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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:37 PM
Original message
Parents [hundreds] ordered to court for kids' shots
Source: ap



Parents ordered to court for kids' shots

By MATTHEW BARAKAT, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 3 minutes ago



UPPER MARLBORO, Md. - Hundreds of grumbling parents facing a threat of jail lined up at a courthouse Saturday to either prove that their school-age kids already had their required vaccinations or see that the youngsters submitted to the needle.


The get-tough policy in the Washington suburbs of Prince George's County was one of the strongest efforts made by any U.S. school system to ensure its youngsters receive their required immunizations.

Two months into the school year, school officials realized that more than 2,000 students in the county still didn't have the vaccinations they were supposed to have before attending class.

So Circuit Court Judge C. Philip Nichols ordered parents in a letter to appear at the courthouse Saturday and either get their children vaccinated on the spot or risk up to 10 days in jail. They could also provide proof of vaccination or an explanation why their kids didn't have them.


Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071117/ap_on_re_us/shots_g... ;_ylt=Ag9PkVMY.4tDXtYnZuUPSxOs0NUE
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good, unless there's a medical reason, all kids should have their shots
I know the DU anti-vaccine cadre will soon be showing up, but this is a case of public safety. It's also a case of your child's safety. There's a reason why the deadly, swift heartbreak of polio no longer terrorizes this country, or why kids don't routinely die from diphtheria, etc. Don't want to get the children vaccinated:?" Fine. Go buy an island someplace and live there.

My mother is a pediatric nurse, and this astounds her. I think it's clueless and naive at best, and criminal at worst.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Those that do not vaccinate are "free-riders" on those that do
If even a relatively small percentage (I have heard 10-15%) do not vaccinate, this has the potential to lead to new epidemics.
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
121. As witnessed by the really bad measles epidemic....
Edited on Tue Nov-20-07 02:43 PM by AnneD
we had here in Houston in 1989-90. Older un vaccinated kids (kids normally don't get their MMR shots until after they are a year old) managed to spread it to the younger kids-where it causes greater developmental defects-blindness, deafness, sterility.

Everyone doesn't want their kids to get a shot until there is an epidemic and then it is to late. You never have this argument in third world countries. They know first hand that it is worth the risk in order to save their children from needless suffering.
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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. If your kid is vacinated you don't have to worry, do you?
Come on..we're over vacinating children...to date they're immune systems are battling 0ver 100 antigens....when baby boomers contend with less than 30.

And we wonder why A.D.D. and autism is epidemic?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #23
42. There is no connection to AA and autism -- oh brother, here we go
And, what the snotty question? I care about EVERYONE'S children, and I'm also old enough to remember kids in braces from having Polio, and a neighbor who lived in an iron lung.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
117. Probably Because Of
all the Mercury and crap they put in the Vaccines.
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #117
122. They took that out...
(thimesol) years ago. Those studies are still debated but no one wanted to take a chance. I'd question the pollution levels in our environment before I worried about the vaccines.
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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
25. More information here
Many Vaccine Booster Shots Unnecessary: Study
Wednesday, November 7, 2007; 12:00 AM

WEDNESDAY, Nov. 7 (HealthDay News) -- Americans may be over-vaccinated against some diseases, according to a study that found the duration of protective immunity for many vaccines is greatly underestimated.

That means many people may be getting booster shots even though their immunity levels are adequate, the researchers say.

Based on the findings, it may be necessary to reevaluate timelines for vaccinating and revaccinating Americans against disease, said the Oregon Health & Science University researchers.

For this study, they analyzed 630 blood samples from 45 volunteers to determine each person's level of immunity against measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, mononucleosis, tetanus and diphtheria over an extended period of time.

"The goal of this study was to determine how long immunity could be maintained after infection or vaccination. We expected to see long-lived immunity following a viral infection and relatively short-lived immunity after vaccination, especially since this is the reasoning for requiring booster vaccinations," Mark Slifka, an associate scientist at the Vaccine and Gene Therapy Institute, said in a prepared statement.

"Surprisingly, we found that immunity following vaccination with tetanus and diphtheria was much more long-lived than anyone realized, and that antibody responses following viral infections were essentially maintained for life," he said.

more....

===============================================
WASHINGTON, Nov. 16 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ --
OPPOSE MARYLAND VACCINE ROUNDUP: Expect Dangerous Reactions When Children Are Treated Like Cattle

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons today condemned the "vaccine roundup" executed in Prince Georges county Maryland this week, and promised to do everything it can to support parents who refuse to immunize their children.

"This power play obliterates informed consent and parental rights," said Kathryn Serkes, director of policy for the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS), one of the few national physician groups that refuse corporate funding from pharmaceutical companies.

more....
===============================================
We recently had our 13 yr old tested for her 'antibodies strength' and found she was still doing just fine and no shots were needed. She had a almost fatal reaction to vacinations when she was 3 yrs old. Since then, no doctor would force us to risk that kind of reaction.

My family has over active immune systems...we can't handle the all those antigens. But if the govt had their way, they'd force my family to take the vacinations unless a 'near fatal' or fatal response occured. We have to fight these 'forced vacination laws'. Our lives do depend on it.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #25
43. Just keep on fooling yourself that vaccines aren't necessary
Because, the OP is about being vaccinated.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
49. Your situation is exceptional..
You are an statistical outlier.

the anti vaccine cabals are endangering other children by not immunizing. I have visited places where preventable diseases kill people. There is no reason for a child to die of a preventable childhood disease.

My wife works in the medical profession and there was a spike about 5-7 years ago in these diseases because children of migrant laborers were not being vaccinated. Mumps was showing up in schools. The state became more proactive and this stopped.

My point is that unless a documented medical condition counter indicates vaccination they should be uniformly given. It is a public health issue and not a political issue.

The idiot in the UK who tied MMR to diseases has been discredited, charged, and his findings dismissed as bad science.

The idiocy professed by the anti vac. people is similar to the anti polio people in N. Africa. Their ignorance kills people.


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Maine-ah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #49
99. we're having a mumps outbreak here
AUGUSTA, Maine Maine health officials are issuing new vaccination recommendations for mumps after the states first outbreak since the 1980s.

The Maine Center for Disease Control and Prevention said there have been seven confirmed cases since September, and another one to two dozen possible cases.

Public Health Director Doctor Dora Anne Mills has issued an advisory to K-12 schools, colleges and universities, and hospitals asking them to review and update mumps vaccine records for students and employees.

http://news.mainetoday.com/apwire/D8T0RDF81-322.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Niccolo_Macchiavelli Donating Member (641 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
90. There are many ways to strenghten Immune system
Having the normal (flu?) birth shot ang the polio, tbc vaccines since.. school (gawd a while ago).

But we weren't vaccinated for the childhood diseases such as measles, chickenpox, mumps..au contraire... when a child in the neighbourhood had it the parents deliberately had their children "contaminated", to "get over with it". Worked fine so far... i never got the diseases again ;-)

A disease i miss in the listing here is the scarlet fever, which was quite unrelenting as it rebounded several times wenn i was a child. the school had to be closed down temporarily because the children got reinfected time and again.

