Breaking CNN: Saudis threaten to support Sunni insurgency...

[Fridays Child]

...if America withdraws from Iraq.

No link yet but, per Anderson Cooper, the New York Times had this story first, so I'll go look for an article.

Could this have something to do with the ambassador's resignation? Or Dick Cheney's trip?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Between Iraq and a hard place, aren't we...?

[alittlelark]

61. Between Saudi Arabian Oil and a Shiite Hole.....

And the US w/ no brains exposed. Only dirty tissue flapping in the wind. We are soooooo Shiasuniscrewed.

[davekriss]

78. Think Bush knows the difference...

...between the Shia and the Sunni now? Naw, it's Bush we're talking about, Mr. vacuous-between-the-eyes-guy. This little raging Oedipus is still too busy shadow-boxing pre-verbal memories of stern looks from his poppy-Lais.

[Bassic]

79. Don't you mean

Shiasuniscrewn? :D

[humbled_opinion]

141. No Don't you really mean...

Bushitesunniscrewed... or possibly

Riceasunnibushiitecheneykurdturded

hmmmm

[Bassic]

167. Yeah, they're all good, but if we're talking about Freepers

"screwn" has got to be in there somewhere :D

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. The Saudis are getting a little freaked out

They don't trust BushCo to take care of their 'interests' any more.

[Fridays Child]

3. On the other hand, if this is cover for Bush, I hope he gets...

...excoriated for letting Saudi Arabia push him around.

[Miss Chybil]

4. Put it this way, the trip and the resignation had everything to do with

this.

[WindRavenX]

5. lol, this entire world has turned into a goddamn Tom Clancy novel

jesus christ on a pogo stick.

[Poll_Blind]

9. So true. SO true. Except in the end of Tom Clancy novels we...

...usually win...

PB

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. and we're the good guys.

[shadowknows69]

106. But something large usually blows up in the meantime.

I don't want to see how this story ends.

[CoffeeCat]

50. That's exactly what I was thinking...

Seriously...can you imagine the power-mongering, threats, back-door deals, screaming
matches and jockeying for position that goes on with these people?

It really like some bad movie--or as you said--a Tom Clancy novel.

These people are playing games on a grand scale. We are ants to them.

They're currently behind closed doors--developing slogans and soundbytes in order to
manage the fallout from their latest plots.

It's so much more perverse and pathetic than we'll ever know...and we're more
inconsequential than we care to know.

[ForPeace]

72. I was reading a Tom Clancy novel

on 9/11. I got that feeling then - that the real world seemed as fictional as the novel I was reading. It still does.

[Maraya1969]

137. Hi ForPeace! Welcome to DU!

:pals:

[Tight_rope]

90. You mean Jesus Christ on 2 popsicle sticks!

[ClintonTyree]

107. Clancy just loves Republicans....

they're his kind of people. I imagine he's one of the 30% who thinks Bush is still doing a great job. :eyes: I stopped reading Clancy's books a long time ago when he started interjecting his political views into his books. It does sound like one of his scenarios though, perhaps a "Red Storm Rising" type. Get the U.S. fighting on several different fronts and then ALMOST kick our asses. Everything always goes our way in Clancy novels. I don't think he bargained for a brain damaged chimp being President of The United States though so the ending might be somewhat different. :scared:

[Skittles]

123. you are correct, WindRavenX

Christ on a cracker, we be f***ed.

[rocktivity]

6. And if the U.S. stays?

A few decades worth of oil profiteering status quo?

And by the way, what are the Saudi's waiting on? Why don't they come and help the Saudi's now?

:shrug:
rocknation

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. So the U.S. in order to appease their Saudi masters...

decide to assassinate or attempt to assassinate Moqtada al Sadr. Resulting in his martyrdom, and even more total chaos in Iraq.

Hmm.

Yup, it's certainly why the ambassador resigned.

I wonder how much longer the Saudi prince plans on sticking around.

[rodeodance]

8. um... gets more interesting as time goes by.

[babylonsister]

10. Recommend. Very newsworthy and I'll wager that's precisely why

the ambassador resigned and fled so fast.

[Fridays Child]

15. Yep, with so many lives in the balance, this is some high stakes maneuvering...

...whether it's cover for Bush or an actual threat.

[babylonsister]

17. By cover, you mean the Saudi's threat could be his reasoning

for remaining in Iraq? That's blackmail, isn't it? When would this ever end? Not that I'd put anything past him ...

[Fridays Child]

23. Bush has said, on a number of occasions, that oil-rich countries want to...

...blackmail us. Let's see how he responds. I can't help feeling that we're being played. I mean, think about it. Nobody batted an eyelash when he didn't go after Saudi Arabia, in spite of the fact that 17 of the 19 hijackers were from there. If he says anything to the effect that we have to keep Saudi Arabia on our side (what the right wing will, no doubt, fail to identify as appeasement), then I smell a big, fat rat.

[RiverStone]

28. Yes, the tail is wagging the dog.

Being played alright, ya got it!

There is a connection between SA (oil rich) and USA (oil hungry). With BIG Oil in bed with BushCo and Cheney profiting from that connect...who knows what pawns are being moved about to keep the corrupt war machine rolling.

The lies will only continue. Yep, another novel by Tom is in the works - though this time truth IS stranger then fiction!

p.s. Is that logo a wave from the playa?

[Fridays Child]

36. Underneath the peace symbol?

That's a globe. Or, if you mean the avatar, that's the Secular Humanist logo. :)

[Lucky Luciano]

89. Funny, I thought your avatar was the Burning Man symbol nt

[babylonsister]

41. The whole thing stinks and I think puts * in an untenable situation.

But if we're being played, it's by the Saudis in cahoots w/this admin. :grr: I don't know if I should be frightened or angry.

[Fridays Child]

49. I'll be both! nt

[Supersedeas]

125. Dr. Rice....paging Dr. Rice...where oh where is the talented Sec. of State??

[MADem]

35. Unless Saud is sicker than we know....but the AC report is worrisome, isn't it?

They keep denying that he's ill, but then again, Turki ain't leaving for home until next month, so maybe they don't want to tip their hand and show any weakness on the home front at all:

http://www.salon.com/wire/ap/archive.html?wire=D8LVH74G2.html


The Saudi Embassy in Washington, where Prince Turki has been posted since September 2005, said he would leave for Saudi Arabia early next year to spend more time with his family.

A State Department official, also declining to be identified because of the sensitivity of the departure, said Prince Turki may be under consideration for a higher-ranked post in Riyadh.

His older brother, Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal, has had back problems. He has held the post since 1975.

But a retired official with knowledge of the situation said rumors that Prince Turki might succeed his brother were untrue....The ambassador met with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Monday, but spokesman Sean McCormack declined to provide details.

[babylonsister]

45. I don't understand what that has to do with issuing a threat

should the US leave Iraq. Sounds like blackmail to me.

[MADem]

51. It's "all in together" time. The House of Saud can't have a Sunni bloodbath in Iraq, they just

can't. But unless someone helps those guys, or they all decide to go the highly unlikely Peace/Love route, it will happen. And realistically, we are the Saudi Arabian army. It's the deal we made with them, all those years ago. It's why we don't pay six bucks a gallon for gas, like the Europeans do.

And you're right--it IS blackmail, on the one hand, and a bit of carrot and stick, on the other.

If the US refuses to stay, they'll fund the hell out of the Sunnis so that they can protect themselves with superior weaponry (and no doubt some quiet help from rent-an-Army, say, Syria, who are just sitting on their asses since getting out of Lebanon, really--and they don't have oil fields themselves, either...maybe Jordan will kick in a unit or two to sit in the rear with the gear, who knows?). Maybe they'll go mercenary/contractor to get the job done, like some of the guys who provided log support to Osama and the Northern Alliance all those years ago, but on a larger scale...and THAT will get interesting...

