Gunmen fire on Venezuelan protesters

[Bacchus39]

Source: cnn

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- Gunmen opened fire on students returning from a march Wednesday in which 80,000 people denounced President Hugo Chavez's attempts to expand his power. At least eight people were injured, including one by gunfire, officials said.


A supporter of Venezuela President Hugo Chavez points a pistol at two opponents of Chavez Wednesday.

Photographers for The Associated Press saw at least four gunmen -- their faces covered by ski masks or T-shirts -- firing handguns at the anti-Chavez crowd. Terrified students ran through the campus as ambulances arrived.

National Guard troops gathered outside the Central University of Venezuela, the nation's largest and a center for opposition to Chavez's government. Venezuelan law bars state security forces from entering the campus, but Luis Acuna, the minister of higher education, said they could be called in if the university requests them.

Antonio Rivero, director of Venezuela's Civil Defense agency, told local Union Radio that at least eight people were injured, including one by gunfire, and that no one had been killed. Earlier, Rivero said he had been informed that one person had died in the violence.



Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/07/venezuela....

[papau]

1. not the first time the RW has attacked/shot at its own supporters so as to blame the left n/t

[Bacchus39]

2. uh huh, sure

n/t

[subsuelo]

6. it's happened before in Venezuela

[Progressive Friend]

13. Read: Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II, by William Blum

[EFerrari]

26. It isn't the first time. We have these guys on tape

doing exactly that. Shooting at people and then manipulating the media and blaming Chavez.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

36. So where's the denial from Chavez?

I'm waiting to hear him say that his own security forces weren't involved. If he's not saying it, I'm not buying it.

[Judi Lynn]

37. Haven't you read any of the articles? Even the corporate media sources indicate

police and "own security forces" are NOT ALLOWED ON THE CAMPUS. It's their law.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

38. Ah, you're right.

Blerg. Too early in the morning.

[superconnected]

124. could go either way.

Has before.

[BornagainDUer]

128. Ooooh. Looky at those numbers. So specific and large. Now compare

that to the "thousands" we are told about marching in anti-war protests in the US when tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands were actually marching. Ooooooooh, looky at that.

Right Wing shit for sure is this report.

[tom_paine]

165. How very true. Specific and large. I agree this sticks out like a sore thumb.

AP Bushiganda, although that doesn't make Chavez pure in all this.

[Socal31]

35. Wow...

what planet are you from?

[EFerrari]

115. The planet that follows events in Venezuela?

There's a link to the video in #99.

[BornagainDUer]

134. LOL! Nice one.

[BornagainDUer]

136. Jasocal?

[Andrushka]

3. The AP saw it, did it?

And they knew they were "Chavez supporters" huh? I'd trust AP reporting on Venezuela as much as I'd trust anything that came out of Dana Perino's mouth.

[Faygo Kid]

4. I like Chavez, but. . .

This is worth keeping an eye on. I give nobody a free pass.

[BreweryYardRat]

49. Exactly. Accountability is a requirement.

This could be some shifty black op, it could be the Venezuelan government squashing dissidents, or it could just be a couple of assholes too blind/stupid to understand that people have a right to disagree with the government's policies.

(Ironically, if someone shot up a Neo-Nazi or KKK march here and killed some of those assholes, I'd cheer my head off. Disagreeing with the government (any government, any side of the left/right line) is a long way from advocating mass murder of people just because they're different.)

[Socal31]

227. What do you mean?

Because he is a communist and called B*sh the devil at the UN, we should allow him to do what he wants. He can do no wrong. We shall defend him no matter what. Any negative news about him is CIA propoganda, and any positive news is gospel. *Enter Sarcasm .Gif Here*

[Pavulon]

5. Better Image...

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8SP4FF00&show_...

Shows person with para-military training with with a sidearm.

[jordi_fanclub]

12. Not a good advertising (to the anti-Chavez protesters)

Your image is very interesting... if you know the universities have autonomy in Venezuela.
(probably you know that in Venezuela the Police did not enter the University Campus)
And mainly because the panel above the door says: "Faculty of Economic and Social Sciences"

So, what you call "para-militaries" are probably... some "pacific" ANTI-Chavez "students".
EDIT: (hilarious because it's not a "smart" pic to publish on a ring-wing "news" website!
or maybe it is... considering the average frequent reader/fan of FOXnews et al.)

