Elizabeth Palmer Reports Iraqis Are Calling For Former Prime Minister Iyad Allawi To Retake The Helm

[ECH1969]

For kidnappers who know Iraq, there are thousands of places to hide their victims — whether they're the five contractors abducted Thursday in the south of Iraq or the 150 Iraqis snatched in broad daylight two days earlier in Baghdad. It's widely believed that militiamen loyal to the anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al Sadr, were responsible for the audacious mass kidnapping.

“The entire government is doing nothing,” said one Iraqi man. “We need a tough non-sectarian leader to disband the militias.” Iraqis everywhere are starting to say that former prime minister, Iyad Allawi, must come back.

“We need a strong forceful leader to end our troubles,” said one Iraqi woman. “We need a strong leader like Allawi who loves Iraq."

Allawi told CBS News the police force is so corrupted that ambushes and kidnappings are sure to increase. “We need to bring back law and order. And law and order needs to be brought back by using force,” he said. Allawi insists that means starting all over again — dismantling the police, arresting senior officers, and re-screening recruits. And soon, because the rot has already begun to spread.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/18/eveningnews/main2199190.shtml

[countmyvote4real]

1. Kind of makes you wonder whom the best man for that job might be.

“The entire government is doing nothing,” said one Iraqi man. “We need a tough non-sectarian leader to disband the militias.”

“We need a strong forceful leader to end our troubles,” said one Iraqi woman.

“Oops. We goofed,” is still waiting to be heard from the * administration although it is gaining momentum in the US at large.

[hedda_foil]

2. Who is this one Iraqi man and one Iraqi woman ---

Allawi's son and daughter? Or perhaps his wife and father? Sister in law and uncle? Do ya think maybe the Bushgang is maybe thinking about maybe bringing back Allawi maybe? Damn, some of this propaganda bs is easy to decipher.

[Roland99]

3. What a crock! Iraqis clamoring for a CIA-trained US puppet???

BS!

[ECH1969]

4. Saddam was helped by the CIA in the 1960s

Iraqis don't care if Allawi was in bed with the CIA or fucking Mossad at this point in time.

Iraqis want a strongman who is non-sectarian and will destory the militias that are butchering them and kidnapping them everyday. The Iraqi people are being slaughtered by militias run by the so called leaders of the current Iraqi government. Iraqis want security for themselves and their families.

Allawi fits the bill of someone non-sectarian who will destory the militias, that is why they want him back.

[Roland99]

5. He'll do worse than try and destroy the militias

I don't see any way to be successful in destroying the militias without a HUGE loss of life on all sides.

[ECH1969]

6. If the militias are not disbanded Iraq is going to turn into Somalia

al-Sadr himself only controls about half of the people who call themselves part of the Madhi Army. Then there are breakaway militias who once were members of the Madhi Army and now are under a different name.

Basically, there are hundreds of little gangs around Iraqi today answerable to no one, killing people for an endless number of reasons and kidnapping people for money.

Iraq as a state or even as three states can not exist with hundreds of gangs controlling territory.

[Kagemusha]

7. Seriously, if Iraq can't exist like that, it's too late. Iraq's gone. It's through.

Because those gangs do exist, and they are the first responders doing the most to keep the people of their communities alive every day. Yes, the killings and the terror are bad now, but they would be much worse if one militia did unilateral disarmament and the enemies of that given community were allowed to run wild (Sunni vs. Shiite, Shiite vs. Sunni, doesn't matter which, the result would end up the same). Why is that? Because the US, the Iraqi police, and the Iraqi army sure as hell are not going to protect these communities from harm. The highly imperfect and vengeful protection they currently receive at least are from people who live there, not who patrol and then go back and hide in their fortified bases afterwards.

So if that's the standard, if that's the measure of Iraq's existence, then Iraq's gone. It's finished. It is long past saving.

[ECH1969]

8. You don't understand my friend the power of fear

As long as Iraq has an Army that isn't controlled by the militias the militias can be put down.

Saddam like violence on the part of the Iraqi Army against a few of the big militias would scare the bejesus out of the other gangs and cause some of them to disband, but most would decide to go underground with their criminal activities and would have to be dealt with more like organized crime instead of militiary threats.

