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jseankil Donating Member (604 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:50 PM
Original message
NORTH KOREA Has Conducted A Nuke Test. - MSNBC Breaking News
msnbc
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Report: North Korea conducts nuke test
<snip>

"South Korean government officials said North Korea performed its first-ever nuclear weapons test Monday, the South's Yonhap news agency reported.

South Korean officials could not immediately confirm the report.

South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun convened an urgent meeting of security advisers over the issue, Yonhap reported.

The North said last week it would conduct a nuclear test as part of its deterrent against a possible U.S. invasion."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061009/ap_on_re_as/koreas_...
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
178. reconcile this logic
for months the bushies have been saber rattling and banging war drums over IRAN and the "possibility of having nuclear weapons in the future"

yet - we've known North Korea has had the capability and were in the process of developing nukes

Why wasn't the saber rattling/wardrum banging directed at North Korea?

two possiblities:
1. North Korea has NO OIL
2. China has North Korea's back

probable outcome: bush will invade Iran because North Korea has nukes
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Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #178
182. Precisely
Nothing happens to NK without China saying it's okay. It's all pretty simple.
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TexasLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #178
218. and North Korea is of little interest to Israel
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Dudemachine Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #218
236. Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!


We have ourselves a winner!!!!
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #178
227. Because Seoul is so close to the DMZ.
Any attack on N. Korea that didn't end the war in minutes would lead to massive destruction in the south, with many, many casualties. S. Korea has decided to comply, by and large, buying off the north and making nice. It's gotten them nowhere: anything they give the N. has always been the north's by right.
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Threedifferentones Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #178
238. Also because "Arab" or "Islamic" and "terrorist"
are basically synonymous in the minds of most Americans, and terrorism is how they have framed/justified the war in Iraq. Plus NKs army is much stronger than Iran's.
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IWantAChange Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
209. DNC comment?
it's time to point out Dubyha's massive failures again in diplomacy - not talking to people and relying on intimidation might work in Texas but on the world stage it's a recipe for disaster.

:bounce:
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #209
220. Paging... We need a Doctor to the press room
STAT!
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. I need an aspirin
Ugh.
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greccogirl Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Let's hope
we don't need 2 million sunblock.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Same here.
My face and arms feel suddenly hot.
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SKKY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
191. Better take 2...
...This is about to get very, very messy.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. wonder what ole China has to say about this????
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warishell Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. The Chinese people will support it
They will be pleased. Not sure about the Chinese government.
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Duppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #31
67. and just how do you know this?
?????????
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warishell Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. Just heard an expert in the region say it.
lol
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Duppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #73
94. I hear directly from China often
and they're not happy.

They're do not want any more conflict; they don't need it. They're interested in power through money/business---that avenue is working for them. Why would they want to mess that up?

And why would you be 'lol' on this serious matter?


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warishell Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #94
133. I was lol at myself
for pretending to know what I was talking about. I'm not lol at this serious situation.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #73
134. Welcome to DU warishell
:hi:
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #73
141. That "expert" was talking out of his/her ass...
Nobody in China wants nuclear neighbors and certainly not an unstable nut-job like Kim Jong-Il.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #31
189. World Reacts to N.Korea's Nuclear Test Warning

World Reacts to N.Korea's Nuclear Test Warning

"The U.S. defined it as a provocative action and made it clear it will respond together with the international community. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told reporters a nuclear test would create a qualitatively different situation on the Korean Peninsula and Washington would have to assess its options"


"Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe said the North Korean announcement is extremely regrettable and warned that a nuclear test would not be tolerated. He added Tokyo will work with the U.S., China and South Korea to respond appropriately"

"Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao called for cool-headed and disciplined responses from concerned countries. "We also hope that all parties will make the necessary efforts to peacefully resolve their mutual concerns through dialogue and consultation, and not take actions that escalate tensions,

"The UN Security Council called an emergency meeting on Tuesday to discuss what measures to take but failed to reach consensus due to conflicting views among permanent members the U.S., China and France."


World reacts to N Korean move



CHINESE UN ENVOY WANG GUANGYA
"If the six-party talks cannot do anything about it, I don't think the Council is in a to do it."


SOUTH KOREAN UNIFICATION MINISTRY SPOKESMAN YANG CHANG-SEOK
"This poses a grave threat to peace on the Korean peninsula and it will have a decisively negative impact on inter-Korean relations.

"We express deep regret and concern."


RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER SERGEI LAVROV
"We are working with Pyongyang in order that it exercises restraint and in order to prevent hasty steps.


UK FOREIGN OFFICE SPOKESMAN
"A missile test launch would be viewed by the United Kingdom and the rest of the international community as a highly provocative act with serious consequences for the DPRK (North Korea).

China decries "brazen" development

"China, a close ally of North Korea, denounced the claimed test as "brazen" and South Korea said it would respond "sternly."

-snip-

"The DPRK has ignored the widespread opposition of the international community and conducted a nuclear test brazenly on October 9," China's Foreign Ministry said in a statement on its Web site.

The Chinese government is firmly opposed to this, the statement said."
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #31
205. Reports last night stated that China was massing troops at the NK border
They are NOT pleased that this has occurred.

China lead the international effort to prevent this - they view it as a major foreign policy failure...
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
82. The Government is going to be unhappy.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
185. The Chinese government called it "brazen"
as per reports on world reaction on CNNi just now...also used "grave consequences" and the act was "intolerable"

And that's considered "strong language" coming from China.

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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #185
199. "Kim, the US can't do anything to stop or control you, but China
I think you should be careful not to antagonize them. They are the only support you have. As long as they back you up, the rest of the world will not do anything to stop or slow you down.

If China gets tired of you or thinks that you are not worth the diplomatic effort anymore, the rest of the world wouldn't be able to save you, even if it wanted to.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. Breaking - N Korea Conducts First Nuclear Test
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 10:51 PM by ruggerson
Per MSNBC cable news station
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. right on schedule....FAUX and Drudge have been pushing this
all weekend....
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. North Korea must want the Republicans to win. Hmm... do you think
someone cut a deal?
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. shit!
although much of this goes to Kim Ill .... bush has his blame her too.

Clinton through Bill Richardson talked to the N. Koreans .... no bombs
bush stopped he talks w/ N Korea ....... bombs

Add this to Katrina, Iraq, Afghanistan, 9-11, spying, dirty elections,
corruption, and massive debt ..... the worst President ever.
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #8
161. tony snow said
"We expect the U.N. Security Council to take immediate actions to respond to this unprovoked act," Snow said.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-10-09-whit...

(i thought bushco didn't like the u.n.)
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. How convenieeeeeent.
:puke:
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Timbuk3 Donating Member (727 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I just heard this too
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Janice325 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Aw, shit!
n/t
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Damn, That's Fucked Up
Bushco. really, really fucked that up. Big time.
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Betty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Original message
maybe this is the October surprise Rove promised
think of it, it would give the warmongers more fuel
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
28. yet again... Bush is a dismal failure
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 11:09 PM by C_U_L8R
I'm not sure how much they want
to publicize their incompetence

(but i bet this pushes their Page scandal off the front pages)
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
239. Nope.
Iran would have to do something similar to give the warmongers fuel.