[Pavulon]

14. That person was instructed

on how to use that weapon. The person firing into the crowd there was trained by an army or police department.

[PassingFair]

235. Thank you, Dr. Frist! nt

[Andrushka]

15. Just been looking through Yahoo! images

That's the same doorway that the two students are pushing against in the original post. It would be very interesting to know the timeline: was the image on gunmen by themselves in the door taken before the image of the four men, one pointing a gun? If so, why would two unarmed men go and try and push against the door?

I dunno, after what happened in 2002, this smells of BS to me already.

[Pavulon]

16. Well somebody did get shot..

8 somebodies.. sure they did not shoot themselves in protest.

[Bacchus39]

18. the government is blaming the student protesters and the media

http://www.eluniversal.com/2007/11/07/refco_ava_ministr...


sorry, its in Spanish but there it is.

[Pavulon]

31. Like that Chris Rock skit

about crime. It is not the media shooting people...

(on edit: the act is of course racial commentary. that is nt the point of the post. The point was that the media is not shooting students after a anti establishment rally)

[Andrushka]

20. Well, yes

But for the AP to tell us they were "pro-Chavez" just because they were firing on students smells like BS. Perhaps I should have been clearer.

If you look at Reuters photo captions, they make no such assumption (correctly calling them gunmen).

[liberalsoldier5]

33. Wow. What a stretch.

You almost couldn't turn this around to make that piece of shit Chavez look good and the pro-freedom marchers look evil, but you did! Phewf! Hooray for revisionism of the present!

[subsuelo]

41. do you have evidence to share indicating Chavez was involved?

[ohio2007]

43. the opposition to "rule by decree" is being dealt with

in a legal manner

si ?

[subsuelo]

7. Chavez would not be involved in shooting unarmed protestors

No way.

[Pavulon]

9. Absolute Power...

how does that go.. He is not a god, he is a man. Men have a very long history of interacting with power.

[liberalsoldier5]

34. ....so sad.

Some "liberals" are just so damn hopeless.

[subsuelo]

40. show me the evidence

all I'm saying.

Show me the evidence.

[LynnTheDem]

47. And some "liberals"

aren't.

[redqueen]

53. If only it was ONLY the trolls who were so ready to believe

whatever trash the corporate media shills with respect to Chavez.

[LynnTheDem]

190. Too true.

70% of Americans believed the bullshit "Saddam did 911" media shills. That would include a good percentage of non-trolls.

But they're willing to be punked again.

And again.

And again...


It never bloody ends.

[redqueen]

191. So willing to be punked again.

I just do. not. understand. how that happens.

[IsItJustMe]

233. You said a mouth full. I personally find it very troubling when I seem to be agreeing with people

like Bush and Pat Robertson. But hey, some folks just have a ring in their nose.

[rudeboy666]

8. Maybe just some Chavez fanatics

The headline is very misleading (the implication being that GOVERNMENT officials fired).

It seems that it was just a couple of blind Chavez fanatics.

Whether the government was involved or encouraged this type of behavior is another story (although no proof has arisen yet).

[Bacchus39]

11. it seems safer to march in a pro-Chavez rally though

n/t

[slackmaster]

10. This thread will not end well

[EFerrari]

27. There's no need for a free for all. As said up thread

this is an old tactic.

[Beerboy]

66. Who says this thread has to end? n/t.

[David__77]

17. The gunmen are anti-Chavez communists. It will be revealed.

The "Red Flag Party" of Enver Hoxha brand communists is behind this provocation. Not Chavez supporters. Red Flag had a history of such violent provocations in the service of the fascists.

[Progressive Friend]

19. I've heard of the "Red Flag Party" before too

I also heard that they were even kicked out of the "Hoxhaist" international grouping of formerly pro-Albania communist parties, and are considered to be renegades by pretty much everyone.

