can you say that cuba is a better country as a result? If it is then why have so many Cuban moved here? Supporting Chavez just because he rallies against bush does not make him a nice guy. Kim Jung Ill opposes bush but im sure you could say that North Korea should is a Utopian paradise.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #47
61. Oh, please. Take a breath, slow down, address your points one at a time.
If you have something you want to discuss, do it in a civilized manner.

If you want to make charges, go get your evidence.

What do Cuba and North Korea have to do with the proposed reforms in Venzuela coming up for referendum on Sunday?

Remember, go get those links to support your claims.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #47
62. You must mean, the co conspirators who tried to overthrow
the democratically elected government of Venezuela were denied a renovation of their license after FIVE YEARS. And that state property reverted to the state.

No property was seized at all. Try again.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. As has been written so many times, in the weeks following this spectacle,
there is NO WAY IN HELL that a tv station could do what they did here, and creak on for FIVE YEARS, and not be slammed down so hard their teeth would rattle. They would have been thrown in jail, in the first place, for engaging in the active solicitation of violence in the run-up to the coup, and then forced to be responsible for the disinformation, followed by the total news blackout once the tide had turned and the people of Venezuela forced the oligarchy to "unkidnap" their President and put him right back in Miraflores.

How anyone could be so bent he would try to pitch that baloney here, to people who know better, is beyond reckoning.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Can you imagine what would happen if CNN tried to pull that cr@P?
They'd be shut down in a heartbeat. No one would wait five years to do it lawfully.

Five years.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. Ha! There would be a crater where their offices were in Atlanta! n/t
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #4
100. Attempting to bestow legitimacy
Edited on Thu Nov-29-07 11:36 AM by ronnie624
on the violent overthrow of an elected government, does little for the credibility of the author of this steaming pile. Sad to see that the Guardian employs such a hack.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #100
106. Isn't it, though? It's amazing to see what has happened to traditionally respectable sources. n/t
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mlevans Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. Hugo Chávez, today threatened to strip the country's industrialists of their assets
I would tend to agree with this, if for no other reason than that it will undoubtedly piss off George "El Diablo" Bush. Chavez may have his faults, but he reminds me a lot of Robin Hood...ie. a bona fide folk hero.
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LibertarianAtheist Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. so people should have their assets stolen simply to annoy Bush
what a mortifyingly stupid thing to say.
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mlevans Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. what a mortifyingly stupid thing to say
As was intended.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. You don't read much, do you?
Do you have any clue that our government is waging a quiet war against the people of Venezuela right now? No, you don't.

So before you embarrass yourself further, read something.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Then, you must have noticed the concerted disinformation effort
that has been going on for more than two weeks now. I personally outted four media outlets all by myself. No telling what a good reader like you could have done.
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #38
98. It can be hard to notice something that he himself is a part of.
Edited on Thu Nov-29-07 07:51 AM by WakingLife
I know it is bad form to question people based on the number of posts they have, and typically new members of this site are great people who bring value to this site, but these guys are just way too obvious. They almost never have a membership star, they have very few posts, and they never post on anything other than Venezuela. To top it off they always misrepresent things. For example, no reasonable, informed person can present the revocation of RCTV's license in the way they do. One guy called them the only opposition media in Venezuela which of course is ridiculous (all the private stations are pro-opposition in Venezuela). He was also completely oblivious (or feigning it) to RCTV's involvement in the 2002 coup.

I have to hand it to you guys that keep up the fight to not let these propagandists (paid propagandists?) overrun the forum with their disinfo. Just once I would like to be able to have an honest dialog about Chavez without having to spend all the time debunking absurd falsehoods and hyperbolic propaganda. Unfortunately these types of people make that impossible which is the main reason I almost never bother with these threads here anymore. Thanks to those of you who do bother.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #98
101. The disinformation shows up in surprising places.
I don't know if you watch LinkTv but they started airing a new show, "Latin Pulse" and the premise of the first one was that Hugo Chavez was suppressing dissent in the media and it featured the RCTV story.

