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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 08:46 PM
Original message
School Safety Drill Upsets Some Parents
Edited on Sat Oct-28-06 08:50 PM by lostnfound
This is unbelievable and scares me deeply in innumerable ways. And I am really suspicious that this activity is not dreampt up in a small-town police dept.
http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%...

WYOMING, Mich. (AP) - A school safety drill that included police officers in riot gear with weapons has caused concern among some parents who say it was too realistic and frightened some students.

Police in the western Michigan community of Wyoming entered two classrooms at Lee Middle and High School on Thursday and announced there was a threat to the school, The Grand Rapids Press reported.

Students, who were unaware police were conducting a drill, were taken from the classroom into the halls, patted down by officers and asked what they had in their pockets, the newspaper said.

"Some of these kids were so scared, they just about wet their pants," said Marge Bradshaw, a parent with four children in Godfrey-Lee Schools. "I think it's pure wrong that the students and parents were not informed of this."

Officers wore protective gear, including vests and helmets, and carried rifles that were unloaded and marked with colored tape to indicate they were not live weapons, the newspaper said.

(more)

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goddess40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bring the republican scare fest to the kids
everyone be afraid be very afraid as you have nothing to fear but the republicans
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Holy shit! This was a 'drill' using students as guinea pigs?
That's beyond the ken and totally outrageous, to traumatize kids in the name of ... what?
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Absolutely right. The cops were being drilled, not the students.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
52. Next thing will be the fire department starting a school on fire
to show that they can save the kids in the school.

Or maybe they will instruct the adults to keep quiet while the fire is going so they can see how long it takes for a student to report a fire.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Bingo. NT
NT
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WHEN CRABS ROAR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. Looking for terrorists?
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pooja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. Oh man..this is crazy. why would they do this?
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SoCalifer Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. I see it as
Conditioning...

I believe its conditioning for both the officers and the public. And you always pay close attention to the children in a society you wish to socially engineer.
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #14
30. Bingo!!!!
And notes are being made as to how all the people (students, parents, police officers, school officials, general public) 'involved' react (or not react) to this too ~ of this you can be POSITIVE!
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
31. That's how it 'feels' to me, too.
Taken in naiive isolation, I might buy it as an innocent overreach.

But after 5+ years of more and more intrusions on privacy, and the militarization of police forces, and the research into crowd control weapons, and the push for a federal database of student records, and various new laws, the whole is greater (or more disturbing) than the sum of the parts. It's a conditioning program, or a dry run.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. why do I think this didn't happen at a white upper-class school?
I dunno; guess I'm just cynical that way.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
41. Wyoming is a more white suburb.
It's got a lot of richer kids. I think they're worried about a Columbine kind of thing.
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goddess40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #41
48. instead of dealing with the real problem
they try and figure out how to kill the kids that have reached their limit of being tortured by bullies - why don't they worry about preventing it?
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. I entirely agree.
I had a student once write me his suicide note for an in-class writing assignment (third one I got in my three years of teaching and five years of college training). He was that depressed from the bullying he'd been going through. I'd had no idea it was that bad (there were hints but nothing specific), so I marched it down to his counsellor, and we dealt with it.

Kids shouldn't get that far--they should be helped long before anything happens.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #41
51. thanks knitter, but I don't think richer schools have 76% of the students getting free
or reduced-fee lunches? Although to be sure, according to the list I checked, there are a few schools in the area where the percentage is as high as 94%.

Drill or not, the type of random search they performed on the kids is unconstitutional, according to what I have read, especially the pat down.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Hmmm. I didn't know it was that high.
That's about the same percentage of my high school, and we had our fair share of bomb threats and all (late eighties--it was a fad). Still, Wyoming isn't known for being a poor district. It sure doesn't look that way to me when I go there.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #53
66. Knitter, see post #57 below -- seems to be poorer whites and Latinos
really not surprising if that is the case? I just don't see police doing anything like this in the Park Cities of Dallas, for example. No freakin way.
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BlueStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'm so slow on the news...
I can't believe this happened in the city next to me.