[Judi Lynn]

39. You're right. They are mentioned in this article which was written about the student "movement"

during the RCTV protests, back in early summer:

June 9 / 10, 2007

Who's Pulling the Strings?
Behind Venezuela's "Student Rebellion"
By GEORGE CICCARIELLO-MAHER

Caracas.

~snip~
That the "student leaders" are tied to the opposition is far from controversial: for example, spokesperson Yon Goicochea is a member of Primero Justicia and the aptly-named Stalin González belonged until recently to the strangest of opposition organizations, Bandera Roja. BR is a nominally Marxist-Leninist group which made the unlikely transition from a respectable guerrilla organization to the attack dogs of the far right, claiming to use the opposition as a vehicle to topple the fake communism of Chávez and institute a true dictatorship of the proletariat. But González recently revealed the extent of his opportunism by joining Rosales and Un Nuevo Tiempo.

But the contours of the opposition's hands-off strategy wouldn't be fully clear until the revelation of a taped phone conversation in which Un Nuevo Tiempo leader Alfonso Marquina spoke of the need to remain in the background, but to pull the strings regardless: "Let's mobilize all the kids We have a strategy as an organization Let's mobilize all the kids, because you know {UCV student leader} Stalin {González} is our vice president here in Caracas Let's mobilize the kids from the Catholic {University} We've decided that the politicians won't intervene, that we'll leave it to the kids in their natural environment. We'll give them support, stick them in trucks If I go out there, they'll say it's the politicians that are calling the kids out"

"The only thing that can save us in this situation is if something extraordinary happens," replies Elías, an advisor to RCTV head Marcel Granier, on the leaked tape. It's comments like this that lead the Vice President of the National Assembly Desiree Santos to argue that the political opposition to Chávez was "looking for a death" among the students, to "repeat the actions of 2002" in which pre-meditated deaths were inserted into a pre-fabricated media strategy to overthrow Chávez.

Santos continues: "We want to denounce today a campaign which intends to convince the country that these student protests are spontaneous, civil, peaceful, and democratic, but behind them there lies an entire conspiratorial apparatus. They are using these kids as cannon fodder..." It was little surprise, then, that when a student was indeed killed (but under circumstances unrelated to the protests), the opposition press immediately ran with the story, only later rectifying their erroneous reports that she had been shot by police. This convenient misreporting even led to the story reaching the pages of Spain's El País.
(snip/...)

http://www.counterpunch.org/maher06092007.html

[cali]

229. I have no idea what happened. From what I can discern Chavez

was not involved, but Counterpunch is totally not a credible source. It's no more credible than World nut daily,

[redqueen]

62. Again, something that's happened repeatedly throughout history.

Why do so many seem to be unaware of how these games are played?

I don't get it...

[struggle4progress]

21. " ... While the exact circumstances of the incident remained unclear ...

was the first time in the campaign there were serious injuries and came days after Chavez said the opposition wanted to stoke violence to destabilize the country ...

The OPEC nation's civil defence chief, Antonio Rivero, told Globovision television station from the scene of the violence, that at least two people were shot and wounded ...

Witnesses told Globovision, which is openly critical of Chavez and sympathetic to the opposition, that the assailants fired guns and threw tear gas canisters. A Reuters witness at the scene said bystanders could not tell how the violence erupted ..."

At least 2 shot in Venezuela after anti-Chavez march
Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:59am GMT
http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKN0759583920...

[struggle4progress]

22. ".. A government official initially said one person was killed, but university authorities later ..

denied there was any fatality and said four students were taken to hospital with gunshot wounds ..."

Four shot in Venezuela student protest
From correspondents in Caracas
November 08, 2007 12:41pm
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22723649...

[struggle4progress]

23. " .. Unidentified gunmen opened fire on the students as they returned from the march ...

One witness told the Reuters news agency that after the initial violence supporters of Mr Chavez drove through the area on motorbikes and shooting into the air.

National Guardsmen had been posted along the march route to stop clashes between protesters and Chavez supporters ...

