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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 02:47 AM
Original message
Rallies as Venezuelan TV closes
Source: BBC News

Monday, 28 May 2007, 06:40 GMT 07:40 UK

Rallies as Venezuelan TV closes


Thousands of people have been marking the demise of an opposition TV station in Venezuela's capital Caracas as it ended broadcasts on Sunday night.

The atmosphere was tense and shots were fired as supporters and opponents of President Hugo Chavez's decision massed outside Radio Caracas TV's offices.

Within seconds of screens going blank, the insignia of a new state-sponsored broadcaster, TVES, appeared. Mr Chavez said RCTV had tried to undermine his government....

'Fight continues'

Thousands of supporters of the station took to the streets, banging pots and pans to show their anger at the decision. Meanwhile, fireworks exploded across the capital as Chavez supporters celebrated the end of the station - the only opposition-aligned channel with a national reach. All Sunday, the police had strived to keep both sides apart....

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6696699.stm



Thank You BBC News, for an actual Fair & balanced report. Fox "news" should take note of how this is written and learn. And never fear all you "...treasonous speech should be defended on the Public Airways too..." folks, the channel is still available on "the Cable," just not on the Public Airways.
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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. i posted this on another thread,
Edited on Mon May-28-07 02:55 AM by dsa
but it may be even more applicable here:

i don't trust hugo chavez

one of my best friends is from venezuela and her family has been absolutely terrorized by chavez's regime. he reminds me of the fascists in europe who abused the tools of democracy to create a dictatorship.

a private army answering only to chavez? imprisonment of political rivals? opposition parities made illegal? seizure of private property with no compensation? chavez given the power to rule by decree? now the media being taken over by the state? does anyone care what this guy is up to?!
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Sounds to me like your fiend has been telling you a bunch of lies...
...because you have a most of your facts wrong by almost a perfect 180 degrees.

Let me guess, your friend family has fled the country and is living here now, right? Have you ever asked her why or what Father does that he would need to leave the country? I bet he's a wealthy "businessman" who just wants to keep all the property and wealth he's acquired over the last 20-30 years, right?

Yeah, that's what the Cuban "capitalists" living in Miami will tell you too.
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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Additional reporting from BBC
describing the truth about Hugo Chavez


Rule by decree passed for Chavez
BBC - Friday, 19 January 2007

Venezuela's National Assembly has given initial approval to a bill granting the president the power to bypass congress and rule by decree for 18 months.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6277379.stm

-----

Chavez creates new loyal reserve
BBC - Thursday, 14 April 2005

Venezuela has sworn in commanders of a new military reserve which President Hugo Chavez says is meant to deter aggression against his country.

The new formation, which the president wants to become a two million-strong force in the near future, will be directly under his command.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4635187.stm

-----

Venezuela court orders TV seizure
BBC - Saturday, 26 May 2007

Venezuela's top court has allowed the government to take control of private TV transmitters as it prepares to replace commercial with state-run TV.

Of course that is what has angered so many thousands of people here.

Protesters say President Hugo Chavez is limiting freedom of expression and taking the country down the path of dictatorship.

But the president maintains he has the right to silence a channel that he says actively tries to undermine his government.

With huge protests planned this weekend, security in the city is tight.

In a show of force, dozens of military vehicles have filed through the roads of Caracas in a slow-moving cavalcade.

Mr Chavez has warned his followers that the country is under threat from those opposed to his militant rule.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6694245.stm

-----

Venezuela steps up land seizures
BBC - Monday, 26 March 2007
Venezuela's government has seized more than 330,000 hectares (815,450 acres) of land to redistribute them under an agrarian reform programme.

In the past five years, almost 2m hectares have been seized after being declared unproductive or because the owners did not have the property documents in order.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6494843.stm

-----

More on seizures of industry:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6245995.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6610333.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6621927.stm

-----

Venezuela jails opposition leader
BBC - Tuesday, 13 December 2005

A Venezuelan court has sentenced one of the most prominent leaders of the opposition to 15 years in prison.

Carlos Ortega, who once led powerful trade unions, was found guilty of inciting civil unrest during a strike that began in late 2002.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4526642.stm

-----

Venezuela votes on Sunday
BBC - 01 December, 2006

Overview of fears in the country...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/caribbean/news/story/2006/12/06120...

-----

Venezuela's middle class feels the squeeze
BBC - 29 November 2006

"I don't want my children to grow up in the kind of country that Chavez is creating," is a sentiment often expressed by members of Venezuela's middle classes as the presidential poll approaches.

This guys hits it right on the head...

One middle class man who is determined to stay and fight for change is Arturo Merizalde, a doctor who says he had to close down his surgery in a lower-middle class area of the capital after government policies left most of his patients jobless.

"I have always been a left-wing person. I supported Chavez the first year, but then it became indefensible," he says. "He is not a leftist - he is a fascist."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6186990.stm

-----

Chavez's 'citizen militias' on the march
BBC - Friday, 1 July 2005

The training of citizen-soldiers is part of an increasingly militaristic emphasis in the six-year-old 'Revolution for the Poor' headed by Mr Chavez, a former army paratrooper who led a failed military coup attempt in 1992.

During recent months, Venezuela has been buying 100,000 AK-47 rifles and military helicopters from Russia, as well as ships and planes from Brazil and Spain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4635187.stm

-----

Venezuela trains for guerrilla war
BBC - Monday, 6 March 2006

The first half-a-million adults are already being put through the four-month programme. The rest are expected follow over the coming months.

Alfredo Carquez reflects on his experiences as a new recruit for the territorial guard.

"At first my family wasn't too impressed that when I signed up," said Mr Carquez, a 43-year-old executive who works for the firm.

"But they have accepted it now because I explained to them that I feel obliged to defend my fatherland and any threat to the revolutionary process being carried out by President Chavez."

Retired Vice Admiral Mario Ivan Carratu Molina said: "Remember that the territorial guard is directly answerable to the president. So he could use it as an instrument of repression against a popular uprising, for example."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4777972.stm

-----

These represent only a handful of the more recent stories even on BBC documenting what Chavez is up to. Check them out if you think my facts are so far off.
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
56. And HOW is this is all different from all the same things the U. S. Government has done...???
Edited on Mon May-28-07 03:56 PM by Up2Late
Let's take these one by one:


Rule by decree passed for Chavez
BBC - Friday, 19 January 2007

Venezuela's National Assembly has given initial approval to a bill granting the president the power to bypass congress and rule by decree for 18 months.


Have you heard about all the "Executive Orders," "Signing Statements" or "Recess Appointments"??? *Bush has done a LOT of this over the last 6 years during his so-called "war on terror," (most U.S. Presidents have done this, but to a much lesser extent), but Chavez is doing this in response to U.S. sponsored training of Columbian Guerrilla forces on his western border, not some "long war" half-way around the world. And at least Chavez does this in public.



Chavez creates new loyal reserve
BBC - Thursday, 14 April 2005

Venezuela has sworn in commanders of a new military reserve which President Hugo Chavez says is meant to deter aggression against his country.

The new formation, which the president wants to become a two million-strong force in the near future, will be directly under his command.

Duh, same as the in the U.S., read the oath our solders take when they join the Military and the "Commander-in-Chief" provision.


Venezuela court orders TV seizure
BBC - Saturday, 26 May 2007

Venezuela's top court has allowed the government to take control of private TV transmitters as it prepares to replace commercial with state-run TV.

Of course that is what has angered so many thousands of people here.

Protesters say President Hugo Chavez is limiting freedom of expression and taking the country down the path of dictatorship.

"Protesters say..." Yes, that's what Opposition Protesters say, it doesn't make it true.

So, when "Protesters say..." that Democrats "...hate America and don't support the troops...", does that mean it true? No, it's just what "Protesters say...."


Venezuela steps up land seizures
BBC - Monday, 26 March 2007
Venezuela's government has seized more than 330,000 hectares (815,450 acres) of land to redistribute them under an agrarian reform programme.

In the past five years, almost 2m hectares have been seized after being declared unproductive or because the owners did not have the property documents in order.

Sounds a lot like what the U.S. Government did to the Native people here in North America in the 19th and 20th Century, except in reverse, doesn't it? Except on a much smaller scale.


Venezuela jails opposition leader
BBC - Tuesday, 13 December 2005

A Venezuelan court has sentenced one of the most prominent leaders of the opposition to 15 years in prison.

Carlos Ortega, who once led powerful trade unions, was found guilty of inciting civil unrest during a strike that began in late 2002.

Yes, Ever heard of "The Riot Act?" Well we have a version of that too:


<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_Act#United_States >
United States

The principle of the Riot Act was incorporated into the first Militia Act (1 Stat. 264) of May 8, 1792. The act's long title was "An act to provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions".

Section 3 of the Militia Act gave power to the President to issue a proclamation to "command the insurgents to disperse, and retire peaceably to their respective abodes, within a limited time", and authorized him to use the militia if they failed to do so. Substantively identical language is presently codified at chapter 15 of title 10, United States Code. See 10 U.S.C. 331-35 (2006).