I had to explain to the Link Research Director (!) that they were promoting right wing propaganda. That was pretty amazing. My theory is that the spinners believed they could pull it off because the show is in English and in Spanish, likely run on a shoe string, and they thought they could slip by between the languages.
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nick303 Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
102. You mean like when you falsely accused the Miami Herald of removing your post
in their comments section?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. You're going to have to start paying closer attention. Go back and determine how it is
you believe Hugo Chavez will steal peoples' assets.

Maybe he's going to come after your tv! I'm hiding mine.
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LibertarianAtheist Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. let's see
he's having the government take over all the petroleum industries out of Venezuela. I am doubting he's also paying the people who had stakes in said companies the money they would have earned had they simply been allowed to act as a private business (hence theft).
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. You owe it to yourself to start keeping up on these things. Read first, grasp the subject,
THEN post.
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LibertarianAtheist Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. this is what i'm seeing:
blah blah blah government needs to have more control over the economy blah blah marxism is the best form of economics blah blah blah hurray for the Soviet Union
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. And this is your idea of conducting adult communication?
You may need to consider thinking, and pulling away from your belief calling people "Marxists."

Name calling, attempting to call people out as enemies of the state in your eyes is NOT a starting place for a conversation, if you're attempting to communicate with people here.
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leftist_not_liberal Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
70. "Libertarian" = a sure sign of a political neophyte
Disclaimer: This is not a conspiracy story, though it has all the elements of one. Anonymous shadowy figures, international "societies", complete political "ideologies" created for convenience alone, social institutions corrupted through the mere distribution of cash (science, politics, universities, governments and even the Nobel Prize), and a global strategy designed to "rule the world" - no doubt about it, this one is better than a novel. But, don't get carried away. There are no secret ceremonies or lizard people in this tale. Nor is it a story about groups named after Italian light fixtures or German beer. It is instead the story of how "everyday conspiracies" work.

Karl Marx wrote that the ruling ideas of any age are the ideas of its ruling class. Looking backward, it is hard to dispute this observation, but how does it actually work? That is what our story is about. It starts with the businessman below and his simple frustration at the success of Marxism as an idea, first among his own workers and then amongst the American establishment whose wide-spread adoption of the appropriately conciliatory "New-Dealism" was entirely in response. In an economic system in which everything is reduced to a commodity, a man of means should be able to simply buy a counter-idea, shouldn't he? So it turns out...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #70
77. Thanks for posting this.Missed it the 1st time,looking foward to reading it. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. If you'd bothered to search, yes, the companies that were nationalized
were compensated.

But that should come as no surprise to a good reader such as yourself.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. That would be the spin. n/t
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. Yeah, Hugo Chavez.... he's worse than Bush....
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. He eats kittens. For lunch. On Sundays.
lol
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boricua79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
85. LOL...
thanks...this thread needed the quick laugh.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. Beautiful. The "journalist" indulged himself in the ubiquitous "recititation of grievances"
by not reporting just on the story, but dragging in as many derogatory things as he felt he could pasted in there without making a spectacle of himself.

Since you know he's "conscious" of what he's doing, this would have to be called "disinformation."

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Judi Lynn, are you WATCHING this?
:wow:

It's up to more than one hit piece a day.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Yep, it's a real avalanche today, isn't it? It has been building for days.
This is really freakish, isn't it?

Hope it won't end with an assassination. It's surely what they're hoping for!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I hate to say this but I don't see it ending well.
:(
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
73. Ever notice they never provide full context for these inflammatory quotes?
And on top of that, and the problems with translation, they usually paraphrase them once or twice to make it sound even more audacious.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. It's like psychopaths have taken over our media. This would be hilarious if we didn't need
information from anywhere for anything.

Looks as if the people of the world will have to come up with a new way of passing along information which leaves these clowns OUT!

