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Senator Kerry Replies to Pickens' Moving the Goalposts

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ralbertson Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 04:57 PM
Original message
Senator Kerry Replies to Pickens' Moving the Goalposts
Edited on Tue Nov-20-07 05:12 PM by ralbertson
Source: www.johnkerry.com

Full text of the following letter that was sent by Senator John Kerry to T. Boones Pickens this afternoon is posted on his website, at http://www.johnkerry.com/2007/11/20/senator-kerry-repli...


Dear Mr. Pickens,

Thank you for your response to my acceptance of your challenge.

Im grateful that you are prepared to make good on your word and fulfill the offer you made publicly at the American Spectator Dinner in Washington, D.C. on November 6th.

I must remind you, however, that this was and is your challenge, not mine. You are, after all, the one who said explicitly at the dinner in a way that was calculated to challenge any naysayer that you would give one million dollars to anyone who could show that anything the SBVT said was false. (RedState.Com) These were your words and nowhere did you ever suggest, as you are now trying to, that your challenge referred specifically and exclusively to any advertising by the SBVT.

As you know, the lies of the SBVT were not confined just to their ads; they were a constant barrage of television, radio, Internet, speeches, and forums in which significantly bankrolled by you they launched and repeated lie after lie. Your challenge expressly stood behind all of their allegations.

It is disturbing that in reaffirming the challenge you issued, your parsing and backtracking seems eerily reminiscent of the entire approach of the SBVT say one thing, put out an allegation, then duck and weave, hedge and bob when your words catch up with you. I want to believe that this was not your intent because I am told that you are a man of your word, not all hat and no cattle.

Honor and duty, which you purport to defend, demand that you not selectively back away from your original challenge. Your offer clearly said boldly, unequivocally to an audience of your friends and supporters that you would give a million dollars to anyone who could prove wrong anything the Swiftboat Veterans charged about Kerry. (AmericanThinker.com) In my letter, that is the offer which I accepted.

I was interested to read in your response that you dont want to see the SBVT maligned, and that you aim to prevent this important part of American history from being unfairly portrayed. I accepted your offer precisely because I want to prevent the honorable records of the courageous men who served with me from being maligned by the repeated lies of this organization. I want to see the word Swiftboat restored to its original meaning synonymous with honorable service to country, not political lies aimed to distort and divide. I would hope that your interests should also be in protecting the record of all those who served our country.

As Ive said to you before, I am prepared to prove the lie and marshal all the evidence, the question is whether you are prepared to fulfill your obligation no variations, no back pedaling, no retreat, no new bets, no changing the subject.

The only thing remaining now is to set the date for our meeting in an appropriate forum, after which I look forward to you keeping your word and writing a check for one million dollars payable to the Paralyzed Veterans of America so that we can put your money to good work for veterans who have returned home from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sincerely,

John F. Kerry
United States Senator







Read more: http://www.johnkerry.com/2007/11/20/senator-kerry-repli...
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. Call Him What he is Kerry... a Coward!
and do it publicly. You fought for your country with honor, you earned the right to put him in his place. Good on you!
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. He calls his a lot of things here -
but in a challenging way. "All hat, no cattle" and he questions his honesty.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
106. The cockney's joke about ten-gallon stetsons sounds just as appropriate:
"If you can't fight, wear a big hat!" Except that we know "mouth and trousers" wouldn't fight.

Remember the Doonsbury strip in which the rich Ivy League frat boy said he wasn't going to sign up for Iraq, because he would be more useful to the country managing derivatives! A particular bitter irony in the present econmic context, eh?
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #106
115. Cool
That Doonsbury shows the modern day's Cheney et al. That they are manipulating the entire economy is scary. I like the British "mouth and trousers" I never heard that before - it fits Pickens.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
168. Well, after the check is written of course
I do want to see the money go out to the PVA
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. Great response!
Keep kicking back, Senator.
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. Not to be the grammar police, but shouldn't it be "back pedaling"
not "back peddling?"
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ralbertson Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Actually, that would be "typo police"

And thanks to your sharp eye, I've gone back and fixed it. Thanks!
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icnorth Donating Member (954 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Back peddle vs back pedal..
In my mind's eye I see Peddler Pickens invited to put his "goods" up to public scrutiny and then watching J.K. back peddle it up it's owner's orifice of origin. :evilgrin:
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Gonnuts Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #12
99. peddle ... pedal
I know who has no paddle.

And I know what creek it's up.
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bear425 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Nice letter and thanks for posting here. n/t
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. I thought Kerry wrote the letter. Didn't he? n/t
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ralbertson Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. He did. I am merely the humble messenger here. .. n/t

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Highway61 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Ya know what?
When you are taken in the middle of the night to a unknown prison and tortured and forgotten about, remember one thing...you spent your time correcting someone's "grammar". It's the fucking message here...WTF!!
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Nice user name. I wanted to steal a Hwy. 61 sign in Minn. that
Edited on Tue Nov-20-07 06:41 PM by rzemanfl
had another sign with an arrow pointing to "Rolling Stone" back in the '60s. The point is that a mistake like that is out of character for President Kerry. Now I'm told it was an error in the OP-so I am confused.

On edit: it is one word: "Rollingstone" MN
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ralbertson Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. LOL. It is The DU Way. .. n/t
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
71. And why were you
so upset about getting the word straightened out?

It was done very graciously and didn't cause a ripple until your freaked-out post.
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petersjo02 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. Well, if Pickens wants to peddle his back,
far be it from me to stop him. He's already peddled a bunch of bull____. The jerk knows those ads were lies. He can't take the heat and now he wants out of the kitchen.
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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. NO, "back pedaling" as in pedaling your bicycle backwards.
Peddling would be selling something.
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Bombero1956 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. pleased to kick and recommend
T. Boone Pickens is a lying bag of horse manure.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. Don't let him off the hook, John...
reel him in, clean, filet and fry his ass for supper. Might I suggest French wine with your entree.

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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
105. Don't forget the fava beans (n/m)
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FreeStateDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. John Kerry has the evil shit totally confused by using a word completely alien to his life: honor.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. I love it when Democrats stand up to bullshit!
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. Man how I wish this were his response immediately after the initial BS. However,
it's fabulous regardless.

:toast:
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
66. Yes I agree. The Democrat presidential candidates need to be prepared for this type
of attack and be ready for this type of response. To hell with your damn advisor's, America likes a fighter. Fight back for America's sake.

And thank you John Kerry, any push back we can muster helps. Fight them on each and every issue.
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #66
92. Psst, It is "Democratic" presidential candidates.
Sorry, I have become hyper sensitive to that one. It is an adjective not a noun.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #92
93. Yeah, me too.
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 12:12 AM by Spiffarino
"Democrat" is a slur if used to replace "Democratic" as in Democratic Party and "the Democratic Senator from Wisconsin." Joe McCarthy is purported to have been one of the original scumbags to use it in this fashion.

