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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:19 AM
Original message
US fears 'hell' of a response
PLANS previously drafted by the Pentagon predict 52,000 US military casualties and one million civilian dead in the first 90 days of conflict if America attacked Pyongyang.
The US leadership is looking at international economic and diplomatic sanctions against North Korea as its primary response to Monday's nuclear test.

But military contingencies are considered as a matter of course and analysts paint a horrific picture for even the most targeted of US strikes.

A report this week by US-based security and military analyst Stratfor predicts North Korea could return fire on Seoul with "several hundred thousand high-explosive rounds per hour" -- with up to 25 per cent of shells filled with nerve gas.

Other estimates say the US would need at least 500,000 ground troops to secure against a North invasion of the South.

news.com.au
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. I am feeling a Cat 3 Draft
:grr:
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I've said it before and I'll keep on saying it until
(literally) kingdom come, there is NO FUCKING WAY a draft is going to ensnare my teenage son. NONE. I'll hide him in fucking Tanzania if I have to, and I'll gladly go to jail if I have to do so to protect him. They are NOT getting their grubby, greedy imperialistic hands on him, no way! I'll do what I have to do to protect him, no matter the personal cost to me.

If they do push through a draft, watch for it to happen sometime next year when there won't be any elections for two years and, therefore, there'd be little that angry citizens could do. I really don't see how they can avoid a draft if they insist on continuing on this path of destruction to push through their agenda, there simply is not enough manpower with our voluntary military to even handle our present needs. They cannot keep rotating the same units over and over and they can't keep cannibalizing reserve units and rotating them overseas over and over; our troops are already exhausted.
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bigscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. funny you should say that
I was working with my son on a current event project for his civics class (9th grade) and the article we were working on was the elections and how they affected him (I live in CT, we were discussing Lieberman/Lamont) and one of the ways it affects him is that in less than 4 years he WOULD be eligible for the draft - and the chances of there being a draft are better if LIEberman is re-elected. He will be 18 in less than 4 years - now they are saying we will be in iraq until at least 2010. Great. he did end the essay by saying his Dad thinks The Netherlands would be a great place to emigrate to....My dd served in WWII and told me I would be going to Canada when i turned 18 if we did not get out of Vietnam in time (we did). I like Amsterdam a lot - we would be very happy there
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Kinda really hits home when you have
teenagers, doesn't it? My son will be 18 in 2009 and I know I'm much less apathetic about the war than a lot of other people I know who don't have children who could be subject to a draft. While growing up, I remember often talking with my grandmother about her and the family's ordeal during the 18 months that my uncle was a Marine in Vietnam and thinking how glad I was that I would likely never have to experience what she did (my uncle came home, but it was hell for all of them every single day he was in Vietnam).

She and my grandfather were very much against Vietnam and all war, in fact, with the exception of WWII (we had no choice, they said, and I do agree with that), and they'd both be furious at what's happening now if they were alive to see it. She always told me to fight it if it ever looked like a child of mine would be used as "cannon fodder", as she put it, and not just blindly go along with it, as she and her family did. And I intend to do exactly that.

My son is very aware of my feelings and agrees, and my own parents are in even stronger agreement, so I would have both material and emotional support should the worst happen.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. My stepson just turned 18
and we had to talk him out of JOINING the army. They're drafting him over mine and my wife's dead bodies.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
30. i am ITA with you on this
as my son will be 18 in TWO years. the thought of him being drafted nauseates me. we have so many plans for him, college is where i want him, NOT the middle east!
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
84. Lots of people are thinking that way
I know a European immigrant living in the U.S. who has a teenage son born here. He recently got his son a passport from his home country, just in case.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
53. I've got family just outside Amsterdam. Bank on my taking the gals
there if necessary.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #53
67. Canada and Costa Rica are our safe havens. n/t
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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #67
74. Canada isn't anymore
Edited on Thu Oct-12-06 01:42 PM by roamer65
1. They signed a 2001 agreement that makes US draft evasion more difficult.
2. They have a con gov't, not at all similar to the Liberal gov't of Pierre Trudeau. In addition, Trudeau was a "red" liberal.