Smoke signals? Drums? Ig-pay Atin-lay? Rocks with notes tied around them? Holy moly.

They aren't even smart enough to be embarrassed. They assume we're all as idiotic as they are.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #73
81. They're trying to Howard Dean Chavez and they've succeeded
to a large degree.
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LaloBorges Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
15. Bush should do the same
Why not? I believe that Bush should change the constitution so that he, and Cheney (of course), can continue to lead the country as they have done so well these past seven years. It would guarantee that all the good ideas that Bush and his administration have are completed and not transformed by liberals who do not believe in providing freedom to the World as well as expanding democracy throughout the middle east.

So...what do you all think about that? Bush for president for ever?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. He hasn't even been elected once. What is it you're attempting to say? n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Lalo, can you list the countries that have the same arrangements
on terms limits? England, Canada, Australia, Japan. There, you have a start. Do you also have a search engine? The information is readily available.

I love the way the corporate media only harp on this point and disregard the real social reforms also under consideration. Btw, do you have any gay friends in Venezuela? Because these reforms write their rights into the Constitution.
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. I'm fine with no term limits for Presidents. As long as there continue
to be elections I have no problem with it.
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LaloBorges Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
41. The problem with what Chavez wants to do....
And for those who are not aware that some of the moves that Chavez have made mirror those that Bush has made most of that we do not approve of. In defense of Chavez, Bush has followed on Chavez ideas, but nonetheless, the same negative effect to the people.

Two points that we can compare with our situation in the US:
1. "Rabber-Stamp" Congress and Senate.
2. Appointed his own judges to the Supreme Court.
3. Use of the treasury to gain influence internationally.

Someone said that Bush was not even elected once, true, but Chavez was elected only once, the second time it was fixed as he bought part of the company that provided the electronic voting machines and although those did have “paper trail”, no one knows where the “paper trail” went to, Carter was never able to see it.

Someone else said that he has not persecuted the opposition, which is not true, he has done that many times, one example is Carlos Fernandez and other labor leaders who were forced to leave the country and had to go in hiding. Also, any military who opposed his ideas has been dismmised (sound familiar?).

Also, Chavez talks about the 2002 coup where no one died and never talks about the one he commanded in 1992 where more than fourteen innocent people were shamelessly executed by Chavez and his group as well as a number of soldiers who died that day.

Doesn’t anyone have any questions about Chavez easy access to the Colombian guerrilla where he constantly offers himself as a mediator? He is able to “negotiate” the release of kidnapped victims by the guerrilla? Why is that?

I would like to know what social progress people on this blog mention so much as Chavez accomplishments, but I have not seen anyone provide specifics; I know a lot of people in Venezuela, and they are not all anti-Chavez, but even the ones who support him seem to be living in hope, but have not seen much from the promises.

If anyone has information on Chavez social accomplishments, please provide the links, I don’t mind being corrected.


Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
-- Lord Acton
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. This post is so full of disinformation, I just have to wonder about you.
Mr. Chavez went on teevee to take responsibility for 1992. That's when he started to accrue a following. And, you most likely know that.

Shall I go on? I'll be happy to do that.
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LaloBorges Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Please do, go on...
He went on TV? And you think that is enough? When did he do that, go on TV, and what did he say?

Please do go on and if you want to maintain a dialog, I am all for that, but if you are going to start with personal attacks then you will be the last one to type. "I just have to wonder about you"??? What is there to wonder? Am I not allowed to have my opinion?

Also, if you do intend to go on, have you actually lived in Venezuela and can say that you have experienced the "Revolution"?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. So you admit that your founding premise is bullshit?
Thank you, Lalo.
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LaloBorges Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. You really don't have anything useful to say, do you?
have a good one...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Yes. I have something useful to say.

Your premise is false and you won't admit to it. So, if you turn this into a personal attack on me, then I'm sure your "argument" will be judged accordingly.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. Possibly one of the most bizarre bits of disinformation ever posted here.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 04:00 PM by Judi Lynn
Simply odd.