North Korea? What's bush et al going to do about it? I can tell you right now: nothing. They'll act all horrified and they'll verbally reprimand North Korea for it, but that's it.

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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Yeah.. whatever.
Not real concerned about it. we have nukes, don't we? Perhaps this will scare the shit out of the bush-lovers... and they'll realize how badly he's fucked the world up by shaking a fist at other countries instead of trying diplomacy.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #14
129. Seoul or Tokyo nuked would ravage the world economy
And neither has nukes, so they'd have to fight NK conventionally. There are probably a dozen or more major cities in the region that, if nuked, would also devestate the world economy and make 1929 look like a burp.

And, dammit, I'm of draft age! And my brother, and two ex-brothers-in-law, and my cousin and cousin-in-law...

Well, at least that's a few less kilograms of plutonium they have to throw at other nations.
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The Watchman Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #129
223. I am.
In responce to the question posed by yours (and mine) signature, I am watching the watchmen. This is very well timed for the republicans, it will book end nicely with the verdict from the saddam trial this coming weekend and undoubtedly more "terror" threats will be twarted by our torture and tapping.
We must all be watching the watchmen, its our blindness that has lead us down this road.


Be Vigilant.

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FujiZ1 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #129
246. Oh Christ.
God this board is tough to handle. If North Korea nuked anyone, every fucking super power in the world would turn the country to ash.

Don't even start speculating, because it's never going to happen. They just don't want to be pushed around. I am shocked people would buy into this nonsense. Who gives a shit if they have nukes anyway.
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followthemoney Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #14
197. Can anyone believe in American Exceptionalism while war criminal Bush
is president? What is America an exception to? The world has no guiding light. Everyone is responsible for their owm security whether you live in Iraq, Iran, North Korea, or New Orleans.

When atom bombs are illegal, only war criminals will have atom bombs.

The American people have allowed their criminal administration to remain in power and threaten the world. We have been unwilling or unable to restrain them. The threatened people of the world, whatever we may think of them, want to live without the threat of a pre-emptive attack from America.

The spread of nuclear weapons is inevitable. The double standards of empire are effective when the fearful people of America can bully without consequence. Sorry folks, that era is ending. Find a new way to get along together.
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grayokc Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #197
244. PBS Frontline: Interview with a North Korean Defector
PBS Frontline

Kim Duk-Hong: Interview with a North Korean Defector

Kim Duk Hong is one of the highest ranking officials to defect from North Korea. He escaped from North Korea in 1997, first to Beijing and then to Seoul, along with Hwang Jang Yop, the architect of the North Korea regime's ideology known as "Juche," meaning "self reliance." Kim was Hwang's assistant for many years. He is officially barred from talking to the press by the South Korean government, however, FRONTLINE obtained this exclusive interview at an undisclosed location in South Korea. The interview was conducted in Korean and has been translated.

Why did you defect?

When I was 20 years old, I realized something was wrong with North Korea. Only people who had connections could succeed in that society. I was thinking of defecting as far back as 1958.

So you waited more than 40 years before defecting. Why did you take so long?

Before I left, I studied Marxism and Communism. I realized that Kim Jong Il's government is following Marxism literally. At this time, I thought that someone should speak up about this, so I did.

Did you have contact with Kim Jong Il?

It is really hard to contact him. Even people who live in the same area, they report to him and respond to him by fax only. He barely speaks, only at a few parties. A middle class person like me hardly gets a chance to see him.

How did Kim Jong Il control the country?

He controls his administration exclusively. It operates absolutely by his word. It's an autocracy. Although people have been suffering for 50 years, Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il used to be like gods. Kim Il Sung used to kill people who didn't like his administration, but nobody blamed him. People thought that it was politicians' fault, not his fault. People have begun to realize that Kim Jong Il is wrong, he is killing people.

From the Clinton administration's point of view, they were able to negotiate a freeze of the nuclear plant at Yongbyon. Didn't that slow the nuclear program?

Of course, I think the Clinton administration was great. The United States solved the problem peacefully. It was historic. resumed the development of nuclear weapons as soon as they signed the Geneva Agreed Framework, even before the ink dried on the paper.

In 1995, the national military industry secretariat went to Pakistan to trade skills in exchange for producing nuclear weapons. They sent engineers to Pakistan after they signed for Geneva Agreed Framework in 1994. They began to talk about nuclear weapons with Pakistan 1995. It is true.

Do you believe that Clinton administration was naive in dealing with Kim Jong Il?

First of all, I think that they didn't know North Korea, Kim Il Sung or Kim Jong Il. That was their big mistake.

What is Kim Jong Il's ambition?

Firstly he wants to have nuclear weapons. My complaint is that the United States gives North Korea time to work on developing weapon programs. Kim Jong Il doesn't care that people are starving and poor. He spent almost all the money on nuclear weapons.

That's why I'm here. I defected to speak out about the starvation. I left my family, friends, and comrades in North Korea. I don't think that Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il are human beings. He's working only for his own ambitions, only for himself. If he had a sense of humanity, he wouldn't be this kind of leader.

A new administration in Washington is taking a tougher line in North Korea. Do you think is it proper?

I think that Bush knows how to treat Kim Jong Il. Don't trust Kim Jong Il, never, ever. What Kim Jong Il is doing is producing nuclear weapons to kill people in the world, and providing expertise in nuclear weapon development to countries which are anti-American.

He kills our people, arrests people who are against his administration. He produces drugs. It's a national industry. He kidnaps other people from South Korea, or other democratic countries. He is doing all sorts of bad things, like the devil. Do not trust him, never, ever.

What do you believe the United States can do prevent North Koreans from acquiring weapons?

The only way is to kill Kim Jong Il. Possessing nuclear weapons is not dangerous. But the fact that Kim Jong Il has weapons is dangerous. I think that's why the Bush administration treats Kim Jong Il the way they do. Some people believe the problem can be solved by removing nuclear weapons in Yongbyon. However, if Kim Jong Il is still alive, he will make bombs again. I think that President Bush knows him. He is the only one who understands who Kim Jong Il is.

But there are others who are critics of the Bush administration who believe that Kim Jong Il will be willing to deal away the nuclear program. Do you disagree with this?

I think two things: People who have never experienced their children or relatives being kidnapped from Japan or somewhere else and taken to North Korea, and then killed by Kim Jong Il, they say, "Peace, peace." People without knowledge about North Korea criticize without knowing.

What policy do you suggest? Is war the only way to remove Kim Jong Il from power?

I think the Bush administration is right in being anti-North Korea. Blocking their economy, it's good way.

Some countries send food, medication, and so on, to North Korea. But they shouldn't send these things through Kim Jong Il. I think they would do better to provide it individually, person-to-person, in North Korea by dropping it with a big balloon, rather than provide it through Kim Jong Il. I think it will be more effective. Why do they provide these things through Kim Jong Il's regime?

Everyone wants to escape from North Korea. If Kim Jong Il would open the industry of North Korea, his system would die. North Korean people really want to open up, to trade with other countries, but Kim Jong Il doesn't.

I don't understand why you guys don't try to talk to the people of North Korea rather than to Kim Jong Il. He might not listen to you. If you guys help our people to get out of there, there would be a revolution by people against Kim Jong Il in North Korea. There are lots of defectors from North Korea in China, South Korea. We have connections to people in North Korea, and eventually we could have revolution.