Seriously, I would only treat Canada as a transit point to other countries.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Crap. Glad my partner kept his Canadian citizenship.
Edited on Thu Oct-12-06 01:45 PM by katinmn
But there are thousands of awol soldiers in Canada right now. Are they there illegally?
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. Maybe, Maybe Not.
If Canada allows anyone in under Refugee Status it will be totally confidential. It takes about three years for the whole process, and if they reject the Refugee Status they may accept a person on Humanitarian Grounds.

I'm not quite sure if Canada would reject everyone, regardless of that law that says they won't accept U.S. Soldiers refusing to fight.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Even should they institute a draft,
and should enough cannon fodder show up for induction,
it would take 1-2 years to train them and form them into
a fighting force.
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Miss Chybil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. Basic training is 8 weeks. AIT varies, but it's measured in weeks not
years.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Yes. It takes a good deal more than basic training or AIT.
Combat is a team sport, and it takes time to build the team and develop the sort of unconscious facility with ones weapons and tactics that make an effective unit. You can send them into combat earlier, but the results may not be good.
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Hence the 'fodder' title...
Unfortunately I don't think we'd be seeing much more training now than we did during Vietnam.

Although with the rain or lead that would be the NK/SK border, I dont know how much training would help.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. True.
Arguable that even with the "get them over there in weeks" scenario it will be too late, anyway. I doubt that Lil' Kim will procrastinate much once he decides to start the show. His "deterrent" is very much of the "use it or lose it" sort.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. What?
The draftees would be integrated into existing units that are already trained. A draft just augments the supply of fresh meat, it wouldn't require a complete restart. Trust me, they have this all set up and ready to go and there will not be any 1-2 year pipeline. Also, the folks who think that refusing to participate is going to be easy to get away with had better think twice about that as well. This is not the America of the 60's and 70's.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Yes, of course, it will all work great.
FWIW, I'm not saying they won't ship the cannon fodder over there sooner, the contempt of this government for its military is already well documented, I'm just saying it won't work well.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. And I'm saying based on what?
This is exactly what we did for WWI WWII Korea and Vietnam. It worked fine from their perspective up until the big crackup circa 68-72. It was widespread civil disobedience both within and outside the military that broke the draft and rendered draftees largely unusable late in the vietnam war. Up untill then a draft based army was working just fine.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #39
54. We seem to have shifted the ground of discussion here.
I said it takes time (years) to construct an effective draft-based army, to do a good job of it. I am not and was not saying that draft based armies are not effective. History clearly shows otherwise, modern warfare is not possible without them.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #54
83. yeah - then we are back to my original statement.
The restarted draft would simply feed draftees into the existing training system. Absent an effective resistence I see no reason to believe that draftees would somehow be different than volunteers with respect to training and integration into existing combat units. You made the claim that somehow it would take 1-2 years to get a draft army going and I think that they could restart the draft tomorrow and 8-12 weeks later draftees would be showing up in Iraq or Iran or Korea.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #83
91. Tsk. The words are right up there.
There is no need to misinterpret them when you can simply quote me:

"it would take 1-2 years to train them and form them into a fighting force"

The premise was a half million new inductees, and the premise was not a matter of getting a draft army "going", but of forming a well-organized and trained force, or integrating them into our existing forces. And it will take years, not months, to do that with a half million new troops. We are not in way prepared to train up and organize that many inductees all at once. And again, I didn't say they could not have new troops showing up in a few months, they do that now, I'm saying it would not give good results to do that. The premise is not to dribble troops in, it's to field a force of 500,000 soldiers so as to be "secure" in S. Korea. It doesn't do much good to get troops into combat if they just get chewed up.
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Homer Wells Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #54
105. What concerns me
is the callous disregard that the present Regime has for its troops. These troops were sent into Iraq with little preparedness, woefully inadequate materiel provisions, and told to do a job that was impossible to do correctly, given their inadequate numbers.
Why should we expect them to have any more concern for the draftees??
A full-bore draft would just supply the military with fresh bodies to throw at the enemy, and there seems to be no real concern for them by * or his evil minions.
Can you spell CANNON FODDER???
I knew you could.