It's correct to say, "she's a Democrat" or even, "the Democrat from Missouri" but if anyone ever says "Democrat Congressman" or "Democrat Party" in front of me, they'd better prepare for a long lecture. Or maybe a nutpunch. Depends on my mood.
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trogdor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #93
126. I usually stop reading at that point.
Anyone who uses language like "Democrat Party" or "Democrat Congressman" cannot possibly have anything valuable to say.
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Doctor Panacea Donating Member (223 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #93
149. It burns me up, too
The use of 'Democrat' when the correct word is 'Democratic' is something that may have started as long ago as McCarthy, but I do not remember hearing it before the Gingrich era. It certainly did not become current until then.

Republicans do this because in their petty way they are trying to avoid attaching the idea of democracy to the Democratic Party. They do not want to use the word 'democratic' to describe the party that opposes them.

Unfortunately, the dimwits in the media, even down at the local level, have heard the Republicans talk about the 'Democrat candidates', and they have started to imitate the Republicans through sheer ignorance.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
11. recommend
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. An awesome reply
YOu can sense the sarcasm and disdain dripping from each and every word, but all done in the most elegant, courteous, and gentlemanly fashion. Almost a literary gem.
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LynzM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
118. Agreed.
I love his tone, this letter rocks! :)
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
16. Honor and duty?
Kerry hasn't spent much time around Texas oilmen. Honor and duty is simply to themselves. No one else.
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Bennyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
17. And that's how poltiicians say "Hey you, fucker"
"You lying son of a bitch'.....
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
19. This whole thing is going nowhere
Edited on Tue Nov-20-07 06:43 PM by bluestateguy
T-Bone wants the bet resolved on his terms and his terms only. He and only he would get to "decide" if the charges were disproven.

Kerry, on the other hand, is more than a little tardy with all of this grandstanding. What's the point anymore? He's like the college kid who didn't do his work all semester, but then offers to do extra credit at the end of the semester in a fruitless effort to make it all up.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. "Grandstanding" my ass!
John Kerry has stated repeatedly since '04 that his greatest regret is not having hit back hard against the swift boat liars. Since then he has responded immediately and forcefully to their bullshit whenever it appears. Your use of the pejorative "grandstanding" coupled with an asinine college kid analogy is indicative of either an anti-Kerry bias, or abject stupidity.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. I supported Wes Clark in 2004
He should have been the nominee.

I would hardly pat Kerry on the back for a response that is 3 years too late.

If either Kerry or T-Bone were serious about this gimmick they would draw up a contract to have a neutral arbiter decide who wins this bet, to be determined on the basis of whatever evidence the arbiter demands.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. Not three years too late
only to those who aren't aware of the response:

Aug. 17, 2004 - the campaign held a press conference at which Gen. Wesley Clark (ret.), Adm. Stansfield Turner (ret.), and several swift boat veterans rebutted the charges. (4)

Aug. 19, 2004 - the Kerry-Edwards campaign announced its own ad "Rassmann." (4)

Aug. 20, 2004 - The Swift Liars' second television ad began airing. This ad selectively excerpted Kerry's statements to the SFRC on 4/22/1971. (7)

Aug. 22, 2004 - the Kerry-Edwards campaign announced another ad "Issues" which addressed the Swift Boat group's attacks.

Aug. 25, 2004 - The Kerry-Edwards campaign ... dispatched former Sen. Max Cleland and Jim Rassmann, to Bush's ranch in Crawford, Texas to deliver to the President a letter signed by Democratic Senators who are veterans. (The letter was not accepted.) (4)


Before it got to that point:

May 3, 2004 - "Kerry campaign announced a major advertising push to introduce 'John Kerry's lifetime of service and strength to the American people.' Kerry's four month Vietnam experience figures prominently in the ads." (2)

May 4, 2004 - The Swift Liars, beginning their lies by calling themselves "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth", went public at a news conference organized by Merrie Spaeth at the National Press Club. (1)

May 4, 2004 - "The Kerry campaign held a press conference directly after the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" event...The campaign provided an information package which raised significant questions about 'Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.' " (3)

May 4, 2004 - Aug. 5, 2004 - No public activity by Swift Liars (?) Wikipedia entry (7) notes "When the press conference garnered little attention, the organization decided to produce television advertisements." (Ed. note - were there any public info or announcements, other than talk on blogs? Was there anything going on publicly? Did the campaign have reason to foresee what was coming - note that they must have, see the reactions to each ad).

The media armed with the facts paid no attention to the liars, that is until the MSM launched its onslaught in August:

By the time the Swift Boat story had played out, CNN, chasing after ratings leader Fox News, found time to mention the Swift Boat Veterans for Truthhereafter, Swiftiesin nearly 300 separate news segments, while more than one hundred New York Times articles and columns made mention of the Swifties. And during one overheated 12-day span in late August, the Washington Post mentioned the Swifties in page-one stories on Aug. 19, 20, 21 (two separate articles), 22, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, and 31. It was a media monsoon that washed away Kerrys momentum coming out of the Democratic convention.


Why would the media, with facts in hand, devote so much time to airing information they knew was false? This was free advertising for the Bush campaign.

Not three years too late, just a different climate and a media that cannot get away with the level of complicity they displayed in 2004. They're still trying to though. Good thing there are so many blogs on the Internets to counter the MSM's BS.


A lot more here.

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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. So...
Edited on Tue Nov-20-07 09:20 PM by Seabiscuit
One May 4, 2004 press conference which "raised significant questions" about the Swifties without more...

One August 17 press conference in which several swift boat veterans "rebutted the charges" of the Swifties" without more...

One ad called "Rassman" announced on August 19...

Another ad called "Issues" announced on August 22 which "addressed the Swift Boat group's attacks"...

A letter to Bush that never got delivered...

You know, I recall the 2004 campaign, and I don't recall seeing much more of a response by Kerry than that. I couldn't believe that with all the coverage the Swifties got in the media that Kerry didn't come after both the Swifties and the media giving them all that attention with all guns blazing - lawsuits, media blitzes, more press conferences where Kerry waves his documentary proof at the cameras, etc., etc.

Two press conferences (only one by Kerry personally) and a couple of response ads seemed then and still seems like a really weak, tepid response. Kerry's response seemed weak to me then and still seems weak to me. I recall feeling confused about what really happened, not convinced of who was telling the truth, because Kerry seemed to almost wither in face of these liars, allowing them to remain on stage throughout the rest of his campaign without a strong and convincing counter-attack.

If I were in his shoes I would have gone after them fast and furiously in the media from day one, and would have recruited everyone I know to assist in my blistering attacks on those Swiftie bastards. I also would have gone after the media for promoting the Swifties' lies.

Since he didn't then, he's stuck dealing with it all these years later, when it really doesn't matter to anyone any more.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. The liars
held one press conference in May, which was ignored because the media was presented with the facts immediately. They ran three ads in August. The Kerry campaign responded to the ads in several ways. The problems was the more than 400 hundreds news segments in the span of a month. That was an intentional ambush and not easily countered, especially when they were being challenged by the campaign, and did it anyway. The campaign also filed an FEC complaint.

It's easy to say the response was weak, but look at all they did to counter the actual SBVT lies, which amounted to three ads.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #60
102. Why didn't Kerry, a lawyer, file lawsuits against both the Swifties and the media
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 02:10 AM by Seabiscuit
for spreading those lies? He could have gotten temporary injunctions against the media preventing them from promoting the Swifties' lies while the damage suit progressed.

