Clinton woos the outsourcers that workers fear

[billyoc]

Source: L.A. Times

BUFFALO, N.Y. — To many labor unions and high-tech workers, the Indian giant Tata Consultancy Services is a serious threat — a company that has helped move U.S. jobs to India while sending thousands of foreign workers on temporary visas to the United States.

So when Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) came to this struggling city to announce some good news, her choice of partners was something of a surprise.

Joining Tata Consultancy's chief executive at a downtown hotel, Clinton announced that the company would open a software development office in Buffalo and form a research partnership with a local university. Tata told a newspaper that it might hire as many as 200 people.

The 2003 announcement had clear benefits for the senator and the company: Tata received good press, and Clinton burnished her credentials as a champion for New York's depressed upstate region.

Read more: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-buffalo30jul30,0,6816044.story?coll=la-home-center

[Lasher]

1. This is not a good sign for the American worker.

The Democratic front runner in bed with Tata Consulting.

[The Backlash Cometh]

57. It sounds like a publicity stunt.

We take 2000 of yours, we'll give you back 200...

[Lasher]

66. And all entry jobs perhaps?

Or hire the Americans and then offshore their jobs just for fun?

[The Backlash Cometh]

68. A drop in the bucket, however you look at it.

[aggiesal]

84. All the engineering jobs (high paying jobs) ...

will come from H1B Visa Engineers (low paying engineers), while they hire all the low paying jobs, (i.e. admin, janitorial, ...) from the local population.
IT will obviously be outsourced.

[Lasher]

98. Wait a minute, what about L-1 visas?

Once Tata sets up this enterprise and hires their American janitors, what's to stop them from using that as an excuse to bring in a flood of L-1 visa holders? It's much easier to get L-1 visas because there are no quotas. Maybe this is their primary intention, to set up a front organization so they can get more L-1 visas.

BTW, Tata is the top user of L-1 visas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-1_visa#Top_20_L-1_Visa_Users

[Maribelle]

106. But what about the American companies that funnel through Tata?

In 2006, 7 of the top 10 users of L-1 visa were IT outsourcing firms that were either headquatered in Indian or were primary based in Indian due to larger employment base located in India.

Which CEOs of American firms are using the 7 of the top 10? Are American CEOs hiding behind the coattails of firms headquartered in India?

[aggiesal]

123. Good point. I never considered that. ...

I don't know how L-1 Visa's work, but if it does work the way you've
described it, and they go ahead and use this means, then Hillary has
done the engineers of this country, no favors.

One more reason not to vote for Hillary.

[Lasher]

140. L-1 visas are designed for multinational corporations to move their employees in

In this case Tata Consulting, which is based in India, establishes a US subsidiary. They can then obtain L-1 visas to ship their employees from India to the US to run the subsidiary. Although L-1 visas are not as well known as H-1Bs, they are employed more because there are no annual quotas like there are for H-1Bs. You can learn more about them if you wish if you hit the link I provided upthread.

[barb162]

135. That's right.

And it's sick from the standpoint of American workers.

[Skittles]

101. maybe it's the skeleton crew in America

that has to fix all their f***ing CRAP

[barb162]

134. This has been happening more than you want to know.

It's not the first time. There's a web site called noslaves.com that tries to keep track of candidates doing this.

[bluestateguy]

2. Part of the whole DLC playbook

The DLC wants the party to abandon labor on the logic that there is more campaign cash to be gotten from business instead.

[Maribelle]

3. Is that an egregious assertion or do you have even one fact to back it?

A fact that debunks your assertion is Clinton's voting record supporting labor over the last seven years.

[billyoc]

4. Here's a fun fact:

"Clinton woos the outsourcers that workers fear"

We in the labor movement know how to decipher these ridiculous claims of "voting record supporting labor".
We also know who our enemies are.

[Maribelle]

6. Oh please - - how come "youin the labor movement" ...

have not done more to help eliminate the poverty that might be sucking up Buffalo, as Clinton is doing?

And do you support the implied thesis of the LAT that Indian-Americans are not American workers"? Well?

[billyoc]

14. Simply by opposing Clinton and NAFTA

we've done more to fight poverty in Buffalo and everywhere else than Clinton will ever do.

[ooglymoogly]

59. If memory serves Bill clinton ushered in NAFTA the source imo of much of this countries

employment problems....he is also a member of the Tr! L@tteral commission; an organization (one of the many with benign sounding names) that was started and chaired by the "Roket-fellers" and which is dominated by the fiercest pug and world big business leaders and neocons...they are the imagineers of a new world order in which NAFTA plays a big part and which is for the rich by the rich and of the rich. This is not to say I believe Bill Clinton is not a brilliant politician and leader...it is just one thing to consider when trying to evaluate his wife.

[CANDO]

56. Have you no sense of shame?

"How come you in the labor movement have not done more to eliminate poverty"? Maribelle, are you not embarrassed by that statement? The labor movement is quite simply the most effective means the world has ever known in regards to eliminating poverty. Look at any historical analysis and you'll find that as union membership increases, poverty decreases. I think you are in way over your head. You have yourself convinced of Hillary's credentials, reality be damned. And history be damned, as well.

[Maribelle]

104. "to help eliminate the poverty that might be sucking up Buffalo"

Why did you alter what I said. I specifically said what is in this title as a key phrase - - which you cut: "to help eliminate the poverty that might be sucking up Buffalo".

Just for the record, I was among the first computer professionals to cry foul back when Hewlett Packard began outsourcing. I'm sure all of you now crying about outsourcing remember the year.

Additionally, I have advocated that labor's growing weakness was not good for the working poor, and that middle-income workers needed to unite across union demarcations to gather strength for the 21st century's battle against those that are at war against the middle class. I firmly believe we would have no middle class in this country if it were not for labor unions of old.

Tata is merely a consulting company - - a middle man, if you will - - that would be nothing if not for the good executives at companies such as HP.

That being said, there are important and pressing reasons universities are focusing on building stronger unions in the Buffalo area - - a pock mark on labor unions that could be converted to a rallying strength. Will labor muscle up?

So blame the middle man all you want. And blame me for having no sense of shame. But my concept is that we should blame the American companies all the while fighting for stronger unions. And, also, my concept is that Buffalo could be an excellent paradigm for the future.

[CANDO]

129. What more can Labor be doing, Maribelle?

We have been fighting a losing battle ever since the late seventies. In 1981, Ronnie Raygun declared war on unions and working people by extension by firing the PATCO strikers. And then along comes the DLC, eager for corporate cash and talking out both sides of their mouths. And here we are now about ready for another DLC'er to be crammed down our throats by the corporate media. Why do you defend the patently obvious deception of these people? Because you want the first woman President? What good would that do working people if the woman involved is questionable at best? I don't care if the person has zebra stripes. What are their proven backgrounds in supporting labor and helping eliminate poverty? Hell no to another "triangulater"!

[msongs]

36. no facts here, just opinion nt

[NotGivingUp]

8. Egregious assertion? Try doing just a little research before you accuse somebody

of an egregious assertion.

[Maribelle]

12. Perhaps you do not know what I mean by "Clinton's voting record supporting labor", yes?

Maybe it's clinton bashers that are research lite? lol

[Maribelle]

23. Majority of labor unions give Hillary extremely high marks.

For the hillary-bashers-research-lite cartel here is a place to begin your research on Hillary's extremely high marks:


United Auto Workers http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_detail.php?sig_id=003464M
AFL-CIO http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_detail.php?sig_id=003511M
American Postal Workers Union http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_detail.php?sig_id=003513M


Some others for your research:
Service Employees International Union
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers.
International Brotherhood of Boilermakers
United Electrical Radio and Machine Workers
International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Worker
American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees
American Federation of Government Employees
Communications Workers of America
United Electrical Radio and Machine Workers
National Association for the Self-Employed
Transportation Communications Union

[MannyGoldstein]

25. Permanent 'Free' Trade With China Is Supporting Labor?

I suppose that starting an insane war does cut unemployment.

