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TalkingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 12:32 PM
Original message
Police to search for guns in homes
Source: Boston Globe

Boston police are launching a program that will call upon parents in high-crime neighborhoods to allow detectives into their homes, without a warrant, to search for guns in their children's bedrooms.

snip

In the next two weeks, Boston police officers who are assigned to schools will begin going to homes where they believe teenagers might have guns. The officers will travel in groups of three, dress in plainclothes to avoid attracting negative attention, and ask the teenager's parent or legal guardian for permission to search. If the parents say no, police said, the officers will leave.

snip

Critics said they worry that some residents will be too intimidated by a police presence on their doorstep to say no to a search.

"Our biggest concern is the notion of informed consent," said Amy Reichbach, a racial justice advocate at the American Civil Liberties Union. "People might not understand the implications of weapons being tested or any contraband being found."

Read more: http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/11/17/po... /



And the officers getting spiffy new uniforms to wear while they do this....brown shirts and jackboots.

My Favorite Master Artist: Karen Parker GhostWoman Studios
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Okay, with the problem of child-instigated crime, what solution would you suggest?
I don't dig the idea very much, but the problem is significant and something needs to be done, and I can't think of anything better right now.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. This is awful
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 12:40 PM by Mojorabbit
and I can bet that they are not going into white middle class homes. No way would I let them in. And I am sure those that refuse will be on a list. And if they find a gun, will the child be arrested, have a record? I see after reading it the child would not be arrested unless the gun was used in a crime. Can the child prove he owned the gun when the crime was commited? Do the parents have the means for a defense lawyer? This is a slippery slope like everything else they start. Next it will be to search the child's room for drugs.
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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. This is called a police state
I hope you can think of something better.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. How about "Fascist police state" -- I think you need the "Fascist"
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 01:53 PM by coalition_unwilling
adjective to make clear that this is not one of Jeanne Kirkpatrick's "authoritarian" juntas (ca. the days of Reagan when Kirkpatrick attempted to distinguish between right-wing regimes that we supported as "authoritarian" compared to leftist regimes that we opposed as "totalitarian) but rather a "totalitarian: state (or soon to become one).

Fascism is extensively covered in Robert Paxton's "Anatomy of Fascism" and Hannah Arendt's "Origins of Totalitarianism".
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
36. Its "Jack Booted Fascist"
What ass clowns searching with out a warrant

Obviously they are so fat they don't need donuts to occupy their time
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Presumption of Guilt
For each individual kid searched, which comes first? The gun? Or the search for the gun?


My apologies to DUers, I accidentally recommended this post by hitting the recommend link instead of the story link. :( Hadn't yet had enough coffee, I guess.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
43. The police sate operated by the "Truth Ministry" and the highly trained
"Thought Police" ... and that governmental department charged with the regulation and control of the affairs of a community, now chiefly the department established to maintain order, enforce the law, and prevent and detect crime.

The "Junior Police Department" is in the works. Boys from the local Boy Scouts of America are picked and recruited to snitch, spy, and tape transactions by those suspected of perverted activities.

USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA
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TalkingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. What would I suggest?
What we are all supposedly entitled to by our Constitution: Due Process.

Children committing crimes is diffrent from adults commiting crimes in what respect exactly? And if you can specifically delineate that difference, can it be applied to the congenitally retarded, the mentally handicapped, people who act out inappropriately due to a brain tumor that is increasing in size...... you catch my drift here...slippery slope.




My Favorite Master Artist: Karen Parker GhostWoman Studios
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. If the parent says YES, there is no lack of due process. They have
given consent. They are free to say no with no consequences.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You really believe that?
You think that that will just be OK with the cops if the adults say no to a search? That the cops won't try to "convince" the homeowners to change their mind? Or that the homeowners' names will not be put on a list of suspicious persons? Or that the police won't try to trump up some bogus charges so they can get a warrant?

