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Eugene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 11:40 PM
Original message
BBC: Chavez to shut down opposition TV
Last Updated: Friday, 29 December 2006, 03:42 GMT

Chavez to shut down opposition TV

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has said he will not renew the licence
for the country's second largest TV channel which he said expired in March
2007.

In an address to troops, Mr Chavez said he would not tolerate media outlets
working toward a coup against him.

Radio Caracas Television, which is aligned with the opposition, supported a
strike against Mr Chavez in 2003.

But the TV's head said there must be some mistake as its licence was not up
for renewal in the near future.

-snip-

Full article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6215815.stm
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laureloak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bad move. True colors are beginning to show. n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. The Venezuelan version of Faux News is a rightwing propaganda arm
not a news organization. We should do the same thing to Rupert Murdoch!
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laureloak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. Don't shut it down, require equal time for opposing views. n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. No more being nice to the rightwing
This is a cabal that would not have hesitated to murder thousands to take power back, as Pinochet did in Chile. Get it into your head that the American version of the Venezuelan rightwing has controlled the media in our country, and has been cheerleaders for war and tyranny. The elites have no rights other than to surrender their power to the working class.

They are the ones that declared war on us.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Is this Democratic Underground
or Marxist Underground?

"The elites have no rights other than to surrender their power to the working class."

I disagree; the elites have the same rights, no more and no less, than the working class.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. They don't have a right to commit treason.
Sorry, you lose.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Excuse me?
I was referring to the general statement of philosophy by IndianaGreen, which is why I specifically quoted that bit.

Furthermore, as we are ostensibly on the same side and are not engaged in a competition neither of us wins or loses when we make our opinions known.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
53. Gladly. (n/t)
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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
106. You SOUND just like you're from the right wing.
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #106
110. Excuse me???
There isn't a real comparison here. We're talking about a media outlet that outwardly supported and advocated the ouster of a democratically elected leader. That is treason here, as much as it is treason there. Not to mention the money that is flowing in and out of the Venezuelan media machine. I'm willing to bet that foreign money -US money- is influencing the way that reporters are spinning news in Venezuela. They did it with the Miami Herald < http://www.freepress.net/news/17579 >, and I'm willing to bet based on the history of the Chilean experience that the US government is also paying to play in the Venezuelan battle for hearts and minds.

When you add Foreign support to outward advocation of an ouster of a democratically elected president. And we're not even talking about some pundit who comes on and says that he should be ousted, we're talking about a whole network that officially supports the ouster, than you are talking about treason. Opposing that in NO way constitutes a reactionary or "right wing" perspective on the problem. It constitutes a defense of democracy. Bald-faced lies are coming out of the mouths of Fox News and the Venezuelan Media, and the danger is very real of those lies being used against the will of the people. It happened in Chile, and it can happen again. All it takes is for people like us to lose vigilance.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #110
118. Thanks, wish I'd said that!
The truth is always the best way to challenge the lies! :hi:
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #110
120. well, if all this is true...
then why doesn't he just kill them off?? isn't that what dictators do? aha - so he's not a dictator in that regards... got a slight power trip problem, but not dictatorish.. but he is shutting them down, he should (if he hasn't) explain in detail why they are not news, connect the dots, etc...




www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<-- antibush prodem stickers/shirts
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #120
123. With all due respect...
You should explain why you haven't seen this yet...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=583239054568980...

History explains Chavez's position here best. I urge you strongly to watch it in its entirety.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #110
154. Treason requires actions
Calling for and advocating the ouster of a democratically elected leader is NOT treason. It is exercising right to free opinion and free speech. Actions like violent attempts, working with would-be rebels, and the like are treason. Speaking one's mind, regardless of your opinion of what they say, is only treason in places like Nazi Germany.
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #154
157. You are correct.
Edited on Mon Jan-01-07 02:35 PM by heliarc
And on the day of the coup in Venezuela, RCTV was the only station broadcasting and as you can plainly see from watching the movie The Revolution will not be Televised, the Plotters of the coup DIRECTLY thank RCTV for their part in bringing them to power. NOT only that, but Channel 8 State Television was mysteriously off the air on the day of the coup and there are clear reasons to believe that this is due to sabotage. There is also a CLEAR and explicit choice by the broadcasters at RCTV to exclude interviews with Chavez government officials, and/or to report Chavez's refusal to resign. This key piece of information is what told the clear Venezuelan majority, that their democratic choice had been destroyed. This is the definition of treasonous conspiracy in any book, and it employs the definite use of a consolidated media control against the will of the people. It is throroughly documented, and your comparisons to Nazi Germany bear no relationship to this case. The only Military action in favor of Chavez in this case was action by the presidential guard to preserve democracy by retaking the presidential palace (against extraordinary odds) and in defense of the constitution which is clearly of great value to the people of Venezuela. Hitler moved to dissolve the Reichstag, and in this case the only people who dissolved the national assembly and the Supreme court were the coup plotters supported by the RCTV which is entirely complicit. Slander and Libel in a vacuum of opposing opinions... a vaccuum conveniently created by RCTV or by its allies, is an action of grave concern to all of us.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #154
158. I've never heard that suppressing the truth about a country's elected President,
while overlaying it with a complete, deadly LIE to the country constitutes "freedom of expression."

Maybe in your world, most surely not in Venezuela. It didn't go over well with the population.
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pokercat999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
65. It's not a matter of rights but power and those with
the power get the rights. They have power in dollars the poor have nothing, but as the middle class disappears and falls into the poorer class guess what happens. The poor become stronger with sheer numbers. Will Americans stand by like the Indians (East), Chinese, Brazilians and Mexicans and allow the rich and powerful to rule? My guess is we will. Will we allow those in power to fight endless "wars" in our name only to keep themselves rich and powerful...my guess is we will. As long as you let them sell you the dream that you can be one of THEM. It's not true, it will not happen! Only a couple out of every million or so will ever reach that rich and powerful status and it won't be YOU! The game is rigged and you're not in on it. There is only one way to change this truth and it won't be pretty!
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #65
128. you are soooo right. dangle the carrot and people step all over
themselves and everyone else to chase after it. trouble is we can't get enough people to realize this.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
87. Tell that one to the Neo-Cons.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #23
162. Sure, but what if the elites DO have a lot more power than the working class?
(which they do, obviously)

Do the elites have the right to have much more power than the working class?
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #22
153. They still have rights
They still have their freedom of speech. When the freedoms of one are curtailed, without due process or recourse, for any reason, then the freedoms of all are threatened.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
31. Too bad we have that pesky freedom of speech
I'm sure that Bush would never think of shutting down DU even if he had the power to do so.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. Your comparison is flawed...
DU doesn't take up any PUBLIC airwaves like our radio and TV stations that are broadcast, hence, it ISN'T regulated by the government. In addition to this, threats against presidents, and sitting governments, regardless of WHO is in power, is illegal here. If, during Clinton's impeachment, NBC advocated someone drag Clinton out of the White House and shoot him, how long do you think NBC would last?
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #31
49.  US Code, Title 18, Section 871, "Threats against the President and presidential successors,"
Read on...

(a) Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits for conveyance in the mail or for a delivery from any post office or by any letter carrier any letter, paper, writing, print, missive, or document containing any threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon the President of the United States, the President-elect, the Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President of the United States, or the Vice President-elect, or knowingly and willfully otherwise makes any such threat against the President, President-elect, Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President, or Vice President-elect, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

(b) The terms President-elect and Vice President-elect as used in this section shall mean such persons as are the apparent successful candidates for the offices of President and Vice President, respectively, as ascertained from the results of the general elections held to determine the electors of President and Vice President in accordance with title 3, United States Code, sections 1 and 2. The phrase other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President as used in this section shall mean the person next in the order of succession to act as President in accordance with title 3, United States Code, sections 19 and 20.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_0...
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
56. All media should be allowed to operate freely.
I'm sorry. I don't support this one bit. Censorship and control of the media is a road to authoritarianism.
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #56
124. Please...
I beg you to watch this video, and stop believing the lies.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=583239054568980...

The video details how on the night of the coup 2002 STATE television channel 8 (in support of Chavez) strangely went off the air due to technical problems. Someone was behind that, and it may very well have been military supporters of RCTV

It has been 4 freaking years since "Private" television participated in a coup attempt against Chavez and this is the first Chavez has threatened to take away their license because they continue to advocate terror and military action against a democratically elected government. That shows a lot of resiliency and respect for freedom of speech on Chavez's part. They supported and willfully broadcasted lies that empowered a man who dissolved the National Assembly, Supreme Court and dismissed the Attorney General... The RCTV were agents of FASCISM. They don't deserve protection under democracy if they were willing to destroy it!!!
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #124
131. I've seen it all.
I watch Latin America much more closely than you know. I believe in absolute freedom of the press. People have a choice what they watch.
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #131
141. THE PROOF IS IN THE VIDEO GOLPISTAS **THANKING RCTV**
Edited on Sun Dec-31-06 02:31 PM by Say_What
If you watch LatAm as you claim (highly doubtful) or had you watched the video (also very doubtful), you'd know all about the anti-Chavez media and the part they played in the failed coup. Had you watched the video you could not deny that the Golpistas thanked RCTV and Venevision on TV just after Dictator for a day Pedro Carmona dismantled the SC, National Assembly, and every other official branch of the legal, democratically elected Chavez government.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=583239054568980...

Move the slider to 43:16 to see it for yourself. Better yet, get yourself an education by watching the entire documentary and the USSA at work trying to overthrow yet another democratically elected leader./
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #141
142. Just went to look at that scene again, saw the URL has been changed.
Here it is:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=583239054568980...

Thanks for the idea! Gonna check it out, now.
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #142
143. Thanks! I changed it. :-) n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #141
144. Oh, yeah. That scene would be helpful. NO WONDER certain posters refuse to watch it.
Edited on Sun Dec-31-06 02:50 PM by Judi Lynn
The oligarchy "journalists" damn themselves with their own words. Ha ha ha ha ha. What a smug, dirty, ugly, grimey, slimey bunch of people.

Pedro Carmona Estanga, pulling himself up to his full height, using his very best Spanish, claimed they had a mandate of the people. That was because they had blocked out the information of what they had done from all the radio, tv stations, and the newspapers. As soon as the people found out, they poured right into the streets.