The selective use of terror by governments in that region works, that is why Saddam attacked Halabja with chemical weapons. After he did that every Kurdish town and city in Iraq shit their pants and quieted down their activities against Saddam big time.

[Kagemusha]

9. Well forget Mahdi, how is the Army not a Badr bastion as it is?

Taking the Mahdi Army down - which will take work - and handing the whole of the country to SCIRI's militia instead, with its heavy police and military penetration, well.. maybe that's the ideal for some people but, it's still a militia. Just taking that down would mean cutting the heart of the Shiite movement out of government.

Far from me to underestimate the power of fear but, your statement suggests Iraq has an army that IS NOT controlled by the militias. I would submit that the army heavily employs members of militias and that the officers have little power to make Shiite units do what the militias do not want them to do. That may not be "controlled by the militias" but, I just don't see how Maliki, a Shiite himself, can make the army treat Shiites like Saddam did, since that's what it would take.

[ECH1969]

10. Your version of the Iraqi Army is not reality

Half the officer corps of the Iraqi Army are Sunni members of the old Army and about a third of them are Kurdish. In fact the Iraqi Army today looks in many of ways alot like the old Iraqi Army with Sunni officers and generals at the top with lots of Shia foot soldiers at the very bottom. Its the officers that control an Army.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/20/AR2005112001054_pf.html

[Kagemusha]

11. Um, you're aware the army there has a certain desertion problem?

Lots of Shia foot soldiers at the very bottom isn't encouraging if a division's ordered to invade Sadr City or some fool's errand like that. "It's the officers that control an Army" is a platitude...

Even Saddam couldn't beat Sadr City into submission. I don't understand how you think these pawns are going to manage.

[ECH1969]

12. Desertion is a problem because the US won't let the Iraqi Army punish deserters

Shia footsoldiers under Saddam put down a Shia uprising in 1993 killing hundreds of thousands.

The reason why the Shia soldiers didn't desert the Army back then was it was punishable by death. Today there is no punishment for an Iraqi soldier who collects his paycheck and leaves the Army. That was a US decision not an Iraqi one. If the Iraqi Army was to be used against the militias the US would have to let the Iraqi government put the old rules back in place.

[Kagemusha]

13. You think they'll kill their own kind for desertion?

Maliki and all the top Shiite leaders suffered, and their families suffered, under Saddam, and you think they're gonna go killing their own kind for desertion just so they can send a Sunni-led army to crush the Shiite militias, which are what keeps the lot of them protected from the army and each other? Who do you think runs that country in the first place? You'd need a new Iraqi government, not this one which was elected to a four year term.

[ECH1969]

15. I am not talking about the Maliki government cracking down on the militias

The Maliki government is totally weak and will not crack down on the militias or even the insurgents. Maliki in June stopped the Iraqi Army and US troops from cleaning out Ramadi. Maliki like Jaafari is a weak an indecisive man.

No, the whole point of this thread is if Allawi is able to coup the Maliki government with support of the Iraqi Army could he then shut down the militias. Allawi would be perfectly willing to reinstate the death sentance for deserters.

Its not too long ago America had the death sentance for deserters.

[Kagemusha]

17. ...Even if this fantasy were possible in the real world...

For this to work as you envision, Allawi would have to rule as a monster to make even Saddam pale, something like Pol Pot levels of slaughter on the US taxpayer's dime until the insurgents, the Baathists, all of the mainstream Shiite religious parties and all their component militias, are crushed, not to mention that such an act would fly in the face of Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani, raising the specter of jihad in the heart of the Shiite holy land, to say nothing of Iranian support for its Shiite brothers. It's not a matter of shutting down the militias; it's a matter of shutting down every entrenched domestic group (excluding Kurdistan for the sake of argument) in Iraq. It's comparable to taking over the United States in a coup and waging simultaneous war on the Democratic and Republican parties - in other words, just about everyone who is someone.

Just saying.

[ECH1969]

19. Fantasy?

Assad's father put down a similar problem to the Madhi Army it was called the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood.

Read up on the history of the Middle East and you will know how Assad's father did it and it wasn't nice.