[Maribelle]

26. Can you support the lie that "The DLC wants the party to abandon labor "?

That's the issue I asked.

[MannyGoldstein]

30. I Responded To Your Assertion re: Her "voting record supporting labor over the last seven years"

As to the DLC - did they support job-crushing NAFTA, and job-obliterating permanent 'free' trade with China? These were nuclear bombs thrown at Labor. Any other legislation in support of Labor was merely a firecracker.

[Maribelle]

32. The DLC supported voting against CAFTA.

How many now support things like the national speed limit of 55 MPH?

Now - back to the lie about the DLC.

[billyoc]

48. No, the DLC supported CAFTA, of course.

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253428&kaid=108&subid=900010

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maribelle]

162. The DLC supported voting against CAFTA.

VOTING AGAINST

VOTING AGAINST

VOTING AGAINST

VOTING AGAINST

over 76% of the DLC in the House voted against CAFTA

Last-minute lobbying for CAFTA's defeat spread like wild fire, somewhat based on studies that had been hidden and censured by Bush for almost a year were released. This fulminated that CAFTA was unacceptable under its bush- façade of shield laws for corporate absconders. The removal of tariffs, designed to foster the balance of trade and help raise the standard of living for those living in abject poverty in Central America, would be clearly negated by what Bush was hiding.

Again, the vote - - one simply looks at who voted against CAFTA. http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll443.xml

A few days before the vote in the House (July 28th 2005) Hillary, Evan Bayh and others went to Chicago to speak to the DLC after having voted against CAFTA in the Senate (June 30th 2005). Do you have a copy of what they said to the DLC in late July?? The results as I screamed above - - over 76% of the DLC in the House voted against CAFTA.

The unethical GOP, along with the White House and Bush, lured many Republican lawmakers into voting for CAFTA by earmarking billions of dollars for pet projects in things like a $286 billion highway spending bill. Then, it is reported, the Republican leaders in the House let the vote remain open so that Bush could attempt to strong arm those Republicans that hadn’t yet fell for his bribes - - as Bush personally called members to gain the necessary votes.

I never said the DLC did not support CAFTA. They always did. However, they ended up not supporting Bush's sad sorry excuse, just like his distorted NCLB.

So, it seems, while the DLC does support a free trade policy with Central America, its congressional voting members were clear that Bush’s flavor was totally unacceptable. He cannot be trusted with anything, really. Everyone is familiar with NCLB. How Bush corrupts is exemplified by what he did to NCLB. Far too many lawmakers that had once supported NCLB in theory, realize what they voted for and what has come to fruition under the corrupt Bush administration differ widely.

[Zodiak]

58. From their Website

Why America Needs a New Labor
By The Editors

Over the years, New Democrats frequently have clashed with organized labor. We've strenuously opposed labor's retrograde agenda for trade protection as well as its attempts to thwart long-overdue reforms in America's underperforming public-sector systems, from welfare to job training to schools.

New Democrats also have clashed with labor on the broader question of how Democrats can become America's majority party. We've had the temerity to state the obvious: The depletion of labor's ranks has undercut its claim to speak for working Americans as a whole. And when labor has behaved like a special interest group, we've said so.

Our differences are serious.

--------

The article goes one to say that we need new labor unions that work closely with employers and do not act as an tmanagement, and labor needs to acceopt all the tenets of the New Global Economy that the globalists like the DLC adhere to like a religion.

[Ken Burch]

148. Clearly, it proves that the DLC wants the workers to surrender to the bosses

Cooperating with management means giving up protecting workers' rights. It meant that in 1890, it means that now.

Management never voluntarily treats working people with decency and respect.

[barb162]

137. That's outrageous isn't it?

Free Trade with China=Why Asia will eat our Lunch.

[Lost4words]

28. wow are you dreaming or what?

[CANDO]

51. NAFTA

She's a wolf in sheeps clothing just as her husband was. These goddamned corporate whores masquerading as Democrats need to go straight to hell. I am fucking fed up with people who can't see that the DLC'ers have been playing us for fools for far too long. I'm an 18 year Teamster and I can't tell you how many of my union brothers who left the Democratic party back in the eighties have pointed out that they have done nothing but backstab the working people. You can't win them back when they see the proof in the pudding with deals such as NAFTA. And if you think Hillary will be any nicer to us working stiffs, think again. People need to BELIEVE you are on their side, and all the Clintons have done is masquerade like they are on our side when it involves economics.

[ooglymoogly]

61. Precisely why the cooperate press is shoving her

down our collective throats. They have soooo much to lose if a real dem is put in office.

[Virginia Dare]

72. With all due respect abandoning the Democratic Party is NOT the answer..

I can fully understand organized labor's revulsion to another Clinton presidency, but I don't think that jumping ship to the other side is a reasonable solution either.

I never understood the Teamsters' support of Ronald Reagan.

[CANDO]

105. I never understood it either, but that was way before my time.

The Teamster hierarchy routinely threw their support to Republicans for President back in the day. They are back as solid supporters now. They are really looking for support from whatever political stripe offers it, though. In many state and local races, whomever pledges to support labor, gets labor dollars, as it should be. I will not jump ship. But I simply will not vote for a DLC backed Democrat ever again. It is a vote for conservative economic ideology.

[ProudDad]

115. The difference between management

and the corporatized union "leadership" of the emasculated Unions since Taft-Hartley is in name only.

Most of the Union Execs party, recreate, eat and drink and whore at the same upscale establishments and resorts as the corporate capitalist masters...


The Teamster "leaders" who supported ronny ray-gun were as far from heroes like Joe Hill, Harry Bridges or C.L. Dellums as Rahm Emanuel and Zell Miller are from a heroes like Barbara Lee and Dennis Kucinich...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Bridges
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Sleeping_Car_Porters

[ProudDad]

114. Here's one

They've posted this defective rationalization for outsourcing on their website:

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=254161&kaid=107&subid=175

Wherein he quotes Thomas Friedman -- "Friedman is known for supporting a compromise resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, modernization of the Arab world, environmentalism and globalization. His books discuss various aspects of international politics from a neoliberal perspective on the American political spectrum."

"David Sirota of the San Fransisco Chronicle described Friedman as the "high priest" of free trade fundamentalism, in an article arguing for stronger protectionist economic barriers for the USA. The article suggested that Friedman maintained support of Free Trade in the absence of evidence, quoting him as saying "I wrote a column supporting CAFTA. I didn't even know what was in it. I just knew two words: free trade."


Article written by Doug Karmin, business development manager for Cisco Systems...


I had the misfortune to do some contract work recently for a couple of guys trained in the "Cisco Systems" system. They ended up stiffing me for over $11,000 in billings with their "creative financing methods"...

[barb162]

136. Clinton has been "seen" talking labor rights one day and

smoozing with outsourcers the next. I don't like it a bit. And it's just not Clinton is the problem. I think Democrats have to stand with the American labor force. Try a web site called "noslaves.com." They're trying to keep track of candidates on this issue and if they're talking out of both sides of their mouths. It's a serious problem. I want to know which way candidates will vote on labor issues, with the corportations/outsourcers/ offshorers or with workers.

[gulfcoastliberal]

159. Is it not a fact Hilary servedon the board of Wal-Mart, directing their vicious anti-union actions?

And her chief advisor is from a firm specializing in union-busting. These are facts.

[Maribelle]

5. I find it somewhat specious that the LAT implies Indian-American workers are not Americans.

Had a release of your intestinal gases through your anus, LAT???

[catgirl]

34. Where do you see that? Read this

But less noticed was how the event signaled that Clinton, who portrays herself as a fighter for American workers, had aligned herself with Indian American business leaders and Indian companies feared by the labor movement.