Venezuela votes on Sunday
BBC - 01 December, 2006

Overview of fears in the country...
So..., What? What's the problem here? Sound very familiar too.



Venezuela's middle class feels the squeeze
BBC - 29 November 2006

"I don't want my children to grow up in the kind of country that Chavez is creating," is a sentiment often expressed by members of Venezuela's middle classes as the presidential poll approaches....

...One middle class man who is determined to stay and fight for change is Arturo Merizalde, a doctor who says he had to close down his surgery in a lower-middle class area of the capital after government policies left most of his patients jobless.

"I have always been a left-wing person. I supported Chavez the first year, but then it became indefensible," he says. "He is not a leftist - he is a fascist."


First, here is the main problem with all this. Language and perception. This DOCTOR calls himself "middle class" and works in a "lower-middle class area," Yet, read a little further and it says that "...Mr Merizalde, who now organises rallies of 4x4 vehicles...."

Now that might sound "Middle Class" to you and your collage friends here in America, but if you compare this Doctor and his 4x4 (SUV) buddies to the majority of the people of Venezuela who, before Chavez took office, didn't have shoes for their children, or clean water, or well built houses, he sounds pretty Upper Class to me and to most people living in poverty.


Chavez's 'citizen militias' on the march
BBC - Friday, 1 July 2005

The training of citizen-soldiers is part of an increasingly militaristic emphasis in the six-year-old 'Revolution for the Poor' headed by Mr Chavez, a former army paratrooper who led a failed military coup attempt in 1992.

During recent months, Venezuela has been buying 100,000 AK-47 rifles and military helicopters from Russia, as well as ships and planes from Brazil and Spain.
Do you have any Idea how much the U.S. Military spends on weapons and solders in comparison to this? The amount Chavez is spending would be considered a "rounding error" if the Pentagon was calculating this.


Venezuela trains for guerrilla war
BBC - Monday, 6 March 2006

The first half-a-million adults are already being put through the four-month programme. The rest are expected follow over the coming months.

Alfredo Carquez reflects on his experiences as a new recruit for the territorial guard.

"At first my family wasn't too impressed that when I signed up," said Mr Carquez, a 43-year-old executive who works for the firm.

"But they have accepted it now because I explained to them that I feel obliged to defend my fatherland and any threat to the revolutionary process being carried out by President Chavez."

Retired Vice Admiral Mario Ivan Carratu Molina said: "Remember that the territorial guard is directly answerable to the president. So he could use it as an instrument of repression against a popular uprising, for example."
And this is different or wrong because...?

Let me ask you about this one. If *Bush knew that Russia was spending large amounts of money to build up and train the Mexican Army for future Guerrilla raids into the U.S., would you think it was a bad thing for *Bush to spend at least as much money to prepare for this coming invasion? I think even I would agree with him on this one.

(I'm sure there are a few typos in here that I'm not seeing, that's normal for me too. Also, I didn't correct the British spellings on purpose.)
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #56
90. Using Bush as the a standard or even a
bar of comparison is not an impressive tactic. It makes Chavez look even worse.
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mediawatch Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
52. excuse me
may I ask what is wrong with one keeping all their property and wealth that they have acquired over the last 20-30 years?

I plan on keeping mine, not much but still mine
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #52
63. And if you do become wealthy in an ethical way, I would agree with you.
You should keep what you make if you did it in a legal and ethical way.

I was referring to a hypothetical "wealthy person" who acquired their wealth by exploiting the Venezuelan poor, something the RW governments of the past turned a blind eye to for decades.
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DerBeppo Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #63
145. and who decides what is ethical? Would you want * to decide for you?
That's the test that should always be applied to political power grabs.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #52
67. There are certain conditions that must be met, and it was based on our Homestead Act.
The land has to be lying fallow and they are paid fair market price for the land.
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Socal31 Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
123. Geez....
Another person so blinded they can not see that Chavez is just another Authoritarian rising to power....ive said it before...

My Uncle called Bush the Devil too, doesnt mean I cant hate him.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. You owe it to yourself to start doing your homework and find out about each one of your claims.
No one can force you to know the truth and stop spreading disinformation. This is something you've got to undertake yourself. No one can learn it for you.

What you've written is gibberish. No one around here has hours to spend trying to straighten it all out.

Get busy and start reading like the rest of us. Do your research yourself. Don't take stupid remarks from other people who don't know what they're talking about, either.

Some of us care, all right, and we're the ones who have been spending time every week reading everything we can find on Latin America. You owe it to DU'ers to know what you're talking about before you start opining here. Without knowledge of the subject, you simply aren't able to contribute.
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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. My friends brother is in prison!
Chavez's militia rounded him up in 2006 because he dared attend a rally protesting when Chavez's party took over every seat in the country's Congress. My friend left Venezuela in 2005 but her parents are there trying to free their son. My friend is trying to make enough money to pay for them, her surviving grandparents, and other relatives to leave. She may not be able to get them into the US but she's hoping to get them to relative safety in Aruba or elsewhere in the Caribbean.

No, they are not rich. This is the most common argument I see from Chavez-defenders. Anyone who opposes him must be a wealthy exploiter of the poor. What a crock. My friend's family is at best middle class and they had to spend almost every dime to send her to school in the US for a chance at a better life. Chavez has foes at all levels of the socio-economic scale. Only problem is if they make much of noise about the unfairness of his policies, they don't stay free for long.

I resent the insinuation that I haven't done my research. I have conducted extensive reviews of sources around the world to build a picture of what is going on in the country independent of what my friend says. Chavez and his henchmen are acting just like the Nazis did when they gained power in Germany in 1933. They use tactics of intimidation to suppress opposition and make up phony emergencies justifying the extensive growth of his powers.

Before the 2005 election, Chavez made statements that his presidential term would be extended until 2030 (25 years!) to insure he had the opportunity to consolidate his "revolution." In his defense, I will admit I haven't been able to confirm whether he was successful in making himself "president for life," but is this really the kind of guy you want to defend? What hypocrisy to criticize the abuses of Bush-co over the Patriot Act when Chavez is doing at least as much to subvert democracy in Venezuela.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Really! Pffffft. Arrested for attending a rally. Yeah, right.
By the way, DU'ers were reading BEFORE that election when the opposition was talking about BOYCOTTING THE ELECTION. They discussed this long in advance. We have threads here in archives in which we all talked about it then.

Try to follow the thought: if the opposition BOYCOTTS the election, what WOULD be the consequence? Well, it's possible THEY WOULD OBVIOUSLY LOSE THEIR SEATS in the National Assembly when they don't vote to keep them. How stupid can one be?

The reason they boycotted, which was discussed here, is that they knew they were going to lose their asses, that after their short-lived coup, after their labor lock-out, after their referendum, after it was known they accept money given them by the Bush administration, the opposition by God was not about likely to do well. Rather than live with failure, they tried to distract the stupid element, gullible right-wingers, by claiming the other side grabbed all the seats in their National Assembly.

It doesn't take a genius to "get" this.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Maybe if he attended a rally drunk, naked, or carrying grenades.... Otherwise, it doesn't sell.










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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thanks for your compassion
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. When they came for me. I think I know what you mean.
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merwin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I love that! It's amazing how people can believe so many lies...
I'm just surprised that Chavez let that station's license go until it expired. He had reason and the right to revoke it the instant the station called for a violent uprising against the government. But he didn't revoke it, so he must be a dictator... right?

I love how all the restraint he's showing regarding this is being spun against him to somehow prove how much of a dictator he is.

How about next time I get my license taken away for driving drunk too many times, I declare Washington State a dictatorship! It's simple cause and effect. You do something stupid, you face the consequences. They called for a violent illegal uprising, and they didn't get their license renewed. How terrible!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DerBeppo Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
146. the revocation of thelicense isn't the issue
it's the refusal to allow another non-state run station to take its place.

Must...control...information...
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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. See this post
if you are so confident in your beliefs.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Who told you the BBC is objective? Are you that gullible?
As a suggestion, it's sensible to post one charge at a time, and point out the claim made so people can discuss it. You aren't going to get a lot of feedback when you drag a collection of links in and claim this is all the proof they could ever need.

We have discussed all these areas over the years, after reading extensively. That's why we have arrived at the conclusions we hold.

No one's going to take hours to address each one. Pick one, and deal with that, then move on to the next topic on your list. It's the mature way to go about it.

That's the way we have addressed these events as they were brought to our attention: one at a time.
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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. BBC is good enough for the original post when it supports your view
but not good enough when it doesn't? I used BBC because they do extensive international reporting and have a much better archive of older stories than most other news sites. I can probably find the same information elsewhere if you like. Though I'm sure you'll then state they all lie and the only trustworthy source in Chavez's state-owned media.

Since my post was information overload for you, let's just pick this one item--his creation of a militia independent of the military or police and under his direct personal control. I consider this to be one of the most concerning of Chavez's actions. How do you defend it?