:mad:
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malmapus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
49. Depending on the MOS actually
11B which is your basic grunt infantryman go through 12 weeks of Basic, then they go to more advanced training. It is still not in years though.

My training total with Basic / AIT and AIRBORNE lasted just 7 months and then I was with my unit and swiftly sent off on my first deployment (Operation Continue Hope: Somalia).

Course could still say that pretty much most of my time in was training, we still had to practice with weapons, live fire exercises, FTX, land navigation; night and day, ambushes. Having to re-qualify like every 6 months on everything. Plus other training like SERE, Air Assault, Jump Master.

But from being a teen with no clue and finding myself in a real life scenario, it was still under a year.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #49
61. Certainly that (MOS) has an effect.
Consider the question as to how many trainees can be handled at one time, and then, at that rate, how long it will take to train and integrate say half a million trainees into your existing force structure, one hopes in an effective way ...
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malmapus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #61
69. Ahh read your post wrong then, thought you were speaking of training per
trainee, and not in volumne of trainees.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. It's a messy subject.
Half a million recruits is quite a few. But I would think even for an individual, it would be of benefit to have plenty of time to train with ones unit. Perhaps "years" would be excessive in that context.
:hi:
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Miss Chybil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
86. They will send whoever they've got. Especially, if we, or our friends get
nuked. I spent 9 years in the Army. I didnt' see any combat, thank God. I got out about a year before the first Gulf War. I can guarantee you, there is nothing that says, if your unit is sent to war, you can't go fight because you haven't gamed it yourself for a couple years. You go where your unit goes. Whether you've been there for a few years, or a few days.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
106. I agree, however, since we went into Iraq with insufficient numbers...
...and ill-equipped, I doubt if Rumsfeld et al would be too overly concerned about sending in draftees who were insufficiently trained.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised to learn they were being trained on the flight over, sort of like those "what to do when the cabin depressurizes" lectures...
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. "what to do when the cabin depressurizes"
:rofl: :rofl:

"jot down the positions of enemy gunfire during your descent"
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
95. I have a nephew who is now finishing basic training.
It is 9 weeks long at Ft. Benning in Georgia and his AIT will be 20 weeks long. His mom worries about him going to Iraq and while that is a possibility there are other bad places he could go. Iran and Korea come to mind.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
78. training? all they need to know is how to DIE
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #78
93. That's what I'm afraid of. nt
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dogfacedboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
90. My uncle says had 35 days training before being shipped to 'Nam.
Within 9 days of arriving in 'Nam, he was seeing combat.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. I don't doubt you.
I knew quite a few myself.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #90
102. After basic it was quick time
had to get "Into the shit"
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jedicord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. I just found out my 13 year old son has scoliosis.
Thank Gawd it's minor, only 10 degrees of curvature.

One of my first thoughts after the initial shock was: "Now he can't be drafted! We don't have to move to Canada!"

Is that crazy, or what - in a way grateful your own son has scoliosis. The world has turned upside down. :mad:
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. I know exactly what you mean;
my son has Asperger's Syndrome, a type of high-functioning autism, and, while I've always hated that he has to deal with it, knowing how it affects him, it also just might keep him out of the Perpetual War Machine. And there's a part of me that's secretly glad he has it because of that, that's really kinda sick, isn't it?

OTOH, they're lowering standards and taking recruits they normally wouldn't have accepted, and there have even been reports of autistic recruits being signed up even when the recruiter knows of the condition, so who knows, anymore?
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
55. Hate to burst your bubble, but my neighbor kid, who could not pass a
Edited on Thu Oct-12-06 12:41 PM by elehhhhna
Texas NCLB HS grad. test in 3 tries, and has 30 degree (yes: 30)scoliosis, was accepted and just finished basic. Her mother (a nurse) was SURE she wouldn't be accepted but the Army has their own Doctors, ya know.

My daughter has mild scoliosis, too. The only thing that will do for her re; a draft is make the one way plane ride to Holland more uncomfortable.

BTW, they are NOT DRAFTING MY DAUGHTERS, anyway.