And, your qoute about making Saddam pale tells me you need to read up on the history of Iraq as well.

[Kagemusha]

21. The US' man in Iraq slaughtering 20,000 people and leveling a town?

Problem.

Assad's problems were outside his capitol, not inside. And Iraq has a much higher population. 20,000 dead people wouldn't even begin to cover it.

Apples and oranges.

Edit: And re: Saddam paling. Yes, I meant what I wrote. The country is in a far more anarchic state than it ever was under Saddam, with the possibility of EXTREMELY brief exceptions such as the ill-fated, Daddy Bush-encouaged, but not Daddy Bush-backed, Shiite revolt of 1991. And if you haven't noticed, the Iraqi Army has less than 100 tanks and no combat helicopters to its name. Hard to be an iron-fisted dictator in a flat country without tanks.

Edit 2: It's late, this thread's long and we're discussing abstracts, but I want to say something I've avoided because I think it's good to clear the record.

I don't think Allawi would succeed with this plan because I don't think he's man enough to be that brutal. If he is, more shame to him.

[ECH1969]

22. You need to read up far better on the history of the region

This is not the first time a country in the region has been anarchic sometimes they stay chaotic for years to decades. And, then a strongman often with lots of outside help slaughters his enemies and unifies the country.

The biggest thing you don't get is that it doesn't take slaughtering all or even most of your potental enemies to cement you as the new top dog. Just enough of them to make the others fear you and try to make deals with you.

"Tawfik Zeki, a Shiite water tanker driver, said that "the only language we Iraqis understand is the language of power and an iron fist."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-scenarios19nov19,0,6407945.story?page=3&track=tothtml

[Roland99]

23. Baghdad, if not all of Iraq, is in full-on Civil War. Watch this: Death Squads in Iraq >>>>>>>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2756497

[daleo]

14. Maybe they should let Saddam go and hang Bush instead

They both are responsible for the deaths of plenty of Iraqi civilians, but at least Saddam kept order.

P.S. I am being sort of sarcastic.

[magellan]

16. The Iraqi Constitution won't allow it

From Riverbend's blog, September 23, 2005: http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2005_09_01_riverbendblog_archive.html

Article (65):

The candidate for the president's post must:

1st -- be Iraqi by birth from Iraqi parents.
2nd -- be legally competent and have reached the age of 40.
3rd -- have a good reputation and political experience and be known for his integrity, rectitude, justice and devotion to the homeland.
4th -- not have been convicted of a crime that violates honor.

“Be Iraqi by birth from Iraqi parents” is significant in that it emphasizes that BOTH parents must be Iraqi (this is more pronounced in the Arabic version of the constitution with the use of grammar ‘abouwayn iraqiayn’). While this seems very natural it is noteworthy because it means that secular American darling Iyad Allawi is out of the picture as candidate for the presidency and the prime ministry. It is very well-known in Iraq that Allawi’s mother is Lebanese from a prominent Lebanese family (and related to Chalabi’s wife).

[Eugene]

18. The people cry out for a strongman and Iyad Allawi just happens to be handy.

The primary headline is "Kidnappings Shake Iraqi Confidence."

Some Iraqis may be calling out for a strongman, but the
clearest call in this report comes from Allawi himself.
Allawi has little political support from inside Iraq.

[ECH1969]

20. Political support comes from having your own militia in Iraq

If you have your own militia you have political support.

The Iraqi Army is a militia on steroids. You coup the government you have your own militia on steroids.

Also the article in questions headline has changed since when it was posted they bumped the top one down.

[NOLADEM]

24. Sounds like they are describing Saddam to me.

It's a fucking Shakespearean tragedy that we spent 2,900 American lives, half a million Iraqi lives, $1 Trillion Dollars and all of our credibility on a war to remove one non-sectarian, CIA-backed strongman in order to replace him with another.

What a terrible, terrible waste. Iraq is undoubtedly worse off. As are we. No reasonable person can argue this. Now, even the BEST case scenario is a worse situation than the day before we invaded.

Bush should be in the Hague.

Are Dems gonna repeal the Hague Invasion Act?