House candidate (Jennings D-13 FL) can't inspect secret voting software

[Freddie Stubbs]

BY GARY FINEOUT
[e-mail]

TALLAHASSEE - A Leon County judge today shot down a request by Democratic congressional candidate Christine Jennings to access the secret software that runs electronic voting machines that were used in Sarasota County.

The decision deals a serious blow to Jennings' effort to contest the House District 13 election she barely lost last month to Republican Vern Buchanan.

House Democrats also said today that they will not take any action to block Buchanan from assuming the Southwest Florida seat when Congress reconvenes next week.

more: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/16345903.htm

[blm]

1. Geez - what happened to Florida's famous "SUNSHINE" rule when it comes to election process?

It was all PRETEND. There never was a real sunshine law in existence - not one that couldn't be circumvented by Jeb Bush and his team.

[EFerrari]

16. All shine, no sun.

[Trajan]

34. WTF ?

IF the public cannot inspect the voting machines, them ALL pretense of 'democracy' is utterly lost ...

How DARE they deny this ... Protection of proprietary software MUST take a back seat to public confidence ... I mean WTF: It COUNTS !

[In Truth We Trust]

66. I say "REVOLUTION"! HCPB's NOW!

[madfloridian]

2. All of it was pretend.

I think there was a pretense of disputing the outcome of the election as long it didn't get too painful.

Now what will she do with the money folks donated? Will it be used for other things now?

[Freddie Stubbs]

3. I can be returned to donors, given to charity or other candidates, or

spent in 2008 if she runs again.

[madfloridian]

4. Why are you so happy about this? Why is it getting recommended?

The more I read, the more I realize there was no intention to really fight.

You seem excited by it. I don't understand.

[babylonsister]

6. People recommend for many reasons. Agreement, outrage, and

so others can see and be informed. Not always for positive reasons.

[madfloridian]

8. Well, Freddie is exuberant that she can run again in 08.

Rahm and Karen Thurman pushed her ahead of Jan, who beat her in a previous primary. They dried up funding to Jan, and put Christine in the race.

And now she wants Buchanan seated. Where have I seen all this niceness before.

I feel sick.

[Freddie Stubbs]

11. Are you telling me that Jan Schneider's support was so weak that

all it took were some phone calls from a guy from Chicago and a former Congresswoman to 'dry up' her support? Must not have been very strong to begin with.

[madfloridian]

13. Don't get me started.

That "guy from Chicago" and his buddy James C. even tried a coup on the DNC chairman. Pretty powerful fellows.

They didn't win that yet, but they might. Who knows.

Rahm and Karen did the same to Lutrin (they recruited Mahoney, a Republican who switched after they recruited him.)

Florida was very busy picking the primary winners in several areas and passing the word at area meetings to discourage primaries, period.

They lost one of the primaries, and instead of backing the winner they left him hanging without funding. I think you know which race that was.

[KittyWampus]

17. Take your bogus "Rahm tried to oust Dean from DNC along with Carville"BULLSHIT

and peddle it somewheres else.

You have absolutely zero proof of your assertion and yet you dare to post it as if it were fact.

[madfloridian]

19. Maybe you should read the posts I did where Carville said so??

They are in my journal.

Carville said it, and he implied the Clintons were not against it....so read up.

Let me help you...I only used Carville's words. I made up nothing.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

[creeksneakers2]

61. That isn't evidence of anything

The Clintons didn't want to get involved. So what? Carville talks trash for a living. That's all he was doing when he criticized Dean.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ooglymoogly]

70. and a high zig heil to you

do you have any other rules we must follow

[Freddie Stubbs]

20. Looks like recruiting Mahoney was a good idea

If I recall correctly, that seat is now in the Democratic column. As is the seat that used to belong to Clay Shaw. It would appear that Democrats gained two seat in Congress in FL this year. Not too shabby, considering that Republicans drew the district lines.