Blue
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. do you know anything about the area where the school is located?
just wondering.
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BlueStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. Here's a location of the school
Though it is listing 'C' as Godfrey-Lee Public

http://www.google.com/maps?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=lee+mid...

The area is predominately middle class and white if I recall. Though there is a growing Latino presence and lower class population growing.

Here is a link, though I am not sure if it is accurate.

http://muninetguide.com/states/michigan/municipality/Wy...

Blue
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. thanks for the info, although I think this is probably a poorer school
I also tried to check it out, and 76% of the students get a free or reduced-fee lunch. Perhaps someone here knows more about what that means for the economic background of the students.
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BlueStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
57. I took a closer look at the map I have here
Since it is off of Burton, in the western side of town, it is indeed a poorer side of the city. I do believe it is mostly poor whites and Hispanics. My sister lives on Stafford just off Burton and that is what the demographics are.

Blue
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #57
65. thanks so much, BlueStorm, for that additional info.
I don't want to stereotype, but the parent who called it "pure wrong" (and damn straight it was) just did not sound like an upper-class professional.
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BlueStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. You are welcome Ms. Clio...
Like I said I wasn't even aware of it. I am sure my sister wasn't either as it was so near her area of residence. Certainly it wasn't discussed by either her or my mom so I am not sure if it was even on the news. Our local media has a funny habit sometimes of leaving the important things out.

Blue
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. 69,000 plus in this city
84% white-28% of the population is under 18years old...
http://www.answers.com/topic/wyoming-michigan
Wyoming: Weather and Much More from Answers.com

http://www.ci.wyoming.mi.us /
Welcome to the City of Wyoming, Michigan!


gestapo cops putting the fear of the state into the children...really how can the adults be so fucking stupid?
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
10. Why were the children patted down?
..."The purpose was to show how we will evacuate the classroom, not to assault the classroom," Carmody said...

How to evacuate a classroom? Why would the children need to be patted down during an evacuation?

I suspect it is illegal to pat down children if they are not suspected of crimes.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I believe it has something to do with a new law
I can't quite recall the details! But it was about giving the schools the authority to conduct random searches or something along those lines.
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Lifelong Protester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. We cannot do "random searches" of students, especially
patting them down. It is correct that we may randomly search lockers, and with a reasonable suspicion, look through a kid's backpack. Still with reasonable suspicion we can ask a student to empty his or her pockets, but if they refuse we have to go through law enforcement, and depending on the age of the student, we would have to have a parent's permission (if they are over 16 the laws change a bit).

Someone I would guess used very poor judgment here in not notifying the parents or picking a different time to do this. We have the various law enforcemnt, paramedics, fire, etc. do these kinds of drills (practicing for intruders, etc., on Saturdays or in the summer. We ask students if they would like to volunteer, with parental permission, to be a part of the drill.

The most we do with all kids are 'holds', where all staff lock the doors, but continue on with teaching, and the next level is a lockdown, which we have not done yet as we have kids as young as 4 in our building. We have to weigh the possible trauma of the drill against safety, and it is a tough call.

Oh, and we have had two bomb threats, so we know how to evacuate in a hurry. No one was patted down, BTW.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Not to worry, you'll be able to conduct random searches soon! According to HR5295
Which passed the House last month.

Here is the ACLU's take on this legislation:

This Legislation Will give Principals and Teachers the Authority to Violate Students Rights Against Unreasonable Searches and Seizures as well as Their Right to Privacy.

Maintaining safe schools is an important objective of school administrators and communities around the country. Although the most recent version of the Student Teacher Safety Act of 2006 attempts to assist teachers and school officials in their efforts to maintain discipline and keep children safe while attending school, its vague legislative language would lead school officials to believe that they have the authority to conduct searches that would be at odds with the standards set out by the Supreme Court in New Jersey v. TLO, 469 U.S. 325 (1985). The Supreme Court in TLO held that the Fourth Amendment prohibition against unreasonable search and seizures applies to public school officials. The TLO decision strikes a balance between a school districts need to sustain an environment conducive to learning and a students right to privacy by requiring that school officials have only reasonable suspicion before searching students on school grounds.