WHAT SCUM! What human dregs. These degenerates strutted about, insisting they are the rightful leaders of their country: hell awaits them.



Self-proclaimed (oligarchy dolt, one-day) Venezuelan President
the formerly invincible Pedro Carmona Estanga, embraced by
Fedecameras President Carlos Fernandez, opposition leader who
filed for asylum right here in the U.S.

More on Carlos Fernandez:
The petition, filed last month includes his immediate family, who have been enjoying a continued life of luxury in Aruba, Florida and Spain since Fernandez conned his way out of custody on the pretext of a serious medical condition.

Carlos Fernandez along with the pro-bosses Confederation of Venezuelan Workers Union (CTV) president Carlos Ortega, and former oil executive Juan Fernandez, headed the three-month sabotage of the oil industry and a lock-out of hundreds of businesses between December of 2002 and February of 2003. The lock-out was aimed at toppling President Hugo Chavez, and caused 7.3 billion US dollars in losses, and a historic 27% drop in the country's GDP for the first trimester of 2003.
(snip)
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1136

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #144
164. here's a clip with just that scene:
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #164
165. A keeper!! Thank you so much for that clip of the Golpistas **THANKING RCTV** and the other media...
Edited on Tue Jan-02-07 10:48 AM by Say_What
the day after they kidnapped Chavez. Interesting how the Chavez haters on this thread have completely avoided viewing it. :-)

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #164
166. Beautiful! They can't claim they are too feeble to figure out where to locate that place
on the video originally offered to them by Say_What, at 43:16!

This is absolutely perfect. I can see why they refuse to admit having seen it. It damns their stupid "arguments."

I doubt I have EVER seen a group of shiftier, sleazier, creepier public personalities in my entire life.

Thank you so much, rman. I have filed your video away in two different places to make sure I don't lose track of it.
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #56
129. operate freely? on whose behalf?
there must be a basis on what is determined to be freely. the rich elitist pigs have control of the media here, and they're trying to maintain their stranglehold there. i don't call that operating freely.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #129
132. Those are lines that when you start to draw them lead inevitably towards
authoritarian rule. Absolute freedom of the press or nothing at all.
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #132
133. i'm all for absolute freedom of the press....
but what is going on down there is not freedom of the press.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #133
135. "Freedom of the press" doesn't actually mean the wealthy elite can destabilize
the government through illegal, traitorous actions.

We surely see straight through their crooked claims of their right to any actions they choose.

People who are in the dark about what any of this means should make arrangements to spend some time doing research, and finding out the facts about these events.

Good people won't be misled: they'll take the time to find out the truth.

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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #132
151. Than I suppose you would be equally curious as to...
Why the Channel 8 State television station had convenient "technical problems" on the day of the coup and couldn't broadcast the truth that Chavez had NOT resigned, or that the Chavez supporters were being slaughtered. These people didn't have a choice and the RCTV was complicit-- tacitly and directly -- with the people who stole that choice away. If you believe in absolute freedom of the press, than you must oppose those who threaten to destroy the means of its distribution. It may sound like a catch 22, but it really isn't.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #14
93. you GOTTA be kidding NT
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
109. I'll remind you that treason is an affront to democracy.
This man was elected to office, and when there is a conspiracy to oust a democratically elected leader this is a treachery that should not be mistaken for simple censorship. In 1973 Chilean media outlets received foreign money from the US to libelously accuse Salvador Allende for a whole host of atrocities. Libel is illegal, and ultimately the slander and accusations swayed the throngs of fascists who supported the torture of thousands upon thousands of law abiding citizens who supported the democratically elected Allende.

I suppose that if the Saudi Government were sending money covertly to Fox News to trump up countless false accusations of gross impropriety in our Democratic Congress, you might also think that this was protected under freedom of speech??? Would you? Or should the FCC fine this sort of cancerous truthiness? Or perhaps they should revoke their license. I tend to think this would make sense.

But I guess these things don't happen in the US. Nevermind that Rupert Murdoch - one man - gets to send memos about what spin is important on any given day. Nevermind that Foreign holdings in this country grow every day, and with this growth the sway these nations have on our policies.

Now the burden of proof is on Chavez to provide adequate proof of conspiracy or collusion, but given the historical way that these things happen - given my dead and tortured relatives in Chile, and the lies they told about Allende with US money - I'm betting his claims are probably more likely than it may seem to some at DU.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. If the dems hadn't spoke out, only Faux News would be shown
n/t
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. You must be kidding.
You really believe that - but for Democrats - Republicans would have shut down every TV news outlet in the US except Fox News? Assuming they would even want to do such a thing, it should be plainly obvious that they could never get away with it here.
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pokercat999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
66. LOL, ROTFL such a kidder. You can't be that naive. Yes
I can be that cynical.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #66
156. They wouldn't be able to get away with it
Not that easily. That would be too blatant for the majority of the people to ignore.
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booley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wasn't this the same station...
that was advocating overthrowing the government if Chavez won re-election?
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. BINGO!! Righto booley... and the quote comes from the other Golpista
paper, Globovision, owned by Bush pal and Chavez hater Gustavo Cisneros.

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booley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
54. If so, how is this even controversial then?
If a station here in the US did this, they would have been shut down long before now.

And even the most ardent free speech advocate (myself included) wouldn't argue otherwise.

Free speech doesn't cover violence and military coups.
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #54
63. Controversial because the MSM in the USSA wants to demonize
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 03:25 PM by Say_What
Chavez and everything he does. It's the same old SOP that they've been using for decades around the globe on leaders who won't kowtow to Tio Sam.

Added to that there are a lot of people who are very ignorant about the coup (this thread, for example) and what is actually going on in Venezuela. They whine 'free speech, free speech' regurgitating the propaganda they just read/heard in the MSM. The propaganda machine in the USSA works very well. Even those who consider themselves *well informed* are in fact pathetically duped by US propaganda. :eyes:









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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #54
97. Exactly.
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. but, but
sorry Chavistas, he was always in fact the mediocre-at-best "leader" some of us have been saying is.
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Another knee jerk remark by another Venezuela *expert*...
do some research before sticking your foot in your mouth.

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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
107. Okay, tell me what is so magical about this man?
Are you saying he is a Democrat?
give me some examples please.
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. You need to do your own research so YOU can make an informed
decision. This thread is filled with plenty of links to start you off.



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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #107
112. How about we start with the fact...
that he was democratically elected. Maybe that's not enough of a badge to wear for him, but I do declare: The public will is a damn good start. We at least claim its enough here in our own country.
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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #112
149. Absolutely. He was democratically elected.
I asked for examples that he acts like a democrat. I am not saying he does not. I don't really have an opinion but I am always suspect of personality worship of any human (of any religion, party, or philosophy).

That's all.
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #149
152. I don't know that anyone here is worshipping anyone.
He has acted like a democrat by giving the 80 percent of the people of Venezuela who live in poverty a better life. His literacy programs are the definition of democracy. His redistribution of oil wealth to the poor in the form of universalized health programs are also the definition of democracy. Previously, an elite controlled the flow of wealth and power. Now, that is simply not the case.

He has also acted foolishly on the international stage. His diplomacy is encouraging only to his supporters and this does not further his causes with the US. I'm willing to make that concession. Are you willing to concede that his democratic actions are worth defending?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
86. Too bad we can't get someone that "mediocre" in office.
lol
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. Venezuelan official denounces press watchdog group
CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- Venezuela's information minister accused the international press freedom group Reporters Without Borders on Thursday of lying about government plans to call a referendum on the future of an opposition-aligned TV station.

Willian Lara said the Paris-based watchdog tried to "mislead public opinion" and falsely create the impression that private broadcaster Radio Caracas Television, or RCTV, was being targeted by the government.

Reporters Without Borders said this week that Lara had said the government would call a national referendum on whether to renew RCTV's broadcast license when it expires next year. The group expressed concern that President Hugo Chavez's government could be seeking to revoke RCTV's concession because it is sympathetic to the country's opposition.

Lara said in a statement that "it is a lie that the revolutionary government of Venezuela is promoting a referendum on this matter."

He did not deny, however, that the future of the network remains in doubt pending the government's decision to renew its concession, which expires on May 27, 2007
~snip~

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/12/21/venezuela....
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. Reporters Without Borders?? You mean that org that NED funds??
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 12:25 AM by Say_What
C'mon, do some research for keeerist's sake.

On edit: When you do your research check the role that NED played in the failed coup.

<clips>

Reporters Without Borders and Washington's Coups

British press baron Lord Northcliff said, "News is something that someone, somewhere wants to keep secret, everything else is advertising." If this is true, then U.S. government funding of Reporters Without Borders must be news, because the organization and its friends in Washington have gone to extraordinary lengths to cover it up. In spite of 14 months of stonewalling by the National Endowment for Democracy over a Freedom of Information Act request and a flat denial from RSF executive director Lucie Morillon, the NED has revealed that Reporters Without Borders received grants over at least three years from the International Republican Institute.

The NED still refuses to provide the requested documents or even reveal the grant amounts, but they are identified by these numbers: IRI 2002-022/7270, IRI 2003-027/7470 and IRI 2004-035/7473. Investigative reporter Jeremy Bigwood asked Morillon on April 25 if her group was getting any money from the I.R.I., and she denied it, but the existence of the grants was confirmed by NED assistant to the president, Patrick Thomas.

The discovery of the grants reveals a major deception by the group, which for years denied it was getting any Washington dollars until some relatively small grants from the NED and the Center for a Free Cuba were revealed (see Counterpunch: "Reporters Without Borders Unmasked"). When asked to account for its large income RSF has claimed the money came from the sale of books of photographs. But researcher Salim Lamrani has pointed out the improbability of this claim. Even taking into account that the books are published for free, it would have had to sell 170 200 books in 2004 and 188 400 books in 2005 to earn the more than $2 million the organization claims to make each year 516 books per day in 2005. The money clearly had to come from other sources, as it turns out it did.

