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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:46 PM
Original message
Guardsman shoots man in New Orleans
Monday, October 9, 2006 Last updated 7:12 p.m. PT

Guardsman shoots man in New Orleans

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

NEW ORLEANS -- A Louisiana National Guard soldier on patrol shot and wounded a man Monday, the first time any guard member patrolling the city has opened fire, officials said.

The guardsman, who was patrolling the neighborhood still recovering from Hurricane Katrina, was flagged down intervene in an argument between two people, said Bambi Hall, a police spokeswoman.

When the guardsman felt threatened, he shot one of the men in the upper torso, she said. His injury was not considered life-threatening.
(snip/...)

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_New_Orlea...
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. More details from the Times-Picayune (N.O. paper)...
The guardsman, Sgt. Robert Lawrence, was patrolling in the 1400 block of Arts Street, near N. Robinson Street on Monday afternoon about 4:30 p.m. when he was flagged down by a man who said a driver had just run over his friend, said Maj. Ed Bush, a Guard spokesman. Lawrence then spotted the vehicle, driving crazy, and pulled the driver over, Bush said.

When the driver got out, he began waving an object the soldier believed was a gun, Bush said. Lawrence told the man three times to drop his weapon and get down on the ground. Bush said. The man refused, and Lawrence shot him, Bush said.

(...)

It turned out to be a cell phone, but it looked like a gun, Bush said. Everything looks good on the question of whether the soldier did the right thing. But hell go through all the procedures that any cop would. Hell see a psychologist and a chaplain, and the case will be investigated and forwarded to the DA

more here
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GrumpyGreg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
2.  Why didn't the idiot drop the cell phone?
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Drunk and stupid?
Who knows?

:shrug:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. It wasn't a weapon???
And he had no idea what the guardsman was talking about. :shrug:
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. Nobody asked him too?
:shrug:
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. they asked him to several times as per the article linked in the OP
there are many small guns that fit in a man's hand, i don't believe law enforcement needs to be required to get on top of somebody with a microscope to check out what's in their hands, it's the responsibility of the criminal acting out to drop the damn weapon or whatever is in his hands that could be misconstrued as a weapon

sounds to me like the guardsman acted properly and considering the crime wave that is running crazy over this town, i hope and pray that narrow little minds don't seize as this as excuse to pull the national guard troops or to crucify this troop

they are badly needed and decent people want them here

people are being shot several times a day in the gno area by the criminals taking advantage of our lack of law enforcement manpower, it's unbelievable what is going on around here, i can bet my ass that nobody calling for the guard to be removed lives within a thousand miles of where they're going to be shot at by gangsters and opportunists

i think the guard has done an amazing job and considering what is going on down here, it's amazing that there has been only one shooting -- and that a non-fatal one



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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. Good points!
We had a fatal shooting tonight in my neighborhood. The twist? The would-be-robber was killed! He tried to rob a couple walking two blocks from my home. He stuck a gun in the woman's back and told her, "give it up." The male companion turned and killed the robber. LA has concealment laws, which I did not know. This just after another shooting, five blocks from my house the night before.

We are in desperate need of more law enforcement!
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. Yeah, according to the people who killed a guy.
Thanks, Inspector Clouseau.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
46. There is one fatal flaw in your argument...
The fact of the matter is this, the National Guard are NOT law enforcement, they are not trained to operate in that capacity, and they are FORBIDDEN by federal law to act in that capacity.

Also, while you say this:

i don't believe law enforcement needs to be required to get on top of somebody with a microscope to check out what's in their hands

I will say, no they do NOT have to do what you said, exactly, instead law enforcement are to ONLY use deadly force(firearms), when either themselves or someone else is under an imminent threat of life. This is considered a judgement call, based on their training, and when a shooting occurs, and investigation is then launched to see if the officer in question actually did use their best judgement.

I've seen training simulations for police officers that involved ashmatics pulling out their medicine, deaf people pulling out IDs, etc. that all are designed to train officers to know when it is appropriate to pull and fire their weapon. I strongly doubt the National Guard go through such vigorous training. THAT is the problem.