THEY COULDN't pass the fucking ERA: they sure as HELL aren't taking the girls. PERIOD.
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Sin Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Why would you run.
and at that point there would be enough angry citizens to effect some real change change that republicans only understand I'm 25 and I wont be drafted I also wont be going to prison and I wont be paying fines and I wont be running Id be fighting for freedom were it counts at that point.If i die doing so, so be it
It will be here fighting for my own freedom. and I'm sure there will lots more like me out there if that time were ever to come.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
56. NOW YOU'RE TALKIN! You'll be in very good company, too.
welcome to DU
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. A fundie co-worker is starting to realize what his
vote for the godly bush may cost him. He has three teenage children. His oldest son is 16. After hearing someone in the administration call it a decades long war he admits he may have voted for the wrong man.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. Start documenting CO status NOW
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
57. Oh hell, just dres 'em up in your prom gown and start taking photos.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. While I personally am a pacifist...
I look forward to the day when gay men and women will be allowed to serve openly and honorably. The dress gimmick worked in times past, but there is no guarantee that it will continue to work.
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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. I spent 24 years in the military
I don't want to see no draft. If people don't want to fight for their country than let the country fall.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. That's a red herring! There are times when
you do, indeed, have to fight for your country, I'm not a blind pacifist. WWII, for example, had to be fought whether we wanted to or not; unless we wanted Nazi world rule, we had no choice. They came quite close to actually winning and may very well have done so without our entry into it.

Iraq, otoh, is a completely different story, as was Korea and Vietnam and almost all the other wars you can think of. This country has been at war, on average, every 20-30 years since our independence. Think about that for a moment. Exactly how many of those wars were actually necessary? The vast majority were nothing but imperialistic political games or nationalistic chest-thumping, or to steal land from Mexicans and Indians.

We are not "fighting for our freedom" in Iraq, that's nationalistic, jingoistic, faux-patriotic horseshit. And people are finally starting to realize that.

When the chips are down and it's absolutely necessary, as in WWII, people will gladly pick up arms to protect the country. But people are seeing right through the real reasons for Iraq and are in no mood at all to expand things, especially since those currently deciding such things have, for the most part, never spent one day in uniform themselves and, indeed, found ways to avoid service in Vietnam.
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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. We had to fight WW2?
Edited on Thu Oct-12-06 11:44 AM by Retired AF Dem
Why couldn't we do it without the draft? My point is if people don't want to fight, even WW2 than let the country fall.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
85. While there was a draft, there were also huge numbers of eager
volunteers, starting on the day after Pearl Harbor.

A lot of people who didn't have to, including women, signed up for the military during WWII.
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Crayson Donating Member (463 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
101. That would be the ultimate democrazy...
... sort of like the right to choose one's own time of death.

Every citizen has an agreeing that the state will look out for him and the citizen pays for the state and has his duties.
There might come a point where one wants to quit that relationship. And if that is collectively then a state fails.

States tend to "fight till the end, to the death".
Whereas people tend to wanting to survive, not caring what state rules them.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. "and may very well have done so without our entry into it"
well not really. The Germans were defeated at Stalingrad and elsewhere on the eastern front and we had nothing much to do with that other than lend/lease supplies. Of course the Russians had a draft and could not have defeated the Germans without it. Our great sacrifice at Normandy had more to do with preventing a complete Russian takeover of continental Europe than with defeating the remnants of the German army.

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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. I totally agree. nt
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malmapus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
51. Was a draft even necessary in WWII?
I never thought on it before, but with everyone who was willing signing up at the time.

Might do some research as I'm curious now, as to how many folks actually enslisted as opposed to drafted in the war.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #51
62. I asked my dad that question once...
he answered in the strongest possible terms.

"Hell yes, it was necessary, no one wanted to go f'ing die."

He was shot in the head at the battle of the Bulge in Belgium and lived to tell that tale (and many others)

He thought it was a misplaced honor to claim that people of his generation (unlike people at every other time in history) were universally willing to sacrifice themselves for truth, justice and the american way.