The I.R.I., an arm of the Republican Party, specializes in meddling in elections in foreign countries, as a look at NED annual reports and the I.R.I. website shows. It is one of the four core grantees of the NED, the organization founded by Congress under the Reagan administration in 1983 to replace the CIA's civil society covert action programs, which had been devastated by exposure by the Church committee in the mid-1970s (Ignatius, 1991). The other three pillars of the NED are the National Democratic Institute (the Democratic Party), the Solidarity Center (AFL-CIO) and the Center for International Private Enterprise (U.S. Chamber of Commerce). But of all the groups the I.R.I. is closest to the Bush administration, according to a recent piece in The New York Times exposing its role in the overthrow of Haitian president Jean-Bertrand Aristide:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=1069...

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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. thanks for the info
:hi:
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. Stupendous! Your article gets better as it goes along!
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 03:26 AM by Judi Lynn
Simply adore this part:
Funding from the I.R.I. presents a major problem for RSF's credibility as a "press freedom" organization because the group manufactured propaganda against the popular democratic governments of Venezuela and Haiti at the same time that its patron, the I.R.I., was deeply involved in efforts to overthrow them. The I.R.I. funded the Venezuelan opposition to President Hugo Chavez (Barry, 2005) and actively organized Haitian opposition to Aristide in conjunction with the CIA (Bogdanich and Nordberg, 2006).

The man who links RSF to these activities is Otto Reich, who worked on the coups first as assistant secretary of state for Latin American affairs, and, after Nov. 2002, as a special envoy to Latin America on the National Security Council. Besides being a trustee of the government-funded Center for a Free Cuba, which gives RSF $50,000 a year, Reich has worked since the early 1980's with the I.R.I.'s senior vice president, Georges Fauriol, another member of the Center for a Free Cuba. But it is Reich's experience in propaganda that is especially relevant. In the 1980's he was caught up in investigations into the Reagan administration's illegal war on the Sandinistas. The comptroller general determined in 1987 that Reich's Office of Public Diplomacy had "engaged in prohibited covert propaganda activities." (Bogdanich and Nordberg, 2006). In early 2002, once George Bush had given him a recess appointment to the State Department, "Reich was soon tasked to orchestrate a massive international media defamation campaign against Chvez that has continued until this day" (Conkling and Goble, 2004).

(snip)
These people are monsters, nothing short. God damn them all.

Thanks for this article. The information is true, and it's found elsewhere for anyone who wants to double check.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
50. Too many people don't connect the dots.
Thanks for posting this.
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
113. Funny,
I was just suggesting this was the case in some previous posts. Of course its for real.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. I say shut it down and arrest its executives for treason.
They openly sided with the fascist coup. It's time to settle accounts. They violated Venezuelan laws and should be held to account.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. If CNN did the same after the 2004 election here, would you feel the same?
I'm not sure how I feel about Venuezla's RCTV, but I'd probably been cheering CNN on. :shrug:
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. please compare and contrast
media oligarchs actually sponsoring a neo-fascist coup

and

media oligarchs hypothetically protesting a stolen election
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
70. Rove Had a Media Plan for 2000, In Case Gore Won the Electoral Vote & * Won the Popularr
The story was in the NY Post about two weeks before the Nov. 2000 election.

Had the scenario been reversed, if Bush had won the popular vote but Gore the electoral, RW media had marching orders to go wall-to-wall to get people to scream to have the results thrown out.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. You're so right. I remember that clearly. They were definitely ready
to raise hell over the injustice of the electoral system.

Seems like a million years ago, doesn't it? My god. We've aged so rapidly, internally, over the last 7 years of pure hell.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #11
163. Sorry, i think you don't know what you're taking about -
RCTV (and other commercial Venezuelan media) supported the 2002 military coup against Chavez - what do you mean by "If CNN did the same after the 2004 election here"?
If you mean 'what if CNN cried foul about the 2004 election fraud', then they certainly would NOT have been doing the same as RCTV. Or is it that you are trying to suggest Chavez won the election due to fraud? How can you even compare CNN to RCTV if (by your own admission) you are not sure how you feel about RCTV?

Here they are live on TV, admitting complicity in the coup against Chavez:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xKLtJIRmjxE

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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
155. First investigate, then indict, then convict, then prove enterprise corruption
You can't just go from point a to point f and still be following due process and rule of law. To unilaterally shut down a news network in this manner smacks of censorship, not of a proper criminal investigation.
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
9. He is closing Fox?
good.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
57. If a Democratic president attempted to close down Fox or censor
their content, I would call for that president's resignation and would vote against any Democrat who supported that move in the congressional elections and the next presidential election.
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #57
114. Yes, but Fox hasn't yet called for...
the military ouster of a democratically elected president, and done so with foreign funding... not the last I heard at least...

Wouldn't be surprised though... and frankly, they've gotten pretty close.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. Good for him. They were advocating the overthrow of his legitimately elected government.
That is TREASON.

We wouldn't tolerate that here.

Why should he tolerate it any further there.

He has already tolerated it for years already.

He has the patience of JOBE (job?)
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Stella_Artois Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
41. Treason ?
Then why isn't someone being tried for treason ?

How about having his own media telling his version of the truth and allowing the people to decide ? Are his people too stupid to make their own decision about who is telling the truth ?
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #41
125. No.
His people are stymied by a complex legal system that tends to sluggishly uphold the elite classes.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=583239054568980...

Please watch the video. It does a body good to do some research.

You might also consult the history of the late Pinochet. He is guilty of mass murder and mass torture... certainly... but never went to trial. Here we have a similar problem. Money protects murderers. These people were responsible for spinning the murder of at least 10 Chavistas on that fateful day in April. They spun it and then laughed on their bloodsucking station with the military traitors that thank them for their part in the whole charade. Its disgusting, but in my opinion, the facts are all laid out, and you just need to seek them out. So here they are in this video. Please watch diligently, or if you don't have the time, jump ahead to the middle so you get the story of the coup itself. You are in for a big surprise.
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
13. To those who say this is justified b/c the station is "treasonous"...
... what happened to freedom of speech?

Freedom of speech includes everyone, however heinous their views may be.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Freedom of speech for corporations only, is not freedom of speech.
Considering how the corporate media controls the flow of information in the US, I am amazed that we still have people that defend the corporate "freedom of speech" while denying it to the people.

BTW, a corporation is not a person either!
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. No it doesn't.
From virtually the day this nation was created our highest courts have maintained exceptions to free speech, including in cases of treason (for a depressing example see Iva Toguri D'Aquino). (Sedition may be a double-secret crime again, too: this year's "SAFE Port Act" makes mention of conviction for sedition, though as a federal crime it's been off the books for two hundred years.)

RCTV not only aired commercials for the opposition for free in 2003, it also wholeheartedly threw its support to coup leader Pedro Carmona. (So too did the Bush Administration, so it's no surprise that Carmona was recently found living in Miami.) It also cut short the press conference of a Chavez Administration member when he announced that Chavez was forcibly overthrown, rather than having resigned as RCTV erroneously (and obviously, intentionally) reported.

In other words, RCTV was giving aid and comfort to the enemy--those who would overthrow the freely elected government of Venezuela. It wouldn't be legal here, and Chavez has shown amazing restraint in not placing RCTV execs against the wall there.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #13
43. So no limits?
If fox news was calling for the overthrow of the democratically elected government that would be ok with you?

No limits? So hard core porn 24/7 on broadcast tv would be fine?

No limits?
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
115. Not when big money supports a dictatorship...
that is contrary to the very freedom that freedom of speech implies - namely democratic election. We're talking about an organized campaign of slander and libel that is bent on deposing a democratically elected leader. AND we're talking about foreign and corporate funding that seeks to poison the open exchange of real journalistic work. Such organized campaigns are treasonous.

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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
16. HOW HATE MEDIA INCITED THE COUP AGAINST THE PRESIDENT
<clips>

HOW HATE MEDIA INCITED THE COUP AGAINST THE PRESIDENT
Venezuelas press power

Never even in Latin American history has the media been so directly involved in a political coup. Venezuelas hate media controls 95% of the airwaves and has a near-monopoly over newsprint, and it played a major part in the failed attempt to overthrow the president, Hugo Chvez, in April. Although tensions in the country could easily spill into civil war, the media is still directly encouraging dissident elements to overthrow the democratically elected president - if necessary by force.

...On 11 April military and civilian press conferences calling for the presidents resignation marked the next phase. On RCTV {Radio Caracas TV}, Ortega called on the opposition to march on Miraflores (the presidential palace). At about 4pm, when the scale of the conspiracy was apparent, the authorities gave the order to block the frequencies used by the private channels. Globovisin, CMT and Televen went off air for a few moments before resuming their broadcasts using satellite or cable. All screens broadcast an image that had been edited to show armed counter-demonstrators firing on "the crowd of peaceful demonstrators". As a result the Bolivarian Circles, the social organisation of Chvez supporters, were blamed for deaths and injuries (8).

The conspirators, including Carmona, met at the offices of Venevisin. They stayed until 2am to prepare "the next stage", along with Rafael Poleo (owner of El Nuevo Pais) and Gustavo Cisneros, a key figure in the coup. Cisneros, a multimillionaire of Cuban origin and the owner of Venevisin, runs a media empire - Organizacin Diego Cisneros. It has 70 outlets in 39 countries (9). Cisneros is a friend of George Bush senior: they play golf together and in 2001 the former US president holidayed in Cisneross Venezuelan property. Both are keen on the privatisation of the PDVSA (10). Otto Reich, US assistant secretary of state for Interamerican affairs, admits to having spoken with Cisneros that night (11).

At 4am on 12 April, to avoid bloodshed, Chvez allowed himself to be arrested and taken to the distant island of Orchila. Without presenting any document signed by Chvez to confirm the news, the media chorused his "resignation". The boss of the bosses, Carmona, proclaimed himself president and dissolved all of the constituent, legitimate and democratic bodies. Venezolana de Televisin, the only means of communication available to the government, was the first broadcaster forced to shut down when Carmona took power (12).

...The desire for revenge provoked repression. The interior minister, Ramn Rodrguez Chacn, and a member of parliament, Tarek William Saab, were arrested, and heckled and manhandled by a crowd. RCTV triggered a manhunt by publishing a list of the most wanted individuals and broadcast violent searches live, aping the hectic pace of US news broadcasts. The live broadcast on all channels of attorney general Isias Rodrguezs press conference was suddenly taken off air after only five minutes when he talked about the excesses of the "provisional government" and condemned the "coup".