Vaccsines yes... for the worst of diseases which are crippling and have a high lethality, such as pox, tbc, polio, etc. im all for it.

But not for "nuisance" diseases, don't need no stinking chemistry medication for every headache and much less in advance.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. You don't need every vaccine out there.
The government is taking more of our liberties away.

I don't give a damn less if I'm in the minority here, which I am, but this is wrong.
This Judge needs to go blow Osama!
:argh:
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Where in that article does it
say that you need "every vaccine out there"?

Parents are required to take minimal steps to protect their children's health, as well as the health of those who truly can't receive the vaccines for medical reasons.

Surely you don't want to go back to the days of epidemic childhood diseases like polio?
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. The schools are entitled to create an environment that is free of
contagious pathogens. However, the solution should be that the children are suspended until the provide proof of vaccination, not that the parents are jailed.
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Flora Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. I agree
that jail is over the limit. Keeping the children out of school would be the answer.

Vaccination is a good thing, history proofs that. The poster who used the term *free rider* hit the nail on the head. The parents who don't vaccinate their children know that they go to school among relatively disease free children, therefore feel no worry for their health on that concern..
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. Children are required to go to school, it's the law
They'd be breaking the law if they set up a situation that kept kids out of school indefinitely. If parents don't want to vaccinate their kids, then home school.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. And then send all those little unvaccinated, home-schooled kids...
to church, where they can spread disease over a whole faith-based community! :crazy: Think the National Science Foundation would fund the research to discover if faith works as well as a vaccination to prevent certain diseases?
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. "either get their children vaccinated on the spot or risk up to 10 days in jail"
With the parents in prison - the state will have custody of the kids and force them to be vaccinated anyway.

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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Mother Russia here we come!
:puke:
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
108. 'Cause we voted in Stalin...?
'Cause we voted in Stalin when the first modern mass inoculation was carried out to prevent polio?
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. "It's cute. It looks like their parents are dragging them to church," the judge said.
The judge noted the unhappy looks of some of the kids in line waiting for vaccinations.
"It's cute. It looks like their parents are dragging them to church," Nichols said.


How long before he forces them to drag their kids to church?

"It's cute. It looks like their parents are dragging them to get vaccinated."

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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. good. -- the vaccines do way more than keep one individual disease free. nt
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. Good. Kids need vaccines.
Parents need to get their kids vaccinated.
Cut and dry.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. Jesus Christ! No wonder Libertarians are skeptical about "Liberals"
I can't believe the apologies on this thread for the government threatening to jail parents and take them away from their kids(and vice versa).

Perhaps a ruling that the kids couldn't come to school at all, ifthat was felt to be necessary.

But jail?

From this government?

Gleefully/willingly embraced by so-called Democratic "Undergrounders?"
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Mother Russia it is. It was this kind of nanny state crap...
that SOB's like Reagan were able to use against the left quite well. These posters are the fringe left-wing.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Will this be the arguement when you are being forced to get a "chip" . . . ????
These are authoritarian solutions which do not acknowledge that at some point, the "remedy" does great harm to a large number of people.

I know parents are really frightened of these vaccinations ---
Naturally, most children will be OK ---
However, a growing number will not be OK ---

These are very difficult decisions for parents and they should have public support and understanding ---

One of the problems seems to have been giving kids shots in large numbers ---
some parents are simply asking for longer time frames between shots ---

Ignorning parents, their worries, concerns and observations is not humane ---
and not the direction we should go in ---




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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. We agree that authoritarian solutions are wrong.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
45. Links?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #45
57. Links to what --- ??? ????
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #57
109. I'm thinking the requested links are for mandated chip implant laws...
I'm thinking the requested links are for mandated chip implant laws...

:shrug:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. I don't know what fringe you are
but trust me, people who oppose vaccines are the fringe, left right or otherwise. Nobody is screaming nanny state over vaccinations. Except you.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #21
38. I don't oppose certain vaccines.
Such as Tetnis, Polio, MMR..
but why Chickepox?

And yes, you are the FRINGE (of the left).
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #38
98. Ever had accute SHINGLES?
My fellow baby boomer brother does, and they SUCK.

The PREVENTION: get vaccinated for Chickenpox. Varicella is NOT a "nuisance disease."
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Pakhet Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. you ever heard of a 3yr old with shingles???
that's what my niece has since getting the chickenpox vaccination
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
50. I doubt anyone opposes ALL vaccines, or even the overall concept ---
However, when such great harm to large numbers of children begins to accrue,

I think we have to stop and question the vaccines and the methods --

We cannot simply dismiss the parents and override their instincts, their observations

nor their concerns.


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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. There is no factual documentation
that shows great harm to children. There is universal support of childhood immunization in the medical community.

This is basic public health and REQUIRES participation.

These diseases do exist in other nations and do kill people. Due to air traffic and other factors that increase the chance a person in the us may come in contact with a person who is shedding the measles virus is higher.

Ongoing improvements can be made to the vaccination system but dismissing it is not only stupid, but would lead to the deaths of many children.
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ChrisCat Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #52
103. I remember dragging my semi-conscious child to the ER
after her MMR shot and having her put in an ice bath. Almost every time my children have had immunizations, they've become ill. They've suffered dangerously high fevers, but also have had rashes and severe bone and joint pain. And every time I'd take them to the doctor or ER, the doctor would claim it wasn't because of the shot. I waited until the last two were older before starting their immunizations and they seem to have done better, although the baby was broke out in blisters for six weeks after her DPT shot. I don't think doctors want to believe that any of this has been side effects from their vaccinations, so I don't think it does get documented. Every one of my children now has an auto immune disorder which they will have to live with for the rest of their life, and I will never know if it was a result of having them immunized.
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #103
123. My guess is that....
they probably had an auto immune disorder to begin with and that it was exacerbated by the vaccines. Sometimes vaccines bring this out. I have dealt with many kids and while I recommend vaccinations for all-your children might have been an exception. I have seen kids that just don't react the way you think they will. I always recommend that you find a Doc that will give a medical exemption and most states to allow for medical exemptions. And there is nothing wrong in waiting-just make sure they have vaccines when the start school, when they would most likely be exposed.

But rest assured, even if your children do have an auto immune disorder-you have afforded them some protection against these common childhood diseases. If they were exposed to the actual disease, I think their fate would be more deadly.
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MUSTANG_2004 Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #52
111. Actually, vaccines have caused serious problems
The benefits usually far outweigh the risks, but vaccines can certainly cause great harm to children. For example, the live polio vaccine causes polio in about 1 of 750,000 cases. Now, that is a small percentage, but for the few people a year who were GIVEN polio by their doctor, it's a pretty high cost. I believe that would meet the requirement of causing "great harm to children." (The live polio vaccine doesn't seem to be used in the US much now, but is still routinely used in 3rd world countries).

Besides that, there's the fact that until 1963 polio vaccines were contaminated with the SV40 virus. As best I can tell, the medical community is still divided as to how serious a problem it is, but at least some research indicates it can cause some very serious cancers. For many years, nobody knew that it was included in every polio vaccine.

I support the government's role in giving mass vaccinations when there are deadly epidemics sweeping the country, but the diseases we're talking about here are rarely life threatening. For these (chicken pox, mumps, etc), I think it's better to let the parents decide if the risk is worth the reward.