The WWII draft was necessary, and it's a relatively new concept that wars can be fought without coercion.
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malmapus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. Yeah, kinda figured.
Edited on Thu Oct-12-06 01:08 PM by malmapus
But seems that every member of that generation I have known or heard of speaking on it signed up lol. None of them thought about dying or anytthing. From from what they said, it was the thing to do after we were attacked, even years after Pearl Harbor.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
58. Uh, we have ALWAYS been at war somewhere since our independence.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
64. Taking your advice
this country would have fallen in the years following WWII
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
24. Get your teenagers individual (not family) passports TODAY!
Edited on Thu Oct-12-06 11:42 AM by Divernan
Get the application form; take the kids to the local passport picture place (some drugstore/photo depts. have them), and get the completed app. in the mail now. If you really want to be able to get them out of the country, you better have your plans in place, cause I don't think Bush is going to give any advance notice. It would be just like the SOB to send out a couple of hundred thousand draft notices the day after the election & blindside the whole country.

Just like the GOP hit the ground running, with all their legislation drafted as soon as they got sworn in when they took control of the Congress, I think they will have "spoiler" plans in place should they lose control of the House or Senate in November. They have a two month window in which to further fuck over the country, and this time they won't be constrained by fears of losing an election.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
34. I second that! n/t
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
45. No need for Tanzania, Lib.
(see my post down on the bottom)
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
63. Not through a Democratic congress
Unless Chinese amphibious assault ships are disgorging troops on the beaches of California, Oregon, and Washington.

I am really worried that they will do it in a lame-duck session between election day and swearing-in day.
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Akoto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. Draft = Political Suicide
Edited on Thu Oct-12-06 11:01 AM by Akoto
Support for the so-called "war on terror" is already at rock bottom. People are tired of the fighting and death, and even *'s own base is disillusioned. Instituting the draft would just spark an open rebellion among the public.

Politicians like being in power, and they want to stay that way. I've no doubt they would throw the administration to the wolves if it tried to start up the draft, particularly if it secured their own seats.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
36. No doubt they DO like staying in power,
but they will have a "lame duck' period where they won't have to worry about elections for some time, as the poster above indicates, the two-month window between the elections and the beginning of the term would be an ideal time to push through their bullshit without re-election worries. I wouldn't put it past them at all.
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diamidue Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
43. Political suicide: That's what my husband says.
But then he still thinks this administration would never go against the Constitution. I doubt that a little thing like the Constitution or an election or the disapproval of the public will stand in this administration's way. Besides, have you seen Americans in the street yet? Do you really think the draft would stir them to overthrow the govt? I doubt it. And if the Dems gained power, who's to say they wouldn't fall in line behind a draft just like they did with the war?
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
4. 52,000 US dead is IF no other nation decided to get involved.
And that's as unlikely as bush ever telling a truth.

Oh by the way, SOUTH KOREA says they would JOIN NORTH KOREA AGAINST AMERICA if we attacked NK.

China would make out like a bandit. How's your Chinese? Americans may wanna start brushing up on the language.

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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Good point, this is the "optimistic" scenario. nt
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
75. That Makes Sense.
Why would South Korea want to get inialated by exploding North Korea Nuke sites
that were attacked by the U.S.?

Not!
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
7. 500,000 ground troops?
We're having trouble keeping 140,000 troops in Iraq, lowering recruiting standards* and raising the maximum age for service in an effort to keep that leaky balloon inflated. Where in the world are the Bushistas thinking they'll get three or four times that number for some more imperial adventurism on the Korean peninsula?

*And when the current manpower crisis passes, how many of those who got in through lowered standards are going to find out that they're not eligible for promotion because of those little blots on their enlistment forms like arrests and community service? Or how many of them are going to find out that they're not eligible for any veterans benefits because they fudged a few facts on their enlistment form to get in?
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
68. They are recruiting them in Central America now.
and considering opening up recruiting offices in India.

This war is opposed by Americans, but they continue to keep it going by importing people who have no good options. Sick.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #68
104. This thought has crossed my mind more than once, and it doesn't
surprise me if this is happening. It would surprise me if it didn't.

I didn't know until recently that during the American Civil War, many Union soldiers--not sure if it was 1 in 4 or 1 in 5--were immigrants just off the boat.

Can you give us a source?
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Tyrone Slothrop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
15. "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed."
"But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks."