It's written in such a way, it looks as if you're trying to guage how much Americans might be expected to NOT know, or remember from the information they've read, and build on that.

It won't work.

It may take time, since the rest of us usually are trying to attend to our lives, and step in and out of DU as time permits, but every one of your truth-mangling claims can easily be dismissed.

You are disrespectful to the truth, to put it mildly. You must not fear being struck by lightning from heaven.



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gorbal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
22. How about one sticky Chavez thread at the top of news?
There are plenty of other things going on in Latin American and even the world.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Someone will ask, why is this important?
And the answer is, because this is a death struggle between democracy and corporatism in Latin America and our tax dollars are on the wrong side.

It's going to be like this for at least the next week. The aftermath will likely be even worse. :(
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gorbal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Of course it's important
That is why I suggested one sticky thread at the TOP; too many threads with right-wing propaganda influenced titles is incredibly annoying.

We should discuss more articles on the struggle in the rest of Latin American as well, the dirty war, the Columbian government's "behind the scenes: with paramilitaries: all of these topics deserve the same attention or more without being segregated from the rest of the news or being pushed to the side by topic after topic with a title ripping on Chavez.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. It's so easy to make it about a personality
when it's really about democracy on this continent.
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Mr_Monday Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
43. Why is it
When Bush does something like this, such as granting himself powers which directly violate the constitution, people are (justly) outraged but when Chavez does even worse things (such as removing term limits) the same people praise him for willingness to fight for the people. If you allow yourself to be blinded by idealism you are no better than the fundies and neocons.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Easy. Because Chavez hasn't done that, that's just how your media reports it.
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Mr_Monday Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Then I apologize for being an ignorant sheep .
Hubris, much?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. No. And I don't mean to sound that way.
I've just tried to be very careful and to read well and check back. Hubris is not something I aspire to.

lol
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nick303 Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #44
103. Logic
If it supports my religious beliefs about Chavez, accept readily.

If it does not, then it is clearly media disinformation.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
75. No term limits is worse?
That is an incredible statement
The best president the US had was elected to 4 terms and could have had 5 if he had not died in office.
Roosevelt took us through a deep depression and a world war and not many wanted him to quit just because of some notion of a term limit.
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Mr_Monday Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #75
92. Imagine Bush with no term limits. Then you begin to see the problem.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #92
96. But with elections every 4 year?
Is there any doubt that bush could not win an election now giving the troubles we have seen? And in fact he has never won an election, but I doubt that anyone would believe it if he ran and won in 08.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #43
108. President Chavez has not 'granted himself powers', Mr Monday.
Edited on Fri Nov-30-07 12:57 AM by ronnie624
He has proposed reforms to the Venezuelan government. The Venezuelan National Assembly - the body of which was elected by the Venezuelan people - has voted overwhelmingly to institute these reforms. In early December, the proposals may or may not be ratified by a general election, depending upon how the Venezuelan people vote. It is expected that the reforms will pass by a considerable margin, in highly monitored elections. This process is called democracy.

As has been mentioned here repeatedly of late, many countries have no term limits for elected national leaders. If the Venezuelan people vote to remove term limits, why would this be a problem for anyone in the United States?

The truth is so much more complex and interesting than the simplistic propaganda one receives from cable 'news' media and the rest of the corporatist echo chamber, but getting at the truth requires critical thinking and acquiring information from numerous sources (mostly reading, of course). One must also be willing to question culturally induced preconceptions about the world and the role our country plays in the global community. In short, much effort and 'soul searching' is required.

Do yourself and all of your fellow species members a favor, and seek out the truth.
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liberalsoldier5 Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
49. Chavez could rape an infant on national TV and...
there would still be Marxist assholes on this site who would find a way to defend his actions "because..uh..the baby was a rightwing CIA spy and...uh...the people wanted it... yeah!"