The Swifties were guilty of libel, a print/media form of defamation. When the media spreads their lies they are equally guilty of publishing the defamatory material, and can also be stopped in their tracks by court order.

I recall seeing those ads on both sides, and since Kerry never put forth any real documentary evidence, I was left scratching my head about what had really happened in Vietnam, and if Kerry were to be believed, why wasn't he willing to defend himself more vigorously with real proof, and why didn't he take all those assholes to court? It's not as if he couldn't afford to. A campaign ad is not proof of any kind.

In the present scenario, why hasn't Kerry arranged for a formal contract with this Pickens creep, with a neutral third party to decide the matter? And why hasn't Kerry ever sued all of these creeps? If he's telling the truth about his Vietnam experience, and says he can prove it, he should have an air-tight case against both the Swifties, Pickens, and the media that smeared him in 2004. Right now, he's making Pickens look bad, but he's also making himself appear a bit frivolous.

I just don't understand Kerry on this issue any more than I did when, after it was proven beyond any doubt that Saddam did not possess WMDs, Kerry still falsely claimed he represented a threat to the U.S. that justified invasion and occupation, and that he wouldn't change his vote in favor of the IWR (which he argued against in the Senate before voting for it).
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #102
116. This article by John Dean explains:
Scalia revealed that he felt the landmark1964 ruling in New York Times v. Sullivan was wrong. That decision held that when a plaintiff in a defamation lawsuit is a public figure, such as a government official, the plaintiff can only prevail if he or she can show the statement was made with "actual malice" - a problematic phrase.

The requirement of "actual malice" means that the person publishing the defamatory statement must have done so with one of two states of mind: Either he knew the statement was false, or he published it with reckless disregard to whether it was true or false.

Simple negligence, then, is not enough under New York Times v. Sullivan: "Reckless disregard" requires that there had to have been a compelling reason to prompt taking some care before making the statement.

In practice, the "actual malice" standard means that the plaintiff usually loses. It's virtually impossible to prove with clear and convincing evidence (as is also required when the standard applies) that the publisher of the false statement either knew it was false, or published it despite good reason to more fully investigate the matter, thus recklessly.

Snip...

The constitutional law of defamation is a disaster. It is nearly incomprehensible. It is unfair. It is unjust. And it is long overdue for a correction. Sadly, I could randomly select dozens upon dozens of cases to make the same point the Lohrenz case makes.

Scalia is correct: Everybody should be able to protect their reputations. But not until New York Times v. Sullivan -- which literally changed the law of the land overnight -- is reversed, will that ideal be a reality.

Hopefully, Justice Scalia was giving us a hint of coming changes at the Court, when defamation cases are heard. At a minimum, the Court ought to make clear that only true public figures are deemed public figures for defamation law - for current law only encourages the victimization of private persons. Better yet, the Court should chose a more realistic standard than "actual malice" - one under which even public figure plaintiffs who are lied about, can get justice.

link


Such lawsuits aren't decided purely on evidence, they are mostly about intent. A lot of what the liars allege is their opinion, and Kerry would have to prove they are lying intentional.


Your last point about Saddam is completely false. Kerry never said Saddam represented a threat to the U.S. that justified invading Iraq.

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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #116
157. I'm familiar with the Sullivan case, and with the "actual malice" standard.
I studied it in law school. And that standard does *NOT* mean "that the plaintiff usually loses." And it is patently untrue that defamation law "is a disaster", "incomprehensible", " unfair" or "unjust". And it is certainly not true that It appears that you know just enough of a smattering of the law to have a cynical contempt for the legal system. I happen to agree with the Sullivan ruling. It only affects defamation cases where the person allegedly defamed is a public figure, and it's a just distinction for numerous reasons.

The Swifties made statements putting them in places and times to witness stuff which was impossible because they were never there at those times. Their allegations had nothing to do with opinion. They clearly falsified the factual record. Undoubtedly, Kerry can prove that.

So why did they lie in public about it? They were paid to do so by a right-wing group. This was no mere case of negligence, or even reckless disregard for the truth. It was clearly a case of intentional lying with one purpose in mind - to damage Kerry's reputation enough so that he'd lose the election. Case closed. End of story.

Kerry *did* say *numerous times* during his campaign that he thought Saddam was a threat to us, and that the Iraq invasion was justified. He just said he'd go about managing the war differently. You can't wipe out my recollection of the campaign that easily.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #157
159. Their entire claim is based on their position that
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 03:23 PM by ProSense
the full records have not been released. They continue to make that claim. Is that an opinion or fact, and how do you prove intent?

Kerry never once said the invasion was justified. He has said he would have used the authority differently. He maintained that was was a last resort and only if the threat was imminent. Can you provide a link to a statement that the invasion was justified?



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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #159
160. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I haven't kept any links to the swifties or to Kerry's statements. I'm just operatiing from memory, which has always served me well.

So I don't know where you're getting your assertions.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that the Swifties' "entire claim is based on their position that the full records have not been released." The claims I recall them making were that they were present at certain times and places where Kerry supposedly did something heroic and they described something entirely different about Kerry's behavior. In other words, they made factual claims about being eyewitnesses to events. Such claims are not questions of opinion, but of fact. Whether or not entire records from the military have been released to date is irrelevant. They have made the factual claims. If provably untrue, and Kerry has again recently said he can prove that what they said was false, that again is a question of fact, not opinion. They didn't just come out and express an opinion that they didn't agree that what Kerry did deserved this medal or that medal. That would have been an opinion. They claimed that Kerry didn't do what he and other supporting him claimed he did. That's a factual assertion.

Kerry never retreated from his vote in favor of the IWR (until something like mid-2006), which gave Shrub the authority to go to war. He did say he would have handled that authority differently (and he had several different muddled versions of what he meant by that) but only in the tactical sense, not in the strategic sense. He never opposed the invasion.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #160
163. That's inaccurate:
In other words, they made factual claims about being eyewitnesses to events. Such claims are not questions of opinion, but of fact.


Many of the liars were not even in country with Kerry. More on the lies

Again your comment about not opposing the invasion is incorrect.




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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #163
164. Don't look now, but you just proved my point.
Edited on Thu Nov-22-07 01:23 AM by Seabiscuit
I pointed out that they're making factual claims and not merely stating opinions. As you correctly point out, "many of the liars were not even in (the) country with Kerry". I didn't take the time to read your entire link of the Pickens interview, but the part at the beginning quoting the Swifties in their ad demonstrates my point - that they're saying Kerry didn't do what Kerry said he did, and one of them even said "I was there" (when he wasn't).

I think you're going around in circles by now.

So I'm not even going to bother clicking on the invasion link. I'm really not interested at this point. This is all getting pretty tedious and very boring.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #102
120. Kerry put forth 140 pages of Naval records
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 09:04 AM by karynnj
They were given to the media and were up on his web site for over a year - starting in April 2004. (I first looked at them when others on the Kerry blog used them to find the answer to the all important question of what color eyes he had - as some people were saying green, some blue. They're hazel, but the records themselves were fascinating - and uniformly positive.