Before anyone writes me off as an anti-vaccine nut, I'll mention that my kids have all their required vaccinations, and, except for chicken pox, we would have gotten them all for them even if they hadn't been required.

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
44. Oh brother
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
85. I can't believe it either
how "liberals" are so in favor of turning over parental rights to the government. I know I don't trust those in charge one bit!
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
16. Good.
somebody has to make sure the kids of the woo woos and anti-vaccine nuts get their shots.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
17. Outrageous. Here's what Robert F Kennedy Jr says about mercury & autism dangers from vaccines:



Mercury-Laced Vaccines & Autism in Children: The Drug Industry Attack on Mothers


Published on Tuesday, June 19, 2007
by Healthy News Service


Back to Healthy News

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Attack on Mothers
By Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
The Huffington Post, June 19, 2007
Straight to the Source


The poisonous public attacks on Katie Wright this week for revealing that her autistic son Christian (grandson of NBC Chair Bob Wright), has recovered significant function after chelation treatments to remove mercury - surprised many observers unfamiliar with the acrimonious debate over the mercury-based vaccine preservative Thimerosal. But the patronizing attacks on the mothers of autistic children who have organized to oppose this brain-killing poison is one of the most persistent tactics employed by those defending Thimerosal against the barrage of scientific evidence linking it to the epidemic of pediatric neurological disorders, including autism. Mothers of autistics are routinely dismissed as irrational, hysterical, or as a newspaper editor told me last week, "desperate to find the reason for their children's illnesses," and therefore, overwrought and disconnected.

But my experience with these women is inconsistent with those patronizing assessments. Over the past two years I've met or communicated with several hundred of these women. Instead of a desperate mob of irrational hysterics, I've found the anti-Thimerosal activists for the most part to be calm, grounded and extraordinarily patient. As a group, they are highly educated. Many of them are doctors, nurses, schoolteachers, pharmacists, psychologists, Ph.D.s and other professionals. Many of them approached the link skeptically and only through dispassionate and diligent investigation became convinced that Thimerosal-laced vaccines destroyed their children's brains. As a group they have sat through hundreds of meetings and scientific conferences, and studied research papers and medical tests. They have networked with each other at meetings and on the Web. Along the way they have stoically endured the abuse routinely heaped upon them by the vaccine industry and public health authorities and casual dismissal by reporters and editors too lazy to do their jobs.

Many of these women tell a story virtually identical to Katie Wright's - I have now heard or seen this grim chronology recounted hundreds of times in conversations, e-mails and letters from mothers: At 2-1/2 years old, Christian Wright exceeded all milestones. He had 1,000 words, was toilet-trained, and enjoyed excellent social relations with his brother and others. Then his pediatrician gave him Thimerosal-laced vaccines. He cried all night, developed a fever and, over the coming months, this smart, healthy child disappeared. Christian lost the ability to speak, to interact with family members, to make eye contact or to point a finger. He is no longer toilet trained. He engaged in stereotypical behavior - screaming, head-banging, biting and uncontrolled aggression, and suffers continuously the agonizing pain of gastrointestinal inflammation.

After hearing that story a couple dozen times, a rational person might do some more investigation. That's when one encounters the overwhelming science - hundreds of research studies from dozens of countries showing the undeniable connection between mercury and Thimerosal and a wide range of neurological illnesses. In response to the overwhelming science, CDC and the pharmaceutical industry ginned up four European studies designed to disguise the link between autism and Thimerosal. Their purpose was to provide plausible deniability for the consequences of their awful decision to allow brain-killing mercury to be injected into our youngest children. Those deliberately deceptive and fatally flawed studies were authored by vaccine industry consultants and paid for by Thimerosal producers and published largely in compromised journals that neglected to disclose the myriad conflicts of their authors in violation of standard peer-review ethics. As I've shown elsewhere www.robertfkennedyjr.com >, these studies were borderline fraud, using statistical deceptions to mislead the public and regulatory community.

http://www.healthy.net/scr/news.asp?Id=9218

There are also serious dangers from the hepatitis vaccine:

In a resolution voting against mandatory childhood vaccines, members of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons stated that "children under the age of 14 are three times more likely to suffer adverse effects -- including death -- following the hepatitis B vaccine than to catch the disease itself." While Canadian statistics are sparse on vaccine associated adverse events, the VAERS adverse events reporting system in the United States offers the following statistics. To be sure, a similar trend would be expected in Canada.
http://www.vran.org/vaccines/hepatitis/vaccine-hep.htm

I was furious that my daughter's college required the hepatitis vaccine, and in the case of this vaccine specifically the risks appear to clearly outweigh the likelihood of a benefit.
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arikara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. The stats actually show that epidemics ended due to improved sanitation, and not vaccination...
According to the British Association for the Advancement of Science, childhood diseases decreased 90% between 1850 and 1940, paralleling improved sanitation and hygienic practices, well before mandatory vaccination programs. The Medical Sentinel recently reported, from 1911 to 1935, the four leading causes of childhood deaths from infectious diseases in the U.S. were diphtheria, pertussis, scarlet fever, and measles. However, by 1945 the combined death rates from these causes had declined by 95 percent, before the implementation of mass immunization programs.

Thus, at best, vaccinations can be examined only for their relationship to the small, remaining portion of disease declines that occurred after their introduction. Yet even this role is questionable, as pre-vaccine rates of disease mortality decline remained virtually the same after vaccines were introduced. Furthermore, European countries that refused immunization for small pox and polio saw the epidemics end along with those countries that mandated it; vaccines were clearly not the sole determining factor. In fact, both small pox and polio immunization campaigns were followed by significant disease incidence increases. After smallpox vaccination was being mandated, smallpox remained a prevalent disease with some substantial increases, while other infectious diseases simultaneously continued their declines in the absence of vaccines. In England and Wales, smallpox disease and vaccination rates eventually declined simultaneously over a period of several decades between the 1870s and the beginning of World War II. It is thus impossible to say whether or not vaccinations contributed to the continuing declines in disease death rates, or if the declines continued unabated simply due to the same forces which likely brought about the initial declinesimprovements in sanitation, hygiene and diet; better housing, transportation and infrastructure; better food preservation techniques and technology; and possibly natural disease cycles. Underscoring this conclusion was a recent World Health Organization report which found that the disease and mortality rates in third world countries have no direct correlation with immunization procedures or medical treatment, but are closely related to the standard of hygiene and diet. Credit given to vaccinations for our current disease incidence has simply been grossly exaggerated, if not outright misplaced.

Vaccine advocates point to incidence rather than mortality statistics as evidence of vaccine effectiveness. However, statisticians tell us that mortality statistics are a better measure of disease than incidence figures, for the simple reason that the quality of reporting and record keeping is much higher on fatalities. For instance, a survey in New York City revealed that only 3.2% of pediatricians were actually reporting measles cases to the health department. In 1974, the CDC determined that there were 36 cases of measles in Georgia, while the Georgia State Surveillance System reported 660 cases. In 1982, Maryland state health officials blamed a pertussis epidemic on a television program, D.P.T.Vaccine Roulette, which warned of the dangers of DPT, but when former top virologist for the U.S. Division of Biological Standards, Dr. J. Anthony Morris, analyzed the 41 cases, he confirmed only 5, and all had been vaccinated. Such instances as these demonstrate the fallacy of incidence figures, yet vaccine advocates tend to rely on them indiscriminately.

http://www.vaclib.org/docs/myths.htm
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
33. Thanks for courageously posting this. In time, we'll look back...
...and see the ignorance (not to mention the greed) that drove the whole vaccination approach -- before medical enlightenment put an end to the practice.