Chavez creates new loyal reserve
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4635187.stm

Chavez's 'citizen militias' on the march
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4635187.stm

Venezuela trains for guerrilla war
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4777972.stm
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Take your first link. I can't imagine you think you'll fool anyone here other than visiting
right-wingers.

Here's only a glimpse of a TON of material available on this subject:
The Venezuelan elite imports soldiers
by Marta Harnecker
May 23, 2004

~snip~
Since 'the conspiracies against Venezuela do not end with the capture of mercenaries in Caracas,' there must be many other infiltrators in other areas of the country; since this is not an isolated action, but one whose efforts to stop the process continue, one can reach but only one conclusion: it is necessary to prepare oneself for self-defense. This is why the President considered it opportune to take advantage of the occasion and to announce three strategic lines for defending the country. The most radical proposal was a call for the population to massively participate in the defense of the nation.

A week earlier, on the 9th of May, on the outskirts of Caracas, a paramilitary force was discovered, dressed in field uniforms. Later, more were found, raising the total to 130, leaving open the possibility that there are still more in the country. The three Colombian paramilitary leaders of the group are members of the Autonomous Self-Defense Forces (AUC) in Northern Santander state in Colombia.

Some of the captured Colombian fighters have a long history as members of paramilitary forces. Others are reservists of the Colombian army and yet others were specifically recruited for the task in Venezuela and were surely tricked. Among these there are several who are minors.

A colonel of the Venezuelan air force was also detained, as well as seven officers of the National Guard. Among those implicated in the plot is a group of civilians headed by the Cuban Roberto Alonso, creator of the 'guarimbas,'<1> and Gustavo Quintero Machado, a Venezuelan, both who are currently wanted by the Venezuelan justice system.

What the real objectives were is now being discussed. One of them could have been to steal weapons so as to then attack the Miraflores presidential palace and President Chavez himself.

The government denounced the existence of an international plot in which the governments of the United States and of Colombian would be involved. U.S. Ambassador Shapiro denied that his country had any participation in the incident. And the Colombian president, for his part, solidarized himself with the Venezuelan government, affirming that he supports its actions against the members of the irregular Colombian military group, which then caused Chavez to publicly announce that he was convinced that President Alvaro Uribe did not have anything to do with the plot, even though he insisted on leveling charges against a Colombian general by the name of Carreo.

Even though the oppositional media conducted a big campaign to minimize the issue, trying to accuse the government of having organized a montage, so as to have a pretext for taking forceful measures that would impede a confrontation at the voting booth, every day more evidence surfaces that confirm the official version.

The Colombian attorney general's office has evidence that proves that paramilitary fighters were recruited and then transported to Venezuela and that extreme right-wing groups infiltrated intelligence services in the border town of Ccuta. The proof was shown on the news program 'The Independent Network.' The program broadcast some intercepted recordings of paramilitary soldiers in Ccuta, in which the operations they carried out in Venezuelan territory are reviewed.
(snip)
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=5579

By the way, the recently removed head of Uribe's national security department has ADMITTED recently he knew of this. It was discussed fully here, over and over.



Colombian paramilitaries captured at a ranch owned by Cuban right-wing exile Roberto Alonso


January 25, 2005

The Granda Kidnapping Explodes
The US / Colombia Plot Against Venezuela
By JAMES PETRAS

A major diplomatic and political conflict has exploded between Colombia and Venezuela after the revelation of a Colombian government covert operation in Venezuela, involving the recruitment of Venezuelan military and security officers in the kidnapping of a Colombian leftist leader. Following an investigation by the Venezuelan Ministry of Interior and reports and testimony from journalists and other knowledgeable political observers it was determined that the highest echelons of the Colombian government, including President Uribe, planned and executed this onslaught on Venezuelan sovereignty.

Once direct Colombian involvement was established, the Venezuelan government demanded a public apology from the Colombian government while seeking a diplomatic solution by blaming Colombian Presidential advisers. The Colombian regime took the offensive, launching an aggressive defense of its involvement in the violation of Venezuelan sovereignty and, beyond that, seeking to establish in advance, under the rationale of "national security" the legitimacy of future acts of aggression. As a result President Chavez has recalled the Venezuelan Ambassador from Bogota, suspended all state-to-state commercial and political agreements pending an official state apology. In response the US Government gave unconditional support to Colombian violation of Venezuelan sovereignty and urged the Uribe regime to push the conflict further. What began as a diplomatic conflict over a specific incident has turned into a major, defining crises in US and Latin American political relations with potentially explosive military, economic and political consequences for the entire region.

In justifying the kidnapping of Rodrigo Granda, the Colombian leftist leader, the Uribe regime has promulgated a new foreign policy doctrine which echoes that of the Bush Administration: the right of unilateral intervention in any country in which the Colombian government perceives or claims is harboring or providing refuge to political adversaries (which the regime labels as "terrorists") which might threaten the security of the state. The Uribe doctrine of unilateral intervention echoes the preventive war speech, enunciated in late 2001 by President Bush. Clearly Uribe's action and pronouncement is profoundly influenced by the dominance that Washington exercises over the Uribe regime's policies through its extended $3 billion dollar military aid program and deep penetration of the entire political-defense apparatus.

Uribe's offensive military doctrine involves several major policy propositions:
1.) The right to violate any country's sovereignty, including the use of force and violence, directly or in cooperation with local mercenaries.

2.) The right to recruit and subvert military and security officials to serve the interests of the Colombian state.

3.) The right to allocate funds to bounty hunters or "third parties" to engage in illegal violent acts within a target country.

4.) The assertion of the supremacy of Colombian laws, decrees and policies over and against the sovereign laws of the intervened country
(snip)
http://www.counterpunch.org/petras01252005.html



More captured Colombian paramilitaries


Published on Monday, May 17,
by the Agence France Presse
Thousands Protest Colombian Paramilitary Presence in Venezuela
Chavez to Set up 'People's Militia'

President Hugo Chavez announced his government would establish "people's militias" to counter what he called foreign interference after an alleged coup plot by Colombian paramilitaries Caracas claims was financed by Washington.

Chavez also said he would boost the strength of Venezuela's armed forces as part of a new "anti-imperialist" phase for his government.

"Each and every Venezuelan man and woman must consider themselves a soldier," said Chavez.

"Let the organization of a popular and military orientation begin from today."

The president's announcement came a week after authorities arrested 88 people described as Colombian paramilitaries holed up on property belonging to a key opposition figure.
(snip/...)

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0517-04.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
12.30pm update

Colombian paramilitaries arrested in Venezuela

Jeremy Lennard and agencies
Monday May 10, 2004

Venezuelan police have arrested more than 70 Colombian paramilitary fighters who were allegedly plotting to strike against the government in Caracas, according to the country's president, Hugo Chvez.
Opposition leaders, however, were quick to dismiss the president's claim, calling the raids on a farm less than 10 miles from the capital a ruse to divert attention from their efforts to oust Mr Chvez in a recall vote.

During his weekly radio and TV broadcast, Hello Mr President, Mr Chvez said that 53 paramilitary fighters were arrested at the farm early on Sunday and another 24 were picked up after fleeing into the countryside.
The country's security forces were uncovering additional clues and searching for more suspects, he said, adding that the arrests were proof of a conspiracy against his government involving Cuban and Venezuelan exiles in Florida and neighbouring Colombia.
(snip/...)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,1213445,00...



More captured Colombian paramilitaries
Three Venezuelan Officers and 27 Colombians Sentenced for Assassination Plot
A Venezuelan military court sentenced three Venezuelan military officers and 27 Colombians to two to nine years of prison for plotting an assault on Venezuelas presidential palace and the assassination of President Hugo Chavez.Another 73 Colombians and 3 Venezuelan officers, who had also been suspected of participating in the plot, were freed after spending 17 months in prison.

118 Colombians were captured in May 2004 on a ranch just outside of Caracas, wearing Venezuelan military fatigues. Many of them appeared to be Colombian paramilitary fighters who had been recruited for a mission in Venezuela to attack the Chavez government and to kill the president. Six Venezuelan officers were also arrested in the course of the investigation.
Some of the Colombians were peasants who had been lured to come to Venezuela with the promise of jobs. Upon arriving, though, they were forced to engage in paramilitary training exercises and were forbidden to leave the ranch. 18 of the Colombians were released immediately after the capture and returned to Colombia because they were minors between 15 and 17 years. The ranch belongs to Roberto Alonso, a prominent Cuban-Venezuelan opposition activist. The highest level officer to be sentenced was General Ovidio Poggioli, who had been charged with military rebellion and was sentenced to 2 years and ten months of prison. The other two Venezuelan officers are Colonel Jess Farias Rodrguez and Captain Rafael Farias Villasmil, who were each sentenced to nine years of prison. The 27 Colombians were each sentenced to six years prison.
When the group of Colombians were first arrested, many opposition leaders argued that the government had staged the arrests, in order to make the opposition look bad. They pointed out that no weapons were found with the paramilitary fighters and that the whole operation looked far too amateurish to have any chance of success. Also, it was argued that it is practically impossible to transport 120 Colombian paramilitary fighters undetected all the way from Colombia to Caracas, considering that there are numerous military control points along the way.
(snip)
http://www.voltairenet.org/article130297.html

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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. and you said MY post was too long?
Edited on Mon May-28-07 08:25 AM by dsa
In spite of the length, you still didn't explain why Chavez needs a militia of two million people and why they are under his direct authority.