As a public figure, the standard for libel and slander is extremely high. Kerry could disprove every tiny detail and still lose. The way they compiled the SBVT hurts Kerry too - they had all these pawns sign notarized statements. I am not a lawyer, and watching shows from Perry Mason, to LA Law to Law and Order, doesn't count, but it would seem those statements afford the leaders the ability to say that they believed what they wrote. They could lie that they acted in good faith believing these things.

Kerry NEVER said that he would have invaded - he said often that he wouldn't have. The Grand Canyon story continues to shift - it never was on invasion but the vote. It is pretty clear that the "if" part was either not said or not heard. There is a good chance the media sabatoged Kerry here.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #120
148. Hmmm...
I didn't know he had 140 pages of Naval records on his website in April, 2004. I was banned from posting there after urging his campaign to do something about the Olympics. So I quit visiting. Unfortunately, putting out something on his website doesn't exactly get the word out to anyone other than his supporters. It's no substitute for the media blitz I was talking about, and no substitute for a lawsuit.

I disagree with your assessment about the libel claim he possessed. Being a public figure would in no means diminish his chances of prevailing in court against a group of people spreading provably malicious lies about his military record in the MSM. I am a lawyer. Signing a notarized statement means signing under penalty of perjury that what you state is true. That has nothing to do with any subsequent pretense that they actually believed their own lies, which is simply not credible. These guys were saying they witnessed things in 'Nam they could never possibly have witnessed. I believe Kerry had a slam dunk case in court against these bastids, and refused to pursue it out of political expediency, perhaps because of how the MSM might portray his lawsuits. Afraid of what the MSM might say. Sounds like the whole problem with the dem leadership in Congress since Shrub stole the Oval Office.

I also did not say that Kerry said that he would have invaded. I was referring to his Tim Russert interview, given well after both the U.S. and U.N. inspectors determined there never were any WMDs in Iraq since 1991 when the U.N. inspectors destroyed the last of them. Russert asked Kerry point blank about the current state of knowledge of lack of WMDs in Iraq: "Knowing then what you know now, would you still have voted in favor of the IWR?" Kerry answered "yes" and added that he thought the invasion was justified because Saddam represented a present danger to the U.S.A. He didn't say why he contended that, and Russert didn't press him. He then said he voted for the IWR to get it before the U.N. None of his answers made any sense whatsoever.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-23-07 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #148
171. Could you provide a link to the Russert interview
I think you are refering to the Grand Canyon comment - where the exact question was not recorded. Kerry's answer is the one he consistently gave on the IWR vote, when there was not "if you knew" part - he did not say the invasion was justified.

Could the sworn statements protect O'Neil and the other leaders? That was what I was trying to ask - they could say that their own actions were based on the sworn testimony of others. Not to mention, it was August - how quickly could a libel case by finished by and wouldn't it create havoc in the campaign?
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Gonnuts Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #102
142. Very good points ...
Indeed there are a lot of "whys" concerning this whole story.

I've always been of the impression that our entire election process in a total sham from start to finish to begin with. A Dog & Pony Show the elites put on to give the people the impression they have a say in what goes down. One only has to ask why out of 330,000,000 people we get two that went to the same school and were members of the same Skull and Bones would be running against one another? What are the odds? What are the odds that out of the same number we might have only two families (if indeed Clinton gets the presidency) running this nation over the past 26 years?

I would say rather slim unless you understand that groups like Bilderberg that meet every year in secret, made up of the top 120 or so elites in government, industry and media, who basically pick who will lead where, which wars will be fought, and which economies will fail or gain then it starts to come together.

If voting could change things, they'd make it illegal.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #142
158. Yeah, you have a point - most good things are illegal. :)
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
51. Clark and Cleland led the counter against the swifts for Kerry. They DID a great job, but the
corpmedia had no interest in letting that counter be the last word - there would never be ENOUGH because newsmedia wouldn't LET it be enough.

Read Vyan's thread in the Video Forum - he has a very comprehensive rundown of what happened.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #38
56. If he "should " have been the nominee,
he should have won the primaries. Kerry did respond in 2004 - and Wes Clark supported him. This was T-Bone's offer. Kerry chose not to ignore it - as various RW people were claiming that if no one did - everything was true. Kerry's letter is great - but in fact this is not funny - but deadly serious. If you don't think these clowns will go after ANY candidate, you're crazy. With Kerry, they proved that it didn't matter if you had actually lived a pretty clean life - they'll make stuff up.

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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
70. Payback is sweet. I for one am feeling vindicated instead of the
helplessness that I felt when we could do nothing to stop the lies. I do not think the country was ready to listen to anyone telling the truth in 04. It took Katrina to open their ears.
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mrbluto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #19
97. Dripping with bias
Have to say that the way your post is phrased compromises it's credibility. (IMHO)

And yours.

Kerry's "sin"?

Not appreciating that many in the MSM would stand idly by and/or lap up the SBVT line.

He was trying not to credit their attacks. He gave too much credit to the MSM Brownshirts and to the general public frankly.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
135. Next time you're seeking a promotion
get into a high-profile shit fight with an old rival, maybe even tangle your employer in a lawsuit, and see how that works for you.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
20. Hahahahahaha!! That's called being taken behind the woodshed
and spanked!!
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
22. I wish Kerry would just slap T. Boone Pickens
Edited on Tue Nov-20-07 06:37 PM by Botany
During the 2004 election I met one of Kerry's crew from his swiftboat ...
long story short.... a mine went off in the river which caused one of the
crew to go into the water .... the boat then started to take fire from
shore .... Kerry had the boat turn around and go pick up the wounded
man ..... Kerry got hit in the shoulder with some shrapnel but still
crawled out on the front of the boat exposing himself to fire ....
Kerry ordered his gunner to return fire and pulled the wounded man
up onto the boat which saved his life. For this he got a purple heart
and a bronze star.

Pickens I am sure know this story but put his $ into the swiftboats
along w/ ACVR, American Center for Voter Rights, which spun lies
about all the democratic vote fraud in 2004 .... he needs slapped.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. And why it's highly unlikely Kerry would ever turn away from a fight even when
he knows he'll take hits. He's not wired like that.

He was betrayed by the DNC.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. I supported John Kerry then, and I still do.
You are absolutely right.

The DNC bailed on him

Hell, CBS fired Dan Rather over him.

These "Swift Boat" liars deserve to be drawn and quartered, figuratively speaking.

The man should be POTUS. Period.

Like Al Gore, he was screwed.
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Plucketeer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #22
132. Seems as tho
Pickens should be awarded a Black Heart medal. Wonder what war he served in?
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
23. Way to go John! We know he'll renege... but we need to keep standing up to these bullies.
We love you John.
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
24. smacking the made in china stuffing outta that dimestore cowboy
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Tab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
25. I don't know
I'm glad he's calling "bullshit" but it also seems like he's trying to prove he's still relevant.

John, we don't care about this NOW, we needed you to do this FOUR YEARS AGO.

I don't question John's courage, or his service to the country, but this ship has sailed.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #25
39. Considering he knows more about Pakistan, Iraq and Iran than any other
Edited on Tue Nov-20-07 07:34 PM by blm
lawmaker in DC, and ESPECIALLY how the problems were started and nurtured by decades of BushInc corruption, I'd say he BETTER be relevant to you.
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Tab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. I may be missing something in his background
but how did he magically become the top middle east expert in congress? This is the first I've heard of this.