H.R. 5295 is consistent with some of the requirements outlined by the Court in the TLO case to strike the balance between the two often-competing interests of student privacy and school discipline and safety. The bill requires that school officials have reasonable suspicion before conducting a search of a student. In addition, the bill includes language similar to that in the TLO decision, which would limit the measures used by teachers to search students to those considered reasonably related to the searchs objectives, without being excessively intrusive in light of the students age, sex and the nature of the offense.

However, the bill describes too broadly the purpose and the scope of the search that school administrators can conduct. The Student Teacher Safety Act would allow for school officials to search students to ensure that classrooms, school buildings, school property and students remain free from the threat of all weapons, dangerous materials, or illegal narcotics. While no one is debating the importance of keeping schools free of weapons, drugs and dangerous materials, this can not be done a in a manner that violates a students right to be free from unreasonable searches and their right to privacy. The bill suggests that school officials can conduct random, wide scale searches of students without having any individualized suspicion that a particular student to be searched is participating in criminal activity or breaking the school rules. Only general reasonable suspicion of crime would be required. This would open a Pandoras box. For example, a student might tell a high school principal that drugs are being sold on school grounds by an unspecified person. Under H.R. 5295, the principal could mistakenly believe that he has the authority to conduct a pat-down search of all students as they enter the building the next morning in an effort to keep the school free from the threat of all weapons, dangerous materials, or illegal narcotics. Although, the TLO decision does not specifically decide the issue of whether school officials need individualized suspicion to search students, the Court does point out that an exception to the individualized suspicion requirement under the Fourth Amendment are only acceptable when the privacy interest at stake are minimal and protections in place to ensure a persons privacy is secure.<1> H.R.5295 does not ensuring that the privacy interests of students are protected to the extent that individualized suspicions is not necessary in the context of a school officials conducting searches. Additionally, several courts around the country have held that school officials do need individualize suspicion in order to search a student or his or her personal effects.<2>
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. A question about "lockdown"..
Would that scenario specifically entail not allowing parents retrieve their children?

If so, under what circumstances and for how long is that portrayed?

I've been curious about it for a while.
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momster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Short answer -- yes.
We had an 'event' here a week or so ago where two different children in different parts of the county decided that it would be a good day to pull a prank. One made a bomb threat, one reported a 'stranger with a gun' near his school. The county put all the schools on 'blue alert' which means heightened security, no one allowed into the building unescorted, etc. But some schools went to a higher level. When that happens, the school calls the parents (though the radio usually gets the message there first) not to pick up their kids but to gather in a specific place to wait. They don't want kids or parents in the halls during a 'threat'.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
38. Strip seacher, to be precise. Search on DU or Google it...
iirc it's buried in the Warner Defense Bill. I'd find it but don't have time right now.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. Terrorizing 8th graders.
Just what parents are paying their tax dollars to the police for (sarcasm.)
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. I agree the exercise was stupid but if a criminal had killed children, would you have
been equally critical of the police for not preventing that hypothetical tragedy?

My guess is the police notified the proper school administrator and she/he failed to or decided not to notify teachers and students.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. non, meet sequitur
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I asked a question. Is it that difficult to understand that the inference
of my question is logical given the several hysterical replies on this thread?

Perhaps you simply don't know what non sequitur means.

Have a pleasant evening.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. It means "does not follow" and your question did not follow from the case presented
the police were practicing a random search of those kids, not protecting them from some hypothetical intruder.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #18
34. See my reply #33.
Have a nice day. :hi:
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #34
50. okay
you too :hi:
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Actually, I had trouble understanding your question, too.
Edited on Sat Oct-28-06 11:38 PM by Pithlet
I'm not questioning or judging what your stance may be on this issue, I'm just offering this because I'm confused as well. Police failing to prevent a tragedy, and police conducting a drill without notifying parents and students are two very different events that could easily draw very different responses from people. So, I don't know what you're inferring about people who feel differently about one event over the other. Or should they feel the same?
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. My question was logical because police were training themselves and school officials
against a possible attempt by someone to harm students.