Clinton is successfully wooing wealthy Indian Americans, many of them business leaders with close ties to their native country and an interest in protecting outsourcing laws and expanding access to worker visas. Her campaign has held three fundraisers in the Indian American community recently, one of which raised close to $3 million, its sponsor told an Indian news organization.

But in Buffalo, the fruits of the Tata deal have been hard to find. The company, which called the arrangement Clinton's "brainchild," says "about 10" employees work here. Tata says most of the new employees were hired from around Buffalo. It declines to say whether any of the new jobs are held by foreigners, who make up 90% of Tata's 10,000-employee workforce in the United States.

As for the research deal with the state university that Clinton announced, school administrators say that three attempts to win government grants with Tata for health-oriented research were unsuccessful and that no projects are imminent.

[youngdem]

7. NOW is there anyone left wondering if she is a Repuke Lite DINO stooge?

Jesus fucking CHRIST. Tata is the partner of the Dem front runner eh?

Fucking GREAT.

Please Hill, tell me who in the fuck represents workers' rights in this country anymore.

GODDAMN I cannot believe that this tool is gonna be our nominee.

SHIT !!!

[billyoc]

9. youngdem, you have about as good a chance at the nomination

as Clinton. She's going nowhere, no matter what the "Starbucks Ghetto" polls say.
The Democratic party knows they're DOA without the AFL-CIO ground game, and Hillary
Clinton won't be getting that, that's for damn sure. There are just too many union
delegates lobbying against her.

[Maribelle]

10. The "partnership" is with a local university not Clinton.

Clinton fully supports workers' rights, as sure as the sun will rise somewhere on this planet in the next hour.

[ProudDad]

116. What's her program?

Where can I find her substantive PLAN for providing working people the Universal Health Care, decent housing and a living wage that they DESERVE.

Since she lies down with dogs in order to raise her tens of millions why should I think she won't get up riddled with fleas?

[NotGivingUp]

11. No doubt in my mind. The illusion is over...nobody is working for us. n/t

[redqueen]

112. Errr wait a minute...

what about Kucinich?

[LiberalEsto]

13. This is disgusting

It proves that Hillary is a corpocrat, not a Democrat. And it makes me furious!

Tata workers have replaced large numbers of information technology workers at my husband's company in recent years. One of their IT departments in Virginia is at least 90% Indians on H1B visas. They recently laid off an American-born Indian IT employee to replace him with a foreign worker.

Now the company is pushing early retirement so they can get rid of decently-paid American workers and replace them with even more cheap "Tatas", as they're called. The company has also warned that there will be more layoffs if enough people don't take the early retirement deal. There were a lot of layoffs earlier in the year.

It's obvious to me that American computer workers have no rights whatsoever. They should have organized and joined unions while they still had the chance, but many of these people bought the Reagan-Bush I era bullshit that they didn't need unions. Now they're paying the price, but it still stinks to high heaven.

Hillary betrays American workers when she cozies up to companies like Tata.

We need laws that say ANY American company that lays off American workers in order to replace them with cheap foreign labor should lose:

1. All local property tax breaks
2. All state and federal income tax breaks
3. All federal subsidies
4. All federal grant money.

[Maribelle]

16. I would think some find it disgusting that Buffalo is in such dire condition

But you are correcct that computer workers should have organized. Too many of them are wingnuts - - this is a basic precept that contradicts support of labor.

[LiberalEsto]

18. My husband organized a union

at a glass factory in NJ many years ago. They retaliated by putting him on rotating shifts, making it impossible for him to attend college part time. He kept organizing. They fired him. The day after he was fired, the glass workers voted in the union.

He would have liked to organize unions at his various IT jobs. However with 2 kids to feed and a mortgage, he was afraid he would not only get fired, but blacklisted from future employment in the computer field. And many of his co-workers weren't amenable to the idea of unions.

[ProudDad]

117. Jesus, where do I start???

Two Words:

Taft-Hartley...

That POS legislation along with Dino and repuke administrations' rulings over the last 35 years have made union organizing all but impossible!!!

Not to mention the propaganda on the M$M that has fooled most of the People of the country into believing they're not "working class" but "middle class" individual operators...


Edumacate you-self: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=13083

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

31. Yes! Yesyesyesyesyes!!!

I have been advocating for such consequences for business for years now, but with one extra penalty:

They would have to PAY BACK the monies that they received, by any means, that they received to create these jobs they have now outsourced.

When you or I do something that harms society as a whole, we have to pay penalties. They call those penalties "fines". So should business, especialy since they have and use the same rights as those of an individual. Right now, this outsourcing 'fashion frenzy"(because that is, in truth, what it is...) is destroying the social fabric of the US, and that can easily be argued as an offense against many aspects of the society, including that old, hoary phrase "National Security".

Put some pain in outsourcing. Give clear consequences to businesses who indulge in this preditory and destructive practice. Make it hurt. Really hurt.

And if that doesn't work, start seizing their properties to cover their penalties and start a national initiative to fill them with worker-owned competing businesses.

Shorter version: If they destroy jobs, they get their lungs ripped out.

[LiberalEsto]

52. Thanks!

I agree they should pay back every penny they've received from our tax money, at the very least from the moment the first foreign worker received a paycheck.

You write to your congressperson, and I'll write to mine.
And if enough of us start writing, maybe they'll get the idea that we're sick and tired of being used as corporate pawns.

[LiberalEsto]

55. My letter to Rep. Chris Van Hollen (D)

Van Hollen represents Maryland's 8th congressional district.

Dear Rep. Van Hollen,
I am tired of seeing American workers laid off so companies can hire cheap foreign labor via H1-B and similar visa programs. Our computer workers paid a lot for their educations, while foreign workers often get free education.
I think We need laws that say ANY American company that lays off American workers and replace them with cheap foreign labor should lose:
1. All local property tax breaks
2. All state and federal income tax breaks
3. All federal subsidies
4. All federal grant money.

Please vote to reduce the number of H1-B visas and tighten pay requirements. And please consider a bill to protect us taxpaying Americans from subsidizing, by our taxes, the destruction of our jobs.

edited for typo

[Deja Q]

87. Why can't she move to India? She'd be sacred over there.

[Deja Q]

92. Holy shit.

An American born person of Indian descent given the boot for a H1B? Now his is a story I'd genuinely love to hear.

[Rydz777]

15. American workers, both organized and unorganized, have every

reason to be suspicious of politicians in both parties. They've seen their jobs outsourced or the very machinery shipped out of the country and this has proceeded apace during both Republican and Democratic administrations.(Great book: Sen. Bryan Dorgan's "Take This Job and Ship It.") It comes down to this: Labor knows that the Republican politicians are no friends but the Democrats have to demonstrate their bona fides.

[NotGivingUp]

17. The game is good cop, bad cop...neither party is working for us. n/t

[atreides1]

67. ????

If neither party is working for us, then wouldn't it be bad cop, worse cop?

[NotGivingUp]

71. no...when somebody is being questioned by the police,

the 'bad' cop asks you all the hard questions and kinda gives you a hard time...then the 'good' cop steps in and pretends to be your friend so that you'll confide in him and give him more info.

[barb162]

138. You're right.

Probably only Kucinich is the best on American labor.

[antigop]

142. Kucinich has said he will repeal NAFTA n/t

[barb162]

143. I think that piece of crap should be repealed n/t

[antigop]

144. I agree -- but how many other candidates have said they will repeal NAFTA?

Here is a site that has some info:

Edwards said NAFTA should be re-negotiated, but what about the other candidates?

http://www.ontheissues.org/News_NAFTA.htm

John Edwards on Free Trade : Feb 26, 2004
Renegotiate NAFTA rather than cancel it
EDWARDS : The Chile trade agreement and the Singapore agreement have very strong enforcement mechanisms. I would use the Free Trade of the Americas agreement as a vehicle for renegotiating NAFTA.