[madfloridian]

21. Why not run the Dem who was already running...a good guy? Lutrin

Why not? Why did they have to recruit a millionaire Republican instead of supporting the Democrat in the race? Well, there were two, but he was the better organized.

Why recruit a Republican?

[Freddie Stubbs]

23. Perhaps they were interested in more than a sacrificial lamb candidate

How much of fight did Mr. Lutrin give to Mahoney in the primary?

[madfloridian]

25. I found two articles for you. They dried up funds to Lutrin.

It is my understanding he dropped out of the primary. He could not raise money after Mahoney was chosen. Now I fully realize you believe that candidates can not have their funds dried up, but they can.

http://www.tcpalm.com/tcp/election/article/0,2820,TCP_2...

This was a post about Emmie Ross, who left the race also.

"In 2005, she entered the race for the Democratic nomination to the seat then held by U.S. Rep. Mark Foley in competition with David Lutrin, a school teacher. Lutrin later left the campaign saying he could not raise enough money.

When Tim Mahoney entered the primary and received the backing of the Democratic Party in St. Lucie County, Ross dropped out to run as an independent.

"The democrats had already hand picked a Republican, Tim Mahoney, he was a Republican," Ross said. "I became candidate in 2005, and after I became candidate, he entered the race.

"All other Democrats were forced out. I felt abused by their action, so I decided to become an independent. It was very disheartening to realize that (the) Democratic Party chose a Republican to represent the Democrats."

And you might find out more by reading the DWT blog about Lutrin and Mahoney.

http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2006/03/there-is-on...

"Candidate’s Forum between David Lutrin and Tim Mahoney. The agreed upon format was that each candidate would address the audience for an unspecified amount of time and then both candidates would take any and all questions together. It didn’t happen that way. Several hours before the forum, a member of Mahoney’s campaign called the host of the forum and said that Mahoney had to absolutely be out of the forum by 7:45 pm, due to another commitment and wanted to change the format. The new format was for Baloney Mahoney to speak first, then take a few questions and disappear, leaving the remainder of the forum for Lutrin.

At 8:05 pm (20 minutes after Full-of-Baloney Mahoney had to absolutely be out of the Forum) a member of the audience told Mahoney “you haven’t told us where you stand on any of the issues (after speaking for 50 minutes) , where do you stand on abortion, gun control, and capital punishment?"

Mahoney’s response was that he stood where the district stood on the issues. Specifically, on abortion he said “in this room, I am pro-choice, here."

Being pro-choice in one room is not good enough, because hearsay is that he already told the rural community in the district that he is anti-choice. Sadie was getting wrestless and I was hoping she wouldn't say anything embarrassing. She's old but she's very passionate and outspoken and holds public officials to a high standard. She baked a pie to throw at Katherine Harris once but we ate it.

Anyway, obviously full of baloney, Mahoney finally did leave at 8:10 and Lutrin took control of the room. With confidence and conviction he was crystal clear on the issues."

I don't know positively, but I think Lutrin had to drop out. Perhaps you could find the primary results for me.

[Freddie Stubbs]

51. There never was any money to dry up

Lutrin only raised about $5000 and Ross didn't even raise enough money to require that a report be filed (or is in violation of the law, take your pick):

http://www.politicalmoneyline.com/cgi-win/x_state_distr...

It doesn't appear that either of these people had any fundraising to dry up before Mahoney got into the race

[madfloridian]

52. They needed money, but Mahoney was chosen and given support.

Why was a Republican chosen, why wasn't the most viable candidate for the Democrats given a chance and supported by the DCCC instead of their support being given to Mahoney?

[Freddie Stubbs]

53. The DCCC did support the most viable candidate

Candidates who can't raise money usually aren't viable. That is one of the critera used to determine if a candidate is viable or not.

[madfloridian]

54. The DCCC recruited an effing REPUBLICAN!!

If we have to go out and find Republicans to run as Democrats, then something is wrong with this party.

I am sad so many of you think it is ok that Rahm and Karen controlled Florida so much.

The old smoke-filled rooms never left our state. I doubt they ever will.