Read up on the German Sturmabteilung or SA, a paramilitary organ of the Nazi Party that reported directly to Hitler. Compare Venezuela's "citizen militia" that answers directly to Chavez. The parallels between them are uncanny. Chavez's people even refer to themselves defending "the fatherland"!

You may choose to dismiss it all as right-wing propaganda, and that is your choice. I look at Chavez and see the makings of the next dictator. He creates phony enemies in the Venezuelan upper classes and claims the U.S. is trying to assassinate him to mislead and take advantage of the poor he says he's fighting for. The German parallel came when Hitler focused the hatred of the lower classes against the "wealthy Jews" and against England and France for the harsh and unfair terms imposed on Germany after World War I. Chavez himself has even attacked the Jews when he said, "minorities, the descendants of those who crucified Christ, have taken over the riches of the world."

By distracting people with these threats, Chavez claims he needs extraordinary powers to protect the nation and return power to the downtrodden (just as Hitler did).

Chavez uses his militia to intimidate the opposition into offering nothing more than token resistance in elections until his cronies hold every office (just as Hitler did).

With control of the legislature, Chavez grants himself the power to rule be decree and rewrite the constitution to extend his presidential term indefinitely (just as Hitler did).

Chavez takes advantage of his new powers to further suppress the opposition by eliminating media outlets that criticize his actions (just as Hitler did).

Chavez proclaims foreigners and corrupt Venezuelans are responsible for all the country's economic woes, so the state seizes private land and businesses (just as Hitler did).

To further consolidate his power grab, Chavez proclaims the country is being undermined from without and within and must invest is a major military build-up to defend itself with massive purchases of guns and aircraft (just as Hitler did).

His revolution well in hand at home, Chavez turns his attention to nearby countries like Cuba, Peru, and Bolivia and begins providing direct support to revolutionaries sharing his anti-democratic views (just as Hitler did in Italy, Spain, Hungary, and Bulgaria).

Now with well-armed fanatical supporters at home and international allies, Chavez is emboldened to rattle his sabers and threatens to seize lands he believes are rightfully his--the Dutch islands of Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao (just as Hitler did in the Ruhr, Austria, and Czechoslovakia).

What happens next? I can't say, but I would not be at all surprise if an attempt is made to take the Dutch Caribbean islands ether by force or intimidation. If successful, as I suspect is likely given the Netherlands' dependence on Venezuelan oil, an invasion of Colombia could well be part of Chavez's future plans.


"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
- George Santayana
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junior college Donating Member (290 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #29
119. Are liberals going to tax your twinkies
to pay for Medicare?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. You know, I think you might appreciate THIS link from Human Rights Watch.
The snip I'm posting concerns the head of the DAS, the Colombian spy group, Jorge Noguera, who has been relieved of duty since he was "outed" recently in testimony, and his connection to plans to assassinate Venezuelan politicians, and this also includes Hugo Chavez.

This should help you in your time of need:
Colombia: Uribe Must End Attacks on Media
Government Should Investigate Charges of Extrajudicial Executions, Fraud

~snip~
Over the last two weeks, major news media have extensively reported on allegations of paramilitary infiltration of the Colombian executive branch's intelligence agency (Departamento Administrativo de Seguridad, or DAS), targeted killings of labor union leaders and academics, and electoral fraud in the 2002 presidential elections. President Uribe has reacted by charging the news media with being dishonest and malicious, and with harming Colombian democratic institutions.
(snip)

According to Garca's statements to prosecutors and journalists, for approximately three years the DAS worked in extremely close contact with several paramilitary groups, particularly the "Northern Block" led by paramilitary commander "Jorge 40." He claims that these links were established by Jorge Noguera, then director of the DAS and currently the Colombian Consul in Milan. Among Garca's many detailed allegations, which have received extensive coverage in Colombia, are:
  • Extrajudicial executions of labor union leaders: Garca states that during this period the DAS provided the paramilitaries with lists of labor union leaders and academics, many of whom were subsequently threatened or killed.

  • Electoral fraud: According to Garca, Noguera collaborated with the paramilitaries to carry out massive electoral fraud when he was Uribe's campaign director in Magdalena state during the 2002 presidential elections. Garca alleges that the fraud resulted in 300,000 additional votes for Uribe. A similar plan, he claims, had also been implemented in congressional elections in several northern states. If proven, his allegations would confirm recent studies attributing highly unusual voting patterns in the 2002 congressional elections to electoral fraud.

  • Political assassination in Venezuela: Garca recently said in an interview that the DAS collaborated with paramilitaries in a plot to assassinate several Venezuelan leaders, including President Hugo Chavez and a prosecutor, Danilo Anderson. More than 100 alleged paramilitaries were arrested near the Venezuelan capital of Caracas, and a few months later, Anderson was killed. Based on testimony by one of those arrested, Venezuelan authorities have charged former DAS director Noguera with knowledge of the alleged plot.
    (snip)
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/04/17/colomb13196.htm
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Thanks for quoting HRW
Here's what they have to say about the RCTV issue

Venezuela: TV Shutdown Harms Free Expression

President Hugo Ch?ez is misusing the state's regulatory authority to punish a media outlet for its criticism of the government. The move to shut down RCTV is a serious blow to freedom of expression in Venezuela.

Of the three commercial stations accessible in all parts of Venezuela, only RCTV has remained strongly critical of the government. The other two tenevision and Televen뾵ere themselves accused of supporting the attempted coup and subsequent antigovernment protests. But both have since removed virtually all content critical of the government from their programming.

***Thought I'd throw that in for thought. Or is HRW secretly a Neoconservative anti-Chavez organization set out to destroy Chavez.***

Also, I find it interesting that the Venezuelan Government has seen fit to make the largest public television station in Venezuela a 'State Run Station'

link: http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2007/05/22/venezu15986....

From Amnesty Internation (Maybe they're also a Neo-con organization):

VENEZUELA
BOLIVARIAN REPUBLIC OF VENEZUELA

Most human rights violations committed by members of the security forces remained unpunished. Human rights defenders and journalists were threatened, intimidated and attacked.

Human rights violations, including torture, extrajudicial executions and enforced disappearances perpetrated by members of the security forces remained unpunished.

link:
http://thereport.amnesty.org/page/1086/eng /

Even the Nation Magazine has questioned this situation. (Once again, probably secretly neo-con publication)


on note:
Chavez isn't perfect, he isn't a saint. He's better than what was before him.

You can defend him all day, but your 'research' does not necessarily make you more informed on this topic than others who have done research.

I have read numerous articles about Chavez pro and con from a variety of sources -- many from the region. I don't live in the United States and have not for a decade, so save me your MSM bias comments. (I live in Asia)

Chavez has aligned himself with some of the world's worst dictators and he is an apologist for them (Gim Jeong-il, Robert Mugabe and the like). If you're going to judge people by the company they keep, he's in bed with some of the worst (and in the case of Gim -- the worst)
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INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
51. "Thanks for quoting HRW"
LOL! Zing!
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #51
80. Well get ready. The Venezuelan govt has announced that it's investigating Globovision TV
See how quickly the Chavez camp spins that story into Globovision being some sort of reichwing organization undermining Democracy.

Oh...the government of Venezuela also has a law (or is set to pass a law) that will require Media only to print the truth -- How do you know if the law has been violated? -- The Government will decide.

What I find interesting is...Putin is immensely popular in Russia. My Putin-hating Russian sister-in-law begrudgingly admits that. Yet, here he is fair game -- as he should be.
Criticize Chavez and his supporters leap on you en masse as if you're some sort of pro-Bush, anti-Democracy troll that comes on DU to smear the hero of the world's poor and down-trodden. (Even though Chavez is an apologist for the PDK -- North Korean Government)
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
59. HRW sometimes plays a negative role.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArti...

They certainly aren't big on supporting national sovereignty, and in the current context, that's very dangerously close to supporting Western aggression.

I always thought, if anything, Chavez was far too forgiving and generous to those among his opponents who committed high treason in supporting the fascist coup of 2002. They should have all been arrested immediately and trials commence with no mercy given. Then, these whimpering RCTV executives would likely be behind bars where they most assuredly belong.

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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #59
79. Amnesty and Nation also have criticized his government for different things
Edited on Tue May-29-07 12:44 AM by rpannier
The Nation has criticized this move.

There were three major networks that supported the coup in 2002. The other two eliminated any criticism of Chavez and they're not under investigation over their behavior in 02.

That's part of my problem with this whole affair.

edited: Because my original response was rude and I apologise as your response was in no way rude or inappropriate.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #23
36. Heneeds the militia to crush his enemies - the enemies of the people
And crush them he must if there is to be peace and justice. It is time to clear the weeds and get rid of the roaches.