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central scrutinizer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. thanks for that one - one of my top ten movies of all time
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Tyrone Slothrop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. My all-time favorite!
Btw, nice screen name...I haven't listened to that album in a long time. May have to dig it out tonight...
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
27. Let China and Japan and S. Korea worry about N. Korea
They have plenty of soldiers
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
33. Not all of us have *this* advantage:
Stratfor argued the US had two advantages -- the time it would take Pyongyang to develop a miniaturised nuclear weapon for carriage on a missile; and America's distance from North Korea.

There are many of us a stone's throw away, thanks very much.

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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
35. There is no military option for the US in NK.
Kim only has to worry about China. As long as they thing that he is a better option than a stream of impoverished refugees from NK, then he is fine. However, he had better be careful. China seems upset with him after the nuclear test. He hasn't blown there support yet, but he should be careful.

NK could kill so many people in Seoul in such a short time that there is no way that we or SK attack them. Nevertheless, Kim likes to play the "invasion" card like Bush plays the "terrorism" card.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #35
72. China could have been play acting like the way professional wrestlers
do.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
87. Roughly 1 million Chinese died during the Korean War fighting in
defense of North Korea (not sure of the figure, but think it's close). Ties between China and North Korean run long and deep.

My Dad was in the Marines at Inchon landing. He says North Koreans are among the toughest soldiers in the world. Tough fighters who won't go down without a real fight.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #87
100. I agree with how tough Korean fighter are.
While I lived in the Philippines in the early 1970's, both Filipinos and Americans who had fought in Korea and in Vietnam said the Koreans (on both sides) were the toughest fighters that had seen.

Ties between countries evolve over time. I don't believe that the ties between China and North Korea are as close today as they were in the fifties, but they still exist. China is practically the only country that has provided with diplomatic and economic protection for a long time.

By saying that NK has to be careful not to antagonize China, I don't mean that it would happen easily or quickly, just that it would be devastating for Kim, if China ever decided that he was no longer the lesser evil of a bunch of bad options.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
37. Don't tell me they're ACTUALLY thinking of doing this!
:scared:
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. I would think our military would mutiny (leave it to China to sort out)
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #48
73. Since China doesn't want to support sanctions,
maybe they just want to stay out of it altogether, I don't know.
I certainly don't trust Bush&Corp. though.
I could see them pulling a fast one just because their numbers are lagging.
They might think stupidly "what have we got to lose?"
God I just hope they're not that stupid. :scared:
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
38. NK is so dangerous-does this mean we're going to invade Japan?
I'm just trying to apply Bush logic to the situation.
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. No. Bush logic says-----invade IRELAND. Stands to reason, right?
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Crayson Donating Member (463 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #47
103. lol.. don't mess with the Irish...
... with the IRA and all.
^_^
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #47
107. IRAq, IRAn, IReland, IRA, should Gerry Adams be worried? eom
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freedomchips Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
40. either Bush is forced out or we're doomed. period. end of story
that's why I'm dying to get everyone to check this out: http://www.geocities.com/clarksapples/Preface-to-The-Sw...
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PhysicsDoc Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Draft my beloved son?
Great! As long as it's the NHL we're talking about!
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #40
52. Well, if we take congress we'll have the perfect change to do that.


If, that is, we can convince the Dem weenies to start impeachment proceedings. Goddess knows that he's committed enough impeachable offenses to be found guilty. It's up to you and me to convince congress to do it, and with so many conservatives turning against him now there's never been a better time.
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Massachusetts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
42. Draft
Just maybe, if we still had the draft in place Bu$hco might not have been elected. I personally see more PROS to having a draft than CONS.

All citizens must have a stake in their country, and I mean more than just voting.

IMO all of the above.
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
44. A little bit of info for anyone
Edited on Thu Oct-12-06 12:27 PM by cliss
who is wondering what to do about their draft age young people.

1) In case you thought he/she could take off for Canada and move to Vancouver BC, forget it. The US & Canada signed some agreements to extradite ALL Americans who thought they could hide in that country. They will be shipped back home. (The Pentagon did not want a repeat of Viet Nam).

