Rudy: Illegal immigration not a crime

[NoGOPZone]

Source: Associated Press via Yahoo News

Republican presidential hopeful Rudy Giuliani said illegal immigration is not a crime, prompting rival Mitt Romney to accuse him of not taking the problem seriously.

The two have clashed for weeks over illegal immigration, an issue that inflames GOP conservatives who influence primary elections. The irony is that both candidates have in the past taken more liberal stands on the issue.

"It's not a crime," Giuliani said Friday. "I know that's very hard for people to understand, but it's not a federal crime."

Giuliani's comments came in an interview with CNN Headline News and radio talk-show host Glenn Beck.



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070907/ap_on_el_pr/giulian...

[Sequoia]

1. Rudy's right on this one.

Ah, Mitt, just move back to Utah. You'll never be chosen.

[durrrty libby]

5. It doesn't matter if he is right. "The Base" will flip out over that statement.

Rudy just cooked his goose with a very large repuke gaggle.

[coalition_unwilling]

30. Kind of like former Michigan Gov. George Romney in 1968 saying he had been

"brainwashed" on Vietnam. While the notion of being captive to a collective delusion about the reality of our involvment in Southeast Asia was probably spot-on accurate, it doomed Romney's chances against Nixon in that year's Republican nominating process. Likewise, Guiluiani's observation is technically correct, i.e., undocumented work status is a civil violation, not a criminal violation, but guaranteed to send reich-wing voters around the bend. Buh-bye Rudy.

N.B. George Romeny is Mitt Romney's father. Had Romney pere been the Repuke nominee in 1968 and defeated Humphrey, chances are we would have been out of Vietnam by the end of 1969, rather than staying for another 6+ years and another 30,000+ American soldiers' deaths.

[mancandy]

33. Yep. The xenophobic right is going to freak out

big time

[Jansen]

7. How can it be called Illegal but not a crime?

Shouldn't it be better described as undocumented immigration then?

[ProudDad]

40. Bingo!!!!

We've had this argument here on DU before (and welcome, by the way )

It's "UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRATION" not "illegal immigration"...

The folks who have enough initiative to work their way across the border (to the country that stole their economy) should not be called "illegals"...

They are "undocumented 'aliens'" as worst...

To be accurate, they should be called "economic refugees of globalization".

Some xenophobes just can't get it through their heads that it's NOT a crime...



Let the games begin

[Drunken Irishman]

9. I don't want him here!

[Sequoia]

14. I sure don't want him as President either.

Neither of them for that matter.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. It's not a crime, it's a civil issue.

[oldhippie]

19. It's a crime...............

The law: US Code Title 8, Chapter 12, subchapter I section 1101 & subchapter II section 1325, defining improper entry to the US without inspection by an immigration officer as a crime. (New rhetoric from illegal-immigration advocates says "it's not a crime to enter the US illegally." That's nonsense; it's both a civil and criminal violation of US immigration laws.)

I suppose you're gonna tell me I made up that US Code? (Criminal law.)

[KurtNYC]

27. Wow. Interesting reading....

It is of course business owners who want cheap undocumented labor and oppose tightening the supply. And that desire is written right into the laws you cite.

8.12.1

(15) The term “immigrant” means every alien except an alien who is within one of the following classes of nonimmigrant aliens—
...
or (ii)(a) having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning who is coming temporarily to the United States to perform agricultural labor or services, as defined by the Secretary of Labor in regulations and including agricultural labor defined in section 3121 (g) of title 26, agriculture as defined in section 203 (f) of title 29, and the pressing of apples for cider on a farm,

etc.

And the penalties are roughly equal to a parking ticket for those who aren't exempt:
1325
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of—
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry);

and that is only if they are apprehended "while entering" -- if they are working for a Republican apple farm when apprehended that does not apply.

Thanks for that.

[ProudDad]

41. A CIVIL PENALTY...

Not a criminal sanction...

If it is a "crime", it's about equal to jaywalking and a lesser crime than speeding...

[tidy_bowl]

39. Please publish your address....

....you clothing sizes and a detailed list of all your belongings because as you seem to say that I or anyone else who feels they have a 'civil need' can just come into your home and take what we want. If the cops are called I will just tell you said it was okie dokie with you. Thanks.

[Boojatta]

3. What about assisting people to immigrate illegally?

Does Rudy Giuliani consider that to be a crime?

[PDittie]

4. He's dead to them now.

It's going to be Frederick of Hollywood.

[Richardo]

6. I hope you coined that name, PDittie, it's hilarious,

...and even if you didn't: still funny.

[pinto]

8. Politically, it would seem Rudy just shot himself in the foot, among (R) primary voters..

[Mountainman]

10. Well, he just lost the farm. I can hear every talk show host Monday morning talking about it.

He doesn't hate abortionists, gays and illegals. Who else is there to hate? Rudy doesn't understand the need for boogie man.

[pitohui]

11. hello? it's "illegal," you idiot, if it's illegal it's a friggin' crime

what rock do these people climb out from under, seriously? how stupid are they? how stupid do they think we are?