Crush them.
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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #36
120. No, he needs his militia to intimidate and control opposition
Just like Hitler needed the brown shirts, Stalin needed the KGB, Mussolini needed the black shirts, and Mugabe needs the ZRP.

Venezuela already has a standing military capable of national defense. The militia Chavez is building is a completely separate institution under his direct control. It will be used to coerce the population and put down any attempt to challenge his consolidation of absolute power.
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auburnblu Donating Member (536 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
73. Forget BBC, are national networks there covering
Sometimes when protests happen in that land of Red freedom know as China, seems like the events don't get a lot of media coverage. I wonder if the stations in Venezuela are covering the events? Would be interesting to see what the coverage is in the press. If the media transforms so that the reporting of negative news against Chavez is minimzed or essentially disappears, then that is a major concern.
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
64. I just did, but only because it was so easy (after a little sleep).
O.K., where's the next challange? The only people I stay away from are the Mugabe supporters, those people very difficult to deal with, as the fact don't matter to most of them at all.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
43. lol judi
Get the net!
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UnyieldingHierophant Donating Member (249 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #7
28. ...don't try to use facts and reason here...for this topic,
not many want to hear it
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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Yeah, I was prepared for that
I've argued this topic before and run into people who think Chavez is so wonderful that his farts don't stink.
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INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
37. Perfect post...
"This is the most common argument I see from Chavez-defenders. Anyone who opposes him must be a wealthy exploiter of the poor. What a crock."

100% dead on. SOME posters (who even be on this thread right now) tried to argue that only the rich elite oppose Chavez. When I pointed to polls showing that can't possibly true (since 30%-40% of the population can't possibly be wealthy elite), he/she claimed the polls and demonstrations were inflated by elite's minions and servants, serving their rich masters. LOL!
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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Thanks for your support
Even if you are a Steelers fan! ;)
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Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
50. Give a name
Otherwise it is a lie.
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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #50
93. I'm not going to share her family's personal information
without her prior permission. As you can imagine, this is a very sensitive issue with lives at stake.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #93
111. hmmm, must be a member of "the goon squad" and has a "need to know"
who is the little girl !

Actually, it shouldn't matter what we outsiders think. I had a BBC "world have your say" article with comments from Hugo's homeland.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/4350254.stm
...I'm guessing they were the elite that worked for Royal Dutch Shell and have a beef and point of view that outsiders don't want to hear
/sarc

interesting links of BBC articles here worth saving;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Nobody can deny the fact that a witch hunt is underway and it's not on this forum board
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
60. O.K., since you are new here, I'm going to tell you this once. Don't compare Chavez to Hitler or...
...the Nazis.

Comparing Chavez (or anyone else except possibly Joseph Stalin) to Hitler and the Nazis, is wrong and indefensible.

MOST of my Father's side of the family were murdered by the Nazis during WW2 as part of his so-called "final solution" and my Grand-Aunt, who Jews would not consider Jewish, but the Nazis did, survived 18 months as a prisoner of the Nazis (in two prison camps which included Auschwitz-Berkinow) for her work in The French Resistance.

Nothing currently going on in the world should be compared to what Hitler did.
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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #60
94. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade
The parallels between the rise of fascism in Europe and what Chavez and his compatriots are up to in Latin America are chilling.

Granted, I understand your point about the Holocaust and don't see Chavez doing anything comparable against some ethnic or religious group. But the way he manipulates people by playing one group against another and twists the institutions of democracy to give himself absolute power is straight out of 1930s Germany.
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #94
98. No. Sorry to tell you, but you are completely wrong when you call him a Fascist.
Fascism and Socialism are almost complete opposites on the political spectrum.

Chavez is a Socialist, Hitler was a Fascist.

This is the scale most people in this country know and accept, though I see how you could be confused after doing a Google search, there is a lot of circular logic and "Political Compass" talk going on, which appears to have a lot of folks confused.

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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #98
102. Where does a plain and simple dictator sit?
Edited on Tue May-29-07 02:08 PM by DuaneBidoux
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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #98
118. There's not a hill of beans difference between what Chavez is doing
and what the fascists did. The only difference is the (false) reasons they claim to be doing it. The real reason is the same--to give themselves absolute power.

And the spectrum isn't linear but a circle. When you get right down to the end results, it's pretty hard to tell a fascist (like Hitler) from a communist (like Stalin). They may claim a different ideology as their motivation but both extremes trample the rights of the individual for the good of the state.


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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #94
156. After less than two years in power...
Hitler had revoked the citizenship of the Jews. After several years of facing calls for violent overthrow of an elected government, Chavez takes away a TV station. You don't really understand spades.

Bill
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nick303 Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
44. Ironic that your post now appears below the one it does (#12)
Of course, that info comes from the BBC, which is nowhere near as reputable as the sites you source, like counterpunch, zmag, or venezuelanalysis.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. Hugo good! Opposition bad!
dsa, certain folks around here are absolutely giddy about Hugo: he hates Bush, they hate Bush. He hates corporate ownership of petroleum, they hate it too. Therefore, Hugo can do no wrong.

Best of luck in your discussion. (For what it's worth, I'm with you all the way.)
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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. thanks!
I was beginning to think I was all alone on this topic, which is a scary thought considering what that man is like.
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MAGICBULLET Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #30
42. would you happen to know
where I can find a reliable source that indicates how poverty in VEN has either decreased or increased since Chavez has been in power?
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Stella_Artois Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
55. No, i'm with you too.
The BBC is FAR from perfect, but what it is not is a private TV station run by the right wing elite.

When they report things like this, you have to wonder what is going on over in Columbia, because it doesn't look like normal democratic processes that i am familiar with.
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dbackjon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
57. some here are blind to how EVIL Chavez is.
It is disgusting, really. Chavez is no more a friend to democracy than any other dictator. But some here are blind to reality, or actually paid off by Chavez to spread his lies and disinformation.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #57
128. What a piece of crap post.
Please provide any evidence to back up your hallucinatory claim that people on this board are "paid off by Chavez to spread lies and disinformation."

Otherwise, crawl back in your hole.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
70. you are not alone at all
Hugo can do no wrong. just remember that during the "debates". there is a Castro/Hugo alarm system that goes into effect within minutes after a post that reflects negatively on either of them.
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mediawatch Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #24
53. and you are the winner.......
certain folks love Hugo because he hates bush! That's it in a nut shell. I can't believe some of the things I am reading on this board.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #53
68. Conversely, certain folks hate Hugo because...
(the rest is left as an exercise for the reader)
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
110. I liked Chavez until now
Shutting down free speech is the beginning of true blue fascism IMO
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. Coup Co-Conspirators as Free-Speech Martyrs Distorting the Venezuelan media story
snip

...

RCTV and other commercial TV stations were key players in the April 2002 coup that briefly ousted Chvez's democratically elected government. During the short-lived insurrection, coup leaders took to commercial TV airwaves to thank the networks. "I must thank Venevisin and RCTV," one grateful leader remarked in an appearance captured in the Irish film The Revolution Will Not Be Televised. The film documents the networks participation in the short-lived coup, in which stations put themselves to service as bulletin boards for the couphosting coup leaders, silencing government voices and rallying the opposition to a march on the Presidential Palace that was part of the coup plotters strategy.

On April 11, 2002, the day of the coup, when military and civilian opposition leaders held press conferences calling for Chvez's ouster, RCTV hosted top coup plotter Carlos Ortega, who rallied demonstrators to the march on the presidential palace. On the same day, after the anti-democratic overthrow appeared to have succeeded, another coup leader, Vice-Admiral Victor Ramrez Prez, told a Venevisin reporter (4/11/02): "We had a deadly weapon: the media. And now that I have the opportunity, let me congratulate you."

That commercial TV outlets including RCTV participated in the coup is not at question; even mainstream outlets have acknowledged as much. As reporter Juan Forero, Jackson Diehl's colleague at the Washington Post, explained (1/18/07), "RCTV, like three other major private television stations, encouraged the protests," resulting in the coup, "and, once Chvez was ousted, cheered his removal." The conservative British newspaper the Financial Times reported (5/21/07), " officials argue with some justification that RCTV actively supported the 2002 coup attempt against Mr. Chvez."

As FAIR's magazine Extra! argued last November, "Were a similar event to happen in the U.S., and TV journalists and executives were caught conspiring with coup plotters, its doubtful they would stay out of jail, let alone be allowed to continue to run television stations, as they have in Venezuela."

...

snip

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3107
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Outstanding article! It also states the Vene. President was given the authority to do this 12 years
before Hugo Chavez was elected, in December, 1998, and took office February 2, 1999. This was already in place long before he took office.

It's so sad to hear these gentle visitors yammering away in profound ignorance of any part of the facts. It really gives the place a tacky image, doesn't it?

More from the FAIR article:
The RCTV case is not about censorship of political opinion. It is about the government, through a flawed process, declining to renew a broadcast license to a company that would not get a license in other democracies, including the United States. In fact, it is frankly amazing that this company has been allowed to broadcast for 5 years after the coup, and that the Chvez government waited until its license expired to end its use of the public airwaves.
(My emphasis.) Thank you.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
33. Thomas Paine.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
40. Yes, what would the U.S. government do to a media outlet or anyone else
that consistently advocated overthrow of the government by force?