SHARPTON: I want to cancel it.

EDWARDS: I think we do need to renegotiate it. The problem with NAFTA is these side agreements don't work. You have to put these labor/environmental protections in the text of the agreement.

Q: Will that be enough?

SHARPTON: No, I don't think so. This cost jobs for Americans. And it is unequivocal evidence that it costs Americans jobs. People were unemployed. It also went below labor and human rights standards abroad. We need to cancel NAFTA unequivocally. We need to have standards that we would not deal with nations that would put laborers in those kinds of situations. We cannot protect American corporations and call that patriotic and not protect American workers and call that protections.

[barb162]

146. It's like they just don't get it.

It should be repealed.

Edwards: "You have to put these labor/environmental protections in the text of the agreement."

And when there's no enforcement of the labor/ environmental stuff, what good will that do? Just like there's no enforcements of the Asia trade agreements. I believe we have to literally get rid of these damn agreements.

[HughBeaumont]

19. Both sides of her mouth on this one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3293026#3293082

Where's the talk of onshore worker protections or rights?

Edwards is far more sincere and vigilant of this issue, IMO. She cannot stray from the "free market", "rising tide lifts all boats" mantra of her past. Another example of windsock campaigning.

[KillCapitalism]

20. Her & her husband hate the American worker.

Bill pushed ahead with NAFTA & who knows what Hillary may have in store.

[NotGivingUp]

21. They're laughing in our faces. "Dumb fools. They actually think they have a democracy." n/t

[Malva Zebrina]

22. Her voting record over the last seven years

may have been pro labor----but she ran, twice, for Senator from New York. Needed those voters , I think, to win the state. She no longer crucially needs New York state voters--I suspect she thinks she has them locked up and seems to think courting the big businesses like this will pay off. I think it might do it as far as money goes--I also think payback will be expected. People, when they vote, expect a return, but the return to the people is not the return businesses expect-the people's return, and expectations are attention to their health, their jobs especially re outsourcing, the education of their children, and most especially this god awful so called war, which she enabled and refuses, stubbornly to address any further, and is vindictive if any other candidate even dares to mention that little fact in a debate---war vote and her support of Bush's war over the past five years. little things like that. I can never cast a vote for any one person who did this if it were the Pope himself.

Two soldiers killed yesterday. Tens of Iraqi killed and tens wounded. How many today?

[Maribelle]

24. So, do we throw out the last seven years for all candidates?

The post here escapes all logic.

[billyoc]

27. Yes, we do. With a guaranteed Bush veto protecting corporate donors,

you can vote any way you want. These voting records for Senators/Congressional Reps. don't
count for much with the people who make the decisions about who to endorse. They shouldn't with
you either.

I notice that you have a Clinton avatar, is there some specific reason that you're supporting her?

[Maribelle]

29. So, you agree with the LAT implying that hyphenated Americans are not true Americans?

That, in essence, is the crux of this thread.

[MikeNearMcChord]

33. So Tata will hire Indian-Americans

well hell, that is load off my mind:crazy: Sorry but your little attempt to imply racism, is not washing. Hillary Clinton hired an adviser who has ties
anti-union activities, gets money from wealthy donors who in 2004, were giving money to Bush campaign, not to mention her cozying to Rupert Murdoch. Sorry she is going to start showing me more that she gives a sh@@ about working Americans.

[Maribelle]

38. Oh Please - Does Irish-American or Italian-American have anything to do with race?

Hate pomp has no place in this discussion.

[HughBeaumont]

39. Xenophobia from the bottom of the deck is all they got.

They know it's a practice that's signature predatory Republican in idea and action, but refuse to call her on it. Plus the xenophobia card implies that the American workforce is only made up of white males, an assertion that couldn't be further from the truth.

As I point out in one of my journal entries, there were more than a few foreign-born people taking up the cause against job offshoring until there was a solution that benefitted all nations involved, not just their wealthy.

As you can tell, I'm far from optimistic that a realistic solution would be allowed by the "betters".

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

35. That is a non-sequiter.

You are flailing in your attempts to defend Sen. Clinton on a subject she is likely on the wrong side of. I can tell you this: H1-B's, the vanguard of the destruction of jobs in the US, especially in the IT sector, are not real Americans. In fact, they aren't Americans at all. They are foreign workers on a much abused visa. A visa that uses a system that has been gamed to exclude, by any means necessary, American workers. A system designed to remove American Workers from their jobs to make room for H1-B's. A system that moves these visa'ed workers from job to job, across the nation. A system designed, and taught in pricey seminars, all the best ways to game the system to keep from hiring American citizens. A system that Hillary Clinton wants to increase the yearly number of visas for.

Which is why I will not support Hillary Clinton.

[Maribelle]

41. LOL - - attacking me on all sides with your weak grasp of logic does not help ....

the poor of Buffalo.

Hillary bashers truly need to study up on logic.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

43. Weak grasp of logic, indeed.

You really are quite the frantic one, aren't you? Just kinda slinging snot, sweat and spit everywhere.

[AngryOldDem]

54. And you need to study up on what Hillary's support of such companies really means

The rich get rich and the poor get poorer.

That should do as a start.

[Occulus]

77. Welcome to my ignore list

Reason: intentional obtuseness combined with easily-proven falsehoods and a huge dose of blind loyalty.

Nobody will ever get through to you. Goodbye.

[Binka]

128. And A Good Dose Of Hubris. All Sound & Fury Signifying NOTHING

She joined my esteemed list of crack heads as well.

[billyoc]

46. That is certainly not the crux of this thread.

First of all, Indian-Americans don't need H1-B visas, because they're American citizens.
Also, hiring Indian-Americans is not outsourcing, because, again, they're Americans.

[IndianaGreen]

99. About a dozen jobs for Americans, and untold jobs for H1-B aliens

Tata's profit line increases at the expense of the American worker, while Hillary fools her constituents into thinking she is on their side.

[Solon]

49. Using the racism canard isn't going to work to shut down debate on this issue...

That's the thing with so called moderates, they just love to throw out bullshit and claim it smells like flowers. Anyways, onto the actual issue here, it has little to do with Indian-AMERICANS, but has to do with the way insourcing and outsourcing is affecting the domestic job market. As far as I can tell, its being abused, on both sides of the world, to make sure that wages in the IT market are kept as low as possible. In the meantime we have people with Bachelor's degrees flipping burgers. It seems to me that this was, at the very least, a political blunder by Hillary Clinton, especially the association with a company whose sole purpose is to undermine domestic workers.

[knight_of_the_star]

75. That's one hell of a red herring

I didn't see ANYTHING in the last post about that, maybe because you have nothing you can defend effectively or respond with.

[ProudDad]

118. What????

:wtf:

"implying that hyphenated Americans are not true Americans?"

What the hell thread are YOU reading?

Where did you get this?

[me b zola]

139. Geez, you're really grasping at straws

I've noticed that the dlc emulates gop type of politics and debate.

You don't like this article and the truth about Hil so you search for some non-issue within the article to attempt to discredit the larger points in the article that are uncomfortable to you. :hurts:

[catgirl]

37. Her current views are what's important

Among Indian American activists, Clinton's work with Tata has been seen as a sign of her independence from outsourcing skeptics within her party — and a break from the Democrats' 2004 presidential nominee, Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, who lambasted "Benedict Arnold CEOs" for shipping jobs overseas.

The main lobbying organization for the Indian-American community, USINPAC, cites the Tata deal as one of Clinton's top three achievements as a senator — and evidence of a turnabout, in its view, from her past criticism of outsourcing. "Even though she was against outsourcing at the beginning of her political career," the USINPAC website says, "she has since changed her position and now maintains that offshoring brings as much economic value to the United States as to the country where services are outsourced, especially India."