Gunmen fire on Venezuela protest
Last Updated: Thursday, 8 November 2007, 01:26 GMT
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7084262.stm

[Bacchus39]

24. slide show

a variety of pics from recent events in Ven staritng with today's events



http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/wl/030204venezue... ;_ylt=Anjs1XS0kRDiV5O9r4NtcUeaK8MA?sp=3000&auto=yes

[Peace Patriot]

25. And we are to believe that these gunmen are pro-Chavez because...?

Come on, people! Where do you think many of your 'disappeared' tax dollars are going? Into black budgets to fund the destruction of democracy, to discredit elected leaders like Chavez in Venezuela, Morales in Bolivia and Correa in Ecuador, who would dare to use oil profits to benefit the poor, and to do many a nefarious deed, in South America and around the world.

Gunmen shooting at anti-Chavez protesters benefits...whom? Why would pro-Chavez people do this? All polls indicate that the Constitutional reforms that have been discussed for months, were passed by the National Assembly a few weeks ago, and will be voted on by the people of Venezuela this week, are going to be approved by a big majority of the voters. Those in support of the reforms would be mad to get out guns and start shooting. And pro-Chavez folks have NEVER done so before! They are not inclined to, they have no history of violence, and they have no need for it. They are the majority, and because the elections are transparent and honest in Venezuela (unlike our own), the interests of the majority prevail.

In 2002, anti-Chavez protesters, in the midst of the rightwing military coup attempt, shot pro-Chavez protesters and killed several. The film footage of that incident, which the rightwing TV station RCTV broadcast a narrow portion of--to make it look like pro-Chavez people were shooting people--was later exposed as a fraud, by the Irish filmmakers who made the excellent documentary "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised." RCTV excluded the part of the footage that showed who was being shot at, and only showed a pro-Chavez protester who had pulled out a gun in self-defense, while all around him dropped to the ground as bullets flew past them.

While these rightwing gunmen shot at pro-Chavez protesters, their puppetmasters inside Miraflores Palace (the seat of government) were announcing the suspension of the Constitution, of civil rights, of the National Assembly and the courts, and were announcing that their dictatorship was taking over the government. They had kidnapped President Chavez and taken him away. RCTV helped the coup further by announcing that Chavez had resigned (he had not), to help the coupsters convince Venezuelans that their democracy was over.

But the Venezuelan people, despite these scary announcements and the shootings of pro-Chavez protesters, and the presence of police and military in the streets, poured out of their homes in the hundreds of thousands, surrounded Miraflores Palace and demanded, a) the reinstatement of their Constitution and the rule of law, and b) the return of their kidnapped President. This public pressure convinced the presidential guard and democratic elements in the military to rebel against the coup. Thus, Venezuelan democracy was saved, by its own brave people, and Chavez was restored to his rightful office.

I have to laugh when the Bushite "talking point" is repeated, that Hugo Chavez is a "dictator." Hugo Chavez owes his office, any power that he has, and his life, to the Venezuelan people. They have voted for him in three elections, with ever increasing margins. They defeated the rightwing military coup that ripped up the Constitution and kidnapped him. He owes them in a deep way. You think he would dare to "dictate" to them? You think they would put up with a "dictator"?

What we are seeing in this current incident is rightwing theater, in my opinion. I have no doubt at all, myself, who these gunmen are in the pay of. It's the rightwing oil elite's play to try to project their own violent and unlawful intentions onto Chavez supporters. They are trying to create an image, an impression, that both sides are violent. And they are trying to cause trouble--chaos, anger, phony "riots," civil conflict. Penn & Schoen "School of the Americas" Manual, Lesson 1: destabilization.

And our war profiteering corporate news monopolies provide the playbill for this rightwing theater. They want you to believe that democracy and social justice are not possible--that it is inevitably violent for the poor majority to assert their rights, and to take their rightful place in politics and government. They want to besmirch this peaceful, democratic revolution. And they, of course, will devote no resources to investigating who these gunmen are, and if their masked faces are ever uncovered, they will never report the truth to you. Their role is to focus you on the violent show that their buds in Venezuela have orchestrated, while they drown you in their river of forgetfulness.

[Bacchus39]

30. don't believe your lying eyes.

you are extremely naive to believe that people cannot act violently without outside interference. also, quite condescending to Venezuelans or any other people to imply they lack the ability to act independently, even if destructively, outside of US influence.