Regardless, I have a lot of respect for him, and he's married to a smart cookie of a wife too, but why are we arguing about Swift Boats now? Why did he effectively lie down four years ago during the SBVT assault, and then compound the matter after all the voting irregularities and just stand down?

I'm just unclear why this is an issue now.

I would like, if you can show me (not as an aggressive challenge, but I'm curious), to know why he's the #1 expert on Pakistan, Iraq, and Iran. I've never seen this attributed to him, so I would like to know.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. You didn't know that it was Kerry who uncovered IranContra and BCCI and CIA drugrunning?
Edited on Tue Nov-20-07 08:01 PM by blm
The truth is the entire DC powerstructure has been set against Kerry for over two decades and including many in his own party.

Jackson Stephens and Marc Rich were named figures in IranContra and BCCI investigations - so, yes, the powerful elite working to keep Kerry out of the oval office involves BOTH parties.

Jump onto a Pakistan thread or a BCCI thread when they pop up.

Here's one from yesterday.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. Here is some
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #40
59. He is the chair of the near east and the middle east subcommittee of the
Edited on Tue Nov-20-07 09:30 PM by karynnj
Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He recently held a very disturbing hearing on Pakistan. Other than Biden, I can't think of a Democratic Senator who is given as much credit on foreign policy. (In 2004, he chaired a different committee - eastern asia.) He always was one of the top foreign policy Democrats - he and McCain were often paired on Sunday talk shows. Do you remember the first debate with Bush. His recommendation of what to do on North Korea was denigrated by the press - but, after trying everything else, the Bush people did what Kerry recommended in that debate and it is what brought progress.

As to Iraq, the ISG largely recommended what he had recommended since 2004. Kerry's Kerry/Feingold is pretty much the Democratic plan that got 51 votes as Feingold/Reid. Here is a link to a video of some Biden comments on Kerry's value as a co-sponsor to his soft partition bill. (Note Biden did not get adequate support on that until he made the determination of the actual partitions and the roles the state versus central government played part of what the recommended summit to get rid of Kerry's objection to the US drawing the lines. (Both Biden's comments and Kerry's speech are in the videos at this link http://www.kerryvision.net/2007/09/biden_gives_props_to... - the Biden comments are short if you are serious about what his role is.

Earlier this year, Kerry was on a panel covering the middle and near east at Davos as the sole person not from that part of the world. What was clear was that Senator Kerry was very well respected for his intelligent suggestions and comments. The thing that is clear is that Kerry has a more coherent view of foreign policy than almost any other Senator. This is something that came naturally to him - Madeline Albright quotes his 1966 Yale speech as an early example of cultural sensitivity in dealing with other countries.

BLM is also alluding to is that Kerry spent 5 years untangling the rat's nest of connections to prove that BCCI was involved in laundering drug money and aiding global criminal and terrorists. He continued his investigation until his committee was ended. He then tried to get the Justice Department to work on it and when that failed he took it to Morgenthau, a DA in NYC. Even then, in late 1992 he put together a list of 20 things that needed further investigation that he presented to GHWB and Clinton. Number 1 was to determine how A. Q. Khan, funded by BCCI was able to evade the nonproliferation rules and build a nuclear bomb.

(Here is a 1991 article on BCCI. ) Kerry was the first to push the investigation and he was instrumental to closing it - OBL's bank.) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,973481...
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
91. this is about the 2008 election
It's important to neutralize groups like this so that swiftboating doesn't happen to the next nominee. Kerry isn't just doing this for himself. He's not like that. He's timed it so that it has the maximum power to knock down any potential smear-mongers in the upcoming year. He has been and continues to be very loyal to the Democratic party and is always supporting other Dems. He also loves this country and wants to make sure we get a Dem as president next year.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
41. John Kerry is a United States senator and a Democrat.
Every single Democrat in Congress is relevant, and Kerry, with his decades of experience and seniority, is especially relevant.

Until people like Chicken Pickens are humiliated into stopping what they do, the buying and selling of the United States of America will continue until there is nothing left but bones for the buzzards to chew.

Kerry was treated unfairly in 2004 and he's still being treated unfairly. When is enough enough?
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Cybergata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #25
124. The Ghost of this Ship still remains, and . . .
similar stunts will happen in this election. John is doing this for the people who are running now. John is reminding people in the U.S. of the depth of deceit the other side can sink to. We Americans often deny our History, and just keep falling for the same lies. I thank John Kerry for what he is doing. He is drawing attention to just how dirty the Repubs can play in order to win.
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MsRedacted Donating Member (263 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
27. Thanks for posting Rick. Those of us who are too busy to keep up with every
Democrats blogs really appreciate when things like this get cross-posted over here at DU.

I hope the Senator sent a copy of this to the media.



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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
28. ROFLMAO "a man of your word, not all hat and no cattle. " is an insult to GW!!
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road2000 Donating Member (995 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #28
141. I was struck by this phrase
in exactly the same way.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #141
162. Bush is also afraid of horses! Some "rancher" all hat filled with bull LOL
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Cant trust em Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
31. Let's hope that Kerry doesn't renege on busting him out
This is good, but it will be great when I hear about it on the yahoo front page when I (and millions of others) see it when I'm checking my e-mail. I hope for this to hit critical mass faster than pictures of Paris Hilton's naughty bits.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. Don't count on Yahoo or any other media outlet to publicize this.
The media is owned by the corporations. They like having Republicans in power.
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ralbertson Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. Trust me, he won't.

Can't speak for the time laggage on the traditional media getting the word out -- it was a late-afternoon news release going into a holiday break when nobody was expecting anything from a Senator, I suspect -- but the astute amongst you will note that both DU and then dKos beat them to the punch this time. (Which is, at least from a netroots-centric standpoint, exactly as it should be... *grin*)




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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
33. Why does Pickens hate paralyzed veterans?

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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
34. Great letter, Johnny
Bring it on Pickens. Show a smidgen of honor.

Mano a mano, if you are not a total republicon homelander chickenhawk backpedaling propaganda whore.
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percussivemadness Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
35. Really glad to see Kerry fighting back against these fascist liars
I mean if this goes on he could lose the election and we`d be saddled with Bush for another 4 years.

:sarcasm:

Peace
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #35
86. But the Dems are doing so much better!
A month ago Pelosi wanted to address an injustice that happened nearly 100 years ago. Kerry at least is in the right century.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #35
143. Glad to see Terry McAuliffe's DNC secured the election process in the 4years after 2000's theft.
OOOOP!!! Nope. Kerry won, but, the DNC let the RNC steal another election for Bush.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
46. Great letter Senator
Don't let him get away with the lies.

:patriot:
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
47. You are not running for president Kerry, take the bastard to court
and sue him for libel and slander

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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. I have always thought that they should have been taken to court
for slander. They were proven on several occasions to be nothing more than paid shills to bring out as much garbage as they could, and none of it was true, it was all lies and obfuscations. As soon as the election was over, Kerry should have taken the whole group, and the finacial backers of that bucket of swill to court.