I was thoroughly vaccinated as a young army brat -- at age four before going to Korea, again at age 12, before a move to Germany. In spite of a vaccination, I had pertussis at age four. My parents had no choice except to submit me (and themselves) to a round of vaccinations each time we left the country. A soldier and his family live under "martial law," in a manner of speaking.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
46. Oh dear God -- I bet that's a surprise to Polio and Small Pox
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. thimerosal has been removed
from most childhood vaccines and is only in those that are given when children are older, or primarily adults, like the flu vaccine. Your daughter wasn't under the age of 14, unless she's a genius, and hepatitis is very serious and much more prevalent in adults than you would think.
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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. No it has not been removed...they're lying
"Persons with an allergy to eggs or Thimerosal (preservative in the vaccine) need a prescription from their physician to receive the flu vaccine others do not."

Last Drive-Through Flu Clinic Is Nov. 18

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. "only in those"
given to older children or adults. Like the flu vaccine. That's what I said.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #22
32. So a little thimerosal for older children or adults is okay in your book?
And do you really think RFK, Jr. is part of "the fringe"?
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
89. On this issue, yes, he is the fringe
there's no evidence vaccines cause autism.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #89
106. There's no evidence you are willing to take a look at! nt
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TalkingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #22
37. And all the other crap that people have severe reactions to? Have they taken all that out too?
Having known people who ended up hospitalized because the nurse LIED and said she was given a vaccine with no gluten in it (probably in the form of MSG. MSG has been shown to cause brain damage in laboratory animals.) , I am dubious about the safety and efficacy of entire process, from creation to injection.

Based on federal recommendations an 18-month-old-child could receive 22 shots of 12 vaccine in 32 doses.

Read a few of the inserts from those injections and tell me this is acceptable.

http://www.vaccineawareness.org/concerns.htm

"IVAC is concerned with the cross-species in the culture mediums, i.e., chicken embryos, guinea pig cells, monkey kidney cells. SV40, implicated in many cancers, was in the polio vaccines from 1955-1962"


Measles, Mumps and Rubella (German measles) Live virus Vaccine

M-M-R II, vaccine package insert summary, Merck & Co., Whitehouse Station, NJ October 2003

Ingredients

-Attenuvax: live measles virus from Eders weakened Edmonston strain grown in chick embryo cell culture;

-Mumpsvax: Jerry Lynn (B level) strain of live mumps virus grown in chick embryo cell culture;

-Meruvax:Wistar RA 27/3 strain of live weakened rubella virus grown in WI-38 aborted human lung fibroblasts (connective tissue cells);

-fetal bovine serum;

-hydrolyzed gelatin;

-glutamate;

-human albumin (processed using Cohn cold ethanol fractionation,

-medium 199

-Minimum Essential Medium;

-neomycin;

-sodium chloride;

-sodium phosphate;

-sorbitol;

-sucrose;

Contraindications

-hypersensitivity reaction to ingredients including gelatin;

-no vaccination for pregnant women; unknown vaccine effects on fetus;

-pregnancy avoided for 3 months after vaccination;

-respiratory fever; active fever infection

Warnings

-elevated fever may occur after vaccination;

-remote risk of viral disease from albumin, derivative of human blood;

-theoretical risk of Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease (CJD);

-hypersensitivity to ingredients including eggs, neomycin;

-people with thrombocytopenis (low platelets resulting in bleeding and easy bruising);

Precautions

-epinephrine available for possible allergic reaction;

-transmission of rubella virus through breast milk;

-unknown if measles or mumps virus excreted in breast milk;

-deferred vaccination (3 months or longer) after transfusions or human immune globulin;

-live rubella virus excretion from nose or throat of susceptible people 7-28 days after vaccination, transmission through close contact , accepted as theoretical risk, not regarded as a significant risk;

-reports of individual measles, mumps, rubella vaccines may result in temporary depression of tuberculin skin sensitivity;

-no studies on effect of measles vaccine on untreated tuberculosis children;

-no vaccination for people with active, untreated tuberculosis;

-no evaluation for carcinogenicity, mutagenicity or fertility impairment;

-no animal reproduction studies;

-unknown if vaccine can cause fetal harm when injected into a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction capacity;

-pregnancy avoided for 3 months after vaccination;

-safety and effectiveness to established for measles vaccine in infants under 6 months;

-safety ad effectiveness not established for mumps and rubella vaccine in infants less than 12 months;

-M-M-R II given one month before or after other live virus vaccines;

-limited data, thus not recommended, for simultaneous vaccination with diphtheria/pertussis/tetanus (DPT) and or oral polio vaccine (OPV);


Adverse Reactions: arthritis, atypical measles, brain disease, convulsions, cough, death (reported rarely, no established causal link), diabetes, diarrhea, dizziness, ear, (middle infection) and nerve deafness, edema, eye paralysis, fainting, fever, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, headache, injection site-burning, redness, stinging, swelling, tenderness, tissue hardening, irritability, itchiness, hives, meningitis (aseptic), sclerosis (brain), nausea, nerve inflammation, nose inflammation, pitting of abdomen & thigh, pneumonia, rash, seizures, sore throat, testes inflammation, upper respiratory infection, visual disturbances, vomiting, weakness. More adverse reactions are listed.


(Pneumoccal 7-valent vaccine, Diphtheria Protein)

Prevnar, vaccine package insert summary, Wyeth Pharmaceuticals. Inc., Philadelphia, PA, January 2004

Ingredients:

-Streptococcus pneumoniae stereotypes 4, 6B, 9V, 14, 18C, 19F, 23F

joined to diphtheria CRM protein isolated from cultures of Coynebacterium diphtheria strain C7 (B197);

-aluminum phosphate;

-ammonium sulfate

-casamioacids;

-soy peptone broth

-yeast;

Contraindications

-hypersensitivity reaction to ingredients including diptherua weakened toxin;

-delay for severe or moderate fever;

Warnings

-no protection from diseases caused by serotypes unrelated to those vaccine;

-package contains dry natural rubber;

-Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) mentioned in specific studies;

Precautions

-fever and seizure reported after vaccination;

-acetaminophen may be given to reduce possibility of post-vaccination fever;

-given with caution for children on anti-coagulant therapy;

-unknown clinical relevance for inconsistent differences in response to pertussis atingens;

-unavailable immune data for MMR and chickenpox vaccine with Prevnars

-no evaluation for carciogeicity, mutageicity or fertility impairment;

-no animal reproduction studies;

-unknown if vaccine can cause fetal harm when injected into a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction capacity;

-not recommended for pregnant women;

-unknown whether vaccine is excreted in breast milk;

-not recommended for nursing mothers;

-safety and effectiveness not established for children below 6 weeks or over 10 years;

-no immune response studies on premature infants;

-not recommended for adults;

Adverse Reactions: apnea, appetite-decrease, breath-shortness, brocospasm, diarrhea, drowsiness, edema, face edema, fever, injection site: hives, itching, lymph system, redness, irritability, seizure, shock, sleep-restless, vomiting. More adverse reactions are listed.