You take joy in any grassroots pursuit being put down.

[Freddie Stubbs]

57. I take joy in Democrats being elected

You may see the 2006 elections as a tragedy, but I see them as a blessing.

[madfloridian]

58. Way to spin. Tim was a Republican until August 05.

Now, he may be a very fine guy. But don't pull that I love Demcrats being elected stuff with me. They ran the Dems out and put Tim in.

[Freddie Stubbs]

60. As long as he votes for Pelosi for Speaker and votes with the Democrats more

than with the Republicans, that sound like a Democrat to me.

[Freddie Stubbs]

9. Where do you get the idea that I am happy?

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Freddie Stubbs]

55. How can you tell when I am excited?

A big story breaks here in Florida. I post the story, which is obviously of great interest to DUers. How does that equal excitement?

[superconnected]

5. I think it's important to keep repeating,

There was voting maching fraud in '04. The only reason it wasn't prevalant in the '06 election was because it spawned so much attention and was obvious in '04. They are lying low to not garner attention. They are doing it so they can steal the next presidential election, and not get caught cheating on midterms. There is no way those republican companies that have already committed voting fraud, are going to skip doing it, on a presidential election.

Thieves are repeat offenders.

[madfloridian]

7. Jennings quits fight, and it gets recommended? What am I missing?

It makes me kind of sad. No one ever thought the first judge would give her access to the machines...no one.

Why is this such a happy occasion, and what am I missing here?

She is asking to have Buchanan seated, like she is giving up the fight.

Please clarify the excitement.

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. Who said it was a happy occasion?

Where is there excitement?

[Morgana LaFey]

12. Recommended is to for news value not just "I like this"

Recommendations make the thread hit the Greatest Page -- so others will see it. I hardly ever go directly to any of the forums, preferring to sort thru the Greatest Page to find impt news and other threads.

[last1standing]

14. You're letting your emotion get the better of you here, Mad.

No one has shown the slightest bit of enjoyment over this news and they're recommending it so that others will see it on the Greatest Page and have a chance to comment as this is important news. Maybe taking a few moments to gather your thoughts and rereading the posts here will give you the ability to see things in a better light.

[madfloridian]

18. Well, heaven forbid anyone have emotions here.

I gathered my thoughts on this race long ago. I had begun to trust that it would work out though.

Yes, it is always bad to have emotions. We just got screwed again, and I get told to watch my emotions.

Jan was a friend. But though she beat Jennings before, did well against Harris....Rahm said she was not good enough. They took her down by drying up money sources...they did it all over Florida. Florida was the biggest playground just about for the DCCC picking candidates.

But when Penberthy lost in the primary, after they had him to DC for national security training and all that stuff....then they dropped the winner, Russell, like a hot potato. No funding, no help.

So pardon my emotions. I called the state offices one day to discuss things. Karen was courteous, but they are going to pursue the old way of doing things here. It appears activists don't know how to handle things well.

See how emotional I am? That shows we need to let the big guys be in control.

Yes, I am angry. We knew she would not get access to those machines. Jeb has had judges in place here for years. He's had a long time.

And I get especially upset when someone is weighing in on an 08 run over finding out what really happened. No stigma, see! I only contested a little bit. Sorry for the sarcasm, but sometimes it is time to get angry.

[last1standing]

24. You're responding to things never said.

And then going off on a tirade against people who agree with you. I don't know why you continue to do this over and over again, but it only makes the causes you stand for look worse. I'm sorry that you can't seem to understand that but its true.

[madfloridian]

26. Yeh, I know, I am pretty bad.

That is all I have been told here for days... I gather you think it is all ok.

I am angry that my state is so embarrassing.

I am sorry you think I am so terrible, but I quite frankly don't give a damn anymore.

[last1standing]

28. Ok. I tried to help but I should have known better.

It just irritates me a bit to see the things I believe in taken less seriously because you have some need to go off on tangential rages at people who would otherwise agree with you.