That station should have been shut done immediately after the coup was thwarted.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #40
71. Sue them, like the Progressive
that outlet tipped the hand on the workings of the thermonuclear warhead. That information is still classified, if we sit around and improve on it it is "born secret"

However the government did not shut them down or pull their licence, they sued them in court.

Free speech is more important than the hurt feelings of a strongman. So he gets his revenge, guess that makes everything all good.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #71
78. But the Progressive didn't advocate violent overthrow of the govt.
That has always been considered the exception to the free speech principle, even before Bush.

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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #78
85. Drooling on the history books..
"it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Retribution plain and simple.

Many groups in the US advocate overthrow. It is not clear that was the case, only the 53 year old station did not display the position required by the petro fueled man in power.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. Now, that's what I call real singing and dancing in the streets
We would be doing the same here if the FCC had the balls to yank the broadcasting license to the radio network that carries Rush Limbaugh for not firing him for broadcasting hate speech and racist songs.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. If you're going to say "El" it wouldn't be a bad idea to say "Dictador."


Why would Bush shut down the New York Times, after all the unbelievable total spin, tons of lies, they've invested in promoting him all this time?

Did you not ever pay any attention in their behavior during the run-up to the Iraq War? My God.

Does the name "Judy Miller" have any meaning for you?

What is the "Stalinist circle of trust?" Are you trying to call DU'ers "communists," but are afraid of being called on red-baiting? What evidence do you have the posters here are "commies?" That's really not a good idea, is it?

Attacks on posters, attempts to label them may be indications you aren't sufficiently prepared to to discuss anything seriously, as you lack the necessary information. If you were prepared, you wouldn't feel a need to lash out at people who know their material.

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Sagwa Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Its just that I've seen this before
one of the last times was by a 'hero of the people' called Robert Mugabe. Turned out well, did it not? Chavez is taking the script home with him.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. What are you attempting to say? We're not psychic. n/t
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. Two posts ago, you hammered Sagwa for assumptions you made.
And now you're pretending to not have a clue about what Sagwa is saying? Yeah, right.

Well, let me help. Chavez is just another clown in a long line of third world clowns who just loves to tell the world how much he loves the people and, naturally, how much he hates President Bush. All the extreme leftists in this country get all excited because "he has the courage to stand up to the American fascist" and he arranges for cheap heating oil in certain parts of the country -- oil he just happens to have because he nationalized the petroleum industry. ("Nationalized" is simply a code word for "stole".) Hooray. In the mean time, he changes the laws that would prevent him from seeking another term of office, and now he's shut down an opposition media outlet. Well, at least he hasn't started eating his detractors a la Idi Amin. So he can't be all bad, right?
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cannabis_flower Donating Member (386 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Stole.. you mean like...
The oil companies originally stole from the Venezuelan people? Or like the European colonials stole land from the Indian? Or like Christopher Columbus that stole gold and people and made them slave on plantations on Hispaniola until they were so desperate that they killed themselves and their children? Or the European and American slave traders that stole people (or bought them from those who stole them) and brought them by boatloads to the Americas?

Read People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn ( http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/PeoplesHistory_Z... ) for an account of the amount of stealing that has gone on in the name of progress.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Oh, shit. Here we go. Now we're talking about Columbus and Indians.
Can you people ever stay on topic?
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cannabis_flower Donating Member (386 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Hey, you were the one that said..
Chavez stole land and oil. I am just pointing out that those things were originally stolen by outsiders. So you say they were bought? From who? Where did the big oil companies get the right to come in and take all that oil? Sure it might have been some so called "legal" deal. Are we talking the kind of deal that they made with the Indians for the island of Manhattan? Or a fair deal that benefited the people of Venezuela?
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #38
48. My bad. I used the word "stole", and you interpreted it to have univesal application.
God love the socialists. Life would be so dull withouth them.
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pork medley Donating Member (262 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #48
107. And God love the libertarians
who spit on His creation and bank on its poverty and squalor
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BrainGlutton Donating Member (202 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #32
49. Actually, Venezuela's oil industry has been nationalized since the 1970s.
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Andrushka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
91. "silencing of free speech"
A TV station on the public airwaves organizing coup attempts and calling for assassinations is "free speech"?

In which country would that be considered "free speech"?!

:eyes:
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #91
97. The US doesn't even allow our TV stations to flash a tit.
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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
157. Chavez has been freely elected...
several times. Facts are important. Straw man arguments ("If Gonzales shut down Moveon.org?") are not persuasive here. You got anything else?

Bill
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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
158. >Is this the 'Democratic Underground' or the Stalinist circle of trust?
You are not being held here against your will.

Bill
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:41 AM
Response to Original message
22. The dictator takes his cues from Castro.
Shutting down the opposition is not enough. Arresting the opposition is not enough. Becoming a police state is the goal. Chavez is achieving his aim, and soon the Venezuelan "Stasi" will arrest people for uttering antiu-government statements or publishing anti-government thoughts.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #22
45. The hallucinations must be kicking in.
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dbackjon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #45
58. What - of the Chavez apologists?
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porque no Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #58
148. No, yours.
The tell tale comes right out of the box with the calls of "dictator". Dictators do not win in legitimate, internationally sanctioned landslides, over and over and over.

Did you see Assad just got 97% of the vote? That's an example of a fake election. Chavez wins legitimately and repeatedly. His drastic actions are taken because of well financed, and illegal opposition who would kill him in a minute. Not to mention that there's probably quite a bit of funds flowing into that criminal opposition from the US, probably from both the government and giant multi-national oil companies awash in cash.

Buy a clue.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
26. CNN called them all protestors
and rioters angry with Chavez.

:eyes:


Thank you BBC for the unbiased report. here is the opposite.....

CARACAS, Venezuela (CNN) -- Venezuela's most-watched television station -- and outlet for the political opposition -- went off the air after the government refused to renew its broadcast license.

Radio Caracas Television (RCTV), which has been broadcasting for 53 years, was replaced by a state-run station -- TVes -- on Monday. The new station's logo began running immediately after RCTV went off the air.

Leading up to the deadline, police on Sunday used water cannons and what appeared to be tear gas to break up thousands of demonstrators protesting the government's decision to close the country's most-watched television station.

The protest began in front of National Telecommunications Commission headquarters after members of the National Guard seized broadcast equipment, including antennas, the result of a Supreme Court order on Friday.

During the clash, two or three bullets were shot into a nearby traffic light, police said. Soon afterward, the director of the Metropolitan Police, Juan Francisco Romero, pointed to the light, and said on television that police were "not going to accept the situation."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/05/28/venezuela....
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murdoch Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
41. This is more democratic
Watching news about this on the US corporate media they are talking about freedom of speech and so forth. Huh? These channels are completely controlled by a tiny elite, whose interests are completely against the vast majority of people in their own country - in Venezuela and the United States. It's a joke to hear the commissars of Rupert Murdoch, or NBC - the voice of the military contractor called GE and whatnot talk about freedom and whatnot. Freedom for a handful of idle class billionaires to completely control our airwaves. Even PBS nowadays has what are but they don't call commercials for ExxonMobil, Coca-Cola and whatnot.

The Venezuelan government was elected by the people democratically, and the government having control over the station is much more democratic than it resting in the hands of a few billionaire heirs. While there is a lot of similarity between the voice of the majority shut out of the airwaves here and there, one difference there is only about 30% of the population of Venezuela is white, and they are sort of a foreign, settler ruling class over the 70% of Indian (and to a lesser extent black) native population. So it is a little more polarized. Most of these Indians have little access to Venezuela's oil wealth until recently, and they have absolutely no voice on the media outside of the government channels.
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John Kerry VonErich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. Huh?
Edited on Mon May-28-07 11:02 AM by John Kerry VonErich
The Venezuelan government was elected by the people democratically, and the government having control over the station is much more democratic than it resting in the hands of a few billionaire heirs.

What would you think if the goverment controlled station starts airing commentary you don't agree with? IMO, what you said is kinda irresponsible.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #41
76. the "native" population is about 2%
"native" is not a synonym for non-white.



The politically and economically dominant landowning class is mainly of Spanish descent. About 65% of the population is mestizo, 20% white, 10% black, and 2% indigenous. Spanish is the official language. There is no established church, but nearly all Venezuelans are nominally Roman Catholic. There are 20 universities in the country.

http://www.answers.com/topic/venezuela
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #76
130. Hmm, all those "free speech" demonstrators looked pretty white.
It's interesting that no one seems to talk about the racial and class component of this.

I noticed the protestors were considerably lighter skinned than the cops....