...Thousands logged on to the internet and got on their mobile phones, but only the alternative press was able to beat the blackout. Popular newspapers, television and radio began life in the poor districts, and were an important source of communication and information. Short on experience, they were the first targets of the "democratic transition". According to Thierry Deronne, the presenter of Teletambores, Chvez had never asked them to broadcast his speeches.

But the anti-Chvez powers did not hesitate long after their coup before arresting editorial staff and seizing equipment, ensuring that the only way the people could find out what was really happening was via the opposition press. In Caracas, Radio Perola, TV Caricuao, Radio Catia Libre and Catia TV were searched and personnel subjected to violence and detention.

In the late afternoon of 13 April, crowds gathered in front of RCTV (then Venevisin, Globovisin, Televen and CMT, as well as the offices of El Universal and El Nacional), throwing stones and compelling journalists to broadcast a message calling for "their" president to be restored. It was an intolerable attack on the press; terrified journalists broadcast an appeal for help on air - conveniently forgetting that they were supposed to be on the rebel side. "We too are part of the people; we too are Venezuelans and we are doing our duty. It is not possible that the supporters of Lieutenant Colonel Hugo Chvez {no mention that he was head of state} should consider us their enemies."

It was 20 hours before the state channel Venezolana de Televisin came back on the air with the help of militants from the community media and from soldiers from the presidential guard. The silence was broken and Venezuelans then found out that the situation was changing. Except for Ultimas Noticias, no newspaper was published next day to announce the presidents return. The private television channels broadcast no bulletins. Globovisin alone rebroadcast the information that had been transmitted by the international agencies (13).

http://mondediplo.com/2002/08/10venezuela
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Steepler0t Donating Member (348 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
26. A must see movie about this "Media" and the coup they backed
On April 12th 2002 the world awoke to the news that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez had been removed from office and had been replaced by a new interim government.




What had in fact taken place was the first Latin American coup of the 21st century,

and the world's first media coup


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=583239054568980...
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Great idea. Very decent film. As you can see, a LOT of eyes still
need to be opened.
Welcome to D.U., Steepler0t. :hi: :hi: :hi:
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #26
48. "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised"!! Thanks for the link to the VIDEO!!
Saw it in the theatre just after it was released.
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #26
117. GREAT VIDEO. ALL involved in this thread should watch.
Compelling and throrough documentation and footage of the coup in 2002 and media manipulation by the elite interests of the oil classes, and even the coordination of foreign US interests as well. Must See.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
29. If any American station openly advocated the overthrow or assassination of Bush...
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 07:30 AM by BushOut06
...they'd have their license revoked pretty damned quickly, and those who made the suggestions would find their ass in prison. I don't see anything wrong with what Chavez is doing. There is a difference between opposing the government and openly calling for its removal by force.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #29
90. No, the people who advocated it would be thrown in jail...
the channel would be free to broadcast onward.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec...

By targeting the whole station instead of individuals who were involved, Chavez is not merely trying to go after those who tried to overthrow his government, but also those who have differing viewpoints.

As to the referendum in general, there is such a thing as a "tyranny of the majority". Would you want Bush to shut us up, even if he was supported by a majority of America? I know I wouldn't.

Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's right. That's not an excuse to ignore the majority or it's wishes, but that certainly is the reason someone shouldn't have their rights taken away.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. You need to spend your time getting the facts straight on this story.
God knows there's enough informtion available to you to be able to come to an actual understanding of the situation.

Just lower yourself long enough to start with the information available on this thread, f'r instance.

If you really invested your time and forced yourself to concentrate on what has happened, and how, and who's involved, etc., etc., etc. you wouldn't have to keep making interjections that reveal you haven't the faintest idea of what is happening.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
30. Chavez takes his cues from Castro.
Fidel's lapdog won't be satisfied until the government owns the media.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #30
47. On what do you base this blather?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #47
101. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
32. nom. People should see this thread... plenty valuable info here!!
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Mudoria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Hugo is doing the right
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 08:40 AM by Mudoria
thing for the people of Venezuela. He works for their benefit and makes all of their lives better every day. Every thing he does is with only their welfare in mind. The people don't need any other source of news or opposing viewpoints other than his. Close the station down!
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. nonsense..
Other sources of news and opposing viewpoints are not the problem...

It's calls for the violent overthrow of an elected government that is the problem.
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Stella_Artois Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. Really ?
Then why not for example pass a law making the advocation of the violent overthrow of the government via the media an illegal act ? Then prosecute the people doing it if they persist ?

Why shutdown the whole station ? Why give the impression that he's actually more interesting in just shutting down opposing views ?
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Stella_Artois Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. Thats right !
I hope they are controlling internet access as well. The internet is used by people who are against the well being of the people.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
33. How long would a tv station keep its license here
if it had openly supported an attempt to overthrow the government?

How long would DU operate if it allowed posts advocating the violent overthrow of the US government?

I think Chavez is just blustering: it seems the station's license is not up for renewal anytime soon, and I think this actually will not happen, and that if it did happen it would be the wrong thing to do, but I also think that all expressing such shock and horror ought to answer the above questions before calling this particular kettle black.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
35. Why-NO!!1 I don't buh-LEEVE it!!1 He just got ELECTED!!!1
:popcorn:
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Voronski Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
37. If it's Fox News, I could understand
But what does a giant like Chavez have to fear from a free press? I just dont understand.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. A "free press"
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Just like you Amis have; a 24/7 shit spew! Rwanda has convicted and jailed some of the sort you have on YOUR airwaves. Yet, you rather wag your finger at the "other." HOW LONG would a station last on you own shores advocating the overthrow of those who have done YOU SO MUCH DAMAGE??? Hmmmm? :freak:
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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
39. Why doesn't he buy it like they do here? n/t
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
44. Water is warming little froggies
The shills for this guy are having a harder and harder time defending him. I remember when I joined how the same people came to his rescue every time he started sounding like a new castro.

He is consolidating power. Any person who can not clearly see that this is happening is pretty blind.

"President Bush says he will not renew the license for NBC if Keith Olbermann stays on the air...." Yeah that is right, same thing..
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. KO is advocating a military coup?
How long would a tv station keep its license in this bastion of freedom of ours had it openly advocated the violent overthrow of the us government?
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #45
68. They advocated strikes..
They are a conduit for opinion. I have read many things here that are on the edge. That does not mean the place should be shut down.

All I read was that they advocated strikes held by a large number of people, rich city folk who didn't like chavez. Not liking him and calling for him to leave is not illegal.

People make comments here all the time that refer to bush (et al) in the same way.

Bottom line is he is starting to slip. All the red shirts and rhetoric are true. Believe it. He will continue to consolidate power, unless oil falls. Then his little empire built on petro dollars will come crashing down.

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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #68
78. You just keep repeating that and eventually it might become true.
Meanwhile it is an incomplete account of RCTV's activities as it ommits their support for the violent overthrow of the Chavez government in the aborted CIA sponsored 2002 coup.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #68
79. I think it's a shame you are allowed to continue posting the same lies,
YEAR IN, YEAR OUT. Fortunately for the survival of the truth, there will possibly be at least one other DU'er around who knows the truth, has known it, and who will take the time to follow up on your remarks, one way or another, if time allows.

I presume you are always shooting for that one time none of us are around and your lies will stand. It's a damned pity if that happens, and some person wanders into D.U. who has been in a coma for the last 5 years and has no awareness of this subject.

I think you know those of us who have done our homework will not let that happen if we have any time available to set the issue straight.

From a post I just added at #77, or so, from an article written 4 months after the coup:
How Hate Media Incited The Coup Against President Chvez

Venezuelas press power

Never in Latin American history has the media been so directly involved in a political coup. Venezuelas hate media controls 95% of the airwaves and has a near-monopoly over newsprint, and it played a major part in the failed attempt to overthrow the president, Hugo Chvez, in April. Although tensions in the country could easily spill into civil war, the media is still directly encouraging dissident elements to overthrow the democratically elected president - if necessary by force.

by Maurice Lemoine

08/11/02 "Le Monde diplomatique" -- We had a deadly weapon: the media. And now that I have the opportunity, let me congratulate you." In Caracas, on 11 April 2002, just a few hours before the temporary overthrow of Venezuelas president, Hugo Chvez, Vice-Admiral Victor Ramrez Prez congratulated journalist Ibyiste Pacheco live on Venevision television. Twenty minutes earlier, when Pacheco had begun to interview a group of rebel officers, she could not resist admitting, conspiratorially, that she had long had a special relationship with them.

At the same time, in a live interview from Madrid, another journalist, Patricia Poleo, also seemed well informed about the likely future development of "spontaneous events". She announced on the Spanish channel TVE: "I believe the next president is going to be Pedro Carmona." Chvez, holed up in the presidential palace, was still refusing to step down.
(snip)
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:rfkySFDr6CEJ:www.i...
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #79
136. Better shut me down, take my ability to speak away
Show me a link from afp or some real news source. That is an advocacy site.

I think it is funny to see people shill for a foreign power. I am an American and a democrat. The ranting of a communist fueled by our petro dollars is entertainment for me.

His musings on the american empire and its fall are funny. When his army puts a 9mm round through his head (which will happen eventually) he will be a hero, like che. He better hope gas stays up or he is in deep shit.
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #68
84. The PROOF IS IN THE VIDEO--GOLPISTAS **THANKING RCTV**
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=583239054568980...

Move the slider to 43:16 to see it for yourself. Better yet, get yourself an education by watching the entire documentary and the USSA at work trying to overthrow yet another democratically elected leader.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #84
102. Some interesting points detailed in "govegan's" post #100, about this film
~snip~
The film exposes the atrocious human rights violations committed with the purpose of executing the coup successfully, including:
The extrajudicial killing of more than 50 people;
The torture of pro-government supporters and government officials;
The kidnapping and unlawful detention of President Chvez for a 48-hour period;
The arbitrary arrest and persecution of pro-government supporters and officials;
The violation of rights to political participation and self-determination by unjustly imposing an unelected de facto government on citizens;
The violation of freedom of expression and public access to information by perpetuating a media-led blackout on information during the mass protests demanding President Chvezs return to power, and distorting news and manipulating images that were used as justification for violence, aggression and the coup itself.
(snip)
Thank you for marking the target points in the film and providing a "map" to them. Invaluable. I've bookmarked this thread to be able to keep them for future reference.