I'm not trying to be mean or attack you in any way, I just don't like the way you make the things we believe in look silly. It really is a shame as I know your heart's in the right place.

[madfloridian]

30. What is it you believe in that I am attacking?

And no, my heart is not always in the right place. I am angry over my country's demise. I am angry that my state is in such total control of Republicans and of a few Democrats who act like them.

Now, I don't know which belief of yours I damaged, so let's talk about it.

People have tried this stuff on me here for years, and I am still here.

Let's talk. I am angry that Jennings appears to be conceding. She was picked over someone who had beat her before.

I am angry that a good candidate who won the primary, Russell, was dropped by the DCCC because he beat their guy.

Now which of those things do you disagree with? Let's talk.

[last1standing]

31. You don't seem to get it, WE ARE ALL ANGRY ABOUT IT!

We all agree with what you're talking about which is why its so disconcerting when you attack someone who obviously does not enjoy this happening. You should be angry, as we all are, but you should also try to direct that anger at the people responsible, not just anyone who happens to be near you at the time. And that is how you damage our beliefs.

[madfloridian]

33. No, I did not get it that all of you were angry.

It came across that you were very angry at me because I thought we were screwed again.

And you need to stop referring to other people's emotions when they are righteously angry.

It is time for this country to get very mad. Getting personal does not help any of us.

[last1standing]

35. You'll be pleased that I'm giving up.

You can just continue to act this way and destroy the very things you claim to support. I'll just sit back and watch as people laugh at you and your lunatic behavior. Hell, I'll laugh as well. Then you can sit back and whine about how mean everyone is to you, relishing your role as the perpetual victim.

Happy now?

[madfloridian]

41. Talking points. There you go.

Talking points from 03, at least. Because I got angry that Jennings conceded. Just like before when someone raised so much to contest and then conceded.

Yes, I am angry. But I see what you are doing. It has tried here for years.

[last1standing]

45. Yep, I'm a troll out to take you down.

I wonder what you'd do if everyone on earth wasn't out to get you? Gardening, perhaps?

[madfloridian]

46. You are getting way out of line.

But that is right, it's a pretty open forum.

[last1standing]

48. Great! I'm getting told I'm out of line by Madfloridian.

That's more irony than I think I can handle tonight.

[aquart]

71. WHAT????????

Heaven forfend a Democrat show just and righteous rage. Heaven forfend one of us shows our terrible anger and sense of betrayal. Why, someone might.....WHAT?

Take us less seriously because of our rage???

Here's a lesson for you: NOBODY REASONS WITH THE REASONABLE, BECAUSE THEY CAN BE TALKED OUT OF ANYTHING.

Until we show our massive reach-into-every-heart-and-household rage, we will achieve nothing because the other side will know it has no need to give us a single inch.

We don't have institutions like Social Security because of the kind benevolence of our nation's leaders. We got those things because they were scared to death of being murdered in their beds, as they had so richly earned.

Once the extreme position has been taken, negotiators arrive to bring the sides together, but first the extreme edge of the argument HAS to mapped. For too long, the extreme edge has been grabbed by the Republicans and WE have been reasonable. And what did WE get for it? Death, ruin, more death.

If you want to be the reasonable negotiator, fine. It's a noble position. But nobody will seek to negotiate with you until hundreds, until thousands, of madfloridians have scared the shit out of them.

[Imagevision]

78. K&R!!! This is notan honest election, we must replace Diebold machines

[madfloridian]

27. Those things are just known here in our area.

Here in Florida. Yes, I am responding to them because they are the saddest thing that has happened here. I am sorry you don't see it, but I don't worry anymore what people think.. It just does not matter.

You say I am responding to thing that were not brought up, and that is not the issue.

What you should do is put me on ignore and then you don't have read the truths I post.

[last1standing]

29. Do you talk to offline people like this?

Honestly, do you go into rants in the supermarket when someone tries to talk to you, or do you only feel this is acceptable when you're semi-anonymous?