Is this just pissed off rich people bitching again, like they have ever since Chavez was elected?
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Skink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
46.  Hugo is getting armed to the teeth.
There are violent revolutionary forces on each side in the entire region of Columbia, Equador and Venezuela.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
54. BS! Everyone loves CHAVEZ, the BBC is a tool of the CIA!!
With the decline in collection of the television licence fee, they had nowhere to go but the CIA to obtain funding.
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dbackjon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
61. Troops fire upon protesters in Venezuela
Edited on Mon May-28-07 03:44 PM by dbackjon
Source: Associated Press/Yahoo

CARACAS, Venezuela - National Guard troops fired tear gas and rubber bullets Monday into a crowd of protesters angry over a decision by President Hugo Chavez that forced a critical television station off the air.
University students blocked one lane of a major highway hours after Radio Caracas Television ceased broadcasting at midnight and was replaced with a new state-funded channel. Chavez had refused to renew RCTV's broadcast license, accusing it of "subversive" activities and of backing a 2002 coup against him.

Two students were injured by rubber bullets and a third was hit with a tear gas canister, said Ana Teresa Yepez, an administrator at Caracas' Metropolitan University. She said about 20 protesters were treated for inhaling tear gas.


<snip>

Crowds of students demonstrated across Caracas, saying they fear for the future of free speech.









Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070528/ap_en_tv/venezuela_...



The end of Democracy in Venezuela continues...
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Stella_Artois Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Just how angry were these protestors ?
If they were getting violent then tear gas wouldn't be such an excessive use of force.

If it was a peaceful protest then this action will just add credence to those who say that the place is becoming a dictatorship.
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Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. Violence is definitely a posibility
Government tv is showing that some were armed.
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BestCenter Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. Looks like it's shades of Tienanmen Square.
When you have troops attacking student protesters, it doesn't matter what political alignment the regime is- something's wrong.
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DerBeppo Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #61
147. Wonder if their police chief will fire 60 of them too? nt
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John Kerry VonErich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
65. I looks as though it is the beginings of an overthrow, IMO
What do you think?
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #65
131. Dream on, reactionary brother.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
69. Lots of bullshit flying, but a simple chioce...
the press is :

there to support the government in power, any that does not is enemy and destroyed. viva la revolucion and retribution

or

The press can express opposition to the government in power without fear or retribution. Not all press in nice, it can be confrontational and hostile.

Like the Progressive magazine, still in publication, that published "born secret" designs of the teller ulam design for a hydrogen bomb.
The government sued, it did not disband the publication.

I am sure there are some who would pimp for any person in power that dislikes bush and dresses in red. But just because he is a che wannabe and supports castro does not make what he is doing correct.

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Louie the XIV Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
72. Chavez Learns from the Best
Edited on Mon May-28-07 06:06 PM by Louie the XIV
Vlad, got any rubber bullets left from this weekend I can borrow for these pesky journalists?


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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #72
103. How about a couple grams of polonium?
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
75. Jeebuz Christ people it's only one channel going down.
How many of us here would cry if it was a Dem shutting down Fox? Not many. It's not like that's the only station on TV there.
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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. I would welcome that positive change
Either enact the fairness doctrine, or shut down all of the conservative blowholes polluting our airwaves.
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hardtravelin Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #77
82. Sieg Heil!!
You don't see the danger in this absolute thinking??
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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. I take it that you're a fan of conservatives?
Myself, I can't stand conservatives or their hate filled lies. What's with the Seig Heil comment? It's a little early to pull out the Nazi card isn't it?
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hardtravelin Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #84
87. I apologize,
that was a bit uncalled for. I do think, however, that all voices , no matter how offensive to us, have the right to be heard.

I am no fan of conservative propaganda, trust me. I think that we don't support democracy by advocating the silencing of dissenting voices, however.
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. It's the only network that can be accessed by everyone in Venezuela on free tv that still
openly provides forums to criticize Chavez' government.

In addition, two other major networks that supported the coup decided to end any criticism of the government and they get to remain on the air -- I find that interesting.

Also the Venezuelan government is now investigating Globovision.

I guess as long as it's one network at a time that's okay?

As to your fox analogy -- it doesn't hold water.

Fox is a cable channel. We are talking about networks that are accessible on regular TV without cable.

What he's doing is akin to pulling ABC, NBC or CBS and then making the network a state run operation.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. Honest criticism is one thing,
but subversion is another.

It was very clear from "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" that during the coup the station was
deliberately lying to its viewers about what was happening; that they supported the coup and had
been privy to the plans in advance; that they were openly gloating about the overthrow of their
democractically-elected President, and that they supported the new regime which not only was illegal,
but also immediately suspended the Constitution and dissolved the National Assembly.

That's not criticism; it's treason, and the proprietors were damn lucky they weren't put on trial.
Chavez was lenient, but they kept right on doing what they'd been doing before - stirring up trouble
for the regime.

That still leaves around 80% of the media in private hands.




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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #81
101. I got it!
So let's let the Cuban run station in and let them spread thier propaganda while they call for the overthrow of our gov't and the suspension of our constitution. Freedom of speech don't ya know? :sarcasm:
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #75
89. Not any more, now two going down..Absolute power
does what absolutely? By by globovision.. Not socialist enough for chavez. He has to protect the people from the evil scary world.
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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #89
121. He's protecting his people
From the contamination of conservative thought. How can there be a socialist revolution if the right is always trying to start another coup?
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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #121
161. In other words, censorship is fine
So long as it's "our" guy doing the censoring. :sarcasm:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #75
125. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #125
126. How so?
Edited on Wed May-30-07 06:29 AM by camero
500 channels and I'm gonna cry about one? My post proves nothing but yours has raised my suspicions.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
86. This is an excellent debate!
I think it exposes several dividing lines among the broad center and left-of-center camp. It's good to fully articulate these things, especially among the left elements who oppose US hegemony, because there issues will only become more sharp and real in the months and years ahead, especially if the Democrats win the White House next year.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #86
88. He is picking off globovision now
any democratic candidate will respect the right of free speech. This is NOT about the US. Every thing has taken on the US shadow. A false analysis.

This is a man consolidating power over a petro state worth billions. simple greed, wrapped up in socialism.

This is all about hugo, not one thing more.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #88
92. Why "greed?"
Why do you say Chavez is motivated by "greed?" Are you saying he is not really promoting socialism? Do you think there is something wrong with the "consolidation of power" by a political faction, using legal and pluralistic means? Isn't that what political movements do by winning elections all the time under democratic regimes? I guess I don't get your comment.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #92
105. Greed does not have to be about cash
greed and hunger for power and control are striking.
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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #105
122. but he has to have these powers
to enact the social justice programs for his people. If he didn't, nothing would get done in the face of corporate intervention.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #122
140. "but he has to have these powers"
Since time began, this has been the excuse for authoritarian excess.

He doesn't have to have these powers. They are simply preferable to him as opposed to the legislative process and compromise with the opposition.
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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #140
162. Well said
Good governments enact the will of the majority while protecting the rights of the minority.

Like any good dictator, Chavez circumvents the safeguards designed to protect the people so he can trample anyone who is even perceived as being in the way. Why bother with pesky trifles like legality or ethics?
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Andrushka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #88
96. Oh please
"Greed"?

Here's some reading for you:

Venezuela's Law of Social Responsibility for Radio and Television (LSR)
http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/medialaw.htm

Have a look at the penalties for the sort of sedition RCTV has been involved in.
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dsa Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #86
95. Glad to provide for your entertainment pleasure n/t
:)
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
99. Statement to the Guardian:
Television's role in the coup against Chvez


Saturday May 26, 2007
The Guardian

We believe that the decision of the Venezuelan government not to renew the broadcasting licence of RCTV when it expires on May 27 (Chvez silences critical TV station, May 23; Comment and Letters, May 25) is legitimate given that RCTV has used its access to the public airwaves to repeatedly call for the overthrow of the democratically elected government of President Hugo Chvez. RCTV gave vital practical support to the overthrow of Venezuela's elected government in April 2002 in which at least 13 people were killed. In the 47 hours that the coup plotters held power, they overturned much of Venezuela's democratic constitution - closing down the elected national assembly, the supreme court and other state institutions.
RCTV exhorted the public to take to the streets and overthrow the government and also colluded with the coup by deliberately misrepresenting what was taking place, and then conducting a news blackout. Its production manager, Andrs Izarra, who opposed the coup, immediately resigned so as not to become an accomplice.

This is not a case of censorship. In Venezuela more than 90% of the media is privately owned and virulently opposed to the Chvez government. RCTV, far from being silenced, is being allowed to continue broadcasting by satellite and cable. In Venezuela, as in Britain, TV stations must adhere to laws and regulations governing what they can broadcast. Imagine the consequences if the BBC or ITV were found to be part of a coup against the government. Venezuela deserves the same consideration.

Colin Burgon MP
Dr Julia Buxton
Jon Cruddas MP
Tony Benn
Billy Hayes General secretary, CWU
John Pilger
Professor Jonathan Rosenhead LSE
Hugh O'Shaughnessy
Rod Stoneman Executive producer, The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
And 16 others

http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,,2088662,00.h...
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
100. Documents reveal US effort to influence Venezuelan journalists
Documents reveal US effort to influence Venezuelan journalists
Submitted by jonathan on 27 May, 2007 - 10:47am. Communications Rights | Newswire | Propaganda and War
Full Story:
by Chris Carlson, Venezuelanalysis.com

Several major Venezuelan journalists have received all-expenses paid trips to the U.S. for courses in an apparent effort of the U.S. State Department to influence the media in Venezuela, according to recently released documents. The Venezuelan-American attorney Eva Golinger, who released the information yesterday in a press conference in Caracas, also revealed evidence of a destabilization plan against the Chavez government to take place this weekend.