There are a lot of ways to destroy North Korea, Kim Jong Il. If we would really want to destroy Kim Jong Il, we should be brave. If we are afraid of war, I don't think we can have peace. We shouldn't be afraid of war.


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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
234. It Won't Scare the Shit Out of All of Them
unfortunately.

The Robertson-Falwell et. al. types will all be clapping their hands and "Praisin' the Lawrd" because they think the End is Nigh and they, The Chosen Ones (lol) will be Raptured right out of here before All Hell Breaks Loose. They're so sure that they are so special and that they will be saved, that they will probably be cheering Bush&Corp. to "Bring 'Em On". :crazy:

That would not suprize me one bit. :(
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BluePatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Cue the secret battle robot deployment from Japan
...In all seriousness, holy crap!!! if this is true. Bushco is powerless to deal with it.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
105. "Take off every Zig!"
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 12:30 AM by htuttle
"For great justice!"

ps: To translate for the dour, this is known as 'Black Humor', often employed during times of stress...like these.

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FVZA_Colonel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #105
109. At times like these, we need to be able to laugh.
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 12:39 AM by FVZA_Colonel
N/T.
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NEOBuckeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #105
123. LOL! n/t
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TroubleMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #105
131. Someone set us up the bomb.

A "nucular" bomb.
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hsher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:51 AM
Original message
What you say!
"Hahaha."
:spray:


www.yourmorningleibowitz.blogspot.com
The Daily Show as a comic strip
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #105
229. "All your oil are belong to U.S.!"
Or so says the t-shirt I'm wearing...

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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Quick! Bomb Iran!
First thought that goes through Dick Cheney's mind.
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Joe Bacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Quick MORE TAX CUTS!
That is what Novak would have us do!
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jseankil Donating Member (604 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
13. "Chapter 7" Sanctions likely (via UN)
CHAPTER VII
ACTION WITH RESPECT TO THREATS TO THE PEACE, BREACHES OF THE PEACE, AND ACTS OF AGGRESSION

http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/chapter7.htm
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
76. Testing a weapon does not fall under those categories.
Some may try to argue that it does, but it never has before.
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michaelpush Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
183. hmmm...sounds like the US
would come under those ....
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
19. Report: North Korea conducts nuke test
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 10:55 PM by TheWraith
Just came over the breaking news email. I'll update with a link when available.

On edit:

SEOUL, South Korea - South Korean government officials said North Korea performed its first-ever nuclear weapons test Monday, the South's Yonhap news agency reported.

...

South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun convened an urgent meeting of security advisers over the issue, Yonhap reported.

The North said last week it would conduct a nuclear test as part of its deterrent against a possible U.S. invasion.

The director of South Korea's monitoring center that is watching for a test with sound and seismic detectors declined to immediately comment on the report. The U.S. Geological Survey said it had detected no seismic activity in North Korea, although it was not clear whether a blast would be strong enough for its sensors.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061009/ap_on_re_as/koreas_...
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Another lucky day for W
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 10:54 PM by eleny
Link for LBN?
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Cheney Killed Bambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. CNN reporting the same
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. No, This Is Bad, Bad News
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 10:59 PM by Beetwasher
It may knock Foley out, but this opens a whole host of new nat'l security issues and MASSIVE, MASSIVE FAILURE. They failed, big time and now NK has the bomb. Definitively. And missile technology. Bad news all around, for everyone.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. It's very bad news for us but he's been itching for this
I don't think W feels enough to understand anything except what he hoped to accomplish by his horrible foreign policy towards North Korea.

We're not far apart on this. I just think W is licking his lips over the prospect of eternal war.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #23
194. I agree, how could this possibly be news in Bush's favor
It just reiterates what a MISERABLE FAILURE he and this administration are....the Dems should make hay and hammer it home. How the fuck has Bush made us more safe? He has allowed North Korea to acquire the BOMB.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #194
207. Under Clinton, NK did not produce one gram of plutonium
and did not aggressively pursue its ICBM program.

All that changed when the Chimp blew into town.

Make no mistake about it - this is a BushCo failure...
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. The US government certainly knows whether they did or not.
The Global Positioning System carries radiation detectors specifically as part of the global nuclear detection network. Somebody in the DOD knows whether this happened. I wonder when they'll come out and talk.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Wow, well at least we took out Saddam so he couldn't nuke us
If I wasn't already drunk tonight I'd be getting that way.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #21
144. Do underground detonations radiate much?
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 01:38 AM by krispos42
I would think the only thing that could escape the mineshaft or whatever they used would be neutrinos, and those are damn difficult to detect. X-rays, gamma rays, and all the loose subatomic particles should be stopped, right?

Seems to me the only way to detect an underground blast is by seismology. Or am I just wildly off base?

<fixed a stupid typo>
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #144
176. It's hard to say without specs on the military-grade detectors
In theory, no, underground blasts don't emit radiation, however in practice, I don't know what the tolerances of the military grade radiation detectors are, or what kind of leakage they would need to ID the site. Add to that the question of the fission/fusion ratio and yield of the bomb that they used, and it's an open question. (The higher the fusion percentage, the "cleaner" the bomb in terms of radiation.)

However, what can't be so easily contained is the EM pulse from the detonation, which would definitely be noticible even from an underground detonation.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #176
249. I think it was only a fission bomb
2 kilotons is pretty small for a nuke in general, and tiny for a fusion bomb. Musta been really dirty, then. Glad it's in their soil, not ours!

I forgot about the other parts of the electromagnetic spectrum, though. Musta been a hell of a blast of radio waves as well. Doesn't the lower-frequency stuff penetrate the ground fairly well?
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #249
253. The lower the frequency, the better the penetration.
I don't know a lot about the radio effects of a nuclear blast--although I'm not sure it matters, as if you're within the range where it would be oppressive, any radio you have will be put down by the EM pulse anyway.
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michaelpush Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
184. The North said last week it would conduct a nuclear test as part of its de
sounds like a reasonable concern,,,If the US wasn't being "Imperialistic" perhaps NK wouldn't be so concerned...
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warishell Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
26. It was inevitable ever since they were put on the "axis of evil" list
in 2002.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:11 PM
Original message
Welcome to DU warishell
:hi:

a sad day for the world isn't it?
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Taoschick Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
49. It was inevitable
And would have happened eventually no matter who was in the WH. The North Koreans have been screwing around with this for 13 years. While the people were eating grubs and tree bark, Pyongyang was pouring every cent of foreign aid into their nuclear program.

This really isn't a surprise, it's been a long term goal of NK. Unfortunately, NK is an example of a country where the leadership is immune to sanctions and threats. They knew we weren't going to do anything to hurt them so they went merrily along their way in developing nuclear weapons.
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NEOBuckeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #49
126. No, it wasn't. Clinton's admin worked to get N and S Korea to talk
...which, if diplomacy had been allowed to continue, might have led to North Korea opting for a better path than this. I'm sure the ultimate goal in mind was to have North and South Korea reunify (not entirely unlike East and West Germany).

Of course, then came idiot Bush with his "Axis of Evil" babble, which managed to piss off the North Koreans Big Time, and pretty much ended the hope of their venturing down a better path.

And now THIS is the end result.