[Toots]

12. Just because someone says something is illegal doesn't necessarily make it so.

[candice]

13. Right, it has to be a violation of a law to be illegal...

the U.S., as most nation states, has laws on record that address whether a person is allowed by law to enter, visit, and work in the country. There are lots of people who have filled out the paperwork and are standing in line to gain legal admittance as residents/workers, but the law limits the number of legal entries.

[tidy_bowl]

36. Hello, anyone home there or...

...is that but an empty shell you carry around on top of your shoulders just to hear the pretty rattle?

It is US law that says so. Or are those bigger-than-a-syllable words too much for you to handle?

[Teaser]

21. Wrong.

To be a criminal act it has to be covered by criminal law.
Illegal immigration is not.

[TwilightZone]

22. What about this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[candice]

24. Fake drivers licenses are felonious, and are phony SS # legal?

...as long as the person is here and doesn't use a fake drivers license or phone SS #, they are "legal"? Wish that would have been the case for me when I wanted to live abroad. I was a non-person basically, but technically legal (visitor's visa that was never exceeded).

Certain countries want to export their citizens (and have them bring in revenue) rather than share the wealth. A lot of workers are here to pay for their children's high school (when it hasn't been possible to bring their family along).

[Socal31]

25. Huh?

It is a violation of Federal Law to be in this country without proper documentation.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

35. Not necessarily - it may be a misdemeanor.

I'm not arguing whether Rudy is right or wrong, just pointing out not all illegal acts are crimes.

[TankLV]

38. Pretty studid, aparently...

Illegal = CRIME = CRIMINAL.

Period.

[ProudDad]

43. How nuanced of you...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Lots of "conservatives" here on DU, too...

[ProudDad]

42. Don't get me started...

[Bleacher Creature]

15. He is factually right. Politically screwed, but right.

[kestrel91316]

16. Illegal = legal, sez Ghouliani. The man is too stupid to breathe.

[Teaser]

20. He's right.

Just because something is contravenes the law, doesn't mean it is a crime.

The statutes dealing with illegal immigration are civil in nature, not criminal.

[coalition_unwilling]

31. And thank God they are civil and not criminal. Imagine the criminal

court system (federal level), if cases involving undocumented workers were added to the docket. You think there's deadlock now? Remember that criminal defendants are entitled to trial by a jury of their peers. Even though habeas corpus is something of a dead letter after the Military Commissions Act, last time I checked the principal of trial by jury was still operative in our society. Of course, that will be the next precious legacy to be attacked by reich-wing.

[ProudDad]

44. Yep, they're already clogged up with the phony "war on drugs" (n/t)

[pingzing58]

17. Glad a politician finally pointed out the obvious. Many DUer haters of course aren't going to like

this.

[SlowDownFast]

18. Doesn't matter. Rudy NineEleveniani is a joke. n/t

[proust78]

23. This is going to be his "I voted for it before I voted against it"

We're going to hear this soundbite a million times. Bye bye Ghouliani!

[KurtNYC]

26. So AP thinks that Labor (eg liberals) wants more immigration??

That is what they imply here:
both candidates have in the past taken more liberal stands

It is business owners who benefit from lax enforcement of immigration laws -- and they tend to vote Republican. Employment of undocumented people benefits hard core Republicans and hurts working people (some of whom vote Repub). That is why this issue is so divisive in the GOP.

[pampango]

29. There are many liberals (Kennedy) who are sympathetic to illegal immigrants.

Those whom you see speaking on behalf of illegal immigrants are most often liberals, e.g. activists, religious, "sanctuary city" politicians, etc. Conservatives who support these immigrants, for economic reasons, usually do so quietly so as not to offend their fellow Repubs.

I think that is the reason that many people are under the impression that liberals are more in favor of (illegal) immigration than conservatives.

[coalition_unwilling]

32. "Employment of undocumented people" does not hurt "working

people" in the long-term, especially if "working people" start organizing efforts among "undocumented people". I suppose in the narrow term there are some job losses by citizens to undocumented workers. But how any worker having employment ultimately hurts any other worker is beyond me.

[ProudDad]

45. Some of the BEST organizing at present

includes large populations of undocumented persons...

The old-line, conservative unions are in the pockets of their corporate capitalist masters and their members tend to vote repuke anyway...

[KurtNYC]

47. As long as employers can get away with violating minimum wage laws

then we are hurt. Employers also can violate safety laws and practices because their undocumented employees are in a poor position to complain. I don't blame people who come looking ofr work, I blame those who have built businesses based on violating US labor laws and those who do not enforce these laws.

[Telly Savalas]

28. That's a strange thing for him to say

in light of the fact that the issue can't be directly tied to the events of 9/11.

[Solar_Power]

34. Breaking the law is not a crime?

Someone please wake me up

[TankLV]

37. It IS a crime - hence the term "ILLEGAL"

What part of "ILLEGAL" don't they understand?!?!

Rudy is an idiot no matter what he says...

[ProudDad]

46. "illegal" - the xenophobe's pejorative term -- not the law's... (n/t)