The cops don't like it when people say no to them, and they have ways of getting what they want, especially when the "suspects" are not rich and powerful.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. I'm not addressing the issue of dishonest cops. I'm only addressing
the issue of whether or not a search with the parents' approval constitutes due process in and of itself.

We all know about the possibility of abuse.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. What of ignorance and the trained or habitual culture of command authority?
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 02:03 PM by SimpleTrend
Whatever other benefits and or transgressions these searches may or may not have, they will split individual family members against each other.

Perhaps that's the hidden intent.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I am only addressing the issure of whether or not a search with parents'
approval falls under due process. IMHO it's the same as if the parents had called the police themselves about a problem kid they thought might have a gun.

Police abuse is a separate issue.
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TalkingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I respectfully disagree with your opinion.
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 03:54 PM by TalkingDog
Legally, a room-mate or parent can allow police to search without a warrant if they are in the process of investigating a crime that has already taken place.

However, these are not the same as the circumstances you proffered (as if parents had called the police themselves) or even the same circumstances as the one I offered.

In the cases that lead up to these warrantless searches: There may be a crime or future crime that these kids might know about or might participate or have participated in. But it isn't legal (up until now) to search for anything related to those potential circumstances. The police aren't investigating people in relation to crimes, they are looking for weapons or other incriminating evidence in an area with a high youth crime rate.

They are merely casting a net by searching people, with the HOPES of turning pulling in a weapon or potential evidence and then HOPING it will be connectable to a crime they know about.

That is not Due Process. No matter how they want to spin it, it is not and should not be legal.


edited for verb tense (gave it a massage, relaxed it right up)


My Favorite Master Artist: Karen Parker GhostWoman Studios
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
38. Thank you for explaining that
so clearly. I was also confused about the "consent" part.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. I suggest PROBABLE CAUSE.
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 04:40 PM by rocknation
And what's to stop the kid from hiding the gun in ANOTHER part of the house?

If you can't protect us without also protecting our civil rights, you're the wrong person for the job.

:crazy:
rocknation
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leftrightwingnut Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. I suggest that parents search the room themselves.
WTF do you need the POLICE to do it for you????

Holy shit! Is this a real discussion or a put-on?

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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #24
37. I agree fully, but
It would appear that that is not happening.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. I can think of something better
Let the police spend their waking hours coming up with something else.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
33. How about spanking?
:hide:
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
34. I don't understand how this would be different ...
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 09:47 AM by davekriss
...for adult instigated crime. Why not ask a spouse if they can search the house for weapons? It amounts to the same thing, yes? Police, without probable cause (just the improbable cause that, well, there's been a rife of adult-caused crime in the neighborhood), ask any adult in the house if they can search it fpr weapons. We should allow this, you would say, because adult crime is a problem and something must be done.

N-O, I say.

On edit: How about asking the child if they can search the parents room for anything illegal, that will surely help stop the problem of adult-caused crime.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. You have got to be kidding me
The police are going to "ask" for consent?

And if the parents say no, I suppose that the police will just leave them alone, right? And their names and addresses won't go into some little database at the Boston PD?

The way to stop teenagers from having guns is through responsible parenting, not jackbooted thuggery by "law enforcement".
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. If the parents refuse to allow a search
and their child later commits a crime with a gun, can the parents be charged with obstruction of justice?

I'd bet that's what the visiting officers will allude to.

Talk about a slippery slope.

First they came for the terrorists
then they came for the juvenile delinquents
then they came for the parents who refused to allow a search of their homes.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. When armed men are at your door, it's very difficult to say no,
you can't come in. There's that whole "I don't want to die" thing.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. Haben sie Juden hier?
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 04:43 PM by formercia
Brown shirts going door to door.

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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. What Is Stopping the Parents From Policing Their OWN Homes?
Come on, folks. This is bullshit of the highest smelliest odor!
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sss1977 Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
14. the scariest thing about this...
is that there are plenty of parents out there that will say yes without a second thought.