I can't recall the head jerk of the SBVT, but he had never seen combat, called an Admiral a liar and a "traitor" for signing the award citations, and to top itall off, the creep was a REMF, (Rear Echelon Mother Fucker).

Anyway, Chicke-Pickens will try to get out of this as quickly as he can, With Scotty's revelations of lying for the WH, this will get swept under the carpet, but Kerry shold keep the heat on, and make sure Pickens pays up...the Paralyzed Veterans of America is great vets groups, they do some damn good things for those who have to suffer after greivous wounds. The worsty that could happen to Pickens, is that his ego will get bruised for about an hour after he pays up...

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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #54
74. The reason I want it taken to court is perhaps their might be punitive damages
People have sued for a lot less when their reputation was damaged with malice

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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #74
110. Call me "Old Fasioned", but I want this to go to court simply
because it will publicly expose many of the frauds the RW is composed of.

For me, it is not the money that may be involved, but rather the destruction of those that would use such tactics, simply because they have the money to spend on such things. I hear the RWnuts screeching like monkeys cornered in a tree whenever Soros or Buffet give money to a D campaign, yet there is hardly a peep when people like Pickens or Scaife dump millions into a mudfest.

I have to admit though, the "redistribution of wealth", via lawsuits, (proceeds going to charity and programs that aid the poor and downtrodden), holds a bit of irony, and brings a smile to my face.... :D
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #110
161. We are on the same page /nt
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FedUp_Queer Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #47
85. NOT
Will people PLEASE stop with the "sue them" attitude!! Especially, when there is NO slander or libel. Kerry is a political/public figure. Winning a slander or libel suit as a political/public figure is about 1 angstrom from impossible.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
48. I applaud Senator Kerry's efforts to force this blowhard
to put his money where his grandstanding mouth is... but I doubt the dishonorable Pickens will ever put his money where his mouth is. That said - the more publicity around the episode (thanks to Senator Kerry) the more there is one more drip, drip, drip in the public psychie about the BS tactics of the rightwing - and the less effective on the pbulic will be their attempts to "swiftboat" folks in the future.
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #48
64. and THAT
is why this is relevant

The numbnuts comments above about too little too late are what is wrong with this country. People raised on Sesame Street. "This ship has sailed"?!? bullshit

Pickens swiftboaters were part of the cabal that has usurped power from We the People. Thinking it is yesterday's news is idiotic. Oh, I agree it was and is frustrating that Kerry - or his 'consultants' (they should all burn in hell) miscalculated and decided the best campaign strategy was to ignore it. That was dumb, and a lot of us knew it. But the continuing orwellian doublespeak under which we struggle for some semblance of reason needs to be attacked aggressively whenever possible. I don't know what prompted Pickens to shoot off his mouth and make that claim/bet whatever it was - probably just bragadocio - arrogant rednecked knuckledragging braggadocio.

Yes, the battle should have been joined then and the country is worse for its not having been. But snide criticism of fighting back now is pure bullshit. I might even suspect the true political leanings of some of the posters above, except we're not supposed to do that on DU.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
49. Better late than never! Kick their ASSES!
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
52. T-bone T. Boone, John. He's an asshole that needs to be carved-up
Go get him.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
55. EXCELLENT...
...response, Senator Kerry! How dare he and the SBVT be so brazen as to brag like that in public. Take them to the woodshed, Senator! :7

And thanks, ralbertson, for posting this...it made my (very long) day. :patriot:
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ralbertson Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. And you have no idear....
Edited on Tue Nov-20-07 09:46 PM by ralbertson
... how happy I/we am/are to oblige you on this one, YvonneCA.

(P.S. -- Tthis ain't over yet, neither. Watch this space.)


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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #62
72. Eyes...
...glued...to this space. :7
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BadGimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
58. Don't hold your breath John.
Edited on Tue Nov-20-07 09:18 PM by BadGimp
Texans don't always come when you call their bluff

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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #58
136. Excuse me?
Some are quite willing to. If they have cattle instead of hat.
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winston61 Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
61. Anyone who lives in Texas can confirm
that Pickens is a gold plated, USDA inspected asshole. The kind of wealthy Texas shit heel who laughed and whooped when Kennedy was shot in Dallas in '63.
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Wash. state Desk Jet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. George W. Bush Learned How
Edited on Tue Nov-20-07 10:05 PM by Wash. state Desk Jet
From every back peddeling blow hard Texas ever produced that lies like a snake.

And thats the truth.

It is when those lies are said by one who is truely lower than snake shit himself ,that,s what pissing in the pool is. And that,s just where the buck stops or never starts.

Easy pickens ,ain,t it? Like a bird in hand over two in the bush.

Texas oil be damned.
And swift kicked right up the ass.
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #61
137. Many who live in Texas
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 12:47 PM by texastoast
have no idea who he is. They are not from around here.

On edit: Yes, he is a gold-plated asshole.
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World Traveller Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #61
165. Boone Pickens Goes After Texas Water
I posted this on another board. Seems very relevant to current current discussion and type of "character T Boone Pickens has. See below...

There are those who say fresh water may be the "oil" equivalent in the 21st century, due to population pressures, and rising temperatures/ increasing dessication in key areas of the world (example: current Australian drought). Some international corporations are already making water grabs.

Boone Pickens is, I believe, an early trend-setter and a very predatory one at that. I've lived in Texas over 30 years, and remember him as an early apostle of shareholder value in the early 1980's when he sponsored leveraged buy-outs in the oil patch, irregardles of the impact on the local communities or employees (also known as people). As we know, LBO's or Private Equity as they're called today, are essentially asset-stripping operations for the insiders driving the play.

God help if people like Boone Pickens start buying out water rights, the bills US citizens now pay for their mortgages, gasoline, food, etc. might pale in comparison compared to what they are charged for water.

And the neat trick Boone has executed here are the use of tax-exempt bonds and eminent domain.

Nov. 2, 2007, 3:24PM
Counting vote won't take long
Two hold key to $2.5 billion water pipeline in Panhandle

By MARK BABINECK
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

MIAMI, Texas Oilman Boone Pickens has been trying for seven years to move billions of gallons of water from underneath the northeastern Panhandle to urban Texas. On Tuesday, Alton and Lu Boone should put him one step closer to pulling it off.

Alton Boone manages Pickens' ranch in the region, and Lu is his wife. They're the only voters registered to approve Roberts County Fresh Water Supply District No. 1 and a $101 million bond issue in what may be the state's most unique election next week.

The plan by Pickens' company, Mesa Water, is simple: Purchase 400,000 acres in water rights, get a friendly supply district installed on a remote eight-acre plot in Roberts County that Pickens deeded to the Boones and three other employees, find a buyer for more than 65 billion gallons of water per year and build a pipeline to that customer.

The water rights are in hand, but the district is key to the $2.5 billion project because it can issue tax-exempt revenue bonds and use eminent domain to buy land anywhere in Texas.