If the Iranians try to countermove by funding the Shi'a, the House of Saud'll cut the price of oil to the floor so the Iranians have to pump all day and night to make enough dough just to pay their PAYROLLS, which are bloated with do-nothing mullahs and morality policemen. They'll have no spare cash to incite riots or fund Shi'as.

Of course, how long can that go on...it will screw up a LOT of oil-based economies all round the world if the price of oil collapses, and it will hasten the day when we all have some serious worries.

If I were China, I'd be figuring out how to increase capacity of existing refineries and maybe building a shitload of storage tanks right about now. Buy low, sell high, after all! And they're the guys with the spare cash, sitting on a TON of US dollars.....

[babylonsister]

52. Now that's the bundle of cheer I was expecting.

:rofl: :scared: Should I laugh or shiver in terror? What a goddamn mess; we need 'the hook' for dimson, get him AWAY from the world stage.

[MADem]

56. Exactly--we don't know whether to laugh, cry or just go DAMN!!

We made this deal with the Saudis a loooong time ago, and I blame BushCo for not seeing this balltwisting move by them coming downstream. They AREN'T gonna abandon their own, and they are the Keepers of the Holy Places, and they sure as shit don't want the Shi'a to EVER get a hold of that job--it's an "ordained" duty (and a massive cash cow), in essence, to their minds.

Of course, he's the asshole who doesn't know a Sunni from a Sunny Delight, or a Shi'a from a shee-yat. And the sick thing is, neither do any of his idiotic political appointees. It's fucking INFURIATING, how these dipshits see the world. Ya just wanna scream in frustration at their rank stupidity.

Worst job in the government nowadays is being a civil servant or field/senior grade military officer holding down second chair on any of the Middle Eastern country desks and answering to the BushCo crew. It's gotta be like trying to teach physics to a three year old--a DUMB three year old, dealing with those appointees.

[redqueen]

126. don't they want unending war?

it seems to me the threat of this potential mess was expected and desired.

[MADem]

127. Honestly? No. BushCo was in this for the OIL. Make no mistake.

He wanted to be able to play his little puppet Iraqis AGAINST his old pals, the balltwisting Saudis. That's why the Saudis are being so short-tempered with him. He probably also was lying like a rug about progress to them. Once Bandar "Sunny Side of Life" Bush was gone, old Turki probably got some less biased intelligence from other sources outside BushCo.

The Saudis would love peace and prosperity in the region, with THEM as the shining beacon of light at the center, generous to a fault in aiding other nations, benevolently charitable to the weak, poor, old and sick, and looked to for their wisdom and probity. But that's a pipe dream. They see those whacko Shi'as (I am speaking from their perspective, mind you--I've no dog in this fight) as determined to gain hegemony over the region, and they've always had their eye on the Holy Places of Meccah and Medina. The Saudis, 'ordained' guardians that they are, can't abide that attitude. And they don't want the <<<Persians>>>> to hold ANY sway over the ARAB world.

When Saddam The Secular ruled over the solid buffer state wedged nicely between the House of Saud and the Shi'a Persians, all was well, from the Saudi perspective. BushCo has FUCKED that up totally--he's like a drunken pal who has driven across your yard and the next guy's and knocked down that great big fine fence around the neighbor's house, and now, the awful neighbor's Doberman from two doors down can easily come across the yard and screw the living daylights out of your little poodle!

[Bushwick Bill]

87. Only problem is...

SA has shown an increasing inability in the past few years to flood the market with oil. Although their reserves are a state secret, there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence which shows their major fields are old, worn-out, and on the verge of collapse since production has been kept up with advanced drilling and saltwater injection. What spare capacity they have is increasingly heavy sour crude, which the refineries can't take. Many people feel that their recent production cuts are just cover for depletion. So, the days of the Saudis being able to drop the price of oil may be over.

[ponthedge]

109. Makes me wonder...

I seem to remember a post on DU a few years back of satellite photos showing a possible pipeline being built into Iraq from Kuwait's border. Could this be used to refill Kuwait, SA and the US coffers?

I lost the link, anyone else remember those photos? At the time I thought it was just troop movement...

[MADem]

129. Though we keep hearing that, as though it is gonna happen tomorrow, I regard it as a downstream

problem for them. And by "downstream" I am talking forty years or so. We saw this same cry go out almost three years ago-- http://www.iags.org/n0331043.htm and http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/saudidoubts.htm --and since that time, the Saudis have built a bunch of new refineries around the world and upgraded almost a quarter of them to accept increased capacity (to include processing Venzuelan-type 'sour' oil). They even offered to build us a couple of new ones, scott-free, if we'd go through the hassles of getting all the permits and planning permissions (NIMBY ruled on that one).

Here's their near-term plan, discussed after those "sky is falling" articles almost three years back-- http://www.ameinfo.com/61640.html --this is from last year, mind:

At the end of 2004, Crown Prince Abdullah inaugurated Saudi Aramco's Qatif project, north of Dhahran. This has increased production capacity by 800,000 b/d. Some 500,000 barrels derives from onshore extraction and 300,000 barrels from the offshore Abu Safah field....Increased production capacity has been helped by completion of other recent projects in the South Riyadh oilfield, Shaybah, as well as Qatif. A project in the Haradh field to produce another 300,000 b/d will be completed in 2006 while 500,000 b/d is expected to come on stream from field developments at Abu Hadriya, Fadhili and Khursaniyah in 2007. New production at the Khurais field north of Saudi Aramco's principal Ghawar field will increase output there to 1.9 million b/d by 2009.


200 billion barrels more
According to Petroleum and Mineral Resources Minister Ali Al-Naimi: 'There are great opportunities to increase the Kingdom's producible oil reserve by about 200 billion barrels either through new discoveries or increasing the percentage of extractable oil from known reserves.'

Saudi Aramco says it has a conservative approach to reservoir estimates and depletes its reverses at a far slower rate than major oil companies....Dr. Nansen Saleri, Saudi Aramco's oil reservoir manager has said that Saudi Aramco's production capacity can easily be increased to sustainable rates of 12 million to 15 million barrels-a-day if global markets demand the extra crude.

With 27.62% of the world's proven oil reserves, Saudi Arabia possesses the lion's share of all the oil producing countries crude....About 130 billion barrels of this is developed and mostly in production. Saudi Aramco's plans call for the replacement of 15 billion barrels of reserves from 2005 to 2009 at a rate of about 3 billion barrels a year.

'We believe very confidently that we are looking very conservatively upwards of 150 billion barrels over and above the 260 billion barrels that we carry as proven reserves right now. That is 60% more and that's the underlying message we want to convey,' Dr Saleri told the Centre for Strategic and International Studies last year....

And there's still the Empty Quarter, http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0502/sights_n_sounds/media2.html which, while inhospitable (what part of that joint IS hospitable) is largely unexplored. They did do a geological and nature survey recently this past year, and consequently renamed the place the VALUABLE Quarter...so that tells ya something. And I imagine that from their perspective, they figure some of the Bedouins might get a little annoyed, but hey, a little cash in compensation, a camel or three, and life goes on....

[amandabeech]

154. The Saudis are building refineries for their very heavy sour stuff

that no one will buy. Nearly all new production has been recently and will be of this variety.

I'd do a little more research before I took everything the Saudis say about their reserves as Allah's truth.

I've been following this for five years through unemployment and illness when I've had lots of time to read and think. While I don't think that the oil will be gone tomorrow, your prediction of 40 years is very optimistic, even more so than CERA or EIA, whose past predictions have been too rosy.

The Saudis have been drilling horizontal wells like crazy. Those are the kind that caused Omani production to fall off the cliff. They can get a lot out fast, but when the water hits the wells its all over.

Also, the Saudis were big into reserve increase back in the 1980s and don't report numbers that appear to reflect the huge haul of oil that's been taken out over the past 25 years.