2) You need to get a citizenship/passport for him/her in a foreign country. Go to the library, check out a book called 'foreign citizenship how to get it'. The book talks about all the ways to do this.

3) Get your young person to serve in a foreign military. Even volunteer work might count. A little-known US Military Law: if you draft age person has served in any kind of foreign military, they CANNOT serve in the US military. They are seen as 'tainted'.

4) Did you know? You can BUY a citizenship in Portugal, I believe for around $5,000 "business investment" you can get a Portugese passport and your child can Go Home to Lissabon. (I got a foreign citizenship for my 3 teenage boys).

5) I'm involved in exporting, and I just found out that the country of Chile will let you open up a business branch office in Chile, the fee is $1,000. With that, you get a permanent residency permit, and an application for a Passport.

6) TIME TO GO, KIDS>
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. What about Venezuela?
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #46
65. I'm not sure,
but I will look into the matter. I would say that the best way to do it, is through Business. We are involved in exporting US products, and it never ceases to amaze me how we get pushed to the front of the line, just because it's commerce.

If you are an individual, it just seems that it's so much more difficult. But when it's business......you have a golden highway paved for you.

Venezuelan web site:
http://www.buyusa.gov/venezuela/es /
(sorry no es ingls)

If you are really interested, PM me & I will do some research.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Portugal to experience a population boom
4) Did you know? You can BUY a citizenship in Portugal, I believe for around $5,000 "business investment" you can get a Portugese passport and your child can Go Home to Lissabon.

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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #44
59. GOODIE. We have distant family in Chile, too. ANd Ireland, if
that helps.
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nodehopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
99. can you post more information on the Portugal thing, please?
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
70. North Korea could wipe Seoul out with just their artillery,
they don't need a nuclear weapon for that.
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Stella_Artois Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #70
77. True enough
They sure don't need 5,000km range missiles either.

Makes you wonder, who is the intended target for such weapons ?
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. Honestly,
I believe it's all about power just as it is with us. I can't imagine they would strike us or our allies with such a weapon, as we could nuke their nation at least a 1000 times for every time they could possibly hit us.

After standing up to the Soviet Union with their tens of thousands of nuclear weapons for the most part of the 20th century, I am not so worried about their long range missiles as I am a rogue nuclear weapon falling in to the hands of a suicidal terrorist.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
79. First 90 days?
Try first 24 hours.
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
82. And while this is happening say goodbye to 140,000
American troops in Iraq. If we come to a draft I get the feeling that females will be fair game also, my * voting brother and sister in law better realize what's staring them in the face. The military will need bodies, it won't care what kind of reproductive organs are attached.
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colorado_ufo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
88. My local radio stations are flooded with commercials
pushing the "great" advantages of joining the National Guard, complete with testamonials from young people as to how the Guard "changed my life." They even have a web site with the propaganda.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #88
94. Same here in SD, except that it's the TV that's
being flooded with these stupid, propagandistic commercials. Don't know if it's doing any good or not, but, if it hasn't, it doesn't seem to have stopped them.
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SquireJons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
89. Toronto has a great Jazz Festival
... and Vancouver has "smoke friendly establishments" and a very nice "green zone." Plus, Canada is a lot closer than any other safe haven.

My son is only 9 right now, but I've said since the moment the sabers started rattling that we were out of here before he turns 18 if we are still at war then.

In my mind, there ought to be a simple referendum on Iraq. If you support the war and you are young and healthy, then you go; if you oppose the war, you stay home. Any person who advocates war for others but not for themselves is an evil coward. And I'd say that to anyones face, I don't care who they are.
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
96. The North Korean military and its capabilities are overrated
Their equipment is antiquated and poorly maintained. Their logistical support capability is poor. They would retreat before an effective opponent.

Scenarios of war with N.Korea need to focus on war with China. China will defend its sphere of influence. They don't want war but if we invade the north they will move in. We can't beat them in a conventional conflict. So these discussions of ground war in northeast asia are very unrealistic.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. True. It's really China's problem anyway.
We should let them handle it.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
97. Sureee..... who will go?
Edited on Thu Oct-12-06 08:51 PM by stepnw1f
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