Link:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...o/5266952.html
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
63. Senator Kerry ... we salute you, Sir!
:patriot:
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
67. K&R
Edited on Tue Nov-20-07 10:11 PM by politicasista
Sorry Kerry haters. :rofl:





:patriot:
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countmyvote4real Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
68. Better late than never. And nicely done, too, Senator Kerry.
I'm impressed.
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razzleberry Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
69. which Swiftboat ads were false ? .n/t
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. All of them. Take a peek (link). And say hi to Pickens and the rest of the liars for us.
Edited on Tue Nov-20-07 11:01 PM by FreepFryer
Just a snippet:

A major part of the SBVT controversy centered on the group's testimony. Among the first to question the first ad was Republican Senator John McCain, a Bush supporter, Vietnam veteran, and former POW. He said, "I condemn the ad. It is dishonest and dishonorable. I think it is very, very wrong".<47>

As a naval aviator in Vietnam, McCain had no firsthand knowledge of Kerry's service. The SBVT statements were accompanied by sworn affidavits, although one affiant, Al French, later admitted he had no firsthand knowledge of what he had sworn to.<48>

The first SBVT ad was contradicted by the statements of several other veterans who observed the incidents, by the Navy's official records, and, in some instances, by the contemporaneous statements of SBVT members themselves.

Several major newspapers were also skeptical of the SBVT allegations. For example, a New York Times news article stated, "on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth prove to be riddled with inconsistencies." <49>

ABC News's The Note opined, "the Swift Boat ad and their primary charges about Kerry's medals are personal, negative, extremely suspect, or false."<50>

Regarding the medal dispute, a Los Angeles Times editorial<51> stated, "Not limited by the conventions of our colleagues in the newsroom, we can say it outright: These charges against John Kerry are false." The editorial argued this position on the basis that "Kerry is backed by almost all those who witnessed the events in question, as well as by documentation."


No, we know who the liars are... The SBVT = Obvious, Amoral, Un-American Liars. And Pickens is the asshole with the money to fund their lies.

Thankfully, it's payback time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Vets_and_POWs_for_Tr...
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razzleberry Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. can you be more specific?
which one?
the basic contention of the ad is ...
the ad is false in this way.
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. I was very specific. (n/t)
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razzleberry Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. you wrote nothing
some reporter says this or that is false. who cares
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #79
89. You're missing your "sarcasm" smiley.
Or if you're serious, you're an idiot. The poster clearly pointed out numerous LIES in DETAIL.

If you were being sarcastic, I apologize.

If not - go away...
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VP505 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #69
83. Which of their ads
were NOT?
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razzleberry Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. when was Kerry in Cambodia?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #84
90. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
VP505 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #84
94. Kerry well could have been,
where they were officially supposed to be and where they actually were could well be different. Its also possible that Kerry was just plain mistaken about that, remember, they didn't have any of the highly accurate electronics available today. Not having been there with Kerry I can't say for sure one way or the other and neither can anyone else that wasn't there with them.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #84
98. In 2004, Brinkley said that Kerry was definately
in Cambodia in January or February 1969 (Hesaid one of these 2 months -the uncertainty is mine)

Various people pointed out in 2004, that given wheer Kerry started the day and the direction they went on Christmas Eve, it is very likely that they could have crossed the border - or at minimum place soldiers to cross the border. In his journal, he does not speak of borders - which would have been beyond stupid of him to do - but it is clear that he was very upset about something.

Historically it is true that the swiftboats crossed into Cambodia and that we bombed Cambodia. This was covert - I think until Nixon announced in May 1970 that we were invading Cambodia.

This entire thing comes from the fact that in the late 1980s, speaking against covert actions in Central America, Kerry in addition to speaking about the geopolitics, compared the soldiers' positions to the position he was in being ordered to cross into a neutral country.

This was not a case of claiming glory and given that it was around 20 years later - it is certainly not lying, but at worst, about 20 years later he was wrong on the date or if he might have been wrong in 1968 thinking he crossed the border when he was merely near it. The canals did not have big signs labelling the border. Being inaccuarte, if he was, does not mean lying.

Tom O'Neil, however did lie. He said that NO swiftboats ever went to Cambodia. He is however on tape with Nixon speaking of having crossed into Cambodia.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #98
122. It's really interesting to
Edited on Wed Nov-21-07 09:11 AM by ProSense
know that there are people who are supposedly Democrats who are willing to ignore the volume of evidence pointing to the lies in order to justify their own animosity toward Kerry.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #84
144. winter - he was carrying CIA agents in which is why you won't see records.
But count Christie Todd Whitman's husband as one of those agents.

She screwed up once on Jon Stewart's show and said her husband had met Kerry during Vietnam when they were on a boat in Cambodia.

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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #69
100. Here:
It's pretty specific.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Some old lies, some new lies.


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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
73. The Best Of Luck, Kerry! Getting
that Million Bucks for our Paralyzed Veterans from swifty pickens.
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Mozcram Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
76. Senator Kerry
Shows us how to communicate publicly regarding the lowest tactics, one way, at least, of responding to deceptive political smearing. He does not once stoop to that level,
but maintains his good character and personal honor throughout.

Anyone who would lie and manipulate in response stands out clearly from this.
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
77. Yay! I can not wait to watch this unfold!
K and R
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
78. 'Would have preferred to be 1st to recommend this post but I'll settle for
any place in line at all.

The ball's in Mr. Pickens' court. I think he's up against an extraordinarily sturdy opponent in this one.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
82. Boy if this was the old days we could be seconds....
to a duel. I hope Kerry drills that bastard right between the eyes.

Humm duel.....who was that crazy half/wit Senator that wanted to have one.
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #82
127. That half-wit would be Zell Miller.
Zell-out, as he is known, or sell-out Zell.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #127
170. I didn't want to mention the traitors name..........
he is not worthy.
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lakeguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
87. one word, snap! nt
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anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
95. How could any thinking person believe
anything thing a Texan says? In my opinion it is the asshole of the world.The worst thing I can imagine is having to live in that state.{or Florida} Apologies to DU'ers who are living in the hell called Texas.
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mlevans Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #95
125. On Texans
With all due respect, my brother-in-law is a Texan, and a more liberal Democrat you would have to go a long way to find. He supported Senator Kerry wholeheartedly, as do I and all my family, with the exception of my damned-fool brother, who thinks GWB is keeping the world safe from homosexuals and abortionists. You'll find liars and lie-believers in any state in the Union, friend. Personally, I think you've been listening to the wrong Texans.
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #95
139. Well, aren't you throwing out the baby with the bathwater?
Texas is not hell. It's just some of the people who are here are hell to live with.

I don't appreciate what you said at all.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
96. John needs to talk this up on TELEVISION.
John needs to go ON TV and say all this stuff if he really wants to make the guy sweat. A letter passed around on the internet is great- but I want more people to know about this.

I support JFK and I'm in ecstasy over him fighting these guys at all, so dont attack me or throw excuses at me for saying this.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #96
107. Spot on.
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DeeDeeNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #96
114. Agreed, but how does he say this on TV?
The mainstream media doesn't seem to be paying much attention to this. (How surprising!)
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #114
150. Has Kerry stated that major networks are denying him interview slots?
If he hasnt, then I will assume that he still has a degree of media access.