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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #68
119. Wow. They've got you hook line and sinker.
I refuse to believe the same nonsense they wanted us to believe when they set Allende up to take the fall. The Coup of 2002 as well as the coordinated "news" blitz is textbook CIA/elitist manipulation and sabotage. Don't tell me what to believe.
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booley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #44
55. Sorry, but I'm not getting it.
This station advocated the overthrow of the government if they didnt' get thier way through democratic means and supported a military coup.

if this was any other country, including ones we normally think of as "free" like Sweden or England, there would be no controversey.

But it's only when the name "chevez" pops up that suddenly we get people saying that chevez is the "nw Castro",whatever that's supposed to mean.
But every attempt to show that Chavez is a dictator keeps falling flat.

Like this comment...

"President Bush says he will not renew the license for NBC if Keith Olbermann stays on the air...." Yeah that is right, same thing..

Asuming you didn't mean that sarcasticly, then NO, it's NOT the same thing. Not unless you can show us where Olberamn has ever advocated on the air that the US democracy be overthrown.

I think there are people who are letting thier biases cloud thier judgement. But it's not those that are pro-Chavez or agree with this decision.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #55
67. They advocated strikes
that is not overthrow. If KO said we should strike because of x that is not an overthrow.

Chavez is a strongman. Call him what you want.

Time will tell, I am pretty sure of my prediction.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #67
76. They openly supported the coup. nt.
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Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #44
62. Keith Olberman is on cable
exactly where RCTV is headed, ouch!!
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #44
85. What Chavez should do is make money for the elites, then it's OK
DEMOCRACY, GENERAL ELECTRIC STYLE

By David Podvin and Carolyn Kay

Shortly after George W. Bush declared his candidacy for President in June of 1999, General Electric Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Jack Welch was contacted by Bush political advisor Karl Rove. Welch later informed associates that Rove told him a Bush administration would initiate comprehensive deregulation of the broadcast industry. Rove guaranteed that deregulation would be implemented in a way that would create phenomenal profits for conglomerates with significant media holdings, like GE. Rove forcefully argued that General Electric and the other media giants had a compelling financial interest to see Bush become President.

Welch told several people at GE that the conversation with Rove convinced him that a Bush presidency would ultimately result in billions of dollars of additional profits for General Electric. Welch believed that it was his responsibility to operate in the best interest of GE shareholders, and that now meant using the full power of the world's biggest corporation to get Bush into the White House.

Toward that end, Welch said that he would finally deal with a longstanding grievance of his: the ludicrous idea that news organizations should be allowed to operate in conflict with the best interests of the corporations that own them.
------------------------snip---------------------------------
<http://www.midtod.com/exclusives/jack-welch.phtml >
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
46. No free speech for those wanting to limit free speech......that's the ticket.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
58. Aren't you limiting free speech yourself by doing that?
It's a paradox.
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. I believe it is more hypocrisy than a paradox.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
52. What is the letter of the law? Who has the power to decide upon renewal, on what basis, and when?
The article is rather unclear about that.

What actually happened: Chavez made a declaration. Which may contain a mistake about the expiration date. In short, nothing actually happened.

I'm not sufficiently informed about the technicalities. In order to have informed opinion about this matter, one would have to run through a damn lot of paperwork. Which I doubt the "ooga booga far left evil US lapdog good" commandoes didn't do either.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
59. One hopes Bush** doesn't try that
oh, that's right, he doesn't have to. Our MSM has internalized how best to serve its corporate masters. In effect, any opposition TV with any reach here has shut itself down. See how much better our system is? :sarcasm:
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
61. Should the Rwanda stations broadcasting
incitements to genocide (see for example the excellent Hotel Rwanda) have been shut down, or would that have been an example of thuggery?

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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
69. False comparison
no one was advocating genocide. They advocated strikes, civil unrest, all legal.

Should dissenting media be destroyed here.

Like I said this guy is busy lining up his little duckies. It would be wise for any us politician who does not his name mixed in with a SA communist dictator in 5 years to cut ties now.

He is a power hungry man, looking for more. As long as oil is up, so is his agenda. Energy drops, he will be dead in short order.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. "They advocated strikes, civil unrest, all legal"
Actually RCTV supported the bungled 2002 coup, all illegal. The point is that there are obviously limits. The question is has RCTV passed over those limits. The answer, from the perspective of what would be allowed in our country, this bastion of free speech, is absolutely. No broadcast station would keep its license after advocating the violent overthrow of the government.

Of course RCTV has not lost its license, four years after supporting the bungled CIA sponsored coup. Its license is not even up for renewal anytime soon. All that happened is that the bloviating leftist populist Chavez repeated his threat to not renew their license.
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
64. typical behavior, worthy of his predecessors. nt.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
72. RCTV openly supported the violent military coup against Chavez, and
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 06:10 PM by Peace Patriot
shutting down of all democratic institutions, including the National Assembly. How's that for the press supporting freedom and democracy?

"Many media outlets, including RCTV, supported a bungled coup in 2002 and a devastating general strike in 2003 that failed to unseat the president."--BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6215815.stm

Like our Bushites and fascists here, RCTV supports freedom of speech for fascists and corporatists, not for everyone. They wanted a fascist state, like Pinochet's Chile, where leftists and rebellious peasants are thrown out of airplanes, or tortured and 'disappeared' into anonymous graves.

That's what they advocated. That's what they supported. That's what they colluded in trying to bring about.

So I have no sympathy for them as a bastion of a "free press." They are not.

Further, the airwaves are public property and are licensed to individuals and corporations as a PUBLIC SERVICE--just as here. CBS or Faux News have no right to, or ownership of, our airwaves. They serve at the PUBLIC'S PLEASURE. At least theoretically. We all know what the reality is, and how putrid and corrupt the use of our airwaves has become--with war profiteering corporate news monopolies owning all media, and skewing all political discussion far to the right. But it is the same legal situation in Venezuela. RCTV has NO RIGHT to use Venezuela's airwaves, and can be denied a license to do so--and they most certainly have provided adequate provocation for pulling their license. Notice, however, that Chavez has NOT shut them down! --which I think any democratic government would have had a right to do, considering their complicity in the violent overthrow of the government. He called for their license to be denied, the next time it came up for renewal. How dictatorial is that?

I would also like to point out that Chavez was just re-elected with 61% of the vote, in highly monitored elections. He is therefore a LEGITIMATE spokesman for the views of the majority, when it comes to PUBLIC licensing of the PUBLIC airwaves. If we had a similar popular leftist as president, and he called for not renewing the licenses of war profiteering corporate news monopolies in this country, I would likely be for it, although I think that busting up their news monopolies--busting them down to one station each, if need be--might be sufficient to introduce competition and a full range of news slants and opinion. This is not an anti-free speech stance. This is COMMON SENSE. It is also very PRO-free speech, in that licensing should be used to encourage variety. It is currently used to encourage MONOPOLY--and monopolies repress free speech. (Ask almost any reporter, over a beer sometime.)

I have often said that anyone can become a dictator. And someone with Chavez's immense popularity in Venezuela, and, indeed, throughout Latin America, must surely be tempted by it. But I have seen zero evidence that he tends that way, or that the Venezuelan people would put up with it, if he did. And that brings me to my final point. It is an insult to the people of Venezuela, and to all of the bright and intelligent people in the Chavez government, to assert that they would become sheep to his tyranny. They have fought too hard for their Constitution, and overcome too many obstacles to democratic government--including one vile plot after another, hatched in Washington DC--to give themselves over to a dictator. And it is the foulest Bushite propaganda to shove them aside, as if they don't count, and assert that Chavez could somehow "take over" their country. It is no fault of theirs that the opposition in Venezuela are such assholes, and have not provided any reasonable criticism of the Chavez government, but rather have involved themselves in nefarious plots. Luckily, the guy who ran against Chavez this last time disavowed those plots and apologized for them--and pledged to provide a responsible opposition. I was very glad to see it. Chavez NEEDS criticism, but not of the kind that threatens violent coups if they can't get their way democratically.

One more thought: Chavez is operating in a larger Latin American context, in similar spirit to the other new leftist leaders--Evo Morales in Bolivia, Rafael Correa (just elected) in Ecuador, Lulu in Brazil, Kirchner in Argentina, and others. He is not alone in his views of past US-backed fascist dictators, or the measures needed to achieve South American self-determination. And all of these governments are democratic. Democracy is the new way in Latin America. Dictatorships--and the armed revolutions that they inspired--are the old way. Chavez has no reason whatever to go the way of tyranny, and he has much peer pressure--as well as personal history--to remain pledged to constitutional democracy. I think, in the case of this BBC report--and its Bush State Department echo chamber--that we are just not used to hearing what a free people in a democratic country can actually do to corporate fascists who abuse their license to use a public airwave. We can pull it--and give that license to someone who serves the public good! Think about THAT, if you haven't before. And, as a matter of fact, ALL corporations operate at our will--they are all chartered by various states in the U.S. We can pull their charters, if we decide that their activities are not in the public interest.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. "Poll: Venezuelans Have Highest Regard for Their Democracy"
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2179

Read what Venezuelans think. It's very illuminating. www.venezuelanalysis.com is a good anti-dote to the crap spewed by our corporate new monoplies (including, on occasion, the BBC, which is under great pressure from the Blairite warmongers and corporatists to kiss their asses).
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #72
82. Exactly!! and here's the VIDEO CLIP SHOWING GOLPISTAS THANKING RCTV & VENEVISION
Move the slider to 43:16 to see one of the Golpistas (coupmakers) thanking RCTV and Venevision. Better yet, if folks want to know the TRUTH about what happened in the failed coup, watch the entire documentary.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=583239054568980...

