AP: Many Follow U.S. Example On Detainees

[Hissyspit]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/UN_TORTURE?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

Many Follow U.S. Example on Detainees

By NICK WADHAMS
Associated Press Writer

UNITED NATIONS (AP) -- Several governments around the world have tried to rebut criticism of how they handle detainees by claiming they are only following the U.S. example in the war on terror, the U.N. anti-torture chief said Monday.

Manfred Nowak, the U.N. special investigator on torture, said that when he criticizes governments for their questionable treatment of detainees, they respond by telling him that if the United States does something, it must be all right. He would not name any countries except for Jordan.

"The United States has been the pioneer, if you wish, of human rights and is a country that has a high reputation in the world," Nowak told a news conference. "Today, many other governments are kind of saying, 'But why are you criticizing us, we are not doing something different than what the United States is doing?'"

- snip -

The remarks were the latest in a tense back-and-forth between Nowak and the United States. He has been an outspoken critic of U.S. detainee policy, chastising the United States for maintaining secret prisons. He has also been skeptical about new legislation that would protect detainees from blatant abuse - such as rape and torture - but does not require automatic legal counsel and specifically bars detainees from protesting their detentions in federal courts.

- snip -

He has said the United States must close its Guantanamo Bay detention facility and refused an invitation to visit because he would not be allowed to interview detainees. Nowak has reported that reliable accounts indicate suspected terror detainees being held there have been tortured.

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[LynnTheDem]

1. If it's good enuf for the US of A to do...

then it's good enuf for other nations to do...and to US citizens.

[John Gauger]

8. That's what we need to be afraid of.

NOw they are less afraid to do that to our citizens.

[saigon68]

16. AND YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH IT TOO

The US Military has never fixed blame for thiss Man's BEATING DEATH


The thugs who did this got a couple on months.

Their Officers who directed it received only promotions for a job "WELL DONE"

[tblue]

2. When the US gov't tortures another human, it tortures me

When it sends young people to war unprotected and won't let them come home, it does that to me

When it uses white phosphorus on Iraqi women and children, it uses it on me and my children

When it leaves families in New Orleans or Darfur or Fallujah to live in fear and despair, it does the same thing to my family

[John Gauger]

9. That sounds like that Jesus feller-

I hear good things about him. No one ever has an ill word to say.

[Supersedeas]

11. But Al Gonzo says water boarding is now civilized b/c of the new law

[Rose Siding]

3. See? We ARE still a relevant, world-leading nation

:bounce:

:(

[civildisoBDence]

4. Oh Rose, that's wicked!

But right on target.

I teach public speaking, and lately several students have defended DUHbya's policies by citing national security.

What we gain in short-term national security, we lose in long-term national infamy.

Newsprism

[Rose Siding]

6. You can say that again.

This note from a reserve soldier lays one element of that truth out plainly-

I was deployed in my reserve unit (USMCR) as part of operation Desert Storm and Desert Shield. Marine infantry, and we were on the front lines, supposedly to guard a gunship base, but really, though, the gunships guarded us.

Not too much later, it was time to take prisoners. One of the platoons went north, and when they came back, there were stories about how Iraqi soldiers lined the roads, trying to surrender. I spent a week guarding Iraqi men in a makeshift prison camp, a way-station really, and more than I could count. They didn't look like they were starving or dehydrated. Apparently, once the ground war began, they just pitched their weapons and headed south at first opportunity. The more I've thought about it, the more I realize that they knew bone deep that they'd get fair treatment. We gave them MREs (with the pork entree's removed) but almost immediately some Special Forces guys arrived and set up a real chow line for them. We gave each man a blanket, (I kept an extra as a souvie) and I think I saw a Special Forces doc giving some of them a once over.