Chavez is a dictator. That debate is pretty much over, and has come to a pretty bipartisan conclusion. Would Bush love his power? Yes. Does Bush have his power? No, not at all. That this website wouldn't exist is just one of a billion reasons why Bush is not as bad as or worse than Chavez.

The type of leftists who find ways to adore this Venezuelan thug (Nancy Pelosi's word) are the same type who make up fringe groups like ANSWER and found ways to support Stalin. The DEMOCRATIC party is NOT the proper home for these lunatics. An insane asylum would suit them better.

As for the students who are courageously protesting Chavez in the streets right now, I say God bless them. And I'm heavily thankful that our government, and both parties, are on their side.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. Please post a fact. It would be such a relief.
lol
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. I think he should post his facts in sanskrit. What do you think?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. I think it's scary that we can accept this disinfo about a foreign leader
and not expect it to come home to stifle dissent here. :shrug:
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Andrushka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #59
76. Good idea
He has shown he has a flair with the languages, as evidenced by the grasp he appears to have of the language commonly known as Bullshit.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #59
91. I think that you have a keen eye n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. Provide your basis for calling Democrats who post here "Marxists" and "Stalin supporters."
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 04:09 PM by Judi Lynn
You don't indulge in red-baiting without some evidence you know what you're talking about. This drunken fool was finally kicked to the curb after dragging this country through hell, and destroying lives trying to take the easy way out, call down people as "commies," and avoid facing the real issues of this country.



In case you think red-baiting is on its way back, guess again. It's dirty, it's cheap, it's stupid.

Go get your evidence DU'ers on this thread, like me, are "Marxists," or shut the #### up.
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leftist_not_liberal Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #55
71. I am proudly a Marxist
and appreciate your efforts to keep the facts straight regarding the democratically elected leader of Venezuela, a man who enjoys public popularity that is twice that of our own election-thieving fascist.

Folks in America are generally so very far to the right that they cannot countenance a move of the people in the interest of same. They have no experience of that. And single payer healthcare and Linux are "communist."

If only.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #55
109. A perfect example
of the sort of screed one can expect from the rightist reactionaries who attack Chavez without thought. This one is a bit over the top however, with "Marxist assholes", "Stalin" and the part about supporters of democracy in Venezuela belonging in an "insane asylum".

And the bit about raping an infant was particularly loathsome. What a disgusting way to smear someone whose politics one might disagree with.

In typical fashion, the post by liberalsoldier5, is just one ad hominem attack after another, directed at Chavez and his supporters. Unfortunately, this sort of garbage works on many groggy, misinformed Americans.

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Mr_Monday Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. True nt
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Welcome to DU, Mr. Monday.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #49
68. Marxists? Stalin supporters?
Did I stumble into a time warp and wind up in 1952?
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boricua79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #49
86. lost the argument with "dictator".
that's just factually untrue.

Come again when you have actual facts that reflect actual political reality in Venezuela...

Off to the kiddie table with you!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. You make me wonder what those kids are eating, over there.
lol
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boricua79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #90
99. Kellogs RepublicaTrix
Silly rabbit...Trix are for old white rich bastards.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
65. I see the Mighty Wurlitzer is still giving it the old college try ... nt
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Andrushka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
66. Bullshit reporting
and I shall be writing to the Guardian to tell them exactly that.

"The Venezuelan president, Hugo Chávez, today threatened to strip the country's industrialists of their assets if they continued to oppose his indefinite presidency."

Yeah, that's really what he stated, huh? That's really what they are against him about, no term limits, huh?