Other highlights, move slider:

2:47--MSM in the US
26:00--Venezuelan media before the coup
26:55--Golpistas in Washington DC
32:00--Snipers on rooftops shooting people in crowd
35:00--Generals on TV calling for a coup
39:00--Chavez refuses to resign
43:16--Golpistas thank RCTV and Venevision
46:37--Dictator for a Day, Pedro Carmona, dissolving the National Assembly, Supreme Court, Attny General, and basically the entire government
48:33--Citizens shot, arrested, killed
49:10--US government officially BLAMES Chavez
53:00--1 million people at palace demanding Chavez return
54:57--Dictator for Day and the generals flee
55:20--Presidential guard retake palace
58:30--Chavez legitimate government restored
1:00--VP demands that Chavez life be preserved
1:00:03--Golpista military high command throws in the towel
1:03:56--On the island where Chavez is held, military calls about a US plane that just landed there
1:04:09--VP is sworn in to restore constitutionality
1:07:04--Chavez is returned to Miraflores Palace
1:07:31--Chavez addresses the nation on state TV and asks for calm





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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #72
121. Allow me to expound on this...
I feel this topic is ripe for the Democratic Party. When the FCC was created it was meant to regulate the public airwaves and licensed the airwaves as a public service just as you say.

And since the 1960s at least that Public service has been sold down the river. (Clinton didn't do us any favors with his media consolidation "triumph" either). The issue has been clouded by a debate that supposedly puts my right to hear 4 letter words above my right to a quality product that is the result of competition and/or public service. The current cable service is media slavery at best. In my neighborhood (and I'm guessing in yours too) I only have one choice for cable. That's it. They sold me the shaft when they said the benefits of cable were that I would pay and not have to sit through advertising. The shaft. There's more advertising on cable than on network television, and even though I get C-Span, I have to PAY for the other C-Span services??? In my book, if the FCC had been doing it's job, it would have been the job of the cable networks to provide CSPAN 1-8 for every household in the nation free of charge. I should have a direct C-Span feed from Orrin Hatch's bathroom so I can watch him piss on our freedoms. Of course that's hyperbole, but damnit, since when do Cable networks get to do whatever the hell they want to with our services when its hard enough to watch debates or follow candidates, or participate in government?!!? That Public Television and Radio get most of their funds from "viewers like you" should be a given... as in it should be funneled with the cash that my tax dollars bring in.

I don't know about you, but I'm bored to tears with the discussions about the 7 words you can't say on television. How about the fact that I'm still paying through my nose for a service that should have become a public utility years ago. Sick and tired of it. If they are going to make so much money on advertising than they should have to pay for it, not me and I can't wait to see a democrat that will run on a populist issue like this.

Can I get a What, What!?!?!?

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Placebo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
73. Chavez may be the Left's favourite revolutionary, BUT...
that doesn't change the fact that he still promotes his dictator-like vision which doesn't leave room for much diversity in opinion.
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #73
99. He let RCTV exist for five years after it supported the coup against him.
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 11:15 AM by Unvanguard
That sounds like an almost suicidal endorsement of diversity of opinion.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
77. It's a pleasure to see the remarks from DU'ers who are actually doing research
on this subject, rather than tossing bombs out like misleading articles and walking away, and not contributing any further information to lead to a deepening awareness, or rather than offering ill-informed, idiotic right-wing comments based on right-wing deliberate misinformation.

It's a real breath of exhilarating fresh air every time someone takes the time to give informed comment, absolutely nothing like it!

More on this poor, down-trodden, abused "journalistic" brotherhood in Venezuela, an article written 4 months after the coup:
How Hate Media Incited The Coup Against President Chvez

Venezuelas press power

Never in Latin American history has the media been so directly involved in a political coup. Venezuelas hate media controls 95% of the airwaves and has a near-monopoly over newsprint, and it played a major part in the failed attempt to overthrow the president, Hugo Chvez, in April. Although tensions in the country could easily spill into civil war, the media is still directly encouraging dissident elements to overthrow the democratically elected president - if necessary by force.

by Maurice Lemoine


08/11/02 "Le Monde diplomatique" -- We had a deadly weapon: the media. And now that I have the opportunity, let me congratulate you." In Caracas, on 11 April 2002, just a few hours before the temporary overthrow of Venezuelas president, Hugo Chvez, Vice-Admiral Victor Ramrez Prez congratulated journalist Ibyiste Pacheco live on Venevision television. Twenty minutes earlier, when Pacheco had begun to interview a group of rebel officers, she could not resist admitting, conspiratorially, that she had long had a special relationship with them.

At the same time, in a live interview from Madrid, another journalist, Patricia Poleo, also seemed well informed about the likely future development of "spontaneous events". She announced on the Spanish channel TVE: "I believe the next president is going to be Pedro Carmona." Chvez, holed up in the presidential palace, was still refusing to step down.

After Chvez came to power in 1998, the five main privately owned channels - Venevisin, Radio Caracas Televisin (RCTV), Globovisin and CMT - and nine of the 10 major national newspapers, including El Universal, El Nacional, Tal Cual, El Impulso, El Nuevo Pas, and El Mundo, have taken over the role of the traditional political parties, which were damaged by the presidents electoral victories. Their monopoly on information has put them in a strong position. They give the opposition support, only rarely reporting government statements and never mentioning its large majority, despite that majoritys confirmation at the ballot box. They have always described the working class districts as a red zone inhabited by dangerous classes of ignorant people and delinquents. No doubt considering them unphotogenic, they ignore working class leaders and organisations.

Their investigations, interviews and commentaries all pursue the same objective: to undermine the legitimacy of the government and to destroy the presidents popular support. "In aesthetic terms, this revolutionary government is a cesspit," was the delicate phrase used by the evening paper Tal Cual. Its editor, Teodoro Petkoff, is a keen opponent of Chvez. Petkoff is a former Marxist guerrilla who became a neo-liberal and a pro-privatisation minister in the government of rightwing president Rafael Caldera. The Chvez government is not, of course, above criticism. It makes mistakes, and the civilian and military personnel who surround it are tainted by corruption. But the government was democratically elected and still has the backing of the majority. It can also be credited with successes, nationally and internationally.
(snip/...)
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:rfkySFDr6CEJ:www.i...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Not to ignore the nasty jobs pulled off by the print journalists. Please note this pathetic attempt to attach a violent signature to the people's choice, Hugo Chavez:



Whoops! Dirty tricks! The real photo was actually this one:



Guns & Roses in Caracas, Chavez at gunpoint

Monday, Sep 29, 2003
By: Lucila Gallino and Ralph Niemeyer

An episode worthy a Venezuelan soap opera, like the one that happened last week in the Venezuelan media, can explain once again the passions and the hatred that President Hugo Chvez and his government generate not only in Venezuela but also in the rest of the world. Would it be why Chavez is -for many- the Latin American black sheep?

Many things happen in Caracas every day. In this city where the violence is tolerated, the media are the daily protagonists of a mediatic explosion that shakes the nation.

On Friday September 26, the newspaper Tal Cual ("As such"), opponent of the Government, was sent to the streets with an issue that became the scandal of the week. On the cover of the paper, President Chvez is shown holding a 9mm caliber gun on the left hand. The publication of this high impact photo is the full responsibility of the Editor of the paper, who will have to appear before the Law for falsification of information.

The "little retouch" that was done to the original photo is not as simple as changing an image for another one. In this case, a gun was digitally put in place of a red rose that had been given to the President during the First Women World Forum underway in Caracas. Chavez gave a speech at the Forum in which 190 women from 27 countries participated in support of Venezuelas revolutionary process.

The retouching of this photomontage exceeds all boundaries of respect. On the background of the scene, there was a poster with the logo of the Forum. The logo in the altered photo was erased in order to put the photo out of context.

The original photo was taken by Feliciano Sequera, a photographer of the Miraflores Presidential Palace in the morning of September 24, - two days before the publication of the controversial Tal Cual issue- during President Chavezs opening speech of the Women World Forum. There, he addressed the feminine audience in a very particular style for a President, with the tender and sweet familiar tone of a dear relative.

According to their civil employees, Chvez devours all type of books during his free time; that was demonstrated in his speech describing the most outstanding women of the history of Venezuela, in which he mentioned in repeated occasions Manuela Senz, Simon Bolivars loving and political companion. His speech inspired tones of elation from the audience, very common of the Latin. He spoke of about a complicated political scenario, but did not make any incitation to violence.
(snip)

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1025
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gorbal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
80. I don't think I have ever learned so much in one thread.
Just when I thought the anti-chavez crowd were beginning to bear some weight, I come on to this thread and learn how easy it is to be swayed by the lies of right wing think tanks. This story was even taken up by a so-called "Legimate"news source".
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. Yep, you wouldn't have expected that from them, at one time! n/t
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. Be sure to watch the video about the coup. It is a real eye opener...
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
88. Checking Out Chavezs Venezuela
<clips>

Last Spring I noticed that articles about Venezuela and its president, Hugo Chavez, began to appear more and more in the media. At first they were almost all negative, from attacks in the New York Review of Books, to snide comments in the New York Times.

Then there were the TV snippets showing Fidel Castro and President Chavez, along with condemnations from various parts of the Bush administration. Soon I saw Venezuelan solidarity groups being formed and films such as The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (about the attempted coup of President Chavez).

It became obvious that something special was happening down there. So when I learned about a Global Reality tour that would be coinciding with the presidential election I decided to go and see for myself.

What I found was

1. Overwhelming support by the people of Venezuela for Pres. Chavez and his ideas,

2. A significant number of successful programs promoting help for the poor and dispossessed in both Venezuela and throughout Latin America, and

3. The on-again, off-again efforts of the U.S. government to destablize the success of 1 and 2.

President Chavez was re-elected with over 60 percent of the vote. The weekend before, I attended a rally of his supporters that numbered over one million. Many had traveled hours from all parts of the country.

On election day, with a Spanish translator, I interviewed about 25 people who had just cast their ballots. The most popular reason they voted was to endorse the various Mission programs set up by the government. (These have no connection to the Spanish missions established in the U.S.).

These programs focus on education, especially literacy, high school graduation, improved health centers, and job creation. Because one of our tour members suffered severe back pains, we were able to witness first-hand the medical services, Totally free, these Cuban staffed clinics are spreading throughout the country. Supported by the exchange of oil to Cuba, they supply a needed solution to areas previously experiencing little or no healthcare.

http://www.berkeleydaily.org/text/article.cfm?issue=12-...
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #88
94. Tremendous info. Who would have guessed you can recycle oil based
products into shoe soles. Jeez. I doubt we're ever going to read material like this through corporate media sources!