I cant imagine Wolf Blitzer et al turning down a personal interview or "debate" show appearance with Kerry. If that is the case though, I need to hear Kerry say so via Air America, email etc.
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Gonnuts Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #96
140. This sounds like ...
the perfect Olbermann Odd-Ball segment story. Let's hope he picks up on it.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #140
152. Why wait for them to "pick up on it"- shouldnt Kerry go on a show and say it himself?
Unless he is being "banned" from TV/Cable news show appearences- if that is the case, Kerry hasnt said so.
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Gonnuts Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
101.  A lot of different angles and emotions ...
One, lets just assume we all know 90% of everything on TV is bullshit and the other 10% is questionable. Kerry, if anything, was naive thinking that once he told the truth it would over-come the BIG LIE. Well, that's not only naive, it's questionable on several levels. But to be fair, the "bad guys"" do win battles - a lot - because of their brutal tactics.

And who wouldn't want to "stick it" to some ass-hole that one-up-ed you once before? And indeed, even if this turns into nothing but a media sideshow attraction it does serve a purpose exposing the ass-holes for the ass-holes that they are.

But, what gets me the most is the money. $1,000,000.00 - these guys throw a million dollars around like it was nothing. What rarefied air they breath, these movers and shakers, that control everything. And we wonder why we don't have a representative government?

Here's what will happen, this Pickens ass-hole will write a check to the vets, maybe not Kerry's, stating he doesn't want to put the veterans through the media circus Kerry is seeking. At least that's what I think will happen given the neo-cons propensity for flipping everything on it's head.

While all this is going on bill HR 155, that just sailed through congress, which makes both the Patriot Act and the Military Commission Act look tame, and is expected to swiftly go through the Senate will be made into law and we can all bend over and kiss our asses good-bye.
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CanOfWhoopAss Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 04:03 AM
Response to Original message
103. Make the swiftboat worms squirm Senator n/t.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
104. Go get em Senator
I only wish you would have stood up to these assholes in 2004.
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Maryland Liberal Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
108. There is only one way to settle this...
Hook both of them up to a lie detector machine
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #108
121. Or actually read the official Navy records
or ask the men actually there. Or look at the logical contradictions in the SBVT accounts. Or consider that in 35 years in public life, Kerry has never been shown to be anything other than intensely truthful.

Time magazine labeled him the most honest man in DC in the late 1990s.

The idea that this is a he said she said is part of the problem.
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Mad_Dem_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
109. Terrific response
Go get 'im, John!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
111. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #111
113. You're the reason why
the ignore function was created.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #113
147. Awesome. I'm hoping you use it. (nt)
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #111
117. Is this your opinion of Vets of the Iraq war also? n/t
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #117
146. Iraq is an illegal war and every killing there is a war crime (nt)
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #146
154. So all the soldiers in Iraq are war criminals? n/t
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tomg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #111
130. As a registered conscientious objector and a
war resister in the late 1960s and early 70s, I so strongly disagree with your statements. The honor - whether volunteer, draftee, or war resister - was that they made a choice that recognized that they live in a community. It might have been - by my lights - the wrong choice. It might have been - if you were a draftee coerced and out of a kind of helplessness or peer pressure. It might have been - if you were a co or an exile made out of pure fear. But they made choices. Our current president and his predecessor - yeah, Bill - were the ones who were dishonorable in this regard. To paraphrase Sartre, they chose not to choose.

Funny how most cos and most vets get along. I have never had a fight with a vet. I see the vets as a group at demonstrations and I sometimes want to ask if we Cos can join them as an auxiliary. That would be cool - Vets and COs against the war.

I have read similar statements you have made before on this issue, and I have kept out of it. I wish Kerry had been a better candidate -but he served his country by going, by speaking out and in his public service.

You just don't get it.
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Gonnuts Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #130
138. It is not uncommon ...
that those who have fought in a war are later the most vehement opponents of war. Your coalition of co's and veterans is probably not that must of a stretch.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #130
145. That's such a pile of crap
to serve in a such a war is to willingly participate in a war crime. The war was a borderline genocide. Future generations will see it as one of this country's most grotesque violations of human rights. No honor in Vietnam. None. No honor in Iraq either. The only honorable course of action in Iraq is to go to jail rather than serve.

You realize that that whole served the country bit didn't cut it in Nuremberg, right?
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tomg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #145
155. Just one last point
As somebody who faced jail time rather than serve ( my application was first turned down and then reversed - I don't even want to go through the details but I was scared shitless), and who later did - and will probably have to do it again - draft counseling, I understand your position, and I still disagree. I also believe that Vietnam was borderline genocide and that future generations will see it as one of our most grotesque violations of human rights. I also do not believe there is honor in fighting and in killing others.

But I do think there is decency and a good impulse in recognizing that we are part of a community and that we have obligations to that community and to each other. If 18, 19, and 20 year old, for the most part uneducated and poor kids are sent off to wars, and do so because - even if wrongly - they believe they are part of a community or because they don't think they have any other options, I am not going to call shots on them. I was able to become a co because I was college educated, because I was middle class, because I could write a defense and muster support. As far as others, I am going to try and educate them. I am going to continue to support groups like the Central Committee on Conscientious Objection. I am going to encourage resisters and offer whenever help I can. Frankly, I will take them over many younger Americans who are only called upon to go shopping.

From your posts I can only assume - if you are my age - either A) you were in or B) you actively resisted. If I am wrong, and you are much younger, then I can only assume you never were faced with that choice. I don't know you and I don't want to call shots on you. How about this: people change and grow.



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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #155
156. No one has any obligation to a community that forces them to kill others
period. No one *needs* to be a certified objector. Either you're against the war or you're for it. There is no middle ground. No grey areas.

I'm generation X and I never would have served in the military.
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
112. Give 'em hell Sen. Kerry!
I love that he has the RW chickenshits on the run!!

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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
119. Good for you, Mr. Senator
T. Boone Pickens is not a man of his word. He is a vindictive, opportunistic weasel. The moment he realizes that you can't be fooled, he turns on you and attempts to take revenge. Just ask the good people of Amarillo, Texas.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
123. Would like to see Kerry get some time with Keith Olbermann
We've got to nail this asshole, T Boone bullshit.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
128. Isn't the T bone doing both...that is, back peddling and back pedaling?
He is, after all, peddling a lot of lies.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
129. Love it
Go, Sen. Kerry. Tan his hide.
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Gothmog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
131. T. Boone is a coward and will not play
T. Boone is a coward and a liar and will not dare play in a fair fight. He will hide from this challenge like a coward.
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Plucketeer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
133. Rip 'em
a new one, John! Virtual Waterboarding, I say! :kick:
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
134. Right on, John
We got your back! :yourock:
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
151. Well done!
If only he were that unequivocal in advocating for the rest of us, and as eager to challenge the even bigger lies.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-21-07 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
153. Kick that cowardly sniveling RW liars ass!
I'd like to, glad to see Kerry is going to put these cowardly liars in their appropriate place.
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 03:34 AM
Response to Original message
166. Ann Richards lives on. And good for Kerry, for calling out Pickens.
:)
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
167. Kickin' for...
...my President. Happy Thanksgiving, Senator Kerry! I am thankful for the sacrifice of our troops, on this Thanksgiving and on Thanksgivings past, that allows me to live in a democracy. :patriot:
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-22-07 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
169. LOL. That's one damn fine piece of writing. Care for some crow, Mr. Pickens? nt
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