Bottom Line: Bush and his crew fucked-up royally. They absolutely MUST pay dearly for it.
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Taoschick Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #126
165. It's really deceptive
To play the blame game on this one. NK snookered everyone.


Seymour Hersh put together a pretty good piece a couple of years ago that shows how NK was jerking everyone's chains.


http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030127fa_fact
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don954 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
27. so, how are they going to put the lipstick on this pig?
you know they will...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
29. N Korea may have conducted a nuclear test: Yonhap (AFP)
NKorea may have conducted a nuclear test: Yonhap

09/10/2006 02h55

SEOUL (AFP) - South Korea has received intelligence that North Korea has conducted its first ever nuclear test, the official Yonhap news agency has reported citing officials.

The move came as Japan's new Prime Minister Shinzo Abe began a visit to South Korea focused on pressuring North Korea to drop its planned nuclear test, and on improving bilateral relations soured by historical issues.

Abe arrived from Beijing, where he and President Hu Jintao had expressed "deep concern" about the test plan and vowed to push for the resumption of stalled disarmament talks.

North Korea's October 3 announcement that it plans to test a nuclear bomb on an unspecified date, in response to what it called US military threats and sanctions, has sparked worldwide alarm and condemnation from the UN Security Council.

http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/061009025522.gr...
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ovidsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
30. It's the Chimp's fault! Spread the word.
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 11:10 PM by ovidsen
I just know the neocons will be screaming in the morning about how it was Clinton that let Kim Jong Il join the nuclear club.

I hope and pray that our counter-attack with the TRUTH that it was Bush's idiotic brinksmanship... his cutoff of talks and aid to North Korea that led to this situation.

I was really getting tired of the Foley tabloid issue anyway. In the great scheme of things, it's Iraq, Iran, the bogus war on 'terra', the bait and switch economy and (on edit) THIS that are the important issues, not some two-bit pederast.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
32. i guess that means we wont be going to war with them
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Nukes are a proven deterrent to aggression
Bush's empty threats only succeeded in pushing North Korea into developing atomic weapons.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #32
66. What does N. Korea have that the U.S.
wants? No oil...I hear the Korean people barely have enough to eat.

I wonder why the test is now...????

Except it does make * look bad.....HE IS NOT KEEPING US SAFE, IS HE?
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #66
121. They have nothing
which is why Jong-il is still there Saddam is not.
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
33. Old Rove is busy planning how to push this.
Why coouldn't they wait until the elections were over?
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MidwestTransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. CLINTON'S FAULT CLINTON'S FAULT. Just wanted to give you all
a look at what will be on Faux News tomorrow.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #36
59. You heard it here first
I will pummel anyone about the head and neck that actually says that to me in public. George Bush owns this mess inside and out.
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NEOBuckeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #33
127. Fuck Rove. No way they can pin this on Clinton
He helped open talks between N and S Korea. But Bush fucked up everything with his blather on N Korea being part of the "Axis of Evil".

This is Bush's diplomatic failure, not Clinton's.
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #127
217. Bet your ass they'll try, though.
Probably something like this: "Oh, Clinton trying to institute talks gave North Korea more time to work on their missile program!" Cue grunting and chest-beating.

My mom is a freeper, I know how they (don't) think.
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warishell Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
34. Could there be a military response to this?
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 11:12 PM by warishell
I mean the North can now do major damage to South Korea, Japan if attacked. Only a fool would now attack them militarily.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:39 PM
Original message
The NKs were already able to do major damage.
They have something like 50,000 artillery and rocket pieces aimed at Seoul--if they wanted to, the place would be a smoking hole in the ground. And they've been believed to have operational nukes for some time, they just never tested them. Even without nukes, their intermediate-range missiles could have wreaked serious havoc on Japan.

But no--there's no possible military response to this that doesn't end up in a mushroom cloud. That's what both the Japanese and the South Koreans are going to be saying loudly.
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chenGOD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
140. It's actually about 10,000 pieces of artillery.
Still enough to turn Seoul (where I live) into a smoking crater. They have enough pointed at Tokyo too.

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Monkeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:07 AM
Original message
Don't think so if we did or Japan did
N. Korea would wipe out Seoul Korea in 30 mins
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
216. Lets not get too hasty
Not to take anything away from the seriousness of this situation or the danger to those is Seoul (I was stationed there and still have friends in the area, so I can sympathize), but a nuclear test does not = nuclear missile capability. If the NKs recent missile tests are any indication, their missile guideance is still relativly weak. Granted, with a nuke, close is good enough. My thoughts are with the people of Korea and Japan.
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Massachusetts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:12 PM
Original message
LET THE CHINESE HANDLE THIS!
We aren't capable (Bu$hco).
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lgn19087 Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
61. They might.
The immediate result of this would be the Nuclear arming of S. Korea and Japan. This is a nightmare scenario for them, second only to a nuclear Taiwan.
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Massachusetts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
35. LET THE CHINESE HANDLE THIS!
We aren't capable (Bu$hco).
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BestCenter Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #35
85. Japan may attempt to handle this.
And they may begin a preemptive war, U.S.-style.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #85
137. Weclome to DU BestCenter
:hi:
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chenGOD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #85
142. Pre-emptive war from Japan?
Uh, I don't think so.
Think hard.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #142
211. Yes - Japan is currently rewriting its constitution to build up
its army, and also to allow it to attack with its military.

Scary times. Their governemnt is about as crooked, conservative, warmongering, hatefilled, and inept as ours is.
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chenGOD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #211
243. Umm actually you've missed my point.
Japan will not be attacking North Korea any time, due to the rather large number of artillery pieces pointed towards Tokyo.
I know about Abe and his grand plans, but rebuilding their military will take time. And regardless, until they solve the problem of North Korea's conventional artillery, they will not be attacking any time soon.

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BestCenter Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #243
245. Japan may have nukes already
Not big ones, but they have had the tech to create them for a long time... so have S. Korea and Taiwan. And who knows, the U.S. might smuggle some in to support them with. Asian Nuclear War, anyone?
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chenGOD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #245
251. Errr, perhaps not...
Not everyone is quite as crazy as you to be wanting to launch them thar nukes.
SK and Japan definitely have the tech. But nobody wants nucklur war here....

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BestCenter Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #251
254. Who says that I wanted to?
I'm not Shinzo Abe.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
38. US intelligence can't confirm NKorea nuclear test
WASHINGTON, Oct 8 (Reuters) - U.S. intelligence cannot confirm North Korea conducted a nuclear test, an official said on Sunday.

"We cannot confirm," said a U.S. official who asked not to be identified because he was not authorized to speak publicly.

North Korea's Central News Agency, or KCNA, said the country had successfully carried out an underground nuclear test.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlebusiness.aspx?type...
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. USGS - No Seismic Activity In Region In Last 48 Hours
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 11:34 PM by loindelrio
Who knows with NK.

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CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Correct
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #43
86. South Korean Government reported seismic activity around 10:30 am
They have been in meetings since 10:40 this morning.
I live in Bucheon Korea. There was seismic activity.
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CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #86
222. There was activity on the NE part of NK
The propaganda story hit before it was even set off.
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bigworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Seismic readings?
Wouldn't a nuke test show up on a seismograph? Surely there must be some amateur geologists on DU who can call BS on this. Or confirm it.
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CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. See my post above
Unless they are automatically classifing activity in NK, this is nothing but empty propaganda.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #44
60. A microbarograph should also pick up the signature.
Even if it is underground there should be a sizable EMP. If they can't pick it up, either no test took place, or the technology has deteriorated since the end of the cold war.