Last paragraph is very important:
However, with so many successful and popular initiatives in Venezuela, and support for other progressive reforms in other Latin America countries, it's obvious that further destabilizing efforts by the U.S. government will not disappear. In the meantime I encourage everyone to learn more about what is happening in the Bolivarian Revolution.
(snip/)
Very glad to see read this. Thanks.
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #88
126. Let's not forget Citgo's support of American families in peril...
Edited on Sun Dec-31-06 05:02 AM by heliarc
Venezuela owned Citgo again this winter is providing low cost heating oil for homeowners in the northeast. Without it families confronting the winters without adequate funds to supply their homes with warmth may die.

Call it a political ploy to jab Washington all you like. That sounds like real populism, and a politics for the people to me.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week922/cover...
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
89. I guess they won't be helping to overthrow the government again
But remember, Chavez is the villian here. It is only a free press if the media giants can monopolize coverage and overthrow a democratically elected government, or "saving the people from their own stupidy" to paraphrase Kissinger.
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
92. The Chavez haters need to read this...
If the writer of the VCrisis site can come to his senses, so can they.

http://vcrisis.com /

VCrisis No More

Having being in my country for nearly 4 months now has given me much time to ponder about the utility of continuing with the crusade that I once embarked upon, that of reporting Venezuelas crisis. When I started back in October 2002 an almost physical need to tell our side of the story prompted me to launch this site, learn to write in English, inform, counteract with facts other versions, lobby, investigate and create an outlet where I could vent the anger caused by the misinformation spread around about Venezuela. Much writing I did and many, many, many hours were spent on this endeavour. My perception about the situation has changed though and the change has come about by being much closer to the countrys reality. Our side of the story is an empty concept nowadays, it no longer applies. To begin with theres no crisis here. People of all walks of life are on a spending spree that would make Londoners jealous, restaurants are full so are posh hotels. Although foreign investment is down considerably the inflated oil prices and associated income is of such a scale that the country is reliving the oil bonanza of the 70ies, when Venezuelans used to go to Miami to do their grocery shopping. Private airports are chock full of new jets, car sales continue on the rise, public employees have received an inordinate amount of Christmas bonuses that, allow me to tell you, it does show everywhere.

So I keep asking myself, what crisis? Many opposition folks, for all their bitching, lead a life that certainly is above regular European middle class standards, surely way above mine. Take my uncle for instance. The other day I went visiting and as conversation progressed the work topic came. Surprisingly he said that he had never had so much work in his life. Then I asked about surgery he had had in the back and after explaining the whole problem he said and the best of it? It didnt cost me a dime, new platinum plates, operation and the rest of it were covered by the government. Amazed I said then why in hell are you complaining about Chavez? You ungrateful bastard! In short such nonsensical behaviour is characteristic of unhinged opposition people, people who believe that the world ends tomorrow, that Chavez will cubanize Venezuela, that kids will start being indoctrinated even those in private schools, that communism is upon Venezuela, mind you so much bullshit that is very hard to keep a straight face hearing such arguments. Chavez may have grand plans for Venezuela but his greatest and insurmountable obstacle is the utterly capitalistic nature of Venezuelans, young and old, rich and poor even more. Venezuelans in general are shallow, materialistic, snobbish, but man how they love the freedom to do whatever they want at any given time. If someone is thinking that the new chavista establishment will go quiet about their kids now regulars at very expensive bilingual private schools- being fed some socialist intellectual potpourri, well think again for those who dressed in red revolutionary garments get off $30 million Gulfstream jets have a different idea about how the revolutionary offsprings should be educated. For example the very first thing that invaders of private land do when they manage to seize a parcel is put up a sign that reads do not trespass, private property. Can anyone foresee Chavez succeeding in his plan of imposing the premise of collective property as alleged by the opposition? That would mean he would have to reengineer all Venezuelans and believe you me he wont be able to pull that one, regardless of how much money he throws around or how hard he tries should that be his real intention.

Thats part of the reality I have seen thus far. Another is the sheer state of anarchy in Caracas, a new feature that I had not seen before. Bikers in Caracas (locally known as motorizados) block traffic now in main avenues and even in highways, in order to exert revolutionary justice before unperturbed police officers or to mourn dead colleagues. No one does anything, no one dares say anything while the police and other law enforcement forces look the other way. Comandante Lina Ron, tellingly a blond-dyed revolutionary woman, has got many a high ranking chavista scared. She commands civil militias and bikers in downtown Caracas that answer only to her wishes and effectively controls el centro. Again no one dares reminding the woman about rule of law and other rather boring concepts. But all in all Caraqueos seem to be coping rather well, they have adapted to the new reality and are living like theres no tomorrow. In fact the valley in which Caracas is located ought to be renamed South Americas Silicon Valley in allusion to the many women that have had a boob job. Ruben Blades song Ella era una chica plastica comes to mind.

I once felt that my dignity was being trampled upon. I once believed that by exposing the vices and double discourse of chavismo I was doing my bit for my country. No more. Most of my countrymen, on both sides of the divide, think otherwise and behave accordingly. Chavismo is but a manifestation of Venezolanismo and its time has come. The country has changed for good, those who were in the back of the list are now in power and with a fresh mandate. Whatever comes after depends on them, in the meanwhile many folks around are having the time of their lives.

As in the picture above I have left a cyber trail that, like in the sand, will disappear almost instantly in this age of instant gratification and virtual personalities. But also like in the picture the future, as the horizon, looks bright and the sun is shining upon my face. The little adventure nearly cost me my marriage and robbed my daughters of their dad for far too long a time. It has been a gratifying experience that provided the opportunity of doing extraordinary things and meeting extraordinary people around the world and to all of them and to my readers my deepest gratefulness, respect and admiration. If financial conditions permit perhaps I will allow myself to devote some time to write a book about this years presidential campaign and my experiences in this 4 month long journey of reencounter with my country during which I rediscovered Venezuela, the land of grace.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #92
95. What the hey! Never would have believed he'd write something like this
in a million years. It's a true MIRACLE! He's been healed!





You've given us something to watch, for future developements. This is completely unexpected. Thank you.
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antiimperialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #95
111. Wasn't he a right-wing nutjob?
180 degree change.
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #111
116. You got that right... you gotta wonder what's up with that. IMHO n/t
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #92
104. "Venezuela the land of grace"...
For the Chavez haters:

...I once felt that my dignity was being trampled upon. I once believed that by exposing the vices and double discourse of chavismo I was doing my bit for my country. No more. Most of my countrymen, on both sides of the divide, think otherwise and behave accordingly. Chavismo is but a manifestation of Venezolanismo and its time has come. The country has changed for good, those who were in the back of the list are now in power and with a fresh mandate. Whatever comes after depends on them, in the meanwhile many folks around are having the time of their lives.

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antiimperialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
96. Bush wanted to bomb Al Jazeera
for "inciting violence", even though it is not this wasn't even true.
Let's not complain about a coupist station being shut down.
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #96
103. Bush DID bomb Aljazeera... in Afghanistan--Kabul if I remember.. n/t
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #103
127. And in Baghdad
"In April 2003, an Al Jazeera journalist died when its Baghdad office was struck during a US bombing campaign. In November 2001, Al Jazeera's office in Kabul, Afghanistan, was destroyed by a US missile, although no staff were in the office at the time. US officials said they believed the target was a "terrorist" site and did not know it was Al Jazeera's office."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1123/dailyUpdate.html
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
98. Good for him. Supporting reactionary attacks upon democracy
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 11:12 AM by Unvanguard
is unacceptable.

Any television station in the US that advocated a coup against the President would be shut down much earlier than five years afterward.
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govegan Donating Member (661 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
100. Perhaps Mr. Chavez understands the concept of free speech
and press freedom in regards to responsibility and accountability.

Poll: Venezuelans Have Highest Regard for Their Democracy

Link: http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2179

The Latinobarometro report contradicted the common perception that Latin America was heading towards more authoritarian regimes with the recent political shift towards the left. It is clear that there is no authoritarian regression , which is demonstrated by the fact that 14 presidents were substituted, for various reasons and due to popular pressure prior to the end of their mandate and within the valid legal framework in each of the countries, said the report.

According to Latinobarometro, An important part of the errors of perception about the evolution and development of the region are produced by the false expectations that international elites have about what the region should be doing.





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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #100
105. Satisfaction with Venezuela since Chavez became pres: 57% up from 32% in 8 years...
Great article thanks for posting :hi:

For Venezuela, the percentage of citizens surveyed who indicated satisfaction increased more since 1998, the year Chavez was elected, than any other country. The percentage expressing satisfaction increased from 32% to 57% in those eight years.

In terms of political participation, Venezuelans indicate that they are more politically active than the citizens of any other surveyed country. Venezuelans have the highest percentage of citizens that say they discuss politics regularly (47%, average is 26%), who say that they try to convince others on political matters (32%, average is 16%), who participate in demonstrations (26%, average is 12%), and who say they are active in a political party (25%, average is 9%).

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rollopollo Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #105
122. Satisfaction will only go "up"
As people who dissent have their voices stifled.

I'm still trying to get my head around this. In order to challenge the existing power structure, you sometimes have to hit below the belt. On the other hand, get lost in this power struggle and curbing of freedom and the principles you once commandeered power for become an afterthought.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #122
137. Double plus good
you are correct. The irony is that dino juice is paying for the little utopia. Any shift and bad news for the guy in the red shirt.
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Bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
130. aaahhhh is true colours finally show
typical land reformist of the 70s....viva la revolucion agraria.. idiots
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
134. Hands Off Venezuela-Madison Kicks off 2007
Hands Off Venezuela-Madison Kicks off 2007
Venezuela Discussion Series With a Last Election Analysis.
MADISON, WISCONSIN, Dec. 28, 2006

(PRLEAP.COM) Madison, WI After the elections in Venezuela, last December 3rd, Hugo Chavez has declared major changes at the state level as his intentions to create a new party: Socialist United Party. Hands off Venezuela (HOV) will discuss in deep the new balance in Venezuela after the elections. The event will take place on January 6th at the Escape Java Joint from 4PM. The event under the title of Quarterly Report: Venezuela after the Elections is part of a series of discussions about Venezuela in 2007 every first Saturday at the Escape.