So someone, almost certainly a school official but I don't know that, made a mistake and students were frightened.

That's very unfortunate but at least law enforcement was trying to do its job.

Law enforcement has major problems preparing for the next school tragedy and most departments have neither the special personnel nor equipment to handle that task. Moreover, each school tragedy so far has been a special case so developing procedures will be very difficult.

You might find it interesting to read "10 myths about school shootings" by MSNBC, 3 Oct. 06 and a discussion of that article at DU's thread 10 myths about school shootings.
Myth No. 1. "He didn't fit the profile."
Myth No. 2. "He just snapped."
Myth No. 3. "No one knew."
Myth No. 4. "He hadn't threatened anyone."
Myth No. 5. "He was a loner."
Myth No. 6. "He was crazy."
Myth No. 7. "If only we'd had a SWAT team or metal detectors."
Myth No. 8. "He'd never touched a gun."
Myth No. 9. "We did everything we could to help him."
Myth No. 10. "School violence is rampant."

IMO, any comment that criticized law enforcement was inappropriate.

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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #33
44. Law Enforcement is never wrong and never open to criticism? REALLY?
That's a very dangerous attitude.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. You obviously did not read the context of the discussion to which I replied.
Superficial reading can lead to erroneous conclusions, a very dangerous practice.

Have a nice day. :hi:
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #47
58. My apologies. It is unfortunate that I am wrong precisely 1/12 of the time.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #47
61. We all read it very carefully and understood YOUR post.
Edited on Sun Oct-29-06 02:56 PM by TankLV
What IANdb1 said is the ONLY way to interpret what you said.

It was spot on!

What we don't appreciate is automatic knee jerk SUPPORT of the "police".

Support is EARNED. And from what I've seen too many times lately, support is UNDESERVED. PERIOD.

Cops are human beings, and are FALLIBLE. They are given all sorts of SPECIAL PRIVILEGES, just because they are cops, from accepting THEIR "word" above anyone else's. There are too many instances of abuse. FAR too many.

Kinda like the "my country right or wrong" bullshit.

There are good cops and unfortunately too many bad cops...
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. If you are the spokesperson for "all", then the group you represent doesn't read
very carefully.

I said, "any comment that criticized law enforcement was inappropriate." My statement was clearly in the narrow context of this thread, nothing more.

Unfortunately, some of the replies made blanket condemnations of all police, e.g. "gestapo cops putting the fear of the state into the children". I see nothing in the article that justifies a comment like that.

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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #63
72. Okay, please explain so we're all on the same page
Are you saying:

1) It is unfair to paint ALL law enforcement with the same brush as the thugs who conducted this "drill"
or
2) The cops who conducted this "drill" did nothing wrong
or
3) Other
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. My reply was to TankLV however if you are part of the "all" that TankLV
claims to represent then I'll answer once again.

Answer 1 is loaded because nothing in the article suggests the law enforcement officers were "thugs" as you assert. However I do believe it "is unfair to paint ALL law enforcement with the same brush" just as it is wrong to paint ALL of any group based on race, creed, color, national origin, sex, political affiliation, or beliefs with the same brush.

Answer 2 cannot be selected because of insufficient evidence however IMO nothing in the article suggests the cops who conducted this "drill" did anything wrong.

I believe the two statements above qualify as "Other" so I'll take number 3.

Thanks for the exchange, have a nice day.

Goodbye, :hi:
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. Some people just naturally feel more comfortable submitting to authority. n/t
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. ....and first class cavity searches
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #44
60. It sure is!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #33
59. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
78. Jody, would it be "okay" for the Police to break into your place of business,
order all the employees to empty their pockets, ask them questions?

Then you find out that your boss approved the whole thing.

They tell you that this was done to "protect" you - to "train" the police.