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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #44
77. The South Koreans claim it created a Mw 3.8 earthquake
Yet the USGS which has automatically updating data for the entire world has absolutely no activity greater than a Mw 2.5 on the Korean Penninsula in the last week.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. So it's a crap story then?
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jseankil Donating Member (604 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. "S.Koreas intelligence agency has detected a 3.58magnitude seismic tremor"
dooesn't make sense they would and USGS wouldn't....


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/09102006/323/north-korea-condu...
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Liars with pants on fire. Maybe there is something in it for SK
from Bushitler.
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INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #50
81. Little early for the conspiracies isn't it?
Maybe you should let this play out for a day or so before donning the tin foil hat.
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #50
89. The government gets nothing positive out of it
This will be spun by the GNP as a failure in leadership and diplomacy. This is most likely the 'nail in the coffin' for the Uri Party in next years Presidential elections.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #48
78. I suspect that's because it didn't happen...
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. "... The director of South Korea's monitoring center that is watching for
The director of South Korea's monitoring center that is watching for a test with sound and seismic detectors declined to immediately comment on the report. The U.S. Geological Survey said it had detected no seismic activity in North Korea, although it was not clear whether a blast would be strong enough for its sensors .." http://www.myfoxdfw.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?content...

Dunno, frankly. Looks mostly like SK news has reported NK announced a test. Everybody should have been monitoring, and there would have been a seismic signal. No idea why SK monitors don't comment. NK claims no radiation escape could make radiation monitoring pointless. Lots of possibilities: NK full of BS, NK dud, everybody playing geopolitical games, who knows?
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #57
83. Someone in SK is claiming that it created a 3.8 earthquake
And quite frankly the USGS can detect any seismic activity anywhere in the world above say 1.0 (which is 1/16,000 the size of what SK claiming happened) due to linked up siesmograph networks.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #83
99. " ... Officials in neighbouring Japan and China had no immediate comment
.. on the reports .." http://www.timesnow.tv/articleshow/2123356.cms

I expect you're right about USGS. Cursory review of their website suggests they should have been able to detect something of this size.

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #99
110. North Korea Says Nuclear Test Successful (AP)
By Associated Press |
Posted October 9, 2006, 12:13 AM EDT

... An official at South Korea's seismic monitoring center confirmed a magnitude-3.6 tremor felt at the time North Korea said it conducted the test was not a natural occurrence. The official spoke to The Associated Press on condition his name not be used, because he was not authorized to talk about the sensitive information to the media ...

Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe said that information still needs to collected and analyzed to determine whether North Korea truly conducted its first nuclear test ...

Kyodo News agency reported that the Japanese government has set up a taskforce in response to reports of the test ...

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/sns-ap-koreas-nucle...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #38
52. US Intelligence thought Saddam had WMDs
Sorry, but I am not going to sit here and wait for the liars in the US government to confirm that North Korea detonated an atomic bomb.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #52
70. Yeah, well, I probably pretty much agree with you, with the proviso that
American intelligence would probably work better if it weren't being run by a gaggle of royalist loyalists who think an "intelligence service" is supposed to be a propaganda whore for King George ...

And frankly, while I think NK is bonkers, I really don't see them as much of a threat ...
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Polemonium Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #52
250. Indeed, how is it possible that we can not confirm this
Fact is that this administration has never been able to keep it's eye on the ball. Failed twice now regarding WMD's, once thought they were there, now didn't know they were there, and with all that super fancy spie gear -- can't confirm it even happened.

Time we stop listening to these people.
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Scooter24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
39. Freepers already blaming Clinton...
how pathetic their little shithead of a President couldn't do anything but label NK a threat in his 6 years of office.

ABC shows a film to millions blaming Clinton and his supposed "lack of action" in stopping terrorism, and yet Bush just let a country (a country he labeled a major threat) test a nuclear device.


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nine30 Donating Member (593 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #39
179. And what do you suppose Bush should have done ..
.. that would have prevented NK from testing a nuke ? Put his arm around Kim and have a tete-a-tete ?
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #179
202. they could have had diplomatic talks
instead of bush, calling NK "the axis of evil' again Bush threw a stone at a hornet's nest.
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Cheney Killed Bambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
40. This will push Foley off the front page
The Republicans will be pleased.
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patrick t. cakes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #40
177. off the front pages maybe
but not from the back of peoples minds.
as big as this could be, foley is still out there.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
41. NY Times link:
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puffthemagicdragon Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
42. little tiny nuclear Elvis
as John Steward would say "little tiny nuclear Elvis" is at it again.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #42
96. "K to the J to the IL is in the hizzouse..."
...as Jim Ward from the Stephanie Miller Show would say.

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mrdmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
51. I am going to be a skeptic on this one
We have satellites that would have picked-up an atomic test. We are not that defenseless. Like a lot of other things about this administration, this does not pass the smell test. It seems like, "lets keep everyone in the dark and eat shit"!
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. I smell bullshit too!
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Monkeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
53. Get ready GUYS ROVE IS GOING TO SPIN THIS
Democrats cannot protect you from nukes. Clinton let them do this by talking. Democrats are weak. Democrats will be all talk no action. God Damit we need to know our enemy to defeat him. Start letters to editors tonight. GET ON TALK SHOWS . We got to take the lead on this.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. while we were bogged down in Iraq NK developed nuclear weapons
and that ain't spin
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #53
75. I don't see how he can
The United States has had one party rule for six years and this is a total failure on their part. Absolute. Total. Failure.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #75
119. It will take a month of Sundays for Joe Six-Pack to unravel the spin....
What's today's date? The boys are cutting it close, no? :shrug:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
55. Report: North Korea conducts nuclear weapons test (Haaretz)
Last update - 05:21 09/10/2006

Report: North Korea conducts nuclear weapons test

By News Agencies


North Korea said Monday it has performed its first-ever nuclear weapons test.

The country's official Korean Central News Agency said the test was performed and that there had been no radioactive leakage from the site

"The nuclear test is a historic event that brought happiness to the our military and people," KCNA said. "The nuclear test will contribute to maintaining peace and stability in the Korean peninsula and surrounding region."

South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun has convened a meeting of security advisers over the issue, South Korea's Yonhap news agency reported, and intelligence over the test has been exchanged between concerned countries.

The North said last week it would conduct a test, sparking regional concern and frantic diplomatic efforts aimed at dissuading Pyongyang from such a move. North Korea has long claimed to have nuclear weapons, but had never before performed a known test to prove
its arsenal.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/772278.html
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. these stories
are all coming from the NK news agency. there was a seismic 'quake' but such a quake could occur with standard weapons
i wouldnt rush and trust the NK news agency. after all it once claimed that Kim Jong Il had 6 holes in one.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. MSNBC has the USGS on the phone line
The geologist says that if the bomb was big enough, they can detect it.