My Favorite Master Artist: Karen Parker GhostWoman Studios
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
39. Increased and improved Santiation is what led to the massive...
decrease in illness in general, not vaccines.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #39
51. AND, believe it or not, lack of sanitary habits in hospitals still plays a large role in hospitals -
where patients there for other reasons pick up illnesses/viruses ---

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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. There will always be transmission vectors
however vancomycin has side effects, just like the MMR, but the side effects are generally preferred over death.

Vaccination is a wonder of modern medicine and prevents millions of deaths and deformities.

It is a blemish to our society that millions die from diseases in impoverished nations and we argue about the validity of the thing that could save them.

This is the impact of polio. This topic impacts real people, and it kills them.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. No one is arguing against SAFE vaccines ---
However, as I said elsewhere, our POLIO vaccinations in Africa in the 1960s? may have caused the AIDS epidemic --- ??? !!!


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. And coming back to the issue of sanitation, our hospitalis are still having difficulties with this!!
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #63
70. Bullshit
and this kind of garbage leads to death. The people who spread that information in africa, perpetuating polio are murders. Children who are dying now are their victims.

Plain and simple.

It is a direct danger to all of us when the voices of the stupid, drown out the voices of reason.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. Sanitation continues to be a problem in our hospitals ---
You could have heard that at a C-span hearing just last week ---

Whatever happened in Africa re the polio vaccine had nothing to do with researchers who LATER
questioned the outbreak of AIDS ---

Children who are dying now are victims of inaction and ignorance on the part of the US --

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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. I dont need C-Span
my wife is a practicing surgeon. Our friends are doctors. I have listened to details on this topic ad nauseum. Post op infection is a risk. It was a risk in the civil war, and is a risk in any hospital. From the best ot the worst.

The risk of post op infection is generally less of a threat than the reason you are there. Post op infection is treatable, and the causes for it are still present in all but the cleanest (unrealistic levels) of rooms.

So if you say, crash on your motorcycle and present leaking halo blood from your ears. If you do nothing you will die. If steps are taken to reduce intercranial pressure to prevent your brain from oozing out like toothpaste, you may live. If you live you could live a full and productive life. You could be paralyzed, or die of a post op infection. Your chances are still better than choice a, doing nothing.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
84. The best sanitation possible won't eliminate polio
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
83. So it wouldn't bother you if your daughter got hepatitis
:wow:
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
19. Cancer was practically unknown until compulsory cowpox vaccination began to be introduced!
Dr. James R. Shannon, former director of the National institute of Health declared,
"the only safe vaccine is one that is never used."

Cowpox vaccine was believed able to immunize people against smallpox. At the time this vaccine was introduced, there was already a decline in the number of cases of smallpox. Japan introduced compulsory vaccination in 1872. In 1892 there were 165,774 cases of smallpox with 29,979 deaths despite the vaccination program. A stringent compulsory smallpox vaccine program, which prosecuted those refusing the vaccine, was instituted in England in 1867. Within 4 years 97.5 % of persons between 2 and 50 had been vaccinated. The following year England experienced the worst smallpox epidemic<1> in its history with 44,840 deaths. Between 1871 and 1880 the incidence of smallpox escalated from 28 to 46 per 100,000. The smallpox vaccine does not work.

Much of the success attributed to vaccination programs may actually have been due to improvement in public health related to water quality and sanitation, less crowded living conditions, better nutrition, and higher standards of living. Typically the incidence of a disease was clearly declining before the vaccine for that disease was introduced. In England the incidence of polio had decreased by 82 % before the polio vaccine was introduced in 1956.

In the early 1900s an astute Indiana physician, Dr. W.B. Clarke, stated "Cancer was practically unknown until compulsory vaccination with cowpox vaccine began to be introduced. I have had to deal with two hundred cases of cancer, and I never saw a case of cancer in an unvaccinated<2> person."

There is a widely held belief that vaccines should not be criticized because the public might refuse to take them. This is valid only if the benefits exceed the known risks of the vaccines.

Do Vaccines Actually Prevent Disease?

This important question does not appear to have ever been adequately studied. Vaccines are enormously profitable for drug companies and recent legislation in the U.S. has exempted lawsuits against pharmaceutical firms in the event of adverse reactions to vaccines which are very common. In 1975 Germany stopped requiring pertussis (whooping cough) vaccination. Today less than 10 % of German children are vaccinated against pertussis. The number of cases of pertussis has steadily decreased<3> even though far fewer children are receiving pertussis vaccine

SOURCE: http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james.htm
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. Wonderful. People died young of diseases before they got old enough to get cancer
Thanks, but no thanks. Doesn't anybody do any genealogy around here? The death rate among kids wa horrendous before the 20th century.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
48. Can you believe this thread???
Sanitation helped decrease the spread of CERTAIN diseases, but it didn't "cure" it.

And, I think the sanitation in the suburbs during the Polio epidemics of the 40's and 50's wasn't like Five Points in the 1880's.

God, I'm hiding this threda... it's maddening me.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. How many "cures" are we chasing now? Prevention is a more intelligent response ---
ABOVE ALL --- DO NO HARM ---
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #53
81. Vaccination IS prevention n/t
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
47. And I didn't think this thread could get any more bonkers
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
59. We're destroying our immune systems and creating new cancers ---
We have thousands of cancer cells floating thru our body --
it's your immune system which protects you . . .

Animal fat stored on your body makes it more difficult for your immune system to detect cancer cells ---

What's the number now --- 3 out of 4 Americans will have cancer???

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
105. Where do you think the name "cancer" comes from?
I bet you're into astrology.

Where do you think the name for the constellation "cancer" comes from?
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
24. Another disgusting step towards fascism.
Those parents need to sue and if not sue, move the hell away! F*ck those nazi bastards! :grr:
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
27. i remember how hard it was for me to sign the waiver at the doctor's office
saying i understand the vaccines might kill my daughter and if it does i have to recourse. i wondered what the fuck was i doing to my little girl--it was horrible.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #27
41. My older brother had a severe reaction to a DPT vaccine...
and I have been mocked and vilified for even suggesting this.
To those who tell me that the DPT vaccine did not damage him, I wish his condition on you!
TURDS!
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #41
91. i know you weren't posting that specifically to me, because i didn't
say any such thing.

as a baby i had a bad reaction to the vaccines as well. my mother informs me that i almost died.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
54. Parents have to sign "waivers" . . . ??? ??? ????
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. You sign a waiver
for the majority of medical treatments. Informed consent.

You could be the one in a several million who has an allergic reaction to this drug, or you could allow you child to be destroyed by a preventable disease..