Do you think that would be "okay" to you?
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
19. Patted down? Questioned about the contents of their pockets?
Um, isn't that, like, unconstitutional without the parents there? I understand that lockers are school property and fair game for warrentless searches, but cops poking fingers into kids' pockets and groping their bodies?

Now, I love cops, and I think that exercises like this should be as realistic as reasonably possible. I remember in high school, just before prom night, my high school had the graduationg class troop out to the sports field and sit on the bleachers.

On the field was a big lumpy thing covered by a tarp, and a couple of portable speakers on tripods had been set up. Once we were settled in, the tarp was yanked back.

Several wrecked cars from a local junkyard were underneath, in positions indicating they had collided at high speed. Several bodies could be seen in the cars.

Seconds later, sirens wailed and the local police showed up. All radio communications were rebroadcast over the speakers, so we could hear the requests for ambulances and fire-rescue units. As the police began trying to rescue some of the student volunteers "injured" in the accident, the fire department and ambulances began arriving on scene, lights strobing and sirens screaming. Some of the blood-stained "victims" were put on gurneys and hauled away, others had to be cut from the vehicles with the jaws of life and saws. IIRC, one or two were put on gurneys and then covered with sheets. One student played the drunk driver who escaped uninjured, wailing and crying over the maimed and killed.

I don't think any accidents happened that year during prom.

To compare what happened to me to what happened in Michigan, all of the graduating class would have been forced to sit in wrecked cars while firemen sweated and struggled to "rescue" them, then worked over by paramedics (including the IV), then driven to the hospital, and finally (and perhaps worst of all) forced to fill out insurance forms and reading "Highlights for Children" during a 8-hour wait at Bridgeport Hospital.

My point here is that one of these was over the top.

The police already KNOW how to pat down people, and it wouldn't have hurt the students to be informed a few minutes before the drill started. How many parents received surroupticious text messages like "shooting @ school i'm ok"?

Now, I fully encourage student/administration/police/teacher/paramedic lockdown and evactuation drills so that everybody can practice, learn the layout and procedures, refine the evacutation procedures, etc. Hell, we did nuke drills for like 40 years during the Cold War. But if the cops want to practice the tactical sweeping of the school, they should do it on a weekend when the school is empty. Find sniper positions, set up triage locations, etc., on a Saturday or during the summer.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. the kids and the parents should sue the "patter-downers" for . . .
sexual abuse . . . because that's sure as hell what would happen if a teacher or another adult tried that . . .

you know it's bad when they're trying to instill "The Fear" at such an early age . . . they've turned FDR's "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" on its head and made it the centerpiece of their government . . .

because fear -- and the fear of fear -- is the only thing keeping BushCo in power right now . . . once they lose that, they're toast . . .

and the toaster could very well pop on Election Day, 2006 . . .
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Plus, it's all like a prison
Uniforms, lockdowns, photo ID badges, ID numbers, surpression of dissent and debate, subject to random search and seizure without a warrant or probable cause...

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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #23
39. The USSC made the personal search of students without cause
Edited on Sun Oct-29-06 07:16 AM by elehhhhna
a crime a few years ago. They can't even walk drug dogs through a classroom or around the kids. This calls for a big fat lawsuit.
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slaveplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #19
36. Have you read the bylaws
of public schools under the federal system lately. They don't make them easily available, you'll probably have to go down to your child's school(I'm not referring to the 'Code of conduct', which is bad enough). They'll make your head spin. When your child is in public school, they're lucky if they have the same rights as a federal inmate.

These drills have been going on for some time now and they are increasing in severity(Nazi dogs barking inches from face, officers screaming profanities, mass warrantless searches, etc..). I don't see much difference in the intent of these from the intent of an institutional shakedown (cell block, psych ward, etc...)