Just my 50 cents.

[MADem]

169. What about the Empty Quarter? It is a huge area, untouched.

It's hot as hell out there, and very inhospitable. But they seem to think they've got more of the same under there.

As for the sour, once it's refined, it's good to go. Venezuela doesn't have any problem selling theirs, now, do they? Joe Kennedy uses it to heat homes of the poor here in MA! ME is on the bandwagon as well. And every time one pulls up to a CITGO, it's that Venezuelan sour crap that is going in one's car.

We're kind of doing an apples and oranges thing, here. Sure, I completely concede that everyone loves the light/sweet, because it is easy, but if the sour can be had so cheaply that it more than compensates for the refining issues and you end up with a gallon of cheaper gas at the end of the line, well, it's the bottom line that is going to prevail.

[Auntie Bush]

43. That's why bush won't/hasn't pulled our troops out even though

the American people want him to. He sure has got himself backed into a corner...beware of a cornered animal! All hell/total war is going to break out in the ME! I'm getting kind of scared/worried of what will eventually happen.

[babylonsister]

46. I'm scared, too, Auntie. What further hell has dimson wrought? nt

[Viva_La_Revolution]

11. Now we know why the Ambassador resigned today

apparently they knew it would hit the news today

[Fridays Child]

20. Yes but is the resignation meant to underscore the seriousness...

...of Saudi Arabia's threat or is it all just an elaborate dog and pony show for Bush's sake? If he doesn't start in with his signature chest-thumping, while he fumes that nobody gets to push him around but, instead, makes up excuses for why there can be no troop withdrawals, I'll suspect it's the latter. And if it is the latter, I hope it blows up in Chimpy's face.

[MADem]

54. Well, another theory is that Turki is getting spanked for letting Obaid blab to the WAPO NT

His recall could actually be a punishment, not a promotion, and maybe not just concern that Saud is sick. Hard to tell, really. Of course, if they're gonna give us Clinton-era gas prices, and maybe pick up the cost of the war, pay a few of our bills, will our legislature back down, and actually be willing to trade US blood for cheap oil?

That's the tough question, here. How much are they all, regardless of party, REALLY for a 'Troops Home Now!' philosophy with a weak dollar and a brutal deficit staring them in the face?

The Saudi ambassador to the United States, Prince Turki al-Faisal, who told his staff on Monday that he was resigning his post, recently fired Nawaf Obaid, a consultant who wrote an opinion piece in The Washington Post two weeks ago contending that “one of the first consequences” of an American pullout of Iraq would “be massive Saudi intervention to stop Iranian-backed Shiite militias from butchering Iraqi Sunnis.”....The Saudi government disavowed Mr. Obaid’s column, and Prince Turki canceled his contract.

But Arab diplomats said Tuesday that Mr. Obaid’s column reflected the view of the Saudi government, which has made clear its opposition to an American pullout from Iraq.

When that Obaid OP ED first came out, I read it, and it had the 'ring of truth' in it to me, even when the Saudis poo-poohed it. I said so here a while back...

[Fridays Child]

12. Here's the link...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/13/world/middleeast/13saudi.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin

[rodeodance]

18. says here that SA told Cheney about this 2 WEEKS ago!

Saudis Give U.S. a Grim What If

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Article Tools Sponsored By
By HELENE COOPER
Published: December 13, 2006

WASHINGTON, Dec. 12 — Saudi Arabia has told the Bush administration that it might provide financial backing to Iraqi Sunnis in any war against Iraq’s Shiites if the United States pulls its troops out of Iraq, according to American and Arab diplomats.


King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia conveyed that message to Vice President Dick Cheney two weeks ago during Mr. Cheney’s whirlwind visit to Riyadh, the officials said. During the visit, King Abdullah also expressed strong opposition to diplomatic talks between the United States and Iran, and pushed for Washington to encourage the resumption of peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians, senior Bush administration officials said.

The Saudi warning reflects fears among America’s Sunni Arab allies about Iran’s rising influence in Iraq, coupled with Tehran’s nuclear ambitions. King Abdullah II of Jordan has also expressed concern about rising Shiite influence, and about the prospect that the Shiite-dominated government would use Iraqi troops against the Sunni population.

A senior Bush administration official said Tuesday that part of the administration’s review of Iraq policy involved the question of how to harness a coalition of moderate Iraqi Sunnis with centrist Shiites to back the Iraqi government led by Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki.

[Fridays Child]

22. Okey dokey. There's another dot. I suspect this was all planned...

...for the benefit of the BFEE.

[grasswire]

57. say more about what you mean

How does BFEE benefit from this Saudi move?

[Fridays Child]

69. You know, I'm not sure. It's just a feeling, at this point, that this will...

...somehow, benefit Bush. Will he use it as an excuse to refuse to draw down troops in Iraq? I can see that backfiring on him, so I don't think it's that simple. But I just don't trust that anything having to do with the House of Bush or the House of Saud is ever quite what it appears to be. These two families go back a long way together, and it seems that there is a cold calculus to the relationship. It's always been mutually beneficial, financially, politically, and so on.

And it's just too odd that Dick Cheney is suddenly and surprisingly in Saudi Arabia for a visit and, two weeks later, their ambassador resigns. Then within hours of that development, Saudi Arabia threatens us--and the New York Times says that Dick knew all about it, from his trip. WTF???

[IndianaGreen]

39. The only hope is a US coup that puts secular Shia Allawi in power

No more pretense of democracy! That's a recipe for creation an Iranian-controlled theocracy. Allawi is our new Saddam. Hail to the new Chief!

[On the Road]

98. His Name is "Prince Turki"?

Sounds more appropriate for our president.

[mod mom]

33. Article shows a little infighting between Bandar and Turki for Foreign Minister's

position (ailing royal):

"The former adviser said Prince Turki’s resignation came amid a growing rivalry between the ambassador and Prince Bandar, who is now Saudi Arabia’s national security adviser. Prince Bandar, well known in Washington for his access to the White House, has vied to become the next foreign minister.

“This is a very high-level problem; this is about Turki, the king and Bandar,” said the former adviser to the royal family. “Let’s say the men don’t have a lot of professional admiration for each other.”

[KoKo]

85. Interesting. Also that Bandar sold his big Mansion in Texas last Summer..

Sort of made it seem that he was leaving the US for good. He probably has a few condo's scattered around...but that was Bandar's main Palace.

Bandar was like an Uncle to Bush II wasn't he?

[rodeodance]

13. Here is the discussion thread for amb. leaving. good dot connections

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2649199

[Poll_Blind]

16. Color-coded map of Iraq showing Sunni, Shia, Kurd areas:

From Globalsecurity:



PB

[uppityperson]

19. another wider area map also, here

[bigworld]

34. Thanks for these maps!

very useful!

[mod mom]

40. I agree, why would Iran consider an escalation with such a huge Sunni

dominance? Are there many factions of Sunni's who wouldn't fight for their brothers? (excuse my ignorance)

[Tight_rope]

102. And how does Russia play in this?

I know I recently, if not just this week read that Russia would begin suppling nuclear weapons to Iran...or sometime to the likes beginning March 2007. I need to find that article.

[Auntie Bush]

55. Wow! That changes the situation. Most the ME are Sunni and we're backing

the Shiites? We could never defeat them! What the hell are we going to do? Just let the Sunnis demolish the Shiite? Just let them take over the oil and get the hell out of there... with our tail between our legs? Sounds like the only solution to me. Bush* sure fuc*ed himself. I guess he took Cheney's advice. Leahy must be having a good laugh! Not really, but he sure must be sick at heart as to what the STUPID, GREEDY FOOLS have gotten us into. We can't wait for impeachment or an election! He needs to be dragged out of the White House physically... NOW! Send the military in and nail his a** to the wall. Pin his tail on the donkey! lol I need a little humor in this disgusting situation.