Clinton regularly reinforces that view. When CNN anchorman Lou Dobbs, an outsourcing critic, pressed her on the Tata deal in 2004, Clinton responded: "Well, of course I know that they outsource jobs, that they've actually brought jobs to Buffalo. They've created 10 jobs in Buffalo and have told me and the Buffalo community that they intend to be a source of new jobs in the area, because, you know, outsourcing does work both ways."

This month, she made a similar case to a conference of Indian workers in Silicon Valley, saying she supported an expansion of visas. "Foreign skilled workers contribute greatly to our U.S. technological development," she told the group via satellite.

[Maribelle]

40. These are jobs in Buffalo. Buffalo is poverty ridden, and she is trying to help.

And that is her current view.

[sadiesworld]

42. 10 jobs?

Your attempts to defend her are laughable.

[catgirl]

44. Well, it didn't work

Tata also signed a memorandum of understanding with a university research center to pursue discoveries in genetics, drugs and other areas. In a news release, Tata said that deal "will eventually lead to opportunities for training, recruitment and job creation in Buffalo."

snip

But soon the company faded from public view, said Andrew J. Rudnick, president and CEO of the Buffalo-Niagara Partnership, an economic development group in which Tata was initially active. "They told us their business strategy had changed," he said. "The reality is that the number of people that Tata is employing here now doesn't seem to be significant."

At the University at Buffalo, Bruce A. Holm, director of a research center pursuing projects with Tata, conceded that the partnership had not played out as hoped. But he said that progress was still possible.

Tata officials say the company has hired 50 people from the Buffalo area in the last four years but most have left or have been transferred to other locations. They say the Buffalo operations remain important to the company and a part of the civic life of the city.
report released by two senators said that Tata was one of the biggest users of foreign-worker visas in the United States, employing more than 7,900 visa recipients last year. The large number of visas suggests that companies are circumventing laws designed to protect American workers, Sens. Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.) and Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa) said in their report.

Clinton and many other lawmakers have called for cracking down on visa abuse. At the same time, she has backed an increase in the number of foreigners admitted to the U.S. each year under the main type of visa for high-tech workers. The cap is 65,000 each year; companies are seeking 115,000.

[catgirl]

47. And get this (seems Bill had a change of heart too)

Three weeks ago, her husband drew applause at a conference of 14,000 Indian Americans in Washington as he extolled the benefits of "open borders, easy travel, easy immigration." He said the outsourcing debate bothered him because it failed to acknowledge the contributions of Indians who settled in the U.S. The same day, he headlined a fundraiser at the conference for his wife's campaign.


I grew up in Buffalo. I've seen the devastation of the exodus of people. Clinton is no friend to the people there.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

45. 10 new jobs!

Oh gee, oh jay, oh frabjous day!

On edit, to Catgrrly: My point exactly. Companies like Tata exist to game the system. Nothing they promise should be expected to come to pass. Mrs. Clinton's hand-in-glove support of Tata and by Tata should be treated with all the suspicion it is due.

[davekriss]

152. Outsourcing may indeed create economic value...

...but what it does is take from the U.S. worker and give it to the U.S. owner. A position that cost $x to deliver value now takes $x - $y to deliver the same value. Who wins? Not the U.S. worker who was earning $x beforehand. Perhaps the foreign worker who otherwise might have been earning less. But the clear winner is the owner who now retains $y more in profit from the same value creation. Capitalism 101.

The really unfair part of the equation is that our democratic sovereignty and even our ability to bid on the same offshored job ends at our borders.

Where the law of the majority ceases to be acknowledged, there government ends; the law of the strongest takes its place, and life and property are his who can take them.
---Thomas Jefferson, to Annapolis Citizens, 1809

For every dollar the boss has and didn't work for, one of us worked for a dollar and didn't get it.
---"Big" Bill Haywood

We can continue to cede our sovereignty as working class to DLC "representative" or we can take a stand. Now.

[Malva Zebrina]

69. My answer

Logic? What logic? It will not be my fault if Hillary does not win. I suspect that is the logic of which you speak. It will be her fault and the fault of the party and everyone else who is willing to ignore the ethnic cleansing, her support of Bush's war over the past five years and the terrible, terrible loss of innocent human life. To top it off, to me, she resembles Bush and his spin as she tried to spin her vote in several different ways. Now there is some logic for you. She voted for it, before she knew anthing and if she would have, well by golly, this woman would not have voted for it, but at the same time she professes to have some unique foreign policy insight--over other candidates like Obama.

I deplore the depravity, the killings and murders, the total devastation of the country, the blood that runs in the streets and anyone who cannot take a minute or two to meditate upon that--smell the rot, hear the babies screaming and hear our own soldiers screaming, is avoiding the reality. Three more died today and two y esterday. Do you who supports a person who willingly voted for this, know their names. She wants you to forget about that vote. You have and willing to forget all of it--I will not.

I deplore that Hillary Clinton voted to have this happen. I deplore the suffering, the daily suffering, while today three more Americans were blown to bits or had their heads shot of. Logic? If I cannot take my disgust to the voting booth, then this is not a democracy. That is logic

[Kolesar]

50. Ohio's preeminent Indian-American candidate, Subodh Chandra, has endorsed Barak Obama

Subodh Chandra ran for Attorney General last year in Ohio. He lost the primary to Mark Dann, who had more visibility within the party. Subodh established himself as a well spoken intellectual with a vision to developing Indian American politics in the Democratic Party.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/CJmj

Note that the Boreal Avenger has not endorsed anyone. Still in the A.B.C. camp.

[dave29]

60. I lost my job for this reason, and for this reason I cannot support her

she has no idea what it puts people on BOTH sides through.

[HughBeaumont]

63. COME ON! It's all peaches and sunshine! That rising tide's gonna lift that boat yet!

This is a contentious issue with me and one that brings furor and makes me question if ANYone in our party truly looks after the worker anymore. I don't really need to question the Repuke position - shamelessly anti-labor, pro-Big Business, pro-corporation, pro-job offshoring, and anything less than the wealthy and corporations getting their way 700,000 fold over the working stiff = "comm'nism!".

Shouldn't the Democratic party make this more of an issue and, via their actions and thoughts, MEAN what they say about standing up to corporations?

I've talked to too many people online and in person whose lives have been ruined by this practice. People whose businesses had to close because they couldn't compete with the currency disadvantage. It happened to my father in the 80s with the steel mills, and most of his blue-collar friends in other industries as well.

The transition to new careers, much like every OTHER social service the whiskey-throttle government defunds in favor of flushing tax money in the Pentasewer, is something this country does NOTHING about. There's no help; financial, literary or otherwise, on what these "21st century jobs" are or when they're going to arrive or what Americans need to do to prepare for them. So, white collar or blue collar, we're pretty much left to fend for ourselves.

And by supporting free trade, unbridled corporatism and offshoring (as I point out in the post above), Madam Windsock can never be my candidate. Edwards and Kucinich are the only ones making an issue of this.

[treestar]

62. Why not get Americans to fill in the gap?

What is strange about outsourcing is that if the company leaves, doesn't that open up a business opportunity for someone here?

It is sad that Americans thinks only of getting jobs and not of inventing them and end up dependent on those who make them happen.

If Tata Consulting can't invest here, why can American companies invest overseas? You'll see it happening that they can't in retaliation which is only natural.

It's American exceptionalism at bottom.

[Solon]

64. Because they are at an immediate competitive disadvantage, that's why...

and that's just in wages, add in the monopolistic practices in many of the industries being outsourced and that's an additional disadvantage.

[Deja Q]

91. The only way to make the US competitive again is to alter the costof living and wages to match India

In other words, true globalization. Not migration.