When the shit really hits the fan(martial law, quarantine, etc..), the children WILL be held hostage in the public system under a code red situation.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
56. No, my kid is only 2
Somebody rich needs to give 8 or nine figures to the ACLU, and quick. Warren Buffet, we need you!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
26. This is an illegal search. We still have such a thing as
"illegal search", right? Or, do we?
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. perhaps not; see HR5295
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UrbScotty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
28. Wow. Near my hometown of Kentwood. (nt)
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BlueStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
71. Yeah I live in Kentwood too...
Which is why I was surprised to see this on DU and not on the news.

Blue
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
37. THAT is not a "Drill." That is a drug sweep disguised as a drill.
Who the fuck do they think they're kidding?
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DawgHouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. Bingo!
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
40. Yeah, like Wyoming is high on the terror list . . .
:eyes: Seriously, it's just a suburb. I used to go up there to a yarn shop, and trust me, it's not a high scare place.

I can't understand why the police would do that or why the administration would allow it. There's no reason to act like it's going to happen there and they need to practice.

I would be furious if they did that to my kids. I'm sure the school board will be getting some heat.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
43. Get children accustomed to such things and as adults they will
just accept it as the way it's always been

Those of us that recall a time when we had more rights are getting older...and the eldest among us with memories of even more rights are dying as I type

but the children, with years ahead of them - can be conditioned into thinking this is the way it's always been...it's easier to indoctrinate children.

Memory is a funny thing. The minds capacity for survival by adaptation through defense mechanisms is damn near unlimited

It becomes red if we're told it's red repeatedly and all the evidence around us says it is red

even when it's really blue



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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Or, "there are four lights"
I wonder how these laws allowing police to do these things apply to seniors who are over the age of 18. Can't they say, "No, sorry, I'm an adult, and you can't search me or my effects without a warrant"?
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. They should be able to....
I know when I turned 18 in my senior year of HS that I stopped bringing notes from home when I needed to leave early and simply signed myself out. Legally. I was 18,legally an adult, and the school knew and accepted that. But that was then...and a whole lot has changed since then. Not for the better either.

I am fairly certain that 18 is still considered a legal adult in the US.





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slaveplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #46
64. Not while the adult is still enrolled...
read the bylaws, It's different now than it was in the past.

The only way the school system recognizes an 18 year old student as an adult nowadays, is if the student petitions the school system and can prove that they are financially self sufficient enough to support themselves as an adult. It also requires parental notification.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #45
76. Was that a veiled "Babylon 5" reference?
OT-- Was that a veiled "Babylon 5" reference? If so, very cool!
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. No, a Star Trek: TNG reference...
Picard was captured by Cardassians and psychologically tortured to try to acknowledge the "right" amount of lights. They failed to break him, and were forced to let him go.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
49. In my school district, when we have drills now
some of the teachers wear vests with labels on them

FIRST AID
REUNIFICATION
BUILDING SECURITY
MENTAL HEALTH

I spoke out against this plan when they first told us about it last year. I thought these vests would scare the younger kids. I was told no, this shows we are are organized and have an efficient plan to protect our kids.

The truth is that if our school is attacked, or catches fire or gets hit by a tornado, it won't matter what vests the adults are wearing. Those vests won't save any lives or prevent a catastrophe.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #49
69. No, but they do help people to know that you belong there.
That was one problem at Columbine - there were so many adults running around trying to collect their kids, no one knew who was supposed to be in charge. The vests help police and emergency rescue know who they can go to for information. During our drill, they really did work pretty well.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
55. Hmmmm.... Germany 1930's?
Do Republicans all study the tactics of nazi Germany or what?
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #55
79. This is a typical "Police State" activity - "conditioning" the kiddies
Edited on Mon Oct-30-06 08:42 PM by file83
to this kind of submission to the state. Welcome to BushWorld.
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
62. Jezusss!
1 in 8 children suffers from anxiety, how f-ing ignorant are some people?
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HuffleClaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
67. "patted down by officers and asked what they had in their pockets"
holy GESTAPO batman!

seriously, that is just plain fucking wrong.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
68. You NEVER do these drills without telling kids and parents.
What dumbass was in charge of this? We did a drill in one of our schools last year, but only after 9 months of planning, one tabletop practice and much communication with parents and community about what would be happening.

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