[rodeodance]

81. from what i read, We will stay and give it 'push" (more$, more troops,etc)

[davekriss]

84. "Bush* sure fuc*ed himself"

The problem is -- the tragedy of the situation -- is that in f*cking himself, Bushboi f*cked all of us. Our children and our children's children will be living with the global politico-economic adjustments and the blowback for decades to come.

[NJCher]

139. Yeah, well "our children" need to start deserting this sinking ship

Cher

[eridani]

143. I'd like a map showing oil deposits overlaid with Shi'ite areas

What do you want to bet that isn't Bushco's reason for even considering backing the Shia?

[cassiepriam]

77. Take a good look at this map. The mideast may never look like this again?

Now that Bush has started WW III.
War has a way of redrawing maps.

[Auntie Bush]

93. Good tip! We should buy stock in companies that specialize in map making.

The ME will never ever be the same, nor will the people...us included and that goes for our children and grandchildren too.

[LuckyLib]

115. Amazing map. What are the chances Chimpy looked at this map

BEFORE getting us into this mess? Slim and none, I know.

[MADem]

60. That's pretty much on the mark--the Kurds certainly want that chunk up around

Kirkuk...and the oil fields associated with the region!

[Mojorabbit]

21. If this is not handled perfectly

the middle east will go up in flames and we can say hello to a major energy crisis.

[MADem]

24. It very well could have to do with both. What Army do they plan on using, I wonder?????

Theirs????? Syria's, maybe? They don't have much oil, either!

:rofl:

Will they send in the "I Don't Do Menial Labor" Brigade or the "By the Asshole of a Camel, I Have Broken a Nail" Battalion? OR...will they hire the poor, the stateless, and perhaps the PALESTINIANS, to do their dirty work for them? And who will supervise them? I'm sure the Wahabbists would be thrilled to jump at the chance, and when they get those clowns well trained, and well disciplined, they can turn the old fighting force of guys who weren't born with a silver spoon on the House of Saud....and then things will REALLY get interesting. Hmmmmm....maybe not a good idea to toss those clowns into supervisory roles...just in case.

And as for us...time to figure out alternative ways to keep the house warm in winter, I'm thinking!! Just in case, of course....

The Army they've been using up to now is the U.S. Army.

Maybe they'll decide to offer Monkeyboy a deep discount in petroleum products in exchange for American blood. How low will they go? Two bucks? A buck eighty? A Clintonesque buck thirty???

And how long will our Executive AND Legislative branches hold out, if such an offer is made? When does it actually become cost-effective to trade blood for oil? How long, as a nation, will we be able to live with ourselves if such a deal is made?

[rodeodance]

30. says they will financial backing to Iraqi Sunni and we know they have $$

[MADem]

44. Well, in a sick, BushCo fashion, if it's just going to be a money and guns exercise,

that could be MonkeyBoy's solution, right there.

If the House of Saud funds the Sunni, you KNOW who will eventually fund the Shi'a--Iran.

And the both of them will be blowing the oilfields to kingdom come.

If it gets bloody and ugly enough, it could be another proxified Iran-Iraq War, the only difference being that the war won't be fought along the border, but inside Iraq.

The challenge for the Sunni will still be bodies--they'll be looking for volunteers and hauling out all those religious stereotypes to get help. They simply don't, from their own ranks, have the numbers to go up against the Shi'a, unless they're planning on using Saudi money to buy some heavy duty, super-standoffish weaponry, and don't give a shit about civilian casualties.

So much for that Peace on Earth, Good Will towards Men stuff, I guess...

[MilesColtrane]

132. Saudi/Sunni counterbalance...

against Iran/Shia will come in the form of nuclear weapons. You can bet on it.

The Saudis will probably buy nukes from Pakistan, or go the black market route, while they are developing their own.
Things are quickly changing and if this Saudi/Us vs. Iran proxy war in Iraq continues to escalate, SA will want to have an ace up it's sleeve.

Hell, I wouldn't put it past BushCo™ to supply the necessary technology to Abdullah, as long as they think they have a way to do it without Israel finding out.

Big Darkness Come Soon.

[MADem]

136. They've put out the call for volunteers to all of the sunni clerics

...but that's a stopgap measure in the event BushCo cuts and runs.

I think their best bet is to hire mercenaries, myself. Get BushCo to pony up US advisors, hire some serious mercenaries, get ones with language skills, interdisperse other Arab world actors into their ranks (well vetted Sunnis, of course) and they're off to the races. It'll be like the Northern Alliance days, all over again!!!! Gee, will they grow another Usama in that cauldron???

Nukes would be a last resort--they're greedy. They'd like to see Sunni, or at least secular, hegemony over Iraq, and they'd like a piece of that oil field action in exchange for their help.

What they want is to maintain Iraq as a buffer against those dreadful Persians, who they feel have no business lecturing the <<<<<ARAB>>>>>> world about anything!!!

[Botany]

25. Well this is another fine mess you have gotten us into.

bush & company have caused so much death, pain, and international
problems that their impeachment is now just a matter of time ....

Sadly the problems caused by this gang have no easy answers.

[rodeodance]

26. NYT: Saudis Give U.S. a Grim What If

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/13/world/middleeast/13saudi.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&ref=world&pagewanted=print

December 13, 2006
Saudis Give U.S. a Grim What If
By HELENE COOPER

WASHINGTON, Dec. 12 — Saudi Arabia has told the Bush administration that it might provide financial backing to Iraqi Sunnis in any war against Iraq’s Shiites if the United States pulls its troops out of Iraq, according to American and Arab diplomats.

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia conveyed that message to Vice President Dick Cheney two weeks ago during Mr. Cheney’s whirlwind visit to Riyadh, the officials said. During the visit, King Abdullah also expressed strong opposition to diplomatic talks between the United States and Iran, and pushed for Washington to encourage the resumption of peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians, senior Bush administration officials said.

The Saudi warning reflects fears among America’s Sunni Arab allies about Iran’s rising influence in Iraq, coupled with Tehran’s nuclear ambitions. King Abdullah II of Jordan has also expressed concern about rising Shiite influence, and about the prospect that the Shiite-dominated government would use Iraqi troops against the Sunni population.

A senior Bush administration official said Tuesday that part of the administration’s review of Iraq policy involved the question of how to harness a coalition of moderate Iraqi Sunnis with centrist Shiites to back the Iraqi government led by Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki.

The Saudis have argued strenuously against an American pullout from Iraq, citing fears that Iraq’s minority Sunni Arab population would be massacred. Those fears, United States officials said, have become more pronounced as a growing chorus in Washington has advocated a draw-down of American troops in Iraq, coupled with diplomatic outreach to Iran, which is largely Shiite.

[MADem]

48. Say, THANKS for posting that article!!!

...The Saudi ambassador to the United States, Prince Turki al-Faisal, who told his staff on Monday that he was resigning his post, recently fired Nawaf Obaid, a consultant who wrote an opinion piece in The Washington Post two weeks ago contending that “one of the first consequences” of an American pullout of Iraq would “be massive Saudi intervention to stop Iranian-backed Shiite militias from butchering Iraqi Sunnis.”

Mr. Obaid also suggested that Saudi Arabia could cut world oil prices in half by raising its production, a move that he said “would be devastating to Iran, which is facing economic difficulties even without today’s high oil prices.” The Saudi government disavowed Mr. Obaid’s column, and Prince Turki canceled his contract.

But Arab diplomats said Tuesday that Mr. Obaid’s column reflected the view of the Saudi government, which has made clear its opposition to an American pullout from Iraq.

In a speech in Philadelphia last week, Prince Turki reiterated the Saudi position against an American withdrawal from Iraq. “Just picking up and leaving is going to create a huge vacuum,” he told the World Affairs Council. “The U.S. must underline its support for the Maliki government because there is no other game in town.”...