[redqueen]

56. All the poster above did was question the credibility of the press

regarding that characterization... not claim that it was impossible for it to be true.

Nice strawman, though!

[Bacchus39]

69. I didn't see it today in Prensa Latina or Granma or other "reputable" news source

so I guess it didn't really happen.

[redqueen]

72. I missed the part where that made sense. (nt)

[Bacchus39]

81. I can help!! see post #75 and the "source" of the news story

that should give you a clue.

[dipsydoodle]

88. Good point

still not on there : http://www.plenglish.com/NewsSection.asp?Section=ENG_So...

Just this :
Caracas , Nov 7 (Prensa Latina) The Venezuelan political struggle over a constitutional reform for transition to socialism took once more the streets Wednesday, with caravans for a "yes" and a demonstration for a "no."


Those actions are included in an active campaign with a view to a referendum convened for December 2 that must decide if the economic, political and social changes already approved in the Parliament be applied.



"Yes" followers called caravans in the state of Aragua, while in the capital, the opposition decided to carry out a street march to the Supreme Court of Justice.



Demonstrations take place after disorder by opposition groups, which warned authorities that protests will be broken up after the first violent act.


http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={CB38E9A1-9C76-...

[Bacchus39]

91. hmmm.... it seems some details are missing

who to believe? various accounts from the international press or the Cuban government news agency? its just so hard!!

[Rage for Order]

32. "Gunmen shooting at anti-Chavez protesters benefits...whom?"

Did you ask the same question of the recent violence in Burma? Who benefited from the violence in Burma? I'm not comparing the regime in Venezuela to that of Burma. It's an example of why those in power would use violence - sometimes it is used to retain power, other times to seize power. To dismiss this out of hand as corporate media propaganda is premature.

[subsuelo]

42. Ah but to instinctively dismiss the corporate media propaganda argument

Is to display a complete lack of understanding of problems in Venezuela and Latin/South/Central America at large

[Bacchus39]

44. what about instinctively claiming Chavez incapable of involvement in this?

you know, coup leader Chavez.

[redqueen]

60. Who has claimed he's incapable of involvement?

Is this a strawman or are you referring to something someone actually said?

[Bacchus39]

64. see post #7

n/t

[redqueen]

67. So ONE person makes the claim, and you take that all over the thread?

Hey, whatever works...

[Bacchus39]

70. I was responding to the SAME person who made the claim

n/t

[redqueen]

73. Hah, I missed that.

Shame they said such a silly thing.

Guess y'all will have a lot to discuss.

Good day.

[Bacchus39]

76. no, I'm done. I'll post more news stories as they come

I'll leave baseless accusations and blind denials to others. good day to you too.

[subsuelo]

122. when you find the evidence of Chavez involvement

show me

[ronnie624]

117. There's a big difference.

There is no evidence that the Chavez government has ever been involved in fomenting or facilitating violence of any sort, as a strategy for advancing the agenda of the Bolivarian Revolution.

The so called opposition on the other hand, has a detailed history of promoting violence.

You also have a history of flinging half-truths and bullshit all over the place.

I can't be as polite as the other poster. Anyone who dismisses out of hand, the "corporate media propaganda argument", is either a liar or a fucking idiot who doesn't keep up with what's going on.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ronnie624]

123. Perhaps one day,

with enough practice, you'll be able to post a coherent message. Don't give up.

[redqueen]

57. Not to mention a complete lack of understanding of history. (nt)

[Peace Patriot]

50. I dismiss it out of hand because I know the history of the Chavez government

and its supporters, and because I also know, from long study, how the Bush Junta, the oil giants, their local fascist allies and the corporate news monopolies have worked in concert to overthrow Venezuelan democracy, because the Venezuelan people and the Chavez government have shown independence from them.

