U.S. Defends Surveillance to 3 Skeptical Judges

[struggle4progress]

Source: New York Times

By ADAM LIPTAK
Published: August 16, 2007

SAN FRANCISCO, Aug. 15 — Three federal appeals court judges hearing challenges to the National Security Agency’s surveillance programs appeared skeptical of and sometimes hostile to the Bush administration’s central argument Wednesday: that national security concerns require that the lawsuits be dismissed.

“Is it the government’s position that when our country is engaged in a war that the power of the executive when it comes to wiretapping is unchecked?” Judge Harry Pregerson asked a government lawyer. His tone was one of incredulity and frustration. ~snip~

The three judges, members of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, were hearing arguments in two lawsuits challenging the highly classified surveillance programs, which the administration says are essential in fighting international terrorism. The appeals were the first to reach the court after dozens of suits against the government and telecommunications companies over N.S.A. surveillance were consolidated last year before the chief judge of the federal trial court here, Vaughn R. Walker. ~snip~

The appeals concern two related questions that must be an

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/16/washington/16nsa.html...

---

Feds urge appeals court to dismiss eavesdropping lawsuits
By PAUL ELIAS Associated Press Writer
Article Launched: 08/15/2007 06:56:50 PM PDT

~snip~ The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals agreed to hear the government's request to dismiss two lawsuits: one filed by customers of AT&T Corp. against the company and another brought by the now-defunct Oregon charity Al Haramain Islamic Foundation and two of its lawyers who say the NSA illegally listened to their calls.

The appeals court's ruling in the two cases will apply to 50 remaining lawsuits, all of which are before U.S. District Court Judge Vaughn Walker in San Francisco. Walker ruled against the government last year and said he saw no harm in letting the lawsuits continue because the eavesdropping program had been publicized widely. ~snip~

Judge Harry Pregerson complained that Garre was asking the court to "rubber stamp" the government's claim that state secrets are at risk.

"Who decides whether something is a state secret or not?" Pregerson asked. "We have to take the word of the members of the executive branch that something is a state secret?" ~snip~

http://www.contracostatimes.com/bayandstate/ci_6633415


Appeals court may let NSA lawsuits proceed
By Declan McCullagh, News.com
Published on ZDNet News: Aug 15, 2007 4:40:00 PM

~snip~ In the first case, called Hepting v. AT&T, the Electronic Frontier Foundation and other attorneys had filed a class action lawsuit against AT&T saying it unlawfully opened its networks to the NSA. U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker in San Francisco ruled last summer that it could proceed.

The second case, Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation v. President Bush, is unique: it involves a classified document that the U.S. Treasury Department accidentally turned over to an attorney for the foundation. The top-secret document showed, according to the group, "Al-Haramain and its attorneys had been subjected to warrantless surveillance in violation of" federal law. They responded by filing another lawsuit in February 2006 alleging violations of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

The Justice Department says the Al-Haramain case must be thrown out because it, too, could endanger state secrets. The foundation's attorneys must not even be allowed to refer to it, government attorney Thomas Bondy said Wednesday, because their "mental recollections of the documents are also out of the case." ~snip~

"The bottom line here is that once the executive declares that certain activity is a state secret, that's the end of it?" Pregerson asked. "No cases, no litigation, absolute immunity? The king can do no wrong?"

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9588_22-6202865.html

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

1. K & R, the Ninth Circuit Court.

MKJ

[thunder rising]

2. "No cases, no litigation, absolute immunity? The king can do no wrong?"

Is he in an appointed position? Just ask'n.

[icymist]

32. If he gets his way he will be soon. n/t

eom

[amerikat]

3. "Can't be anymore complicated than my phone bill"......brilliant

Just when I had lost all hope, I find there are folks within the system that get IT. There is a reason we have a court of appeals. May they keep on doing their jobs.

Judge Pregerson, appointed by President Jimmy Carter, appeared irritated with the government’s arguments, and he became frustrated when Mr. Garre said he could not provide simple answers to questions about the scope of a recently amended 1978 law, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Mr. Garre said it was a complicated law.

“Can’t be any more complicated than my phone bill,” Judge Pregerson said".

[0007]

34. Anything simple and easy to understand is the truth.

Anything complicated and supremely difficult to understand is usually not the truth.

[EVDebs]

4. Most of these state secrets are embarrassments that need to be know

spying on Dr MLK jr was the worst thing the military did, even worse than Hoover's FBI surveillance. Nowadays we've got the Ragin' Grannies, greens trying to fly, 'terrorist' namelists with Ted Kennedy on them, and now way to appeal or correct any of this obvious harassment of liberals, who are the real targets of *.

And if you own an almanac, well that makes you a terrorist according to the FBI dontcha know.

[L. Coyote]

5. This illustrates why stealing 2000 from Gore was a travesty upon the Justice system.

Bush has been appointing judges since then--not the kind of judges appointed by Carter--and this will impact Justice far into the future.

[countmyvote4real]

6. This maladministration must be impeached now.

And if this Congress will not confront them, the people should remove the complicators that keep * in office and give comfort and aid to his CRIMINAL policies.

Period.

[intaglio]

7. K&R =D n/t

[philosophie_en_rose]

8. good vibes to the ninth circuit

[Rude Horner]

9. Of course, the right will spin this ...

to be "activist judges" in *gasp* the most liberal city in the country, San Francisco. I can just hear O'Reilly now....

I hope this court has some weight on the matter. I like their attitude.

[The Wielding Truth]

30. All US citizens (esp the right) should be ready

-when they hand over our individual freedoms to on group of tyrants who really don't care about national law or personal privacy-to accept or fight when the their fears of a terrorist coup comes home on quiet monkey feet.