AFP is quoting South Korean intelligence sources as saying that the nuke test did take place. I have the story posted elsewhere on this thread.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #58
71. Detonation registered 3.5 on Richter scale, per South Korea
BBC story here:

A South Korean official said an explosion had been detected in the north-east of North Korea, measuring 3.5 on the Richter scale.

North Korea said last week that it planned to test a nuclear weapon.

South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun has called an emergency meeting of his government's National Security Council.

A South Korean official said that there had been a grave change in the security situation on the peninsula.

Officials in South Korea have been quoted as saying that an explosion was detected in north Hamgyong province in North Korea.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/6032525.stm
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bigworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #71
79. No seismic activity on the USGS map of Korea...
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Maps/10...

Knowing North Korea, maybe they just tested the trigger mechanism or something.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. South Korea is saying 3.5 on the Richter scale
They are the ones saying this. MSNBC had a USGS guy on the line and he said that if the bomb was big enough, it could be detected by seismographs in the United States.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/6032525.stm

I don't have to wait for US confirmation to believe or disbelieve a story.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. I really have to side with the rocks on this, IG
If the rocks, and the global linked seismograph network say nothing happened, nothing happened. I have no idea why SK geologists are saying that a Mw 3.5 or 3.8 was detected, when no other seismographs or seismograph networks show anything, but the simple fact is: the show absolutely nothing.
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #87
91. CNN Just Said That The USGS Detected No Seismic Activity. -NT-
Jay
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #87
100. Could it have been a low enough tonnage
not to show up? Love to hear from an expert on this.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #87
101. Are we all reading the same seismo-sensors?
Are the sensors that SK geologists are looking at the very same sensors that are linked to the global network? If not, is it possible that a localized tremor from an explosion could be picked up by SK sensors, and not by the ones linked to the global network? (since after all, it's reportedly an explosion, not the movment of a tectonic plate).
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #101
112. USGS reports a magnitude 4.2 in North Korea at a depth of less than 1 Km
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #87
107. USGS has updated its website--there was a seismic event
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 12:33 AM by IndianaGreen
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #107
171. So they first say they have detected no seismic activity and then
now they did?? I think someone got a call.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #171
224. USGS had to analyze the data
They don't believe in faith-based creationism, as Bush does.

I didn't have to wait for USGS, and neither did you, the fact that the South Koreans reported a seismic event, and that their intelligence reported a nuke test would have been credible enough.

We shouldn't wait for official announcements from the Bush regime to believe a foreign news source, they lie all the time anyway! Besides, waiting for an American confirmation betrays a certain egocentricity about Amerika.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 07:24 AM
Original message
The map does show an earthquake in North Korea
Magnitude 4.2 - NORTH KOREA

2006 October 9 01:35:27 UTC

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Maps/10...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
226. and the data shows a depth of less than 1 Km
which is not the sort of depth in which you find in earthquakes.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
62. Anyone want to start a pool?
Two possibilities I see are:

A) Bush will get to this problem around tuesday.

B) Bush will just nuke North Korea back to the stone age without thought to the consequences (fallout covering Russia and China) and our civilization will cease to exist as it is now within a week. I know I'm sleeping well tonight. Fucked we are.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #62
92. My money would be on Bush going on vacation
odds are in my favor.
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #62
93. I have no confidence in him to avoid World War III
Glad the elections are coming soon. We could possibly check Bush's ineptitude a bit if we get control this year.
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michaelpush Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #62
186. B. seems a bit "over the top"
Cant see that happenning...are some DUers getting a bit irrational?
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
63. I call bullshit. All day long these "news" outlets were talking about
how many eyes, ears and sensors, showing refueling surveillance planes, and about how closely this was being watched and what, now all of a sudden a test is announced that no one can detect.

Buuuullllll-shit!
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Infinite Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
65. Chinese people & Gov't won't support it...
The Chinese people have been at odds with the Koreans for centuries, particularly the North Koreans, and vise versa. They'll see it as a regional competitor and the people nor government will be "pleased."
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Duppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #65
97. I agree
and said that above. Someone on this thread is wrong in thinking that the Chinese people will support N. Korea's having nukes.

I agree with you, Infinite Hope.

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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #65
139. Welcome to DU Infinite Hope
:hi:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
68. BBC is quoting South Korean officials as saying a nuke test did take place
A South Korean official said an explosion had been detected in the north-east of North Korea, measuring 3.5 on the Richter scale.

North Korea said last week that it planned to test a nuclear weapon.

South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun has called an emergency meeting of his government's National Security Council.

A South Korean official said that there had been a grave change in the security situation on the peninsula.

Officials in South Korea have been quoted as saying that an explosion was detected in north Hamgyong province in North Korea.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/6032525.stm
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
69. Spread This Link Far And Wide.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/12/15/n...

ROTTERDAM, The Netherlands -- Former U.S. President Bill Clinton says he had plans in the early 1990s to attack and destroy North Korea's nuclear facilities after the secretive communist state was found to be producing weapons-grade plutonium.

At the time, he said, North Korea had plans to produce between six and eight nuclear weapons per year.

"We actually drew up plans to attack North Korea and to destroy their reactors and we told them we would attack unless they ended their nuclear program," Clinton told a security forum in the Dutch port city of Rotterdam Sunday.

"We were in a very intense situation," he said.


This happened under Bush's watch and it's his fault.

Jay

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. Clinton talked to the North Koreans
Bush refused to talk to them, preferring to threaten them.
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. Bush Did Neither.
Once he invaded Iraq any threats he may have made against NK became hollow. Dictating to them like they were 3-year olds didn't help much either.
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Sinistrous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #74
90. Memorize the first paragraph of the OP of this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

mn9driver writes:

"Once upon a time, all of North Korea's plutonium laden, spent fuel rods were safely locked away under IAEA seal . That was negotiated under the "Agreed Framework" during the Clinton administration. The trade off was that we would help them build light-water reactors for power, which would be quite unsuitable for clandestine weapons programs."


Sinistrous
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Duppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #90
117. mn9driver was right on
But this will backfire on the bushies, imho.

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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
72. CNN claims SK claims test was a Mw 3.8
ie, a Mw 3.8 earthquake. The USGS has absolutely no activity on the Korean Penninsula above a Mw 2.5 in the last week:

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Spoon Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #72
103. There is a quake on the map now, 4.2
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
88. october surprise, everyone! (kidding)
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 12:15 AM by truthisfreedom
sorry, on edit, i realized that my humor probably isn't needed.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
95. That's not the October surprise Rove had in mind
Our Dear Leader will tell us that we needn't worry about their Dear Leader. The North Koreans have no resources that his oil baron cronies covet.