Some have fathomed this might happen. Fine by me. If such wages/cost-of-living ratio allows Indians to build a prosperous middle class, the same figures sure as hell won't harm us. In all seriousness.

Indeed, the fact India and China are developing big middle classes is damning proof they are NOT being exploited.

[treestar]

93. Right and they would demand as high wages as Americans

And that would level the playing field.

[Solon]

95. That's incorrect, we would have to alter our cost of living to match the nation with the lowest...

cost of living, probably comparable to some Caribbean Islands or West Africa.

[Solon]

97. One of the dumbest argument I have ever seen...

Indeed, the fact India and China are developing big middle classes is damning proof they are NOT being exploited.

Just because India and China has a middle class doesn't mean the poorer classes aren't getting exploited. Hell, even the United States isn't immune from this, we have legal sweatshops in Guam, for example, due to exceptions to worker laws, where workers are kept under horrendous conditions just to make "made in the USA" clothing. The fact is that going to any average Chinese factory and you will see workers making hardly enough to pay for the company apartments they pay 3/4s of their salary to, but then again, they also have little choice because in the countryside, there are no jobs. Nor can they form independent unions to better working conditions, for that is illegal in Communist China, nor can they demand anything from government, because it is not a democracy, but a totalitarian regime. And you claim they AREN'T exploited?

As far as India, well, at least they are a democracy, however they still have problems, their farmers(70% of India) are finding it increasingly difficult to buy seed from America-owned seed companies, and some have even committed suicide over this issue. Actually its sort of becoming pandemic in a way. Then again, India is also one nation that is practically least affected by Globalization, considering they were able to shore up some industries before opening up to the rest of the world. In addition, most Indians still live in abject poverty.

[Deja Q]

126. Then why is the media having a field day claiming the big rise of these countries' middle classes?

One example of many.

[Solon]

141. Because they are owned by multi-national corporations that benefit directly from globalization...

and therefore its in their best interests to tell a lie, or, more likely, half a truth. They could lose advertisers, and hence money, for telling the whole story, or telling it from the wrong side of the debate. It was funny, when I clicked on the link, I expected an article, not a flash propaganda movie that links to articles, seriously, "Keeping up with the Wangs"? Could they be any more transparent? The big problem here is that it looks like China is supposed to be what the United States always was billed as, a "land of opportunity" with a dream that can be fulfilled. But, just like the United States, that dream is only fulfilled by a minority of people who live there, most just try to survive. This is as true in the United States as in China, I'm more interested in who is "left behind" in this new economy, not the minority who were at the right place at the right time. Reminds me of the "Rags to Riches" stories that are part and parcel of our own mythology, if you will.

[ProudDad]

119. So are you volunteering to work for $3 an hour???

As a computer programmer or call center phone operator?

That's about what the "properous middle class" in India makes...



http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0513/p01s04-wosc.html

[Deja Q]

127. I'm confused...

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=229323&messageID=2276915

India salaries now at par:
programmers in india are making 75% of what same would here in US. Due to lack of how well and how many and how quickly people can be trained for such.

Given your typical programmer in the US makes $75~$100/hr... maybe that author is wrong.

Regardless, the CSM is a site whose articles I've valued in the past. That's sad. Another glass ceiling?

[ProudDad]

130. Yes, it's a crock of shit

That's a post on a forum from some Indian apologist who obviously doesn't know crap.


The best that can be said of Indian programmer salaries is that

Some of the H1B's HERE may make 75% of a USAmerican's salary while they're working here in the U.S.

OR

Some Indian programmers in India may make a wage that when compared to the INDIAN standard of living is 75% of what a USAmerican's salary is compared to the U.S. standard of living...


But the "average" Indian programmer in India making 75% of the wage of an "average" USAmerican programmer in the U.S. -- No freakin' way...

The job I had that was sent to India paid me $80,000 per year plus benefits. The Indian(s) who got it (and it took more than one) were making about $10,000 each...


As for the $75 - $100 per hour programmer, the typical programmer with a few year's experience who still has a job in this country makes from $25,000 or so for a run-of-the-mill Access or VB programmer to about $100,000/$120,000 for a highly skilled assembly language process programmer.

That top salary is about $35-45 per hour since they're usually paid a fixed salary and then their asses are worked off -- 50-70+ hours per week.

A lot of them DO get free caffeine laced Cola though -- to keep them awake... :shrug:

[treestar]

161. That could well be middle class in India

Like living in LA here, where you'd make a higher number, but in relative terms, since the cost of living is so high, you wouldn't really be making more.

And the higher they float in India, the more of a market we have for whatever we sell.

It's not a tragedy for us if others do better. When I look around here, people are still middle class.

We're doing some job somewhere, or we couldn't afford to buy from other countries.

Outsourcing only makes sense if there is still a market for the goods or services. If the Indians or Chinese produce the goods but Americans couldn't buy them due to resulting unemployment, then it wouldn't pay to do it and the capitalists wouldn't do it.

The economy expands and gets more sophisticated. We are lucky to be on the top end. Why do we whine so much about third world countries taking the bottom end? And at least, for the benefit of the xenophobes, they aren't coming here as they traditionally did.

Expecting the economy to stay stagnant would kill us all. We'd have no computer programmers now if the typewriter industry had any say.

I remember a thread about robots replacing miners. It was as if people preferred to be thousands of feet underground rather than working in a robot factory. As if the robots come from nowhere totally assembled and it doesn't cost anything or take any labor to make them.

[Solon]

164. Another weak argument from treestar, why am I not surprised?

Look, we aren't talking about one industry being replaced by a better, more efficient industry or product, we are talking about the systematic elimination of domestic industry, by American owned companies, and moving it to another country, WITH NO REPLACEMENT in development at the same time. Seriously, what the hell are IT workers supposed to do now? Flip burgers?

[treestar]

165. Go to where the market demands IT workers or get a job managing

Indian IT workers.

Your insults just show the weakness of your argument. You're attacking me rather than the argument.

Flipping burgers is not a job middle class people have here. Don't exaggerate. We are the richest country in the world. How can we buy the cheap stuff from China (and find me an American consumer who doesn't look for the lowest price) if we are unemployed or flipping burgers?

The economy is not a stagnant thing that stays in one place forever. History proves that. It is always growing or expanding. Why aren't we all still using typewriters? The computer industry expanded and made many jobs that never existed before? What did IT workers do in the 1890s?

Why should it stop now? Don't be silly. You're in the richest nation in the world. If IT work is really that old fashioned as passe that it is passing to third world countries then move into the next great breakthrough.

[Solon]

166. You have no clue what the fuck the IT industry is, do you?

Its not like IT workers in India are running off of 8086 and 68000 CPUs in their country for crying out loud, the fact of the matter is that IT workers here do the EXACT same jobs as they do over in India, its just that Indian IT workers do it cheaper for American companies.

The IT industry is about 80% software, and 20% hardware design. Its doesn't matter how fast or advanced the computer is, it still runs off the same computer languages as 20 years ago, with some incremental or optimization improvements, whether its C(+,++), Assembly, hell, even Fortran and COBOL. They still run off of most of the same protocols, with, again, incremental improvements, that are close to 30 years old now(TCP/IP, etc.), and they are STILL considered "cutting edge".

You seem to be woefully misinformed about the industry, not to mention your assumption that moving from one place to another, even thousands of miles away, is free. To be honest, I'm done, you are simply too ignorant about this industry to even comment on it, and by the way, it IS the "next big thing", it doesn't even matter if we develop quantum computers within the next 5 years, guess what, they will STILL run off many of the same standards and technologies of today, just in a faster and more efficient way.

By the way, the economy may not be stagnant, but wages are, think about that.

[treestar]

94. So then the companies do have to outsource to stay in business

So why fault them for doing it?

Americans have to compete in the market, and should quit claiming exceptionalism and that their labor is worth more by sheer place of birth.