I'm really trying to be nice here, but you just keep attacking anyone who dares to voice an opinion, sometimes.

[madfloridian]

32. How? I am not attacking...I am standing my ground.

Because I am right. Jennings is backing out of a promise to avoid a stigma of having complained too much about an election. She wants to run again in 08.

You really are not being that nice, frankly. You are being rather insulting by calling into play my emotions.

We just got screwed again. Why are not more in this thread upset?

Bottom line. We just got screwed by the candidate Rahm picked after kicking out the one who beat her before.

Excuse me for my anger.

[tbyg52]

69. I am extremely upset

This election should simply be done over (minus the machines that caused the problems), and Jennings should not have to be the only one doing the complaining. Certainly all Democrats, and moreover anyone who cares about democracy, should be complaining.

[Contrite]

76. Don't worry, I'm totally with you here

As you said, the dirty tricks in Florida continue. It's all about them and their political future, not about us and our votes and representation.

You are right. It's sickening.

And I am very angry, too.

I guess this means Clint Curtis hasn't a chance pursuing his challenge, either.

[Divine Discontent]

15. excitement?

recommending a post is for all of us who may not have heard, not to say, "this is happy news, look".

it's a very upsetting decision, and yes, this is troubling for 08, they better not be asleep thinking it won't repeat 04 now... we know they stole kerry's win.

www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable

[Freddie Stubbs]

22. Adventure, heh, excitement, heh, a Jedi craves not these things. ...

[BradBlog]

36. JUDGE DENIES PLAINTIFF MOTION TO REVIEW PAPERLESS VOTING MACHINE SOURCE CODE IN FL-13

BREAKING: JUDGE DENIES PLAINTIFF MOTION TO REVIEW PAPERLESS VOTING MACHINE SOURCE CODE IN CONTESTED FL-13 U.S. HOUSE ELECTION
Court finds Plaintiff's Request for 'Access to Trade Secrets' of ES&S Would 'Result in Destroying, Gutting' Voting Machine Company's 'Protections'
Judge Rules Jennings, Voters Motion Based on 'Nothing More Than Conjecture'

In a ruling issued this afternoon, the presiding Florida Circuit Court Judge William L. Gary denied the plaintiffs requests to allow review of the source code for the paperless touch-screen machines used in the contested U.S. House race in Florida's 13th district between Democrat Christine Jennings and Republican Vern Buchanan.

Jennings, and a number of Florida voters and Election Integrity organizations had filed suit to allow them to review the software made by voting machine company ES&S after some 18,000 votes seem to have disappeared in the race to fill the U.S. House seat vacated by former FL Secretary of State Katherine Harris. The state has previously certified Buchanan as the winner by a 369 vote margin.

Gary's terse ruling , issued this afternoon states that ES&S has a right to keep their software hidden from review by both the Jennings camp and voters, supporting the company's "right" to keep protect their "trade secrets."

MORE, COMPLETE RULING AVAILABLE AT:
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=3959

[annabanana]

37. damn. . . .

What gives them the right to count OUR votes in secret?

[Ezlivin]

38. Who said that they are "our" votes?

And they don't need to count them: They already know the tally.

Fascism is now as American as apple pie and torture. Sigh.

[Vinca]

39. This is not right. It's just not right.

If voters cannot see the code, the machines should not be used. I don't understand this judge's ruling.

[BradBlog]

40. NOTE: More Updates to this story now at the original link (n/t)

[madfloridian]

42. Well, it appears to be too late to worry much about it.

Seems like she is not going to fight much anymore.

[madfloridian]

43. I see your site said you had not seen a statement about seating Buchanan...

Here is one from Bay News 9 today. She will not contest Buchanan's being seated.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

It is especially sad in the light of your statement below.

"Miami Herald's brief coverage of the story claims, "House Democrats also said today that they will not take any action to block Buchanan from assuming the Southwest Florida seat when Congress reconvenes next week."