Your comparison of these gunmen to the Burma dictatorship makes sense only in that the employees of these gunmen would like to do to the Venezuelan people what the Burmese dictatorship has done to the Burmese people, and have tried it once before in Venezuela. It makes no sense whatever for Chavez supporters to go shooting at people, and the Bolivarian movement--the vast popular, social justice movement organized by ordinary people, which put Chavez in power, and prevented his overthrow--has no history of violence--not in Venezuela, and not in the other Boliviarian countries (Bolivia, Ecuador, Argentina). It is the ordinary people who started this movement who suffer violence, at the hands of rightwing thugs and would-be dictators. And the Chavez government itself has no violent or repressive inclinations. There is no evidence of it. Furthermore, IF the Chavez government intended violent repression, they wouldn't be using a few rogue gunmen on motorcycles shooting at a few anti-Chavez students. They have the entire resources of the state at their command. And from the number of mass protests by rightwingers in Venezuela, the near complete rightwing corporate monopoly on TV/radio stations (despite the de-licensing of RCTV), and numerous other evidences, the Chavez government is running a wide open democracy in which no one need fear violent or unfair repression for peacefully expressing their views and political organizing.

This is not to say that rogue individuals, claiming to be adherents to a leftist cause, can't just privately, individually, go nuts and do something criminal. Of course that can happen. There are also publicity seekers, like the black-masked punks who helped the police disrupt the Seattle '99 protests. But this very theatrical incident in Caracas has all the earmarks of planned CIA destabilization--used in Chile, used before in Venezuela, used throughout Latin America, used in Iran in the 1950s, used everywhere in the world to disrupt democracy when it is not serving U.S. corporate interests, with the added motivation of the Bush Junta and their particular service to multinational oil corporations, which has failed, in South America, as they "lose" country after country to the PEACEFUL Bolivarian Revolution. They will do anything to reverse it. And they have many paid operatives to produce incidents and news items on cue, for whatever nefarious purpose they have in mind at the moment--a military coup (they used shooters in that one, too, and tried to blame it on Chavez supporters--but that scam was exposed), a crippling oil professionals' strike (trying to make it look like a union movement, when it was directed by Exxon-Mobile), and a U.S. taxpayer-funded recall election (trying to make it look like democracy). They will use anything and everything to stop this peoples' movement--and also to prevent its goals of social justice and democracy from gaining currency here, in this country. They have a history of it. This is what they do.

And we would fools to buy into this latest tidy little news item about the "violence" in Venezuela, as portrayed. I'm sorry, but the war profiteering corporate news monopolies are guilty until proven innocent. They have misconstrued events, and black-holed reality, and told outright lies, and spread Bushite/fascist/corporate disinformation, too often to be trusted, even on basic facts. I don't trust one word AP sends over the news wires. Not one word.

There is a simultaneous corporate campaign going on to portray the Chavez government as irresponsible, profligate and incompetent, in its management of the oil industry in Venezuela. I have seen two lying disinformation pieces--one by Reuters, another in the NYT--to this end. You can read an analysis of the NYT article here
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/2808
"NYT's Tina Rosenberg Goes to School on Venezuela's Oil, and Flunks"

The purpose is not to tell the truth. The purpose is to DESTABILIZE Venezuela. I see this incident in this context--the purpose of the Corporate Rulers and the Bush Junta, which has been blatantly demonstrated in numerous ways. And I think we would all be fools NOT to see it this way--until it is proven otherwise. The Corporate Rulers and the Bush Junta and their rightwing oil elite allies in Venezuela deserve NO BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, when a self-serving item like this hits the AP news wires.

And, really, until we get smart about this--and understand what is being done to our poor, corporate media battered brains--we are going to continue being oppressed by the Bush Junta and its Corporate puppetmasters, here, in the U.S. Smarten up! Recognize disinformation when you see it. And if a peoples' self-determination, independence and democracy, against the Corporate Rulers, are at risk--as they are in Venezuela--understand, up front, that the corporate-controlled news media are going to LIE TO YOU, in many blatant or subtle ways, and we must learn to anticipate them--to struggle against the lies within ourselves and to counter them in the public venue. Don't let them play you like this! Don't let them convince you that the Bolivarian Revolution is anything but what it is: a peaceful, democratic movement, that has legitimately defeated the rich elite.

[redqueen]

59. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Looks like lots of people are all too willing to repeat it...

[struggle4progress]

28. " ... Antonio Rivero, director of Venezuela's Civil Defense agency, told local Union Radio

Antonio Rivero, director of Venezuela's Civil Defense agency, told local Union Radio that at least eight people were injured, including one by gunfire, and that no one had been killed. Earlier, Rivero said he had been informed that one person had died in the violence ...