Rather, our nutty president will tell us why we have to worry about Iran's nutty president. The Iranians have resources that his oil baron cronies covet.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
98. Wonderful........
Another bush failure.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
102. USGS map shows seismic event in North Korea
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #102
111. Well, there it is.
Here we are.
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
104. what if it was a fake test? what if it was 50K tons of TNT?
what if they are trying to manipulate our election to keep bush in power to buy more time to develop their weapons?
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jseankil Donating Member (604 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #104
108. ok...but how does this help Bush?
/nm
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
106. USGS: Magnitude 4.2 - NORTH KOREA
Magnitude 4.2 - NORTH KOREA

2006 October 9 01:35:27 UTC


Earthquake Details
Magnitude 4.2 (Light)
Date-Time Monday, October 9, 2006 at 01:35:27 (UTC)
= Coordinated Universal Time
Monday, October 9, 2006 at 10:35:27 AM
= local time at epicenter

Location 41.311N, 129.114E
Depth 0 km (~0 mile) set by location program
Region NORTH KOREA
Distances 70 km (45 miles) N of Kimchaek, North Korea
90 km (55 miles) SW of Chongjin, North Korea
180 km (110 miles) S of Yanji, Jilin, China
385 km (240 miles) NE of PYONGYANG, North Korea

Location Uncertainty horizontal +/- 14.9 km (9.3 miles); depth fixed by location program
Parameters Nst= 9, Nph= 9, Dmin=369.4 km, Rmss=1.13 sec, Gp= 97,
M-type=body magnitude (Mb), Version=6
Source USGS NEIC (WDCS-D)

Event ID ustqab

This event has been reviewed by a seismologist.
Did you feel it?

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Quakes/...
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #106
170. "Did you feel it?" - lol
The USGS's cunning plan to get NK's nuclear weapons team to email them with all the details... :)
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
113. If true, this is DIRECT result of neo-con foreign policy. nt
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #113
114. Yes indeed it is.
And it appears to be true--a very bad situation.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
115. " .. A U.S. official said North Korea gave China a 20-minute warning of
its test and China immediately told the United States, Japan and South Korea .."

North Korea says conducted nuclear test
Mon Oct 9, 2006 12:23 AM EDT
By Jack Kim
http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=...
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
116. I wonder what yield a 4.2 earthquake correlates with?
That seems pretty big.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #116
120. It was detonated at a shallow depth in a coal mine
I don't know to what extend the rock density is a contributor to calculating yield, but coal is not dense at all.
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dethl Donating Member (462 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #116
122. Something equivalent to around 15,000 tons of TNT
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 12:50 AM by dethl
Something a tad smaller than the nuke we first tested on the Trinity Site (yield of 19,000 tons of TNT).

http://interactive2.usgs.gov/faq/list_faq_by_category/g...
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #122
124. I found this on Wiki as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richter_scale

Richter
Magnitude Approximate TNT for
Seismic Energy Yield Example
0.5 5.6 kg (12.4 lb) Hand grenade
1.0 32 kg (70 lb) Construction site blast
1.5 178 kg (392 lb) WWII conventional bombs
2.0 1 metric ton late WWII conventional bombs
2.5 5.6 metric tons WWII blockbuster bomb
3.0 32 metric tons Massive Ordnance Air Blast bomb
3.5 178 metric tons Chernobyl nuclear disaster, 1986
4.0 1 kiloton Small atomic bomb
4.5 5.6 kilotons Average tornado (total energy)
5.0 32 kiloton Nagasaki atomic bomb
5.5 178 kilotons Little Skull Mtn., NV Quake, 1992
6.0 1 megaton Double Spring Flat, NV Quake, 1994
6.5 5.6 megatons Northridge quake, 1994
~7.0 50 megatons Tsar Bomba, largest thermonuclear weapon ever tested

I imagine the Richter estimates are still pretty rough, though.
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Nolo_Contendre Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #122
132. Actually, more like 1000 times smaller (eom)
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #132
143. According to the Wiki source, it would be between 1 and 5.6 KT
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 01:35 AM by daleo
Richter = 4.0 =======> 1 Kt
Richter = 4.5 =======> 5.6 Kt
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Nolo_Contendre Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #143
148. You are right
I found a more detailed scale here:
http://www.english.ucla.edu/faculty/kelly/kellyearthqua...

4.2 Richter (as reported by USGS) = 2 kiloton
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Dune Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
118. Half pint meglomaniac
I really hate the neo-cons and their fear based ignorant approach to foriegn policy. What a blessing that Kim DONG Ill isn't here with us in this country... he would probably be in Bush's cabinet as minister of fucked up things to do on Mondays. And I'm sure they'd do lunch and discuss how to control all of us WHILE BONEING EACH OTHER OVER COCK TAILS.
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Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
125. While Chimp one-upping Dad in Iraq & failing, he took eye off NK & Afghan
While the Chimp was trying to one up his Daddy (re: 1991) in Iraq, and failing miserably, beginning with fake intelligence, he took his eye off Afghanistan and North Korea. I also fear for how this might embolden Iran.
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Berry Cool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
128. Wow, this time it must be a really big deal
I mean, if MSNBC broke into their prerecorded lineup of Sunday-night documentaries and all...
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Nolo_Contendre Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
130. This does NOT look like a nuke test
See the telemetry data from Japan and South Korea stations: http://aslwww.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/telemetry_data/M...
http://aslwww.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/telemetry_data/I...

Now look at a chart comparing earthquakes to nuclear tests:


Also, use Google Earth to look at the epicenter as reported by USGS (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Quakes/... )
41.311N, 129.114E

It looks like it's on top of a mountain, far from any roads.

This doesn't look like a nuclear test to me. But if it is a nuke test, it caused a 4.2 Richter event so it's only about 1 kiloton. The US dropped bigger conventional bombs on Afghanistan.
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warishell Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #130
136. I wonder if NK will release video footage?
To prove that they have tested a nuke?
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #130
138. Welcome to DU Nolo_Contendre
:hi:
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #130
146. The biggest MOAB was equivalent to about 30 tons of TNT
This blast was equivalent to between 1000 and 5000 tons of TNT, which is in the Hiroshima scale. There is no point in minimizing it.

As for the idea that the seismic signature isn't correct, it is an awful big coincidence that NK said they would test a bomb and bomb sized earthquake shows up the same day.
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Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #146
150. Remember the NK train expl? & Port Chicago, Halifax 1917, Texas City 1947
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Nolo_Contendre Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #146
151. Well, right again, except....
The weapon that the US used on the Japanese civilians in Hiroshima was a 15 kiloton weapon.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/experience/the.bom...
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #151
167. I said "in the Hiroshima scale"
Perhaps range would have been a better word, or "order of magnitude". 5 kt would do a lot of damage - not as much as Hiroshima, but in that general ballpark.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #130
157. Biggest US conventional bomb is the MOAB
Gross weight of 21,000 pounds, of which 18,700 pounds of it is military-grade explosive equal to 25,250 pounds or 12.6 tons of TNT.

The kiloton range puts it in the 'tactical nuke' catagory. This test was equal to dropping 80 MOABs at once, with the added bonus of radiation and radioactive isotopes. Yum yum!
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #130
240. I found this:
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/061009/480/6b81e6aeb58c4859... ;_ylt=Ag4SRebqyARfciWg2R0rrTJPXLoF;_ylu=X3oDMTBia2Jza2VjBHNlYwNnYWxsZXJ5

They apparently felt it in Russia.

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Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
135. Rove promised an "October Surprise" (I'm not an uber-conspiracy theorist).
I'm not an uber-conspiracy theorist and I doubt if there is a MIHOP, but a LIHOP October Surprise would be the simplest thing to let happen.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
145. Anyone hear Rep Rohrbach (sp) on BBC? He used the time to ...
...blame everyone who ever wanted to kill the missile defense system and then said anyone who thought diplomacy was a good idea is certainly reaslizing the error of their ways now.

Diplomacy? What diplomacy? Bush* killed diplomacy and now there IS a bomb!!!