This is simply the second salvo of negotiations...how much is American blood worth? The Saudis simply want to know how much oil do we have to give you, at how deep a discount, to stay and be, at the end of the day, the shield for the Saudis?

That IS what is going on here!!!! Funny how the Saudis do just like the Monkey, and fire the guy who tells the truth!

At what price per gallon will BushCo cave? It's gotta be enough to fund the war and then some...and the discounts have to be profound, I'm guessing.

[KoKo]

91. and....did you notice article says he had not "Officially Resigned" as of Tuesday

even though it was reported that he was resigning in the WaPo. So, Prince Turki sent out word he was resigning that got picked up by WaPo in an article on Monday but didn't officially resign as of yesterday. The story was put out so Prince Turki could bargain?

from the article:

The resignation of Prince Turki, a former Saudi intelligence chief and a son of the late King Faisal, was supposed to be formally announced Monday, officials said, but that had not happened by late Tuesday.

“They’re keeping us very puzzled,” a Saudi official said. Prince Turki’s resignation was first reported Monday in The Washington Post.

If Prince Turki does depart, he will leave after 15 months on the job, in contrast to the 22 years that his predecessor, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, spent as ambassador in Washington.

[hang a left]

27. This feels too much like a show.

Watch the right hand while the left hand is moving.

[jarab]

29. This would appear to be "the" story of the day. Thanks. eom

...O...

[IndianaGreen]

31. It has to do with both, ambassador's resignation and Cheney's trip

While there are more Shia than Suni in Iraq, there are more Suni than Shia in the world.

We just backed the wrong side in Iraq. Our foolish war has made Iran into a major powerbroker in the entire region, much to the chagrin and fear of all the other Middle Eastern governments.

[fujiyama]

70. We didn't have a choice in who we backed

Shiites make a majority of the country and have paid the highest burden both during Saddam's rule and after. What's really insane, is that while conditions for SHiites sucked under Saddam, they are probably even worse now.

And it's obvious we're a bitch for the Saudi government.

My guess is they are already funding the insurgency. No one wants to admit that. Of course, according to propaganda outlets, the Saudis are our allies.

At this point, every single outcome has been awful and will be devastating...for all of Iraq's communities. And we've burned so many bridges that both Shiites and Sunnis back attacks on Americans and hate us.

[IndianaGreen]

153. Bush is planning his "Battle of the Bulge," the last battle for victory in Iraq

Hitler's last desperate act to snatch victory out of the jaws of defeat was the winter offensive that came to be known as the Battle of the Bulge. Now we hear Bush and his coterie of neocon allies talk about one last push, one final confrontation, to break the back of the insurgency. For those of us old enough to have lived through Vietnam, this situation is similar to General Westmoreland's call for an additional 100,000 troops in the aftermath of the Tet Offensive. Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed on then-President Johnson. There are no rational people around Bush who seems to be in need of serious psychological intervention himself.

The war was wrong from its inception! It was a war of aggression that put our troops on the same moral plane as Saddam's armies when they invaded Kuwait, or Hitler's armies when they attacked Poland. Aggression and aggressor states should never be rewarded with victory or with the spoils of war, and America is no exception.

I am reminded of the prophetic words of Pope John Paul II who warned Bush and Blair that if they went into Iraq, they would do so without G-d. We have been damned ever since!

[rodeodance]

32. so, I guess we stay!!

[rodeodance]

37. SA is blackmailing us to stay in Iraq:

The Bush administration is also working on a way to form a coalition of Sunni Arab nations and a moderate Shiite government in Iraq, along with the United States and Europe, to stand against “Iran, Syria and the terrorists,” another senior administration official said Tuesday.

Until now Saudi officials have promised their counterparts in the United States that they would refrain from aiding Iraq’s Sunni insurgency. But that pledge holds only as long as the United States remains in Iraq.

The Saudis have been wary of supporting Sunnis in Iraq because their insurgency there has been led by extremists of Al Qaeda, who are opposed to the kingdom’s monarchy. But if Iraq’s sectarian war worsened, the Saudis would line up with Sunni tribal leaders.

The Saudi ambassador to the United States, Prince Turki al-Faisal, who told his staff on Monday that he was resigning his post, recently fired Nawaf Obaid, a consultant who wrote an opinion piece in The Washington Post two weeks ago contending that “one of the first consequences” of an American pullout of Iraq would “be massive Saudi intervention to stop Iranian-backed Shiite militias from butchering Iraqi Sunnis.”

[MADem]

59. Here's their pitch......Remember that awful three dollar a gallon gas?

Well, stick with us, and we'll give you gas for SPECIAL PRICE.....a buck eighty, howzabout it, Bushyboy? Whatcha say??

No, not enough? A buck fifty, AND we'll buy you new equipment...all that crap that's worn out, sure, we'll replace it!!! And then some!!!

Come ON, Bushyboy....you KNOW you need the dough...you've got this HUGE deficit working. You can pay that down, get the damned Chinese off your backs, and get your act back together. Awwww, so a few guys get killed, Bushyboy, no big deal!!! Look, tell ya what, change your rules, hire those Mexicans that keep coming over your border--kill two birds with one stone!! Get those border state zealots off your ass, and fill out your ranks!! Who gives a shit if they can't speak English--they can't fucking speak Arabic, either!!!

Think about it, Bushyboy, offer them citizenship and then put them on point or in those less-than-optimally armored Humvees--hell, if they make it back, they'll be good citizens, I'd guess...and if they don't, well, most of the cryin' will be south of the border, nudge, nudge, wink, wink!!!!

Truly, nothing would surprise me at this point!!!

[Tight_rope]

119. What you're saying coming true would not surprise me one bit...reminds me

of this saying, "Who in hell wants to get in the middle of a fight between a polecat and a skunk?"...looks like we did. :popcorn:

[Megahurtz]

120. That's about it! n/t

[Tatiana]

38. We are so screwn. America cannot afford to have Bush/Cheney representing us abroad.

The Saudis are obviously forcing our hand. Force us to remain in Iraq and do their dirty work or they will give the Sunnis the funds and ammunition to decimate the Shia, likely drawing Iran into a devastating conflict.

What do we do? How do we push back the looming energy crisis? It's issues like this that the American public really needs to consider before casting a vote for evil trash like George W. Bush or Dick Cheney.

[babylonsister]

58. Forcing our hand equals blackmail. So, how much for how long? nt

[rodeodance]

82. I agree.

[twilight_sailing]

42. None of this had to happen

I remember well the Hurry! Hurry! Hurry! with which we went to war against Iraq.

[Gregorian]

47. That COMMA just became a semicolon.

Impeachment will get Bush away from the trigger. But perhaps this is going to mean total disaster for Iraq and the Middle East.

Sigh...........................

[Amonester]

158. Total disaster is already in Iraq and the ME since poppy's flip

flop in 1990... and all this for a mere 10 million PR campaign profit for his criminal pals. Alright, it was not as total as it's been since 03/03 (although it did not have to be...).

Is there anything worst than total disaster? That's where Iraq and the ME is going in a fast lane, IMHO.

Heck of a job, dumbya. :puke:

[burrowowl]

53. The Saudis are already

supporting the Sunnis. So, whay else is new. It would just be openly.

[rocktivity]

62. I agree--I think we're being "scripted" again

SA could go in and help the Sunnis any time they want to. I think this was cooked up to "force" Bush to stay--not win, but stay.

:headbang:
rocknation

[goclark]

63. Help me out ~ It is so hard to believe

that Cheney has not made some kind of deal to save the butts of the Neo Cons.


Bush has insisted that we need to " stay the course" and isn't this giving him just the excuse that he needs?

Didn't I hear today that GW is sending 20,OOO more troops to Iraq?