I'm sure many Guardsmen, even the one involved in this shooting, are decent people, however, they are simply out of their depth. To be frank about it, they shouldn't be allowed to even serve in this capacity. It would be better if actual law enforcement could take over entirely, either the FBI, or other federal agencies, should be providing the support for the NOLA police department, not the National Guard.
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PSPS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. "a psychologist and a chaplain?"
"Hell see a psychologist and a chaplain, and the case will be investigated and forwarded to the DA
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951-Riverside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. How dare that stupid moron make a call on his cellphone
Edited on Tue Oct-10-06 03:56 AM by 951-Riverside
Its so frickin' rude ya know.

Sieg Heil! *oink* *oink* *oink*

:sarcasm: :eyes:
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. More blaming of an unarmed victim - how does a phone look like a gun?
n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Truly! Neverless, oh, heck, he deserves to be shot.
He probably wasn't "our sort," after all.

The story IS disturbing in that no one ever expected National Guard to be roaming American streets and blowing people up.

I doubt many of us will ever really approve of it.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. It's just so easy to pull that trigger when you figure you can get away
with it.

Blame the victim - nobody will defend them, or atleast nobody with money will.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. "OUR SORT" --- Hmmmm I wonder if he listed to
rap music?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Surely not. That just doesn't happen, does it?
Edited on Tue Oct-10-06 04:16 AM by Judi Lynn
Those kinds of extreme things just don't happen these days....

On the other hand, I am reminded of the time that James Byrd, Jr. tied the 3 Klansmen up in Jasper, Texas, and dragged them along a road for a long time, until their heads and arms came off, er, wait a minute. Never mind.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #10
33. Yes I heard that one too--- Hmmmmm
LOL
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
36. he was white -- assumptions much?
Edited on Wed Oct-11-06 12:02 PM by pitohui
i just heard on ABC news that the "victim" was white

believe it or not, not every bad guy in new orleans is black or listens to rap music


i'm probably an idiot because i can't figure out how to link the video but go to the front page of nola.com and look for the link called "witnesses say guardsman acted in self defense" and click on it to bring up the video, the witness in the story is also white, and the reporter says he has two other witnesses who say the same thing as this one
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Allow me to help.
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INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
28. They blew someone up?
Where did that happen? I must have missed that in the article.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. Here
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
7. The question is would a police officer have acted differently?
I am guessing probably not.....

The problem is our soldiers should not be performing police duties in the United States..
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Agreed. (nt)
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. of course not and he or she shouldn't have
how many times do you tell someone who is crazy and out of control to drop the item in their hand which may be a saturday night special before you have to act?

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Centered Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
42. Take that a step further
They shouldn't be performing police duties anywhere (Iraq is a perfect example). Soldiers are supposed to kill people, that is and should be their only function. You must always have them, the real trick is to never need to use them.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
14. "wounded in the upper torso near his back" Huh?!
They shot him IN THE BACK!!

How honorable.

"The man was wounded in the upper torso near his back, and his injury was not considered life-threatening, police said."
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Maybe this soldier forget that New Orleans
is not downtown Baghdad?

Someone turning away or running way is usually not considered a threat.

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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Exactly. When I saw that sentence
Edited on Tue Oct-10-06 09:55 AM by vickiss
I realized they probably are *confusing* their countries. And wait till they all come home. :scared:

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. One more reason letting soldiers use torture
is a very bad idea.

Once you get use to using it, how do you turn it off when you get home?

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INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. oh yeah...
this never would have happened if the torture bill hadn't passed. :eyes:
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
31. For too many the horror of what they've seen, what some
have done will haunt them forever.

Why can't * be haunted like that? No heart.
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Whoa, I missed that part!
:wtf:
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #22
32. Quite telling. n/t
Edited on Wed Oct-11-06 12:15 AM by vickiss
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. A person is never more dangerous than when his back is turned!
You can't see the expression on their faces at times like that, so you have to go ahead and shot them!