People die from taking antibiotics, bee stings, and shellfish allergies.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. ....obviously we have to get the "right to sue" out of the waivers .. .
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 12:39 PM by defendandprotect
if it's really only a tiny percentage of those being treated becoming ill, no problem for the companies financially ---

However, the public needs to know how many are adversely effected --

These waivers block that info ---

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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #62
69. No the information
is available from CDC in Atlanta. Your doctor will inform you of the risk involved with a medical procedure as well.

The waiver says you are aware that there is a risk and have made a choice to take it.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #69
93. Despite a risk --- when we have numbers as are rising with autism . . .
that's more than a risk --- that is evidence of improper monitoring of the vaccines ---

improper studies, etal ---

and, there should be provisions when it is more than a handful of problems that the companies

can be sued ---


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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #62
95. They can't take away your common law right to sue.
and yes I am a lawyer but I don't play one on TV.
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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
101. Signing a waiver on a Mandatory vaccine... um.. tell me I'm not the only person who see's the
problem here....
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. i can't remember if it said i wouldn't hold the doctor's office liable or
the vaccine manufacturer liable in the case of death to my child due to the vaccine. it was horrible.

i asked the nurse & doctor about this--said i didn't want to sign any such thing and was told no signature no vaccine.

if anything had happened to her i felt like i was giving them permission to kill her.
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chatnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #101
112. I was waiting for someone to say that.
Was thinking the same exact thing myself.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #101
118. Yup.
Mandatory means the Government should be responsible if something goes awry.

I would refuse to sign the waiver.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
30. However...(isn't there always a "however"?)...
...there are exemptions for religious reasons. So parents can be sent to jail if they refuse to force their children to have vaccinations (which aren't guaranteed to be mercury free), but one "Christian" can send his/her child to the same school without the required vaccination, and allegedly infect everyone else, because their religion doesn't buy into the idea of vaccinations. The logic breaks down right there!

Fear of autism from the mercury in vaccinations seems as valid a reason -- actually, a much *more* valid reason -- not to vaccinate as a religious exemption.

There is a great deal of research which questions the validity of vaccinating as opposed to strengthening the immune system. Big Pharma makes a mint from all the vaccines they sell.

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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
34. It's the jail part that makes it creepy
The power of the state can be just as scary as the power of the corporation.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. They're in bed together. I hope there's a vaccine to prevent...
...their making babies!
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
35. "Conventional wisdom" rebutted by modern look at vaccines
http://www.mercola.com/2001/dec/26/vaccinations.htm

Dr. Mercola's Comment:
Many people will not realize that Nature is one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world. I point that out to highlight the fact that the concern with vaccines is actually starting to be voiced by some well respected scientists.
Additional Comment from Dawn Richardson of PROVE:
Being healthy becomes an even more elusive goal if you primarily rely on vaccines to get there. When you read this article, keep in mind that children now receive as many as 39 doses of vaccines for 12 different viral and bacterial illnesses and there are literally hundreds of new vaccines in development.
It is also interesting to keep in mind that the bacteria strains chosen for inclusion in the pnuemococcal vaccine for children were specifically chosen because they are the strains that have evolved to be the most antibiotic resistant. It is very difficult to do fair and comprehensive risk/benefit analysis when there is so much about the unintended consequences of vaccines that have yet to even be studied.
More is not better - educated parents everywhere will continue to demand having options for their individual children and the legal right to exercise those options.
Related Articles:
Vaccine Links
Dispelling Vaccination Myths
The Vaccination Debate Goes Mainstream
A Summary of the Proofs That Vaccination Does Not Prevent Smallpox but Really Increases It

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Oak2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
104. Mind boggling...
"A Summary of the Proofs That Vaccination Does Not Prevent Smallpox but Really Increases It"

If this is so, aren't we in the midst of the worst smallpox epidemic ever?

Oh wait, smallpox is now extinct in the wild, due to an international vaccination effort.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. Mind-boggling "logic," yours! nt
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
40. This all stems from one moron in the UK
who is now been discredited. Wakefield is a cheat and if death has resulted from his unfounded crap, a murder.

My wife gets all the medical journals, I don't read them, but I have red the articles on this. All the journals are consistently supportive of childhood immunization.

The The Centers for Disease Control,the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences, the UK National Health Service and the Cochrane Library review have all concluded that there is no evidence of a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

His article has been retracted. He is charged with misconduct.

These sheeple morons endanger other children by not vaccinating their kids.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. How long has the medical community supported male circumcision --- ???
And, yet, finally the Pediatric community did advise against it --- ???

Oh, wait --- we now have still another fear-based reason to mutilate the new born --- AIDS!!


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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #55
65. Stay on topic..
millions die from preventable diseases. Not a few, millions. We live in a country that enforces public health laws. As an adult, if you are Jehovah's witness you can refuse care for yourself, you can not kill your child in this manner.

A child has the right to receive life saving treatment, no matter how ill informed the parent.

Be thankful you live here, you do not have to die from TB, or yellow fever, or any a disease that is easily prevented or cured.

We are alarmed, rightfully so because 4000 americans have died in iraq, 10 die from some random cold virus, but over a MILLION people die from TB yearly worldwide.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Suggestions that our medical community or all vaccines are safe have to be challenged ---
QUOTE --
All the journals are consistently supportive of childhood immunization.UNQUOTE

The medical community is not always right ---

And we have to consider a much LONGER term than a child not becoming ill right after the shots ---
we don't know what negatives may appear later when there are so many negatives immediately.

Our vaccines in Africa for polio may have triggered the AIDS epidemic there ---

And circumcision of male newborns --- continues on for no reason according to the Pediatric community.


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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. None of what you have posted re AIDS
is valid. None of it is supported by a single organization. If you are an adult, you should know better than to post something like that.

Denial of HIV and AIDS is a similar argument. Absurd but still there.

You have plenty of resources to draw on. You should use them.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Obviously, we're going to have to do a thread on this subject --- !!!
Many also think that HIV may be further evidence of deterioration of our immune systems ---

Meanwhile, what we did in Africa with polio vaccines is certainly under question ---

and linked to the AIDS epidemic --

At some point, I'll try to start a thread on that subject.


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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Be sure to cite accepted publications
like NEJM, Lancet, NFID, to post scientific fact.

Rense, some like with numbers in it to a blog are not good sources.

HIV/AIDS is a viral disease that attacks the immune system....
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Why don't you get a heard-start and do some reading about it ---?
The polio vaccine in some areas was grown in monkey glands ---

possibly transferring animal viruses to humans ---

that may be the source for the AIDS epidemic ---

Over a 20 year period there have been many articles on that subject ---


And, re "immune system" --- as we see with Global Warming . . .
our insanity re pollution and overpopulation of the planet which is obvious now --
coupled with the burning of fossil fuels --- industrial societies ---
has so contaminated our planet that it would be inane NOT to also question what
effect it may be having on our own immune systems.


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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. Please source your information
I am not trying to be rude but your comments are not cohesive. Years ago insulin was derived from animals as were many drugs.

You are not presenting any backing for your feelings. None.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #80
92. As I said . . . at some point I will gather info together on this questionable
vaccine program in Africa and the questionable outcome ---

MEANWHILE, as I said, there were many articles on this subject ---
you can certainly research it yourself --- google.