How did we get to this point?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
17. I DO Not Agree with This
I just don't like the idea of any authority searching homes without a search warrant. I believe the parents themselves have jurisdiction over their kids and could easily search themselves without authorities involved. I do believe this is subverting constitutional rights.
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TalkingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Hi fascisthunter. Welcome to DU! n/t


My Favorite Master Artist: Karen Parker GhostWoman Studios
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #20
32. Thank You for the Welcome
Edited on Sun Nov-18-07 09:34 AM by fascisthunter
By the way, that is some very cool art.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
18. Congress voted for torture and warrantless searches
This shit in Boston is nothing more than the trickle down of tyranny down to the local level. What did you really expect?
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
23. Boston police officers who are assigned to schools...
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 05:00 PM by rocknation
will begin going to homes where they believe teenagers might have guns.
If they have a good reason to "believe" that, they should have no trouble getting a warrant.

The officers will travel in groups of three...
Three? But they could move fifty per cent faster if they traveled in pairs!

...and ask the teenager's parent or legal guardian for permission to search.
Are they required to give the parents a reason WHY they want to seaarch?

If the parents say no, police said, the officers will leave.
All three of them...sounds like a scare tactic.

And it doesn't answer the question I've been asking since Bush undermined FISA: WHY CAN'T THIS BE DONE WITH WARRANTS?

:crazy:
rocknation
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
25. Like they will leave even if they say no
Edited on Sat Nov-17-07 05:22 PM by alarimer
They wouldn't even leave me alone after the neighbors called the cops on me (for no reason other than they are assholes) and the cop insisted he had to come in, that I couldn't say no, because it was "domestic violoence" (I was there alone so how is that possible- well my asshole neighbor clearly lied). And I am not one of those people normally intimidated by cops.

I can't imagine that this will go over very well. Why not a gun amnesty program? Turn in your guns for something, I don't know what. Not a perfect solution by any means.
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lpbk2713 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
27. Chip ... chip ... chip ....



more of our civil rights being whittled away. All it will take is a rumor or a suspicion. More of the 'what have you got to hide' bullshit BushCo is notorious for. What surprises me is this is in Boston, though. I would have expected better.




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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. With Tom "The Tool" Menino as mayor?!?
"What surprises me is this is in Boston, though. I would have expected better."

No surprise at all.

This is exactly the kind of action to be expected from Menino/City of Boston and the BPD.
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kelligesq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
28. 3 cops - while one talks the others will push into house & say were invited -
that's the way they work. ACLU better be doing some good for a change instead of defending illegal lawbreakers.
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liberal renegade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-17-07 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
29. Not without a warrant !
No way, Jose.
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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
30. Make the Program available, but NO 'Door - to - Door' searches.
This is stupid...and it smells like social engineering to me.

Make the program available to mothers. Let the mothers call a social worker at the police station.

Unbelievable.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-18-07 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
31. huh, brick by brick, drop by drop...
and always for our 'safety.'

could we expect parental/guardian responsibility? nah. totalitarianism/authoritarianism always comes in the guise, from right or left, in the form of 'safety', 'security', 'cooperation'... and it takes little to co-opt such submissions into real tyranny
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
39. Bad idea.
If America pays attention, urban neighborhoods serves as the "demonstration" for "programs" that remove individual rights that the rest of the country can expect to eventually lose.
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Haole Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
40. As good as their intentions may be...
..this sets the stage for some really bad things... really bad. :-)
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
41. Is it Fascism yet? n/t.
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Wise Doubter Donating Member (458 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
42. How many "kids with guns" are going to keep them in the house now...
after hearing about this article ? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

IDIOTS !!!
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-19-07 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
44. Just say NO
Edited on Mon Nov-19-07 09:08 AM by Solly Mack
and I hope the parents all do.

Sure, kids with guns is a problem...but giving up so willingly the right to prevent entry into your home by police without a warrant? Tragic. Sad. STUPID.

It don't make a rat's ass worth of difference if you have nothing to hide...that is never the point.

You don't protect civil liberties by giving them away...





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