[Karmageddon]

10. Way to go "The Fightin' Ninth"! What happens when it hits the SCOTUS still makes me nervous tho.

You know the cheney administration will appeal if the judges rule against him, and it will go to Roberts and Alito to decide if they can go ahead with this. Any bets on how they'll rule?

We'll be paying for the fear of filibuster for generations.

[EVDebs]

16. Anybody got that pic of the SCOTUS 2000 in clown suits ? nt

[Kurovski]

23. This?

[EVDebs]

24. LOL ! They were all together in 'choirboy' pic but this will do nicely . Thanks!

[pingzing58]

20. Looks like the Fates are taking care of Roberts. His position can't be vacated until after the

presidential election so that a moderat judge may be appointed. By fates I you may understand "God."

[EVDebs]

25. Almost like Chinese water torture what this maladministration is putting the country thru

Their sins will find them out.

[ElboRuum]

11. What really irks me is this...

What the executive branch is really saying by this is that "national security" is really "executive security."

Now, as a presumably reasonable individual, I can accept the fact that having the general population privy to surveillance information is tantamount to broadcasting it over the air, however, I cannot accept the fact that our elected representation and courts are not privy to this information. I mean, if governmental secrets are protected by necessity, I understand. But within the framework of government, I find it appalling that a single branch of government has the only key to the lock.

Even if there is legitimacy to the claim that these documents and testimony are state secrets, I find it unbelievable that the intimation is being made that anything deemed "state secret" must, by virtue of this edict, be therefore de facto inadmissable as evidence in suits and criminal cases.

[KansDem]

29. You mean like the Plame outing?

...having the general population privy to surveillance information is tantamount to broadcasting it over the air

It never fails to amaze me how an administration so obsessed with secrecy (US spying on Americans) can be so cavalier in babbling the name of a covert CIA agent.


I think you have a possible bumper sticker idea:

When did "national security" become "executive security?"

[Pierre.Suave]

12. I wouldnt get too excited...

first of all this is the 9th circuit.

Second, the governmetn will appeal until they find a more friendly judge, and they will get their way.

I have said it before and I will say it again. The ONLY way to save us from the Bushies is a strategic redoyplyment of Marines from Iraq to Washington DC to arrest EVERYONE.

We need to rebuild our government.

[kansasblue]

13. EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation ) Rocks!

the Electronic Frontier Foundation and other attorneys had filed a class action lawsuit against AT&T saying it unlawfully opened its networks to the NSA. U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker in San Francisco ruled last summer that it could proceed

[Joanne98]

14. Bush is interested in more than surveillance. Meet the Carlyle Groups new product.

Voice Peering Fabric from Stealth Communications. In other words, Bush is now in the "P2P" telecom business. Tort reform for the BFEE!

[Karenina]

15. OOOO-LA-LA!!!

[EVDebs]

18. Isn't this what Gene Hackman was using in The Conversation ?

[Joanne98]

26. I don't know. I didn't see the movie.

[EVDebs]

28. Harry Caul, expert bugger, has some pretty nifty tech circa '74

much better stuff nowadays:

"The slimy entrepreneur has hired a flashy-dressed, leggy blonde female model Meredith (Elizabeth MacRae) with knee-high white boots to demonstrate his products. On a velvet pillow, she holds up the newest "electronic marvel" (The Moran S-15 Harmonica Tap) and displays a kewpie-doll smile for the all-male crowd:

Once installed, it can be phoned from any telephone in the world, Singapore, Karachi, even Moscow...You just dial the target's phone number, pause before the last digit, blow the harmonica tone into the phone, press the last digit. The phone will not ring in the target's house. Instead, the receiver will be turned into an actual room microphone thus enabling surveillance to take place. And now, by way of an actual demonstration, we've installed one of these units in my very own home. I will now dial that number. I pause before the last digit...(he blows the harmonica tone)...I dial the last digit. You will note the phone does not ring."

http://www.filmsite.org/conv.html (from the '74 movie)

[vanboggie]

19. Good catch!

There's always something in it for them besides absolute power. Gotta keep those BFEE pockets lined. Evil, evil greedy bastards.

[Joanne98]

27. Thanx. I was hoping someone would notice!

[vanboggie]

17. Huh

What a unique concept - the rule of law in the United States! Thank you Ninth Court!!

[Kurovski]

21. K&R. (nt)

[ProudDad]

22. Don't count your chickens

The 9th Circuit being the best of a bad lot of Circuit Courts is often overruled by the Supremes.

This one probably will also...


"State Secrets" -- what a BULLSHIT concept...

[tanyev]

31. Say... if Carol Lam hadn't been fired before she could dig deeper into the Cunningham mess,

would the appeals on her cases have gone to this court?

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Miss Chybil]

35. "The king can do no wrong?"

Historic. (I hope.)

[MasonJar]

36. The king can do no wrong? Even if he wears no clothes? Go, 9th

Circuit!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MasonJar]

37. I quit Cellular One because they merged with AT&T. I thought I was

rid of them; then the bastards bought South Central Bell. I am still trying to decide how to get rid of them. I hope they go to jail.

[bluesmail]

39. I got T-Mobile Cell Phone, don't know if AT&T acquired it yet

After I got Dish Satellite TV I found out AT&T bought into it. My favorite bumper sticker ever: (Picture AT&T Logo) We Don't Care
We Don't Have To.

[robinlynne]

38. Thank-you for this post. I have been depressed since the friday fisa fiasco.

This is the first sign of a little bit of hope. Frankly, it has felt like doomsday. like the last straw. to me at least.