Though we've yet to read any such statement. If true, it would be unfortunate, given the fact that even ES&S' only expert put on the stand during the hearings in Florida --- notably, he was a political scientist, not a computer expert --- concurred that had it not been for problems with the voting machines, Jennings would have won the race. A study of the undervote ballots in the race, had previously found the same thing. According to the study, had votes been recorded on those ballots, Jennings would have won the election by a near 3,000 vote margin."

[BradBlog]

49. Be sure to see the additional follow up...

...There is a "...STILL MORE..." section with additional details on that matter now at the original article:
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=3959

[madfloridian]

56. I saw it. If I suspect correctly...they are now playing to the activists.

Making it sound like they are going to do something, without actually having the courage to put up the fight that is needed.

But just call me angry....everyone else does.

[madfloridian]

47. I am very angry about this, I am angry Jennings is sort of conceding.

I am angry that there is so little anger in this thread. The main anger was at me for being angry.

We got screwed again.

[depakid]

50. House Democrats also said today that they will not take any action

My prediction for 2007 is that the people who think that the Democratic "leadership" has grown a spine will be deeply disappointed.

[lovuian]

62. Florida is truly a corrupt and third world country

its sad but true

[IDemo]

63. NYT: House Democrats to Object to Florida Election Outcome

By KATE ZERNIKE
Published: December 30, 2006

WASHINGTON, Dec. 29 — Democrats said Friday that they would open the new Congress by formally objecting to the election result in Florida’s 13th District, in the hope that the Democrat who is contesting the narrow outcome there will ultimately take the place of the Republican whom the state has certified as the winner.

The CaucusKate Phillips and The Times's politics staff report on the latest political news from around the nation.

The move will not prevent the Republican, Vern Buchanan, from taking office with the rest of the 110th Congress next Thursday. But Democrats say that because the House is the final certifier of House election results, they want to make certain that Mr. Buchanan’s swearing-in does not prejudice a legal challenge mounted by his opponent, Christine Jennings.

The Democrats say that if they were to make no such objection, formally called a parliamentary inquiry, they would essentially be signaling the courts that the House agreed with the state-certified result. By contrast, their move will put the House on record as supporting Ms. Jennings’s challenge.

That move requires no House vote, only the approval of the chair, presumably Representative Nancy Pelosi of California, who is to become speaker next week.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/30/us/politics/30elect.h...

[Lasher]

65. Jennings' challenge is still very much alive.

This changes everything. Thanks, IDemo.

[curiousdemo]

64. Only in Flordia....

where freedom doesn't ring. This is due in part of another man name Bush.

[NotGivingUp]

67. this is total bullshit! we're allowing them to steal our votes!

[tbyg52]

68. Those are *our* damn machines!

They can either throw them open or we throw them out! (I prefer the latter.)

The Democrats need to be all over this. It should be the #1 item on their agenda.

[Botany]

72. evidence???? The machines are the evidence and we can't look @ 'em?

<Leon Circuit Judge William Gary told Jennings no, saying that the experts utilized by her lawyers had
engaged in ''speculation'' and ''conjecture'' and were not ``supported by credible evidence.''>

The machines, source codes, and hardware were paid for by the public and the public has a right to see em.

[BreweryYardRat]

73. Jennings is grossly incompetent (my dad's acquainted with her)...

...but that shouldn't have any bearing on a judge's ruling. This was not a good decision, and needs to be appealed/overturned.

And Vern Buchanan is apparently more corrupt than 90% of Republicans.

Both of them should piss off.

[Acadia Blue]

74. Suprise? Florida, the Corrupt Republican stronghold?

[Imagevision]

75. Software makers design voting machines that cannot be verified, this is

a trick, a ploy to sway elections illegally, elections must be verified, anyone not agreeing has an agenda and is obviously crooked and corrupt!

It doesn't matter how you win, only if you win?? this is the way it's used to be, this is what most importantly needs to be addressed asap!

[Imagevision]

77. The American people cannot use voting machines that don't permit verification!!

[Nimrod2005]

79. Here comes the appeal....?