[Solon]

96. Their labor is worth more because of COST OF LIVING!!!!

Jesus fucking Christ on a trailer hitch, would you listen to yourself? The fact is that no American should practically starve just so they can remain "competitive" in a market they CANNOT compete in. This is like demanding Americans work for 3 cents an hour to make upholstery. It can't happen, so we should protect those industries, or set some international working standards.

[Lasher]

100. Odd how the global 'free' market is suddenly inescapable

Things were quite a bit different even just a decade ago. Some people today think this is an outdated old custom but I think tariffs on imported goods and services are a good idea. Some would call me a protectionist (evil-sounding label the corporatists like to throw around) but I think some things are worth protecting.

There are alternatives to this headlong rush to lower the American standard of living to that of third world countries. But none of them will be considered if Hillary gets elected president, theat's for sure.

[Solon]

102. The irony is that the standards of living aren't improving that much in third world nations either..

I used India and China as an example earlier. The big problem is that the reality isn't, for example, Mexican owned companies out competing American companies, its American companies removing manufacturing from here and moving it to a nation with cheaper wages. The most fucked up part of this is the fact that the products, in many cases, don't exactly reflect the labor costs at all. Look to name brand shoes or clothing(Nike, Reebok, Hilfiger, GAP, etc.), the labor costs are literally pennies per unit sometimes as low as half a percent of total retail price. And yet, Nike shoes cost how much, over 60 bucks or more. You cannot say that the materials in question make up a bulk of that price, more likely they are less than 10% of the price, I wonder what the profit margins are for these "manufacturers"?

So not only are workers being screwed, both here and abroad, but customers are being fleeced as well, and this is legal? Something has got to give here.

As far as standards of living, I feel it does need to change in the United States, to a more sustainable level, i.e. no more 2 cars and a garage, but all people should, at the very least, be able to have enough to eat to stay healthy, and have adequate shelter in a clean neighborhood. Apparently that's too much to ask for by these so called globalists. I don't fault the folks that are, in many cases, forced to work at these factories for slave wages, where they can barely afford one meal a day and a tin roofed shack to call home, I fault the owners and operators of those factories.

[Lasher]

103. On our current path third world standards of living will improve slightly

And the US standard of living will decline drastically.

Noticed and enjoyed your contributions upthread, Solon. Hope you have been doing well.

Lasher

[treestar]

160. Listen to yourself

You're claiming people are worth more just because they want to spend more.

[Solon]

163. What the FUCK!!!!!!

WANT to spend more? NO, cost of LIVING, not luxury. I'm talking about 3 things, and 3 things only, food, utilities, and shelter, that's the cost of living, and it isn't OPTIONAL!

[ProudDad]

120. Fine, workers would be happy to compete in the "market"

if we were allowed to join together in Union and gain the strength and mobility that capital have acquired.

We won't be though. We can't even join together here in the U.S. thanks to anti-labor legislation over the years culminating in Taft-Hartley and successive anti-union, anti-worker administrations of both right-wings of the Business party -- the Dems and the pukes...

Yes, the vast majority of working people in this benighted world should claim an exceptionalist position and demand the inalienable Rights of the Human Being.

[OhioChick]

79. "Why not get Americans to fill in the gap?"

Good Question.

Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers

April 4, 2007
A commonly heard defense in the arguments that surround U.S. companies that offshore high-tech and engineering jobs is that the U.S. math and science education system is not producing a sufficient number of engineers to fill a corporation's needs.

However, a new study from Duke University calls this argument bunk, stating that there is no shortage of engineers in the United States, and that offshoring is all about cost savings.

This report, entitled "Issues in Science and Technology" and published in the latest National Academy of Sciences magazine further explores the topic of engineering graduation rates of India, China and the United States, the subject of a 2005 Duke study.

In the report, concerns are raised that China is racing ahead of both the United States and India in its ability to perform basic research. It also asserts that the United States is risking losing its global edge by outsourcing critical R&D and India is falling behind by playing politics with education. Meanwhile, it considers China well-positioned for the future.

Duke's 2005 study corrected a long-heard myth about India and China graduating 12 times as many engineers as the United States, finding instead that the United States graduates a comparable number.

"You had the brightest kids worrying about their jobs being outsourced. We thought, if kids at Duke were worried, then let's do a study about what's going on in education," Vivek Wadhwa, executive in residence at Duke University's master's in engineering management program and a co-author of the study, told eWEEK at the time.

"The first thing you do in a study is you look at the facts. But we couldn't find any facts. The more we dug, the more we looked, the more we discovered there were no facts," said Wadhwa.

However, Duke's 2005 study reported serious problems with the quality of Indian and Chinese bachelor-level engineering graduates, and predicted both shortages in India and unemployment in China. The current report finds these predictions to be accurate, with China's National Reform Commission reporting that the majority of its 2006 graduates will not find work. There are also oft-heard whisperings of a engineering shortage in India, though private colleges and "finishing schools" are going far to make up for the Indian deficiencies, the report said.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2111347,00.asp

[lovuian]

65. Hillary is NOT for the American Worker

this is my biggest gripe about her plus she was a war hawk early on in the War in Iraq

[Virginia Dare]

73. Those are my two big beefs with her as well, however..

I can't see enabling any of the Repukes in winning should she get the nomination.

[CountAllVotes]

70. sorry Hillary, I cannot and will not support you

Your "policies" stink IMO. I'll vote for someone else, like Kucinich.

I really hope that RFK, Jr. runs. He'll be the next President of the United States if he does run.

Hillary will be nothing more than a faint memory should this occur.

The game is far from being over with luckily!

:kick:

[stressfulreality]

110. another Clinton administration = America's Death... and Kucinich

Kucinich will want to take our guns away, he will NOT get a vote from me.
i pray gun-grabbing trash will lose this race.

[ProudDad]

121. Oh, Dog

another irrevelant post from the "cold dead hands" group...

[stressfulreality]

122. you are implying that the Constitution is irrelevant?

if so then your statement doesn't even warrant a response.

[ProudDad]

125. Just take that stuff here

Get thee to the gungeon:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=118

That's where the "cold dead hands group" hangs out...

Welcome to DU :hi:

[stressfulreality]

145. "cold dead hands group" ???? what really scares me:

is that you people don't take gun rights seriously. i am a member of a VERY well organized militia and it is my Constitutional right to own a firearm. as much as you people here preach about "freedom" and "democracy" i can't believe that you don't understand how KEY the Constitution is to our freedom... it truly scares me.

oh, and thanks for the welcome... your the first :)

[Ken Burch]

149. For a second there, I thought you wrote "where 'the cold dead heads group' hangs out"

I was wondering why we'd have a group for shivering people in tie-dye.

[BigDDem]

74. BOO!!!!

If Hillary is elected you'll all lose your jobs, be very afraid.

P.S. There's a terrorist around every corner, watch out!!

[OhioChick]

76. Hillary's Stance on Outsourcing

is the #1 reason why she won't get my vote. (or votes from my collegues, for that matter)

[ChromeFoundry]

83. Same Here.

My voting for her would be the equivalent of a pink slip.

[Deja Q]

88. Same here.

Until somebody talks more about how globalization is going to help the rest of us, in plain English (and not with a coyly covered Indian accent by somebody borrowing the name "Jane" either, they even sell out their own names because of a misconception!), I will not support anybody that allows offshoring.

Or if we are headed to a one world government, just let us know. India and China are prospering and "word on the street" suggests people are not happy over the quality of products and services delivered. Too right people should start boycotting; not when hard earned money goes into such fragile slop. But I digress. When will Americans get to feel happy again? I will readily support real globalization. Not migration that's hurting American families. (and for all the threats India and China have made about sanctions and other things, they have no right to do so. They may as well allow their husbands to freely beat their wives; the relationship is no different.)