Golinger is the author of The Chavez Code, which documents U.S. funding of opposition groups and U.S. involvement in the 2002 coup attempt.

Under a program named International Business Leadership Program, many Venezuelan journalists, mostly from the opposition media, but also some from the Venezuelan government, have received "scholarships" from the U.S. government to attend training courses during the years 2001-2005.

Some of the most recognized opposition journalists of the country have participated according to the documents, including Miguel Angel Rodriguez of RCTV, who received more than six thousand dollars for his participation in 2003, and Maria Fernanda Flores of Globovision among others, according to the documents obtained by Eva Golinger through the U.S. Freedom of Information Act.

With the supposed intention of teaching journalists about the media and journalism in the United States, the program also has the purpose of influencing how Venezuelan journalists cover events related to the U.S. foreign policy. According to the documents released, the programs denominated "Journalism IV" seek to "influence the approach and ultimately the coverage given to issues of importance to U.S. foreign policy and to strengthen the Venezuelan democratic process."

More:
http://reclaimthemedia.org/communications_rights/docume...
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
104. So, how are the Chavez lovers going to explain this?
Imagine if someone wanted to take down FSTV?
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. FSTV is not broadcasting on public airwaves.
It's on satellite, just like RCTV can still be.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. okay, then how about PBS?
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #108
114. If PBS took an overt political stance, their funding would get yanked.
If they actively participated in a coup attempt, they would be jailed.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #114
116. But its okay for Chavez's political TV channels to remain on?
Its either: all or nothing, in my book.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. It would be surprising if the one state run channel violated broadcasting laws.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #117
137. Actually it would be surprising if one state channel was prosecuted for violating laws
Especially if one party was already in control of the legislative, judicial and executive branches.

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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #137
143. ...and since the State channel doesn't violate the laws to begin with.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #143
150. You are hilarious!
I do not expect the state (or shoudl I say party) run TV station to break the laws that govern criticism of government officials.

I do expect to see them attack the opposition and promote Chavez.

What a great use of a public resource!
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. Much better to have a station broadcast anti-democratic propaganda
and incite violence, I guess.

But your right, it is quite silly to expect a state run television station to openly advocate the overthrow of the government. In fact it was the only channel in Venezuela that wasn't running anti-Chavez commentary during the 2002 coup attempt... until the station was sabotaged and taken off the air by the people involved with the coup.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #104
109. Simple. Chavez did it. Its ok.
He could kick a dog on national TV and his supporters here would be reporting how the dog was out to overthrow him.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #109
112. I think his announcement is revealing...
Edited on Tue May-29-07 08:39 PM by robcon
Chavez said his refusal to renew the license of Radio Caracas Television, which went off the air at midnight Sunday, is "a sovereign, legitimate decision in which there is no argument."
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8PE78LG0&show_...

Well if there's no possibility of argument that PROVES that Chavez is right. Who could argue with the dictator who is BY DEFINITION right, so no argument can be made, no disagreement could be allowed.

Rule by decree. Check.
Announce that there is no argument with what he says. Check.
Arrest anyone who disagrees. Check.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #112
132. Tell us about all the people Chavez has arrested for disagreeing with him.
Please. Or else quit spouting bullshit.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #132
135. Here ya go
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #135
142. The first three links deal with Sumate
Who were charged with illegally taking money from the US. According to your links, they are getting a new trial. Chavez sure sucks at being a dictator.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #142
149. What you need your dictators dressed in military fatigues to recognize them?
Ooopps bad example.

So the 1st & 3rd links deal with Sumate.

The 2nd link has to has to do with a civil rights attorney.

The 1st deals with their even being tried in the 1st place. The 2nd welcomes the retials afetr the dubious 1st trials and jopes that due process with be observed.

Normally people consider shoddy show trials against political opponents to be authoritarianism run amock. You apprently think it doesn't go far enough.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #149
154. People who go through show trials generally don't get new ones.
Under dictatorships.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #109
113. hahaha, how true, fascist dogs!
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #109
115. RCTV led protesters into a sniper trap on national TV
Yet their supporters act as if this is a simple case of censorship, as if corporate entities have a right to broadcast inciteful and deadly propaganda and misinformation on the public airwaves.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #115
129. "right to broadcast inciteful and deadly propaganda and misinformation on the public airwaves"
You're right. That's Chavez's job!
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #129
133. When has Chavez called for violent mobs to attack the opposition?
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. He just demonizes the opposition from his bully pulpit.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0530/bre...

"Enemies of the homeland, particularly those behind the scenes, I will give you a name: Globovision. Greetings gentlemen of Globovision, you should watch where you are going," Mr Chavez said in a broadcast all channels had to show.

"I recommend you take a tranquilizer and get into gear, because if not, I am going to do what is necessary."

Hmmm right after he shuts down one station he threatens another.

People went apeshit in this coutnry when Ari Fleischer said people should watch what they say shortly after 9/11. Here we have a head of state openly threatening the press.

But no, he's not authoritarian in anyway. :eyes:

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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #134
136. I don't see any incitements to violence there.
Nice job moving the goalposts.

People went apeshit in this country when Janet Jackson showed her titty. What RCTV has done is far worse.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #136
138. But that was Globovision. I know its hard to keep the stations he has threatened straight.
But I realize I am talking to a brick wall.



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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #138
139. Globovision can protect itself by not advocating assassination.
and I still don't see any calls from Chavez to violently deal with his opposition.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. You have incredibly low standards
When a head of state can call a media org an enemy of the state and warn them that he will act against them is ok as long as he openly didn't call for violence.

And Globovision's assaination threat?

Communications Minister Willian Lara presented a case to the state prosector's office saying experts hired by the ministry had found that opposition broadcaster Globovision was inciting assassination attempts on Mr. Chavez.

As evidence, he cited Globovision showing footage of an assassination attempt against Pope John Paul II in 1981 accompanied by the song "This Does Not Stop Here," sung by Ruben Blades, now Panama's minister of tourism.

"The conclusion of the specialists ... is that (in this segment) they are inciting the assassination of the president of Venezuela," Mr. Lara told reporters at the prosecutor's office.

You're kidding right?
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #141
144. You've proven that Chavez likes to call the opposition names
Just like they call him names regularly.

That's a lot different than inciting violence against the opposition.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #144
151. Have you taken too many blows to the head with the little red book?
There is a huge difference between the opposition or virtually anyone criticizing the government no matter how crudely vs. the government using its unrestrained power to do the same.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #151
153. Unrestrained?
Chavez gets one show on state run television to spout whatever he wants, and he can be a loudmouth jerk sometimes. My god, the tyranny.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #153
160. But he would NEVER incite violence
"Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez vigorously defended on Tuesday his decision to close a television station that openly opposed his government, and ridiculed demonstrators who protested the move.
Lashing out at the capitalist values broadcast by Radio Caracas Television (RCTV), which was shut down on Sunday, Chavez claimed that demonstrations of support for the network aimed to destabilise the country.

Sound the alarm in the hills, neighbourhoods and towns to defend our revolution from this new fascist attack, Chavez said in a televised broadcast. "

But Chavez stood firm and blasted the student protests. They are young, but they look like old people defending carrion, the stateless oligarchy, he said.

He portrayed the closure of RCTV as a public service, claiming the networks broadcasts amounted to a permanent attack on public morals with soap operas that were like venomous rattlesnakes and childrens cartoons that were poisoned with hatred, violence and even sex.

What a complete douchebag.





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Socal31 Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
124. Our Party...
Will never win as long as we keep spouting support for obvious dictators like this.


Cant we love Universal Healthcare, Profit Sharing from oil companies, and honesty in our government, without having to support Authoritarians like this? Jesus people......
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #124
127. The chaotic failure of the right wing
Amazing - - you believe the democratically elected Chavez is a dictator when his actions were to support the millions of Venezuelans that lived debased by the rich class, forced up into the unstable mountains to live in abject squalor with their lives at risk.

Mudslides killed thousands of the poor because of the instability of the mountain sides, where the rich would never venture and the poor were forced to live. One merely needed to travel from the capital to the seaside to see the filth dripping down the hillsides of Venezuela.

If Chavez is a dictator today, it is the unintended consequences and the chaotic failure of right wing self-indulgently folks that hoped for a violent overthrow of Chavezs government, thwarting democracy.

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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
155. armed Venezuelan protesters attempt to overthrow government
Edited on Wed May-30-07 02:21 PM by Bacchus39
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #155
159. Amazing.
They weren't slaughtered in the streets like in the Caracazo riots.

Of course, that was before Chavez, so it's okay.
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