Once, only once, one of them got all irritated and tried to get in one of the Corporal's faces, loud. (I was a lance-corporal). He wouldn't back down, so the Corporal gave him an adjustment, a rifle butt-stroke to his gut, not hard, but he went down. The Corporal sent me for the medic. The guy was ok, and now calm (or at least understanding the situation), and hand-signed that he was out of smokes and really, really needed one... Not a bad guy, just stressed-dumb and needing a smoke. None of the others prisoners in the camp even registered it.

We went north to mop up not long after that. I saw the Iraqi weapons: rocket launchers a little smaller than semi-trailers, hidden in buildings, AKs in piles, big Soviet mortars and anti-tank mines, everywhere but unarmed. They had food too. Pasteurized milk to drink, but most gone bad by then. Some of the mortar rounds were still in crates. They had long trenches that were hard to see in the dunes, bunkers with maps, fire-plans laid out, and blankets, all placed with decent vantage for command and control. They even had wire laid for land-line communications. The point is, they could have fought. Not won, no they couldn't have won, but they could have fought. Instead, they chose to surrender.

Looking back, I think that one of the main drivers in these men's heads was that they knew, absolutely, that they'd get fair treatment from us, the Americans. We were the good guys. The Iraqis on the line knew they had an out, they had hope, so they could just walk away. (A few did piss themselves when someone told them we were Marines. Go figure.) Still, they knew Americans would be fair, and we were.

Thinking hard on what I now know of history, psychology, and the meanness of politics, that reputation for fairness was damn near unique in world history. Can you tell me of any major military power that had it? Ever? France? No. Think Algeria. The UK? Sorry, Northern Ireland, the Boxer Rebellion in China... China or Russia. I don't think so. But America had it. If those men had even put up token resistance, some of us would not have come back. But they didn't even bother, and surrendered at least in part because of our reputation. Our two hundred year old reputation for being fair and humane and decent. All the way back to George Washington, and from President George H.W. Bush all the way down to a lance-corporal jarhead at the front.

Its gone now, even from me. I can't get past that image of the Iraqi, in the hood with the wires and I'm not what you'd call a sensitive type. You know the picture. And now we have a total bust-out in the White House, and a bunch of rubber-stamps in the House, trying to make it so that half-drowning people isn't torture. That hypothermia isn't torture. That degradation isn't torture. We don't have that reputation for fairness anymore. Just the opposite, I think. And the next real enemy we face will fight like only the cornered and desperate fight. How many Marines' lives will be lost in the war ahead just because of this asshole who never once risked anything for this country?

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/09/what_weve_lost.html

[IWantAChange]

13. dead-on ........ A once proud nation reduced to

the level of those I once thought we opposed.

[StraightDope]

5. Predictable...

Disgusting, but predictable.

I sincerely apologize to anyone who has been or will be harmed as a result of my government's example.

I no longer consider myself an American.

[lcordero2]

7. Sun Tzu's Art of War

"Treat the prisoners of war well, and care for them."

[Supersedeas]

10. Al Gonzo probably finds that 'quaint'

[Vinca]

12. We used to be a beacon of light in the world.

The light's gone out.

[baldguy]

14. If you lie with dogs you get up with fleas.

And George Bush has more fleas than anybody.

[WCGreen]

15. I am so proud .....

Hit it Lee Greenwood....

[Lindacooks]

17. Yep. George W. Bush: Lowering human rights standards all over the world.

Along with our standard of living, life expectancy, education, medical care, etc. etc. etc.

[Solly Mack]

18. lololololol

Sorry - but I love it when America's hypocrisy is thrown back in America's face.

I take great satisfaction in America's hype being used against us

Well, golly gee, Mister UN man, America is tells everyone that they are a country that cares about human rights - America likes to boast how they care about the rights and life of others - America likes to talk about their principles and their laws - and so if we do anything they do, we can't be wrong, can we?

lolololol

[nealmhughes]

19. Evidently they got the memo: Voltaire and the Enlightenment are dead.

Kristol wrote it for BushCo, did everyone else not get it? Might makes right. By all means necessary?