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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #66
97. so, you know more than the medical community i take it?
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #97
120. The Medical Community
does not know everything that it should.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #40
58. My grandmother used to talk about how scary it was for parents during the polio outbreaks in
local communities.

Any time a child ran a fever, especially in those communities where it was spreading, was cause for deep worry.

How about tetanus? My other grandmother, who ran a farm with my grandfather, had a family member, cousin, IIRC, who died from "tentany" or lockjaw.

No one who has children of immunizing age has any recall of what the protection is for.

MKJ
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Keep in mind, our "polio" vaccinations in Africa may have had something to do with AIDS --- ????
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. I truly hope you are being sarcastic
ignorance and religious belief was used to perpetuate stupidity. That has led to polio destroying people for no reason. Destroying children.

The WHO has saved tens of millions of people by immunization and treatment. They have wiped diseased from the face of the earth. Polio should be in that list.

AIDS transmission and the pandemic can be traced to religious reasons not to wear a condom.

I strongly suggest you pick up the phone and call the CDC in atlanta. Call a doctor and get an informed opinion. People will address your concern, if it is real.

The retransmission of these ideas in N. Africa to people who had no ability to make an informed choice led to death.

I see it as a global responsibility for western nations to participate in Africa's AIDS pandemic.

I could reference a movie Hotel Rwanda to motivate people. An african victim is told "you aren't even niggers, you are black africans, so the world does not care" People should give a shit because it can happen to us.

25% of a population suffering from a terminal illness in NOT acceptable. We OWE a continuing response to this.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. Some of the polio vaccines were grown in monkey glands . . .
this has nothing to do with religion --

but does have to do with medical stupidity --

Many suspect the AIDS epidemic was fostered in those vaccines ---

There have been many articles on this subject over the past 20 years ---

Rather than even "caring" . . . genocide comes to mind.



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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. Feel free to post from a real source at any time
until then I will discount everything you say.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #75
110. Do you have any links supporting that the polio vaccine started AIDS? n/t
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kitty1 Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
68. What if there is concern for potential health risks down the road...
some people feel there are legitimate dangers with some of these vaccines for future health concerns as a result of the serum ingredients.
Should parents not have the right to deny a preventative treatment if they feel the risk of the vaccine is more than the risk of getting the disease it protects.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. NO. They can move to a nation
like the sudan where there is no enforcement of immunization. They can then take their chances and see if their child dies.

They do not have the right to increase the risk to others by refusing a well accepted public health system

If people "opt out" they lay the groundwork for the return of these diseases. Just like they can not deny their child food, or medical treatment legally, they can not deny the child access to immunization.

Feelings are not the issue here.
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #68
82. Doctors publish articles in medical literature about the brain-damaging side effect of vaccinations

"The British National Childhood Encephalopathy Study had reported a statistically significant correlation between DPT vaccine and brain inflammation leading to chronic neurological damage,17 and that the UCLA-FDA study published in Pediatrics in 1981 had found that one in 875 DPT shots is followed within 48 hours by a convulsion or collapse/shock reaction just like the one my son had suffered. As I leafed through more than 50 years of medical literature documenting the fact that the complications of pertussis disease, or whooping cough, were identical to the complications of whole-cell pertussis vaccine, I was stunned. I felt betrayed by a medical profession I had revered all my life."

"It wasnt always like this. What is happening to the health of our nation? Could it have anything to do with exposing our children to more and more bacterial and live virus vaccines in the first five years of life, when the brain and immune system develop most rapidly? And could we be compromising the integrity of our immune systems by eliminating all experience of natural infection?

"For more than 100 years, doctors have been publishing articles in the medical literature about the brain-damaging side effects of vaccines. The mother of all vaccinesthe smallpox vaccine, created by Britains Edward Jenner in 1796was found to cause inflammation of the brain in one in 3,200 persons.13 After Pasteur began to inject patients with rabies vaccine in the 1880s, it became obvious that brain inflammation was a side effect that affected as many as one in 400 vaccinated persons.14 And by the 1960s and 70s, the medical literature was full of reports that the pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine was causing brain inflammation and death in babies getting the DPT shot.15, 16

"Doctors and public health officials were talking to each other in the pages of medical journals about the fact that vaccines could injure childrens brains, but those being vaccinated had no clue. Mothers taking their children to pediatricians to be vaccinated placed a blind trust in the complete safety and effectiveness of those vaccines.


From "Mothering" magazine, read more about a mother's horrible experience with childhood vaccinations:
http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/vaccine...

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DavidMS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #82
87. Given the severity of illness...
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 08:00 PM by DavidMS
In the case of small pox if the infection is survived the survivor will be horribly scared for life. For rabies, until very recently it was a death sentence. Now there have been a patient or two who survived due to very sophisticated (and expensive) medical care.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles
For Measles, the mortality rate for someone in good health is less than 1%, but a major outbreak will overwhelm the medical infrastructure . Which will needless to say lead to a much higher mortality rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumps
Mumps has a very low mortality rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubella
Very low mortality rate. But...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_rubella_syndrom...
But it causes serious medical problems if congenital rubella syndrome results. Definitely something to vaccinate against.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenpox
Chicken pox is not a serious disease, but if a pregnant woman is infected, birth defects are common.

Suggesting that vaccination should not be used given its benefits in preventing death and disability is something I would normally expect from a theocon. No one is suggesting that everyone should be vaccinated and there are many people who have conditions that prevent vaccination and need to be protected by vaccinating the entire community. So everyone else needs to be vaccinated.

We are only some 95 years out from the time that medicine was only 50% effective in treating the underlying problem (The Canon, review can nbe found at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/27/books/review/Pinker-t... ). And I am continually amazed but the bull-headed and deliberate ignorance of the scientific method, our understanding of the natural world (chemistry, biology, physics, the origin of the universe and life on earth, etc) and the use and misuse of statistics. We can't eliminate risk but we mitigate at least some of it.

In reading up on this article, I never realized how fortunate I am to have modern medicine. My grandfather died some 20 years before I was born from heart valve failure caused by childhood rheumatic fever which can result from an untreated strep infection. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strep_throat ) When I had a strep infection at the age of 7 or so, my parents made sure I took the antibiotic everyday and it cleared up without complications. It seems so natural because people are not dying of common ailments and injuries. We simply don't think of the advances.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #82
88. You are incorrectly citing a 30 year old study.
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 08:25 PM by Pavulon
and mothering magazine. Between JAMA, NEJM, Lancet and many other publications this is what we have...

Encephalopathy After Whole-Cell Pertussis or Measles Vaccination: Lack of Evidence for a Causal Association in a Retrospective Case-Control Study.

Original Studies

Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal. 25(9) :768-773, September 2006.
Ray, Paula MPH ; Hayward, Jean MD *; Michelson, David MD *; Lewis, Edwin MPH *; Schwalbe, Joan MS *; Black, Steve MD *; Shinefield, Henry MD *; Marcy, Michael MD ; Huff, Ken MD Ward, Joel MD +; Mullooly, John MD ; Chen, Robert MD Davis, Robert MD; The Vaccine Safety Datalink Group
Abstract:
Background: Whole-cell pertussis (wP) and measles vaccines are effective in preventing disease but have also been suspected of increasing the risk of encephalopathy or encephalitis. Although many countries now use acellular pertussis vaccines, wP vaccine is still widely used in the developing world. It is therefore important to evaluate whether wP vaccine increases the risk of neurologic disorders.