:crazy:

[babylonsister]

64. Maybe Cheney made a deal to save this presidency, or try to. nt

[rocktivity]

65. The only thing Cheney's trying to save is his party's face.

This little scenario will make it easy for Georgie to stay the course while his friends cash in on oil and war profiteering until '08. If the Saudis were that concerned about the Sunni's welfare, they'd have long since gone in--it isn't as though they're afraid of the U.S. military putting up a fight!

:mad:
rocknation

[babylonsister]

66. If the US capitulates to SA and that's their reasoning for staying

in this war, all bets are off. The current CIC needs to go.
SA has never been 'involved' in the 9/11 terrorist act despite the fact that 17 of the 19 guys were from there.
Cheney just went 'to visit'.
Ambassador leaves.
Blackmail.
What's going on?

[Old and In the Way]

68. I'm thinking he'd like nothing better than to see someone light the fuse

by creating a major event in Iran. SA is obvious got concerns about losing Iraq as a secular buffer state and seeing the country (and its oil) come under Shia control. There could be an economic war between SA and Iraq/Iran as to who can bankrupt who first. While that might be in the consumer's interests, it probably isn't in Big Oil's interest. If we exit the ME, I think the House of Saud is going start teetering....they are a pretty corrupt bunch and they may find that their close association to Bush and the West may be their undoing in a radicalized ME map.

Jump starting a real regional war would be of some benefit to Bush/Cheney...at least short term. They are wounded dogs and who knows to what extreme they'd go to to protect their miserable hides?

[goclark]

100. Thanks ~ they are truly Mad Dogs

:scared:

[stubtoe]

117. So there will be a playing-out between Big Oil and ME religious/tribal entities?

It'll be ugly, indeed. I think I'd put my money on the tribes, they've been around much longer.

[MADem]

73. They have no real Army, though

They have a bunch of guys in uniform who goose step, but they like their afternoon naps and don't like getting all hot and sweaty.

Their actual, protect-us, capable, fighting Army is the US Army, bought and paid for with cheap petroleum.

We're like addicts being bullied to do something unsavory by our drug dealer, I fear. He's been giving us those cheap drugs all this while, and now he wants a little FAVOR, or we get no more drugs with winter coming on...

[Jennicut]

67. Are we going to eventually see Saudia Arabia vs. Iran for control of Iraq?

I think if we leave this will happen but we cannot stay much longer. Our troops are hurting. We can't stay forever and hold this off. Thanks alot Chimpy for making EVERYTHING in this region much, much worse than it was before. As my 2 and 1/2 year old says, "what a doo-doo head!".

[fujiyama]

71. Anyone who thinks high level Saudis aren't already supporting the insurgency

is in denial.

Where the hell else are the Sunni insurgents getting money from?

The media is likely a little slow - again.

[MADem]

74. Of course, you're quite right. This is simply lifting the veil of plausible deniability.

And it's also the House of Saud's way of showing the rest of the region how they can boss the USA to do the bidding of the King. That US Army is the Saudi Army, you see--they paid good money for it.

We're little oil whores, we'll do anything for the black gold. Even trade the blood of our young....if the price is right.

America may have to ask herself the question--what price is worth the loss of, oh say, fifteen to twenty kids a month, on average? Two bucks a gallon? A buck eighty? A buck fifty? Less? You know that's how their likely to frame it--if we don't help those freedom loving Democratic uh...long-term allies of ours, the Saudis, then we'll be paying more for gas then they do now in.....EUROPE!!!! And Grandma will be COOOOLLLLD this winter!!!!!!!!!!!! Jus' gotta stay that course a LITTLE while longer....

[aquart]

75. The Saudis have lots of younger sons.

A good way to get rid of all their troublesome energy is to put them in uniform and march them off to war.

Just as, as long as the US is engaged in endless war, the jobless problem here is not front and center on everyone's mind.

[lostnfound]

76. Did they happen to add a "PS"

"PS: So sorry about the WTC"

:grr:

Or any threats about oil production slipping?

[GeorgeGist]

80. It's payback time...

Mr. Booosh. The Saudi's bought your family long ago.

[Roland99]

83. Cheney summoned by Royals; Saudi Ambassador resigns and leaves the US; Saudis backing insurgents....

Anyone ready for $100+/bbl oil?

[Tight_rope]

86. Here's a link for ya!

Saudis may back Iraq Sunnis if U.S. exits

NEW YORK - Saudi Arabia has warned Washington it might provide financial aid to Iraqi Sunnis in any fighting against Shiites if the U.S. pulls its troops out of Iraq, The New York Times reported Wednesday.

Saudi Arabia, a majority Sunni country, has promised U.S. officials that it would not intervene to assist Iraq's Sunni insurgency, according to the report, which cited anonymous American and Arab diplomatic sources.

But that promise might not hold if U.S. troops leave Iraq, the newspaper said. The Bush administration has repeatedly said there are no plans for the immediate pullout of U.S. troops.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061213/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_warning

[Beetwasher]

88. Another Fine Mess You've Gotten Us Into, Chimpy

n/t

[underpants]

92. Of course they are-anything to keep the radicals out of their country

Fundamentalist muslim threaten them far more than they could ever threaten us or anyone else. The key has always been to keep throwing some money at the radical element to keep them alive as a political means against "the west" while using the west to keep them protected. It is much like issues here that will never be resolved and are used to stir up a certain elements blood and raise funds, same thing-pro wrestling.

[Javaman]

94. Weeeee! aren't stupid ill conceived wars of choice fun????

moron* only serves his saudi masters.

[saigon68]

96. YES HE DOES

[Megahurtz]

121. Yeah and don't forget his Pop

he practically started all this shit.:grr:

[2Design]

95. Aren't they already funding them - like they did the 911 attack

These are BFEE friends - they are helping them justify staying the course

[Imagevision]

110. What was it 15 out of the 19, 9-11 bombers were from saudi Arabia?

[RestoreGore]

97. Uh oh, don't make the masters mad...

So let me get this straight. OUR children will have to stay and die in that hellhole because SAUDI ARABIA runs OUR foreign policy along with Israel? And it is not out of national pride that they do this. It is because they do not want a fundamentalist Shiite state with control of the second largest oil reserves in the world in Iraq... and don't think oil is the only barometer here, because you can be damned sure WATER is one of the main reasons as well why Saudi Arabia is now threatening this country. Can you imagine it would come to this? The very country that spawned the attackers on this country now thinks it has the right to tell us what to do in a country we never should have attacked in the first place that has made the entire Middle East a powderkeg ready to explode whether we pull troops out or not. Wow, are we ever f&&&&&.

[valerief]

99. Saudis want the Iraq oil but need Iraq in shambles before they

"help" them restore order. US agreed to destroy Iraq for the Saudis, but now the US is wussing out on their promise. It's pissing off the Saudis, so they'll do it themselves with the Sunnis. Zat it?

[ZENmud]

101. Saudis threats - implementation worries CARTOON

The threats towards funding Sunni insurgents invite reflection as to possible 'second phase' counter-threats, not necessarily by us, the US.

If Saudis actually wanted to do this, they would have done it already.
Broadcasting their intention, seems to create a buzz that would be useful - in a backhanded way - to giving Bush the Lesser a b/tchslap across his face, as the angst ripples through his beloved petroleumEconomy.

Saudis couldn't possibly want to use Iraq as a warzone against Iran, who certainly would step-up any support to Shi'ias in response to this hypothetically-proposed Saudi act.

The pressure, as generated by world response to the incredible Fuckuper-in-Chief: Bush the Lesser, is going to overwhelm him probably: between now and March 2007, look for him to redefine 'Deer in the Headlights'.

Bush the Lesser, Cheney and Rice: War crimes are HELL

ZENmud

[The Count]

103. When they summoned Dick, they told him....And these are our "friends"

[Megahurtz]

122. Lol!

Love your little animated Avitar. That's hilarious!:7

[mrJJ]

104. Stop the Outsourcing!!!!!

Bush/Cheney may have found their escape clause..