The first quarterly report will address what the election means for the future of the Bolivarian Revolution in Venezuela, for the budding revolutionary movements in Latin America, and will distill the lessons that Venezuela offers U.S. activists in building a strong movement for social change here at home. Every first Saturday HOV will discuss different topics on Venezuela like the role of the media, co-managed factories, and quarterly reports.

About Hands off Venezuela
HOV is a world wide campaign that operates in over 30 countries. HOV supports and defends the Bolivarian Revolution, rejects the interventionist policies of the U.S. government, and supports the right of self determination for the Venezuelan people. The local charter was formed in January of 2006, and has coordinated activities with local labor, immigrant, and student groups. HOV Madison meets on the first and third Saturday of every month at Escape Java Joint.
(snip/...)

http://www.prleap.com/pr/60176/
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
138. Venezuelan economy soars 10.3 percent of GDP
It has to be KILLING this extreme opposition newspaper to have to run this information!

Venezuelan economy soars 10.3 percent of GDP
December 27th

Aladi forecasts 7 percent growth for Venezuela
The Latin American Integration Association (Aladi) forecast for Venezuela a growth higher than 7 percent in 2006 in a report entitled "An outlook for the international economy."

The report noted that countries such as Argentina, Cuba, Peru and Uruguay will show a similar behavior, with an expected growth of 4-6 percent, as quoted by official news agency Agencia Bolivariana de Noticias (ABN).

Aladi Secretary-General Didier Opertti explained that the international scenario boosted the Latin American region, but added that in 2007 the external impact on the region will be less favorable than in 2006.

The report estimates that regional economies will improve, including a 4.3 -percent growth in all of Aladi member states. Global exports from the hemisphere in 2006 will account for USD 630 billion, or 5.2 percent of the world trade.
(snip/)

http://english.eluniversal.com/2006/12/29/en_eco_art_29...
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #138
139. OIL exports to the Evil Empire
Edited on Sun Dec-31-06 02:02 PM by Pavulon
are the source of that income. A quick trip to wikipedia shows the correlation of oil price/output to gdp. Other than dino juice Venezuela makes no significant sales that register as export. Just like the saudis.

I think it is funny the ultra left socialist group tends to ignore the source of the little revolution is CITGO. Oil drops back for any reason, house of cards falls.

spelling
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #139
140. Venezuela has relied on oil for a very LONG time, hasn't it? The difference now is that
far more of the profit is being used to bring vital, life-saving, life-sustaining help to the helpless.

Instead of the continued domination by the oligarchy, they have a "revolution" which started well before Hugo Chavez was elected. It may have actually started when previous President ( impeached and jailed for corruption and embezzlement) Carlos Andres Perez, Bush family friend, ordered government troops to fire into crowds of protesting Caracas citizens who poured into the streets when he doubled the cost of their transportation, a measure they simply couldn't afford. The cost in lives was over 3,000.

If you don't know this, you need to take some time out from your posting and start doing your homework. As I have mentioned, it's stupid to continue scribbling lies here.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #140
145. The lie you just confirmed?
note you did not post a real source either. Every real source I read says they encouraged strikes. Just like people came on fox and talked bullshit about the french. So there was a marked reduction in purchase in french wine. Civil unrest, criminal no.

wiki has the charts that show positive correlation in oil cost and output and gdp increase. The revolution is not from the soviet dollar now but our own. I find it entertaining. He has no other choice except to sell oil to the US. By far his largest customer.

I have been to caracas, sao paulo(yes i know it is in Brazil, and others with my job. They had poverty in 99 and still have it.

History is not the issue here. Seizure of power is. Control the media and you control the population.

The guy in the red shirt wants control, pretty easy to handicap that one.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #145
147. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #145
160. The difference between pre-Chavez poverty and poverty today,
is that nowadays the poor in Venezuela have plenty food, eduction and healthcare where they had very little if anything of that before Chavez came to power. By that measure the poor in the US are poorer than the poor in Venezuela.

So much for "They had poverty in 99 and still have it." Yes they still have poverty, but much less so. I think it requires a certain bias to make it seem as though that does not matter.


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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #160
168. True. No country with problems which took so long through decades of oligarchy rule
can possibly expected to be free of those results within a few years. My God. Who could be that stupid?

Every report we read from a traveler there who has any actual knowledge of what is happening during the age of transformation ALWAYS has news which confirms what we've already heard: amazing steps forward, breakthroughs in almost every conceivable aspect of life for the poor, and formerly hopeless.

New oil company opening in Venezuela:
Chile ENAP to operate in Venezuela

Chilean state oil firm ENAP expects to start oil exploration and production businesses in Venezuela in the middle term to strengthen its presence in the region's largest markets, industry sources said on Tuesday.

ENAP -with operations in Argentina, Ecuador and Peru- over the last year has been pondering the possibility to expand businesses in Venezuela, and has plans to open a heavy-crude oil refinery in the country, said ENAP director general Enrique Dvila a few days ago.

In mid-2006, senior officials with Venezuelan state oil giant Pdvsa visited Chile to be briefed on ENAP operations and businesses, and met with Chilean energy authorities, the sources claimed.

ENAP intends to enter into a partnership with Pdvsa -and likely with foreign parties too- to engage in exploration and exploitation of heavy-crude oil in Orinoco oil belt, Reuters said.
(snip/...)
http://english.eluniversal.com/2007/01/02/en_eco_art_02...
Opposition newspaper
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #139
148. CITGO main source of Venezuela income?? BWAHAHAHAHAHA
Wikipedia?? Are you in high school?--no offense to those who are, but you have no clue what you're talking about. Here's some credible information for you. Read carefully. I'll type slowly so you can follow along.

CITGO funds the Venezuela economy?? :rofl: The main source of OIL income in Venezuela is PDVSA, CITGO is a very small part of PDVSA. If you knew anything about Venezuela, you would never make that stupid mistake.

According to the CIA, government revenue also has been bolstered by increased tax collection, which has surpassed its 2005 collection goal by almost 50%. Tax revenue is the primary source of non-oil revenue, which accounts for 53% of the 2006 budget.

<clips>

Report: Venezuela's Citgo plans no further refinery sales in 2007

...Citgo's profits increased 30 percent in 2006 and it will pay parent company Petroleos de Venezuela SA, or PDVSA, $800 million in dividends this year, up from $750 million in 2005, Rodriguez said.

Rodriguez also said net revenue is expected to reach $1.5 billion by the end of 2006.

On Citgo's program that offers discounted heating oil to low-income U.S. households, Rodriguez said in 2006 the company supplied 378 million liters of fuel at a 40 percent discount, which has benefited 2.2 million Americans in 16 states.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/16317047.htm






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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #148
150. Cia world foacbook and
foreign policy magazine recognize Venezuela is a petro state. If your car ran on beer piss they would be dirt poor, like their neighbor bolivia.


Definition Field Listing
Venezuela continues to be highly dependent on the petroleum sector, accounting for roughly one-third of GDP, around 80% of export earnings...

Do you own anything from Venezuela. Other than art i bought there I cant thonk of one thing on the world market they make that is consumed.


I could be in elementary school and figure this one out. Citgo sells their shit here. Pretty simple. Without gas sales to us, the empire he rants about, they are screwed. When it dips the army will put him on his knees and shoot him in the head. I am sure he will not retire and draw a pension.

red shirt, seizure of foreign assets, socialist blather, consolidation of power. walking like a duck.

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #150
161. There's no question Venezuela is a 'petro state'
the disagreement is whether most of the oil revenues are generated by CITGO gas stations or by state oil company PDVSA. Venezuela sells a lot of oil that's not refined into gas for cars.

If the CIA fact book doesn't factor in PDVSA, the CIA has got it wrong.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #161
167. My point
if gas drops so does this social revolution. All the money to pay for the socialist policy is from the top purchaser of their product.

The us.

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #167
169. My point is that Ven. govt income is more dependent on oil sales
than on gas sales.

And it doesn't look like demand for either is going to drop significantly in the foreseeable future.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
146. Colombian FM forced to retract bogus charge against Chavez
(from opposition newspaper El Universal)

Colombian Minister concedes he made wrong remarks about Venezuela

~snip~
Ecuadorian FM: Caracas played no role in crisis with Colombia
Ecuador's designated Foreign Minister, Mara Fernanda Espinosa, said that her country would make its best effort to solve the diplomatic crisis stemmed from Colombia's decision to resume antri-drug fumigation on the Ecuadorian-Colombian border, and reiterated that Venezuela has played no role in the binational impasse.

"We will strive to talk to the Colombia n Government. Obviously, the international tools are available, but we hope we can use first all the diplomatic means," Espinosa said during an interview with the Colombia media, DPA reported.

Espinosa added that the meeting between Ecuadorian President-elect Rafael Correa and Venezuelan President Hugo Chvez did not influence on Correa's decision to suspend his scheduled visit to Colombia.

"I attended the bilateral meeting between President Chvez and President-elect Correa and I can certify that Colombia was not an item in the agenda. This topic was not discussed and there was no suggestion from President Chvez in this connection," Espinosa added.

Thursday 28th

Colombian Minister concedes he made wrong remarks about Venezuela
Colombian Minister of the Interior and Justice Carlos Holgun Sardi Thursday conceded he made a mistake "to open my mouth," Efe reported.

Holgun told reporters that it was a "mistake" last week to suggest that Ecuadorian president-elect Rafael Correa cancelled his visit to Bogot on December 22nd following a meeting with Venezuelan ruler Hugo Chvez.
(snip/...)

http://english.eluniversal.com/2006/12/29/en_pol_art_29...



Bush puppet Uribe's Interior & Justice Minister Carlos Holgun Sardi
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
159. Shut down the "media" of the elites?
The same media that incited the rightists to kidnap him and stage a coup that ousted him???
Him, the democratically elected leader of the people of that country...

huh?

Can we do that to our "media" too?
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