I surely hope the local papers will do the right thing and point this out.

Thank you for bringing it up.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
19. We still have the National Guard patrolling New Orleans?
It's been over a year now. Why isn't this an election issue?
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. it is, they were demanded by the people and they are back
Edited on Tue Oct-10-06 07:33 PM by pitohui
they are doing a tremendous job considering the huge scope of the problem

the new orleans police department is decimated by the falling population of "real" residents while the area has been over-run with illegals, drug sellers, gangbangers, hookers, even the kind of organized criminal that steals architectural details off old buildings and tears the copper pipe out of our schools and churches -- people are being shot every day, mass murder or shootings of 3 or more people in some areas is becoming a regular event -- the police are completely overwhelmed

the guard has helped greatly, mostly, they patrol less populated areas to keep down the blatant theft of rebuilding materials, architectural details, stripping of entire churches and schools that is being operated by organized criminals with trucks, cranes, and all

christ on a crutch, even the $180,000 of materials for the katrina memorial was stolen the very next day, this is the kind of heartless opportunist we're dealing with, apparently there are organized criminals with 18 wheelers at the ready to strip us of everything and ship it up north somewhere

having the guard in the more deserted areas allows NOPD to put more boots on the streets in areas where the killing is going on by the gangbangers fighting for territory such as central city and now it looks like the bywater


the guard is badly needed and much appreciated

we don't need less law enforcement, we need more

unfortunately as fast the police can pick up the scumbags, it seems as if the judges are determined to let them go but that's another rant for another day

come walk a mile in our shoes, you will quickly change your mind about the guard, they are NOT the bad guys here

90 percent of the comments in this thread are completely ignorant and un-informed, i especially like the assumption that NOPD and national guard members aren't black, you'd think people couldn't possibly be so without a clue in this day and age, there are many black police officers and national guard troops
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INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Ignorant comments bashing US troops???
NOT HERE!!!!!
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #30
37. and ignorance also assuming the victim was black, he was white
we all make bad assumptions but we need to root out our prejudices instead of reveling in them
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #26
35. I had no idea this was going on.
It's amazing how organized looters can be. This is a story that needs to get out. Bush is so busy defending us from terrorists over there that he can't be bothered to maintain control of a city over here.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. i suppose this is the true face of organized crime
we focus on some little guy selling weed on the street or taking tin cans out of a recycling bin but clearly there are entire businesses devoted to looting the area of anything left of value

hell, there was a bold theft the other day right out of a lady's house in mandeville of $100,000 of art stolen during a fund-raising party she was holding, something tells me that they would have noticed if it was c-murder and pals who showed up at the party and helped himself to the works

we think too small when we think it's all about the gangbangers

i am now convinced there are entire businesses that move about the world professionally looting cities and countries of anything of value in time of trouble -- think how quickly baghdad's museums were looted

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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
20. This just shows what * is up to..
the NG can't shoot while on the border but they can shoot us all day long.
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lcordero2 Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
21. oh Jesus
The poor sap didn't turn off the goddamn humvee and it drowned his voice out and the other moron that got shot couldn't hear him :(
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
39. A kick to the top for the Deciders version of Martial Law.
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
43. Why soldiers shouldn't be cops.
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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. what does that mean? Soldiers are there to observe and inform
I guess when you have a crazy guy with something in his hand and you do not know what it is and had asked the retard to put it down, what should the soldier have done? ask you ?
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. So, why are they carrying weapons and wearing IBA?
Edited on Wed Oct-11-06 06:35 PM by Squatch
Shit, I can "observe and inform" without that stuff...and I'm a soldier.

No, they're down there as de facto law enforcement
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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. Yes, of course "de facto" they are there for law enforcement, but
on a tertiary level. If they were there to "uphold" the law it would be marshal law. correct? The soldier has a right to protect himself or herself.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
48. During an angry, volatile situation, is it a phone or a gun?
(you have to decide in less time than it took you to read the subject line).
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