"SAUDI & US ENERGY COMPANIES DEMAND MORE US TROOPS ON THE GROUND!!!"

Stay the course is in full swing.

Let the spin begin.... look for the fight for democracy, freedom, vs terrorism..


DON'T ALLOW Bush/Cheney TO OUTSOURCE our Military!!!!! Call, write or petition your REPRESENTATIVE!

[DuaneBidoux]

105. Humpty Dumpty has fallen off the wall and it was Bush that gave him the push.

[devilgrrl]

108. You mean, they aren't already doing that?

:sarcasm:

[Critters2]

111. Invading Iraq was sure a good idea, though, wasn't it?!

What a fucking mess.

[Imagevision]

112. Bush is going to drag this out thru 2008, this man needs mental evaluation

we're being led by a man who only has big biz interests in mind or has mental problems!

[BrokenBeyondRepair]

113. this has been the plan all along n/t

[Imagevision]

114. So, we split...? and the Sauidi's can take over?!! how soon can we do this?

The media can then be entertaining playing out the Saudi-Iran crisis nightly and we won't have to continue hearing about how many US. troops were blown up on any given day.

Sounds like a plan to me. no more 160 Billion dollar blank checks for Bush's war.

[MADem]

124. The Saudis cannot take over. That's why they are balltwisting us to stay.

"Their" Army is the US Army, bought and paid for. It's why we have all the affordable gas we need.

They have no intention of putting boots on the ground, unless they're OUR boots. They're going to try to throw carrots of money and gas and LNG at us in order to bribe us into staying. They'll counter that with sticks--the potential for loss of control of "our" (read--US/Saudi) oil fields if Iran is permitted to gain hegemony over Iraq. You KNOW they've gotta have better intel on Iran than we do...I'll bet they're sharing all the bad news with us lately.

If that doesn't work, they'll cut the price of gas in half or more, to the point where Iran, which runs their government off of what they pump, will have to pump like mad just to meet payroll and keep the natives from getting restless. And that means the Persians won't have the capability or the cash to fund any adventures in Iraq.

But then, BushCo and all his robed pals won't be making any money off their oil stocks, now, will they? So, on the one hand, if we stay, we can get cheap gas and cash for US blood; on the other, if we leave, BushCo loses a ton of stock money because the Saudis have to get into a price war to keep Iran at home. War starts to look like it has a load of advantages to the heartless BushCo crowd from that standpoint--a few dead kids are the price to fill up that SUV for cheap, the price for fat stock portfolios, the price to pay down the deficit with China, the price to re-equip our battered military...

It's balltwisting of the highest order. The only other route I can see out of this mess is to go with a combination of military advisors and high-quality mercenaries (euphemistically termed Security Personnel)--that option will satisfy the 'bring 'em home' US public, and the Saudis, who simply want a group of fighting forces they can control and direct, providing they can get mercenaries in the quality and numbers that they need.

And odds are, if they do "bring 'em home" exercise, a lot of "'em" will be demobbed, unemployed, and desperate for a paycheck. After a suitable period, they'll get a letter from BLACKWATER or similar agency offering them a job in bee-yooo-tee-ful downtown Baghdad...and guess what? No haircuts, moustache/beard or other grooming requirements! No piss tests--go ahead and do a little hash off duty...have a beer, too! Watch PORN that's smuggled in! Yee haw! Dragon Skin body armor for everyone! More comfortable gear...and five times the money. Whacha say???

What other options are there, really? Absent letting the place blow to hell, or maybe even coming to peaceful terms after a period of fighting without us all on their own, that is?

[amandabeech]

157. The Saudis may not be able to ramp up production of any oil

that the world wants to buy. They're cutting their yearly allocation to their Far Eastern customers by 6-8%. That's their light, sweet crude. They can't sell their heavy, high sulfur crude to anyone.

However, over on the Opec front, the Saudis are trying to limit production to keep the price up to $60. Their actions and talk don't make much sense.

I think that any talk about cutting the oil price down to $40 is just talk, and the Iranians know it.

[MADem]

170. They can if it's already refined, and at bargain basement prices.

They don't WANT to do this, that's cutting off their own noses, or wallets, to spite their neighbors. They are simply holding it out as a 'no shit' threat to the Persians. It's the course of last resort, you see, not the first resort. If the Persians start getting adventurous in Iraq, the Saudis'll slash the prices simply to keep them at home.

If Iran has to triple capacity just to make the same money they are making now, just to pay their government payroll and the pensions of the wounded, and the widows and orphans from the Great War, they won't have money for al-Sadr and the asssorted militias, you see.

[Higans]

116. That means that Saudis support Terrorism.

When do we invade?

Or are we going to back the Shiites and just perpetuate this stupid war until every one is dead.

could this whole thing have been a Saudi war to Begin with? after all, where did the 9/11 terrorist come from?

How clear everything is getting.

[genieroze]

118. The Saudis come to * rescue. * has no intention of withdrawing from Iraq.

Now he has an excuse not to withdraw.

[sampsonblk]

128. So that's why Cheney went over...

Makes sense now.

[Chulanowa]

130. In 1,400 years...

Shi'a and Sunni have never had sectarian war. Though there were battles between competing dynasties, Muslims of all sects stood on all sides.

Now we see the two brought to war, not just in one nation, but possibly three - Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and we know Iran will back the shi'a. Brought to this state by a United States president.

Fuck the Hague. Give his ass to the Iraqis for trial. Maybe we can get one more rope dance out of them.

[rman]

131. Aren't insurgents terrorists?

Aren't insurgents killing American soldiers?

Aren't insurgents terrorists?

Aren't we in a "war on terror" or something?

Doesn't that mean we will at war with Saudi Arabia once they do support Sunni insurgency?

And at the same time it won't improve relations with Iran...

So perhaps we can get some sort of war-triangle going.

Kindof like earlier this year when Turkey (friend) and Iran (enemy) were both bombing the Kurds (liberated).


The Guardian
Kurds flee homes as Iran shells Iraq's northern frontier
August 18, 2006
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1852843,00.html
Iran and Turkey have deployed 200,000 troops to the Kurdish border of Iraq. Reports, online for the US, have been circulating since July 22. The Iranians and Turks have been in skirmishes with Kurdish rebels, notably after the Kurds have become an independent entity in the region, or at least well on their way.

[amandabeech]

156. The MSM never tell you which sect or ethnic group is shooting at us

or why. They also don't usually tell us which Iraqi group was responsible for the day's Iraqi deaths. Perhaps because no one really knows.

Myself, I think that there are both Sunni and Shia Iraqis that want us out and will try to kill our soldiers.

The British are having one hell of a time in Basra and that's almost exclusively Shia. It's not like Al Sadr likes us much and he's Shia.

[rman]

163. If both Sunni and Shia want US troops out of Iraq, then who's killing

Sunni and Shia?
Isn't it unlikely that they have both a common enemy and each other as enemy?

Still i think SA threatening to declare war on the US doesn't exactly fit with Official Reality.

[amandabeech]

164. Mostly Shia are killing Sunnis and vice versa.

However, there is intergroup rivalry and I have read some accounts of severe intra-Shia violence between Sadr's folks and the Mehdi army allied with another party.

[PATRICK]

133. A MSM question you will never hear:

Aren't some Saudis ALREADY giving assistance to the Sunnis which translates into American deaths no matter how you look at it? Of course they are allowed to threaten the US and kill us because they own a big chunk of our useless oil economy. Any flicker of idle curiosity out there at all? Doubt it.

[svpadgham]

134. By Republican "logic"

This means that if the insurgents are terra-ist, and the Saudis will support the Sunni insurgents, then the Saudis support terra. Therefore we need to start invading Saudi Arabia. Ok boys, were bombing Venezuela!!!!

Man, those guys suck.