:puke: :argh:

Fuck these "reporters" and their part in the orchestrated campaign to bring down Chavez.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
67. Venezuela Chavez: CNN may be instigating my murder
CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said on Wednesday CNN may have been instigating his murder when the U.S. TV network showed a photograph of him with a label underneath that read "Who killed him?"



http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN28566346200...


paranoia may destroy ya
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #67
80. Or, you can learn from experience as he has. This isn't the first time
this has been done. Ya know?
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
72. I believe he's taking their words as a threat they will do something illegal
like the last coup they sponsored, and that if they proceed down that path he will start cracking down on them, unlike the last time.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #72
79. You've got to go to G.D. and see "donsu's" find right away. I just read it a few minutes ago.
CIA Venezuela Destabilization Memo Surfaces
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sounds as if they've got the goods on quite a few people. Cool!
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boricua79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
84. not that I cry for industrialists
but threatening to take people's property for not following a particular political policy is not very democratic behavior.

I'm sure many of you will retort with the "since when is it their property to own the resources of an entire nation".

I'm in agreement with you.

I'm just saying that this behavior is iffy...this Chavez supporter has been feeling cold feet for a while now...Chavez keeps looking scarier and scarier.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. No, the context has been so skewed, we don't even know what he said.
Keep in mind that the legitimate government in Venezuela is fending off a US - backed destabilization right about now.
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nick303 Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #87
104. What he said
Do you ever get sick of making all these "fit of rage" statements that always end up being wrong?



http://www.abn.info.ve/go_news5.php?articulo=112076

Caracas, 26 Nov. ABN.- El comandante y líder de la revolución bolivariana, Hugo Chávez Frías, afirmó este lunes que “si el presidente de Fedecámaras (José Manuel González) insiste en sus amenazas al gobierno bolivariano yo les quito todas las empresas que tienen”.

"The commander and leader of the Bolivarian revolution, Hugo Chavez, declared this Monday that

"If the president of Fedecamaras (Jose Manuel Gonzales) insists on his threats to the Bolivarian government, I will 'relieve' them of all the businesses that they possess."

"

The article goes on to clarify that the "threat" refers to the threat of voting no to the reforms.
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Dave From Canada Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
88. Everyday, Chavez acts more like Bush. He just spews a different kind of fear.
Patriot Act = Chavez's constitutional reforms.

Al Qaeda = CIA and/or America

911 = 2002 attempted Coup

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Lol!. Well, no. n/t
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Mr_Monday Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #88
93. Whoah, I never thought about that.
But yeah, he does spew a bush-esque style of fear. If anyone questions him they are imperialists who are working for the CIA and/or America. If anyone questions his paranoia, he responds with "2002 attempted coup", just as Bush climbed the Two Towers anytime his policies were questioned. It's all there.
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Clanfear Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #93
107. The similarities are spooky.
It's like they have the same mother.
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Clanfear Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
105. Things are about to get ugly in Venezuela
Too bad they aren't going to have any election monitors this time, as fraud will surely be rampant.

If Chavez loses he is a lame duck and has already made numerous threats. If he follows through he will damage the country for a long time to come.

If the people lose it is sure to incite mass violence that Chavez will use to his advantage, and hello Cuba of Venezuela.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #105
110. President Hugo Chávez indicated Tuesday that he will not give up on plans to change the Constitution
Venezuela's Chávez defiant, despite defeat
President Hugo Chávez indicated Tuesday that he will not give up on plans to change the Constitution, even though voters rejected the idea this past Sunday.

snip
Speculation has begun to mount about how and when Chávez will attempt to push some of the reforms into law, whether unilaterally by decree or through the National Assembly, which he dominates. He also controls the country's courts, most of its media, and almost all local and state governments.

His options may be limited by article 345 of the current Constitution, which prohibits a reform project defeated at the polls to be submitted again during the same presidential term.

In theory, this means the president could not push through proposals such as curbing the Central Bank's autonomy, the formalization of Venezuela as a socialist state, creating a confederation of nations with Cuba, abolishing presidential term limits, and presidential appointment of local and state authorities.

But Chávez has the power to pass any law unilaterally, until August 2008,
.....

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1206/p01s01-woam.html?pag...

He still "Rules by Decree" and if his enemies increase in number..... he may decree himself to remain presidente.
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boricua79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-06-07 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
111. why is this story still active?
He lost the reform. Now move on.
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