Methods: A retrospective case-control study was performed at 4 health maintenance organizations. Records from January 1, 1981, through December 31, 1995, were examined to identify children aged 0 to 6 years old hospitalized with encephalopathy or related conditions. The cause of the encephalopathy was categorized as known, unknown or suspected but unconfirmed. Up to 3 controls were matched to each case. Conditional logistic regression was used to analyze the relative risk of encephalopathy after vaccination with diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTP) or measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccines in the 90 days before disease onset as defined by chart review compared with an equivalent period among controls indexed by matching on case onset date.

Results: Four-hundred fifty-two cases were identified. Cases were no more likely than controls to have received either vaccine during the 90 days before disease onset. When encephalopathies of known etiology were excluded, the odds ratio for case children having received DTP within 7 days before onset of disease was 1.22 (95% confidence interval = 0.45-3.31, P = 0.693) compared with control children. For MMR in the 90 days before onset of encephalopathy, the odds ratio was 1.23 (95% confidence interval = 0.51-2.98, P = 0.647).

Conclusions: In this study of more than 2 million children, DTP and MMR vaccines were not associated with an increased risk of encephalopathy after vaccination.

http://www.pidj.com/pt/re/pidj/abstract.00006454-200609... ;jsessionid=HQzNZcq7D7rckL9ShpbQLHdLGxTY2DQzZYH11kz15dTCMr9lcJTy!-368808804!181195628!8091!-1
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #82
94. Could widespread use of vaccines be contributing to the trend of deteriorating health in children?
"Dr. Harold Buttram, M.D. writes in the Townsend Letter for Doctors about vaccines. He states that there is a serious trend of deteriorating health among North American children. Allergic disorders, such as asthma, are rapidly increasing both in frequency and severity. There is a pattern of sickliness among today's children that was unknown several generations ago. A majority of children are on antibiotics frequently or in some instances continually. With each passing year there appears to be a pattern of increasing crippling of the immune systems of our children. Surveys among teachers tend to confirm this ominous trend of ill-health.

"Live virus vaccines require incubation in animal tissues. The oral polio vaccine is incubated in monkey kidney tissue, and the MMR vaccine (measles, mumps, rubella) in chick embryo. Incubation of live viruses in animal tissue brings two formidable risks. The first is the danger of foreign viral contamination.

"In 1985 a simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV) very similar to the HIV virus was discovered in African monkeys. This, together with the fact that the earliest known cases of AIDS were near in time and location to polio vaccine campaigns in Africa, raises the question as to whether some mutation of SIV, for which the oral polio vaccine was the vehicle, could have been the original source of the AIDS epidemic. Articles have appeared reviewing this matter and appealing for further research into this vital question.

"Such research is more than academic. New SIVs continue to be discovered raising the possibility that there is a continued danger of viral contaminants finding their way into present oral polio vaccines.The second danger is that viruses are notoriously prone to the process of jumping genes, whereby the viruses may incorporate genetic material from the animal tissues in which they are incubated and subsequently introduce this animal genetic material into the child receiving the vaccine. In theory, this could set the stage for later immune disorders including autoimmune diseases.

"Many years ago Sweden banned the Pertussis vaccine because of these dangers. For similar reasons Japan delays the vaccine until after two years of age, whereas in North America, it is usually administered at two months of age. Both Sweden and Japan are credited with having the lowest infant mortality rates in the world. This fact would tend to discredit claims that the Pertussis vaccine is necessary to prevent an escalation of infant mortality in North America.

"Vaccination does not constitute immunity. Children vaccinated with MMR can still get measles and mumps. In October/November 1990, clinical mumps developed in 54 students, 53 out of those 54 were fully vaccinated! The Chicago Department of Health noted that of 186 Pertussis cases in Chicago in the fall of 1993, 74 percent were as up to date as possible on their immunizations. A large number of children are found to be sero-negative (which means they show no evidence of immunity in blood tests) four to five years after receiving the rubella vaccination. In another study, 80 percent of army recruits who had been immunized against rubella, came down with the disease."

source: http://www.life.ca/nl/49/vaccines.html
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
86. I see such vaccinations as part of the cost of living in a society such as ours.
If an individual gets the benefits of living in close proximity to other individuals, then the same must bear the costs.
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Tumbulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
96. Who pays for these immunizations?
We have a $5000 deductible insurance plan and so all immunizations had to be paid for out of pocket. At $150 per shot why would we vaccinate our daughter for something that only children in day care centers are at risk for? And why should we when we live on a farm and she did not go out in public until she was almost 6 months old? How dare all the vaccine proponents proclaim that all vaccines are necessary. Why are they being pushed at for 2 month old babies? Unless they will be in day care- why?

Polio, yes, DPT of course- on a farm tetanus is everywhere. But why the normal childhood diseases such as mumps, measles and chicken pox?

I see no rationality in the entire debate. The anti vaccine folks go over the top and the vaccine folks go over the top. This leaves any parent bewildered.

Unless the government will pay for each and every one of these mandated shots, then they better stay out of it. And jail time? Very frightening indeed.
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Beerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
113. Good.
The kids should be tested for exposure to nicotine too.
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boricua79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
114. look, if the parents don't want the shots for their kids
don't infringe upon their right to raise their kids as they want.

And what do we care. If they're morons and want their kids to be exposed to diseases that may harm them, so be it. I know it offends our sensibilities when morons are allowed to deny their kids medical attention (such as when religious nuts do not allow blood transfusions or other needed procedures due to their religion), but this is a free country, and even morons have right.

If their kids die of diseases, so be it.

As for my kids, THEY will be vaccinated. Nobody's rights get infringed...my kids live, they're kids die. End of story.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #114
115. Vaccinations are by no means 100% effective....
BUT, even if they are 90-95% effective, the chances of a local epidemic are decreased.

Also, some of us "Oldsters" with lousy immune systems don't deserve to be exposed to someone's kid with Pertussis because they don't believe in vaccination.

This is one of the little "drawbacks" of living in a society.
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boricua79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. i agree with your updated comments
and in light of the consequences, then I agree they should be FORCED to do it for the greater good of the society.

As long as you can present a good case for infringing on other people's rights, I'm for it. For example...I'm for banning smoking...because second-hand smoke kills. Some I'm for infringing on a smoker's right to a cigarette if it will save innocents' lives.

But, personally, I'm not going to really care about the welfare of their children if they themselves don't care. Some people feel it is their need to be "second mommy", and I don't feel so. Some kids will succeed, some will have been handed out a lousy set of parents, and they won't make it. Such is the way of life. Not everyone can be saved. Some will be our manual labor, some will end up being easy targets for military recruitment, and some will...gasp...DIE. This is REAL life.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-20-07 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #116
119. Vaccination is really not a "Nanny" issue.
Epidemics are avoided that way. I was a victim of the Scarlet Fever epidemic of the late 50's, and was very lucky. There were kids I knew who came out with heart defects or deafness.

I feel for the kids of stupid people, but in a country where stupidity is not a crime, well.....
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