Later, Globovision television broadcast a video of armed men riding motorcycles arriving at the university, where they entered the same building in which several of the gunmen were located. The pistol-toting men stood at the doorway — one of them firing a handgun in the air — as people fled the building ...

"We want to urge the media to reflect, to stop broadcasting biased news through media manipulation, filling a part of the population with hate," <Justice Minister Pedro> Carreno said during a nationally televised address.

He did not provide details regarding the number of injured or if any suspects were arrested, saying only that angry students surrounding the building wanted to lynch those inside ...

Gunfire erupts after Venezuelan students protest against Chavez reforms; at least 8 injured
The Associated Press
Published: November 7, 2007
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/08/america/LA-GE...

[struggle4progress]

29. "... Venezuelan student protesters were fired on, resulting in two gun-shot injuries ...

Seven more victims suffered other injuries, according to university official. Local television station Globovision broadcast images of protesters running for cover during the incident on the campus of the Universidad Central de Venezuela. One image showed a man in a black leather jacket firing a pistol twice. Interior Minister Pedro Carreno said at 7:10 p.m. New York time that the situation was under control ...

Dr. Rodolfo Tapa, dean of the university's medical school, said in an interview with Globovision that two of the victims suffered gun-shot wounds. Others suffered respiration problems caused by tear-gas bombs, among other injuries, Dr. Fernando Alvarado, assistant director of the university's hospital, said on state television ...

Venezuela Students Shot After Anti-Chavez Protest (Update1)
By Matthew Walter and Steven Bodzin
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aQ9...

[Bacchus39]

45. Five students wounded in the countryside in Venezuela

Five students and a reporter with daily newspaper El Impulso were wounded Wednesday during a peaceful demonstration university students staged in Barquisimeto, northwestern Lara state.

José Aguinaraldos, the dean of the Medicine School of Lisandro Alvarado University, said the police forced the students to change the route of their march and lead them to ambush, where hooded armed bikers were waiting for them.

Students accused Mayor Henri Falcón and governor Luis Reyes of the violence unleashed by government followers, who attacked the university students in front of the police.

http://english.eluniversal.com/2007/11/08/en_refco_art_...

[Clanfear]

51. That can't be true!!!

[EFerrari]

58. When it's debunked, will you be back to acknowledge that?

You need to consider 1) the Chavez government has never used these tactics before and 2) they have nothing to gain and everything to lose by using them now ahead of the vote.

It's not rocket science to figure out who is behind this cr@p.

[Bacchus39]

61. do you work for Chavez?

n/t

[redqueen]

63. ...

[EFerrari]

71. LOL! I wish!

[Clanfear]

65. How do you debunk this?

[redqueen]

68. The truth always outs.

Throughout history, there is a pattern.

[EFerrari]

75. Opposition Students Clash with Police in Effort to Get to Venezuela’s Electoral Council

What is "this"? Do you know what you're looking at?

Caracas, November 2, 2007 (venezuelanalysis.com) - Violent clashes took place yesterday between opposition students and the police when students tried to break police lines near Venezuela's National Electoral Council building. Students and members of opposition political parties had marched on the National Electoral Council (CNE) in Caracas to deliver a document calling for the referendum on President Hugo Chavez's constitutional reforms, scheduled for December 2, to be postponed.

As the march passed through the relatively poorer area of Parque Central, the protest was met with spontaneous cries from Chavez supporters of "Chavez is not going" and "They will not return" . Several thousand pro-Chavez students and supporters from the poorer neighbourhoods in Caracas also gathered at the CNE in a counter protest in support of the reforms.

Chanting "No to the reforms," the opposition students carried banners and placards openly calling for violence, as well as pictures of various CNE rectors, describing them as "traitors to the country."

When the opposition protest arrived at approximately 2pm, the CNE directors received a delegation from the students, giving them drinks and cake as they handed over their document. However, on leaving the student delegation attempted to chain themselves to stair well in the entrance of the building before being removed by the National Guard.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2796

[Bacchus39]

any "news" from yesterday's events from that Chavez propaganda site?

n/t

[EFerrari]

82. Did you read it? Has it ever occurred to you that each time

these stories come out in the corporate media, they turn out to be false?