[entanglement]

135. The Saudis feel compelled to aid the Iraqi Sunni, their co-religionists

The Sunni are outnumbered, and there is a strong possibility that the current civil-war like situation will escalate into all-out ethnic cleansing of the Sunni after the US withdraws.

[Imagevision]

138. Interestingly, Poppy Bush recently visited the Saudi's to assure them they could depend on his son >

not to pull out of Iraq, George H.W. Bush further stating his son, the president is reliable... ain't that a hoot?!!

[Doctor_J]

140. Don't forget the Saudis are in business with the Bushes

they might be profiting from our $1B/wk invasion.

[pacalo]

142. Sounds to me like the Saudi's are trying to help out Bush...

Getting out of Iraq would put an end to the money train for Bush, Cheney, & their corporate friends. My guess is that Cheney's personal visit to the M.E. had to do with creating political leverage with the Saudi's so that they can all continue to profit from the war, as well as to put up a roadblock against all attempts by the Democrats to leave Iraq.

[amandabeech]

155. The Saudis are helping themselves as well.

They want to be the leaders of the Arab world and the Muslim world, too. After all, they are the keepers of Mecca and Medina.

They have a long-term rivalty with Iran not just over Muslim sect but also over ethnicity. The Saudis do not want to see a Shia-dominated Iranian-influenced Iran. They'll support anyone who will fight Iran. We weren't the only big backers of Saddam against Iran.

The Royal Family also has problems with a very restive population. The House of Saud might fall if it does not help fellow Sunni Arabs in Iraq. In fact, some Saudis are tribal fellows of some Iraqis. Tribes mean something there.

My question is whether King Abdullah told Cheney that the Saudis would turn off the spigots to the U.S. and dump the dollar if we left the Sunnis in the learch in Iraq.

[pacalo]

159. Is that you, Judy Miller?

Sorry -- I couldn't resist. ;)

You sound well-informed about the intricacies of the M.E.; at least more than I. We both agree that Cheney & the Saudis are in cahoots.

[amandabeech]

160. Nope. Not Judy Miller. Can't stand her and never could.

I'm just someone whose had too much time on her hands for too long.

Actually, I follow energy, and the Middle Eastern events that are key to understanding the energy situation.

As to Cheney and the Saudis, some pundits think that Cheney actually supports the Arab Shias as a way to get to Iraq oil. Under the theory, King Abdullah got wind of it and summoned Cheney to "read him the riot act" with respect to who the U.S. and Cheney's friends really were.

There has been talk of encouraging the Saudia Shia to throw off the House of Saud. The Saudi Shias sit on the oil. Iraqi Shias sit on the majority of Iraqi oil. The Iranian Arab Shias sit on the majority of Iranian oil. Kuwait is mixed. Some envision a Shia Arab state in a crescent around the northern and eastern Persian Gulf with huge amounts of oil. I think that's a pipe dream.

In the end, Cheney and the Saudis will use each other for their respective ends and nothing more.

[pacalo]

162. I saw a map of Iraq showing the territories occupied by the Shias

& those occupied by the Sunnis. By far, the Sunnis occupy the majority of Iraq, while the Shias make up only about one tenth of that of the Sunnis. I was wondering why this administration favored the Shias, so thanks for answering that question.

You seem to be very knowledgeable on this very complex subject.

[amandabeech]

165. Shias are the majority of the population.

Approximately 60%, I believe. Sunni Arabs are about 20% as are the Kurds who are a totally different ethnic group even though they are Sunni Moslems.

Other groups are Turkmen, Assyrians and some Christian groups, I think.

Some of the large provinces in western Iraq are very thinly populated because the areas are nearly desert.

[kitty1]

144. The Saudis have the Bush's blackmailed and could unleash.....

all kinds of damming info if left cornered over there. It's time to call in the favors now. God forbid if the Saudi's turn off the tap now for the WH.

[Aviation Pro]

145. Impeachment now!

eom

[eppur_se_muova]

146. Official: Saudis to back Sunnis if U.S. leaves Iraq (AP/CNN) UPDATE: WH denies

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah has warned Vice President Dick Cheney that Saudi Arabia would back the Sunnis if the United States pulls out of Iraq, according to a senior American official.

The official said the king "read the riot act" to the vice president when the two met last month in the Saudi capital, Riyadh.

The New York Times first reported the conversation Wednesday, saying Saudi support would include financial backing for minority Sunnis in the event of a civil war between them and Iraq's Shiite majority.

Violence between the two sects has exploded in waves of revenge killings since February's bombing of a revered Shiite mosque in Samarra, north of Baghdad.

The White House dismissed the report.
***
more: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/12/13/saudi.sunnis/index.html

This link just popped up on CNN's home page with the link title "Official: Saudi king read Cheney 'riot act' on Iraq". CNN is no longer time-stamping their stories, AFAICT. This likes like an update to an earlier story, with the WH denial being the real latest news.

Oops, dupe. Linky: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2650432&mesg_id=2650432
Mods, pls combine

[HereSince1628]

147. If we left it was going to cause chaos. They got chaos. If we left

Iraq the conflict would spread to other nations in the region...looks like we'll get that too.

Is this the administration of self-fulfilling prophecy; or is it the administration that knew what history it wanted written and made sure it got published?

[dipsydoodle]

148. Sounds like a plant to me

too. x(

[SpiralHawk]

149. "Bush White House in denial" As usual

Commander AWOL can't believe his kissing kronies would stab him in the back.

But then he's been so busy raking in the oil & munitions profits from his war that he never noticed the shit going down -- like 19 or the 21 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudis. And not one was from Iraq.

And why did Commander AWOL go to such "special" trouble to fly the whole freakin bin Laden clan out of America just after 9/11, when every other flight was grounded? Why, why, why?

[eppur_se_muova]

150. Kissing kronies? But he looked deep into their eyes! He read their souls!

And he went with his gut.

I refer you to Miss Ivins for the track record on Bu**sh**'s gut.

[amandabeech]

161. Oil=money.

The Saudis have lots of both.

The Saudis could:

1. Stop selling us oil or very significantly reduce exports to the whole world.

2. Stop buying our guns & ammo.

3. Dump the dollar and start a panic.

These are three nice big sticks that the Saudis carry. If they choose to use even one of them against us now, not only will the Bush dynasty lose lots of money but the whole Pubbie party will take the blame in 2008.

I don't think that we even have a half a wet noodle in comparison to save the U.S., let along Bush and the Pubbies, too.

[azurnoir]

151. WH truthfulness

The Saudi's aren't going to help the Sunni's if we leave; they'll help them, whether or not we are there.
None of this makes sense, Iran will back the Shites no matter what, so what gives? Iran is supposedly our arch enemy, but we're backing the same group?

[Drum]

152. Hmmm...didn't the news make them out to be all smiles during that visit?

[Contrite]

166. I heard on Air America last night that the last time SA ambassador resigned

was on September 4, 2001 (shudder)

Did anyone read this about the Prince leaving because of Fitzgerald's investigation? I found this on Randi Rhode's message board!

http://www.cloakanddagger.de/CLOAKANDDAGGER.DE_TOM%20HENEGHAN/cloak_IEAR_dec13.htm

[Gregorian]

168. I hadn't seen that.

I have no idea if Cloak and dagger is a legit source. But it sounds like they are simply stating something that is already known.

I continue to be amazed at how bold and outrageous the connections are between everything this administration does.

I'd post this on it's own thread. I'm not really up on the details, but this is a current article. I think it's valid that it get posted.

[Contrite]

172. I can't post it--can you?

I haven't been here long enough to post. But I agree--it deserves a separate post.

[Tight_rope]

171. THAT IS SOME SERIOUS SHIT...A MUST READ...NO WONDER THE FRENCH

REFUSE TO GO ALONG WITH THIS TRUMP-UP WAR. "WE WERE DOOPED"!