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

78. Most of those 200 workers will be insourced from India.

Bets?

[AzDar]

80. No more Clintons! No more Bushes! No more taking it in our Tushes!

[Lost4words]

81. I hope she does not get the nom, I wont vote for GOP lite!

NAFTA is the only GD reason I need. :puke:

[Deja Q]

90. Neither will I.

At least with a Republican I know what we're getting. With H1llary B Clinton in charge, who the hell knows what she'll do. She is not the Dems' friend you can bet your sweet bippy she's not the Repubs' friend either.

[mcscajun]

85. Wow. Was that 200 FTEs? 200 Whole Jobs? Wow.

:sarcasm:

But in Buffalo, the fruits of the Tata deal have been hard to find. The company, which called the arrangement Clinton's "brainchild," says "about 10" employees work here. Tata says most of the new employees were hired from around Buffalo. It declines to say whether any of the new jobs are held by foreigners, who make up 90% of Tata's 10,000-employee workforce in the United States.

Count me massively UNimpressed.
x(

[Deja Q]

86. That's been known for some time. Oh, she's a tata too.

A real boob.

[superconnected]

89. well she was a walmart lawyer for 6 years. Nothing news, and this is

why I abandonded her.

[OhioChick]

107. Hillary........A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing

Hillary Clinton stands up for Tatas, outsourcing

WASHINGTON: Former First Lady Hillary Clinton on Wednesday defended the general principles of free trade and outsourcing , while rejecting suggestions that she was allowing Indian info-tech major Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) to take away jobs from the state that elected her to the Senate.

The New York Senator was ambushed by CNN’s Lou Dobbs on his show, a daily outlet for anti-free trade rants, with questions about a TCS center she opened last year in Buffalo in upstate New York despite the company’s reputation as an 'outsourcer.'

"Of course, I know they outsource," Clinton retorted. "But they have also brought jobs and they intend to be a source of new jobs in the state."

Outsourcing works both ways, she told Dobbs and his constituency of anti-free traders who tried to corner her on the issue. While not minimizing the problems of job flight, she said free trade also provided opportunities for the US to attract jobs from around the world if they got the domestic diagnosis right.

The administration and the Congress needed to figure out changes in tax codes and trade laws to provide incentives for companies to keep jobs at home and create new jobs instead of blindly striking out against outsourcing.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/538674.c...

Senators form 'Friends of India'

WASHINGTON: A new bipartisan group called 'Friends of India' has been formed in the US Senate on the lines of the decade-old Congressional Caucus of India and Indian-Americans in the House of Representatives.

About 20 Senators have signed up for the new caucus, the first country-specific body in the Senate. It will be led by Texas Senator John Cornyn and co-chaired by New York’s Hillary Clinton.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/593175.c...


Offshoring Newsletters Hillary's name stands out

http://www.eng-i.com/E-Newsletters.htm

[HughBeaumont]

108. Different Party, but More of the Same.

America does not need a two-faced candidate. Like it was posted above, a real non-DLC, pro-worker Dem spells "pain in the ass" for the corporate class.

[sadiesworld]

109. kick

[redqueen]

111. Is ANYONE shocked by this?

:banghead:

UGH!

[ProudDad]

113. Yeah, Right...

:sarcasm:

"It's just two-faced," said John Miano, founder of the Programmers Guild, one of several high-tech worker organizations that have sprung up as outsourcing has expanded. "We see her undermining U.S. workers and helping the offshoring business, and then she comes back to the U.S. and says, 'I'm concerned about your pain.' "

Among Indian American activists, Clinton's work with Tata has been seen as a sign of her independence from outsourcing skeptics within her party — and a break from the Democrats' 2004 presidential nominee, Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, who lambasted "Benedict Arnold CEOs" for shipping jobs overseas.

The main lobbying organization for the Indian-American community, USINPAC, cites the Tata deal as one of Clinton's top three achievements as a senator — and evidence of a turnabout, in its view, from her past criticism of outsourcing. "Even though she was against outsourcing at the beginning of her political career," the USINPAC website says, "she has since changed her position and now maintains that offshoring brings as much economic value to the United States as to the country where services are outsourced, especially India."


The last two jobs I had before retiring for good were outsourced...not because I didn't have the Skills and Experience to do the job but because the Indians they hired would do an inferior job for 1/4 the money and the idiots running the company (into the ground -- they eventually sold out to their major competitor who DIDN'T outsource) were greedy and tried to please Wall Street.

Fuck this...the BIG LIE... not enough trained USAmericans... Not hardly!

Too many greedy, authoritarian workplaces driven by Wall Street is more like it... :grr:

[ProudDad]

124. Here's what Workers used to do

The 1936 - 37 Flint, Michigan Sit-Down Strike

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A672310

"When the night shift reported to work at the Fisher Body Plant Number One on 30 December, 1936, they were greeted by the sight of a string of railway cars being loaded with the manufacturing equipment in the plant. It was obvious that GM was planning to move production to a less unionized area. Workers immediately notified the union, which had its headquarters directly across the street from the factory. Union organisers hung a 200 watt red lamp in the office window, that being the prearranged signal for an emergency lunch hour meeting. At the meeting, which was crowded, the workers decided that the equipment represented their jobs, and so had to stay where it was.

Henry Kraus, a UAW editor who was at the meeting, described what came next:

The men stood still facing the door. It was like trying to chain a natural force. They couldn't hold back and started crowding forward. Then suddenly, they broke through the door and made a race for the plant gates, running in every direction towards the quarter-mile-long buildings.

One group of workers ran to the railroad dock. They yelled the words 'Strike on!' to the train's engineer. The engineer just nodded, said 'okay', waved to the brakeman to stop the work and walked off."

[progressivebydesign]

131. I was a big fan of hers until I saw how she's cozied up with these people.

This is not the first incident of her cozying up with outsourcers. More and more, I'm loving John Edwards. He seems to have the guts to speak out about this stuff.. and not snuggle with anyone that can gain donations. I'm sooo disappointed in her. I'd have HOPED that her work with children's organizations would have taught her something.. you know.. that if you take away the decent, wage-earner jobs, then kids in the US fall further and further behind.

[Algorem]

132. Hillary (R) Clinton?

useta think the R was for Rodham

[w4rma]

133. This is a dealbreaker for me. It's a dealbreaker in the general election for me. (nt)

[sadiesworld]

147. Thee and me.

I'll be sleeping in if she's the nom.

[lovuian]

150. Another reason I shake my head against Hillary

what happened to her
she use to be for our children and their futures

now she is a coporatist

[OhioChick]

151. You Got That Right. n/t

[Zhade]

153. The next time she says "I care about American workers"...

...rest assured, it's a bald-faced lie.

[killbotfactory]

155. Really? What does Hillary offer democrats?

Other than a pile of manure for us to eat, a symbolic victory, and the nostalgia of 90's economic growth?

That may suffice if she was the only democrat who could win the next election, but she is definitely not.

[Vidar]

156. And people are still asking many of us why we oppose Hillary.

Up until 2006, I would have had no problem voting for Hillary. She is tough & highly competent. It is stories like this, "Hillary woos outsourcers", reported on this site, that have forced me into the "anyone but Hillary" camp.

For Hillary & the vast majority of politicians politics has become all about money, doing the right thing & the constituents be damned. Hillary has sold out to the very same capitalist, corporate gangsters that control the current sad, little puppet in the White House

[MadHound]

157. Given her record, and the record of her husband, which she is leaning heavily on

This comes as no suprise. Hillary is nothing more than another corporpate whore, who will continue to sell out as many jobs as possible, all for the sake of globalization and the extra dollars that it brings her corporate masters.

Just one more reason that I won't vote for her. Her husbands initiating of "free" has already cost me one career, I hope that Hillary doesn't cost me another.

[Orsino]

158. By their compromises shall ye know them. n/t