Has this "propaganda" site ever been caught fabricating? Or, the VIO, for that matter?

I'll let you do the math.

[Clanfear]

84. That site is nothing but a mouthpiece for Chavez

Hardly credibile.

[Bacchus39]

85. as is sfexpat2000

n/t

[EFerrari]

93. No, I actually detest being lied to by the media more than any thing. n/t

[redqueen]

87. And the media we rely on have repeatedly demonstrated

that they are nothing but a mouthpiece for the CIA and the WH.

[EFerrari]

104. How would you back up such a statement?

Have you found them to be in error? I'd like to see that. Thanks.

[SpikeTss]

119. Let's debunk this:

- The first photo shows nothing, except police and what could be protesters.

- And thank you for the second photo, as it shows that protests in Venezuela can be compared to protests in France:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hughes_leglise/487780707 /

[ronnie624]

121. Debunk what?

Photos of "student protesters" attacking the police?

What the hell are you talking about?

[cuke]

184. What is there to debunk?

In the first pic, people are throwing rocks at the police. In the 2nd, the police are using water cannons on the protesters.

What do you want debunked?

[EFerrari]

195. Here it is:

"Students accused Mayor Henri Falcón and governor Luis Reyes of the violence unleashed by government followers, who attacked the university students in front of the police."

In the next day or so, we'll find out that this did not happen and from a credible source. That's the way these stories always turn out. But by that time, people only remember the planted smear.

[redqueen]

219. I dunno... those that care about the truth will notice.

The rest... well... who knows what their motivations are.

[ronnie624]

120. He will not acknowledge it.

As per usual, he will scrupulously avoid posting in such a thread.

[Peace Patriot]

96. The "leftist president of Venezuela," "friend of Fidel Castro," who is accused by

"his critics" of being "increasingly authoritarian," surely must be gloating in his palace over the brilliant tactics of the Chavista police, mayor and governor in bushwhacking "university students" and allowing "government followers" to ...what? It doesn't say. Beat on them? No mention of what the injuries are, or how they were incurred.

Really, Bacchus39, do you believe articles like this? You just swallow them whole cloth? My questions: Did the "university students" take an unpermitted route, and the police "forced" them back onto the permitted route? Was the re-routing of the march REALLY an intentional ambush? WHO were the "hooded armed bikers"? How was this verified?

Again, when a corporate news monopoly publishes a self-serving news item like this--and a particularly bad one, in which the police, the mayor and the governor, who are being accused of a crime, and are given not one line of text to defend themselves--you don't feel suspicious that maybe this incident is being FALSELY portrayed, to serve corporate interests?

What possible gain could there be, for the Chavez government, or a pro-Chavez governor or mayor, in fostering or permitting such an incident? It makes no sense, politically. It is decidedly uncharacteristic of the Chavez government and its supporters. They are going to win the referendum, hands down, as they have all elections. The only people such an incident serves are Condoleeza Rice, Exxon-Mobile, and the rich oil elite in Venezuela.

Not to say people can't be stupid sometimes--or that leftists can't be ill intended, or can't commit crimes. But the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence is that it is the rightwingers who are violent and ill intended--not just in Venezuela, but throughout Latin America (not to mention here)--and that the leftwingers (the majority) in Venezuela have NO REASON to be violent, and every reason to be peaceful and to act vigorously to prevent just this kind of incident. Indeed, it is the goal of the vast Bolivarian movement to SHOW that peaceful, democratic change can occur, with no harm to anyone.

The facts are thin, in this article. The motives don't make sense. The accused are not represented. And it comes from a corporate news monopoly source.

Do you believe it, as written?

[Beerboy]

46. CNN?

There's a lot missing to this story, or it's 'artfully' spun.

[dipsydoodle]

48. What a load of

unmitigated shit.

This is yet another right wing stitch up same as the last one which is on film as being a spoof.

[EFerrari]

52. I expect these stories to go from twice a week to double that until

the vote.