What on earth is Japan going to do about it with no army?
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
147. Tell me... who feels safe with the current administration at the helm?
Who trusts the current group of thugs to protect us from nukes? America needs to take a long look at Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Hastert, et. al. and realize that they are directly responsible for the current threats to our national security.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
149. Oh Shit!
This is not good, not good at all...


(And I see that the knee-jerk conspiracy nuts are out in force :eyes: )
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warishell Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
152. NK test equal to 0.5kt TNT
Hiroshima bomb was equal to 12-13kt TNT so it seems this was a tiny nuke tested by NK. This does not prove that NK doesn't have more powerful nukes though.
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Nolo_Contendre Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #152
154. Actually, it appears to be a 2 kiloton test (or an earthquake)
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warishell Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #154
155. I got the info from Fox News
so you could be right lol.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #154
228. You won't find earthquakes at such shallow depths (less than 1 Km)
And I will point out that the early tests conducted by India and Pakistan were of extreme low yield, half a kiloton, just like North Korea's test.

North Korea has limited quantities of plutonium, it would be reckless for them to use their precious supply of plutonium in their first test. America has metric tons of plutonium!
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hsher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
153. Sorry, but I have *got* to show you guys this
This is my cartoon version of what The Daily Show's take might be on the NK nuclear test. Am I accurate? Do I have Jon Stewart down? If not, go ahead and dis me. On a night like this, I can take it. It's below by clicking the link. Thanks everyone who takes a look.


www.yourmorningleibowitz.blogspot.com
The Daily Show as a comic strip


Explanation: I'm so depressed by this news I had to draw something about it.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #153
159. Excellent! TDS writers may be copying off you tomorrow!
Er, well, today, I guess. You know what I mean! :-)
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hsher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #159
160. Thank you... still want to cry though
What a roller-coaster weekend this has been for us all. Elation, horror... elation, horror...
Thank you again for taking a look. I feel like I'm "channeling" that show!


www.yourmorningleibowitz.blogspot.com
The Daily Show as a comic strip
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #160
163. Riding high watching the GOP "De-Foley-ate", now this
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 02:22 AM by krispos42
<sigh> glad I live in farming country. Plenty to eat all around for after the economy collapses. Harvest, hunt, fish, whatever. Although I'm not a big fish fan.

<double-sigh> This was my one-thousandth post. Thought it was number 999. I wanted 1,000 to be special. Oh, well, it's still a good comic strip. :-)
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
156. I don't see how this is good for Bush and Bushites AT ALL. It's another
MAJOR fuckup. Forget the Faux and Freeper spin. Haven't you noticed that the American people don't pay any attention to corporate new monopolies' propaganda? Way back before the invasion of Iraq, for instance, 56% of the American people opposed that invasion of Iraq, even before all the lies were exposed. And even with HALF the people still believing that Saddam had WMDs, and/or had something to do with 9/11, they STILL oppose the Iraq war--and that opposition is now up in the 70% range. So, obviously, while they may have bits of disinformation rattling around in their heads, they are nevertheless thinking for themselves, they DON'T TRUST Bush, they didn't think that Saddam was much of a threat, and don't believe that war was the right action to take. And they are going to think the same thing about this--Bush fucked it up.

But beware of this: a pre-written narrative for post-election "explanations" of their miraculous comeback in the fall, which in reality will be the result of "trade secret," proprietary programming code, owned and controlled by Bushites corporations, proliferated all over the country by the 2002 "Help America Vote Act" $3.9 billion electronic voting boondoggle (engineered by the biggest crooks in the Anthrax Congress, Tom Delay and Bob Ney). THAT could happen--an entirely bogus "security issue" that "explains" an entirely bogus election. What I suspect is going to happen is the manufacture of a "close" election, spun as a comeback, but with maybe a tiny Dem majority in House or Senate or both, but a "majority" that is paralyzed by a number of Diebold (s)elected Bushite Democrats (of the kind who vote for torture). With this, they will try to head off the powerful election reform movement. They will say, the rigged machines are okay--"The Democrats won, didn't they?" Yet a combo of Bushites and Bushite Democrats will remain in control--no investigation of Bush Junta crimes, no getting out of Iraq, more bullshit of every kind--until we get rid of these rigged machines.

We must be very savvy and very vigilant about the above scenario (a very likely one), and be unrelenting in our local/state campaigns to get rid of these voting machines. This is far more serious than stupidity. It is tyranny. SECRET vote counting is tyranny! The No. Korean situation is exactly the sort of thing they WOULD create in order to have that post-election "talking points." They've been angling for this all along, and GOADING No. Korea to do it, despite the pleas of the So. Korean government to stop frightening and bullying and refusing to talk to the north. No. Korea having nukes gives the Bushites FEAR POWER--over us, over the So. Koreans, over the Japanese, over the Chinese. They LOVE nukes. They love having everyone cowering in fear of a nuclear holocaust. But it doesn't give them any more credit with anybody. The American people don't want this. And the rest of the world has had it with these people. They are fucking up the entire world in order to stay in power and keep looting us, and keep bullying everybody else, with impunity.

Stay focused, people. It's the SECRET vote counting!

Boycott the Machines--Vote by Absentee Ballot!
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EducatedDerelict Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
158. I can see it now: GOP Weekly Talking Points Memo
Bushco's Thing to Do List for 10.08.06:

-Rehash Star Wars gibberish.
-Rehash "Democrats cannot be trusted on national defense".
-Don't mention any solutions to an incredibly real problem.
-Cross your fingers that China, SK & Japan take care of all this for us.
-Quickly fire all gay Korean translators in the CIA and DIA.
-"Bring it on!"
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Hoploman Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
162. Blame Game
I don't think you can blame Bush. You can't blame Clinton either. North Korea would have built this regardless of any talks or deals. Same with Iran. The approach doesn't matter, they have an agenda.

Believe it or not folks, events around the world aren't always the result of our policies. Our good actions or bad actions sometimes are irrelevant. Yes, other nations will act and move toward goals we don't agree with regardless of what approach we use.

Clinton started off with 1 on 1 talks. He dealt with them. We gave them oil and food as well as a reactor. This policy continued into Bush's administration. This policy failed. We (not Clinton, not Bush) gave them what they wanted, but they didn't hold up their side of the deal. As a result, we terminated the privileges (mostly on Bush's watch).


Bush rejected the 1 on 1 talks, and wants 6 party talks. I believe this is a good thing. Whatever we do 1 on 1 with the North Koreans will never be legitimate. With 6 party talks, everything is transparent and North Korea cannot back out of a deal with 6 other nations as easily as it can with just the U.S. (which it already did under the Clinton plan). Right now, some Democrats are advocating 1 on 1 talks. We already tried that and it didn't work. Why should we do what the North Koreans want (which is 1 on 1 talks) when they have never followed through with anything?


The Clinton plan was a GOOD first step. We tried to deal with them. It didn't work. That's not Clinton's fault - it's the NK's fault!!!! This was important, as it proved to the world that we tried the nice-guy approach. The right-wing called this nuclear black mail. Regardless of their BS, that was the first step.


Bush has tried the hard-liner approach. It too has failed. He's tried to do the 6 party talks - he can't get them because China wasn't helping. They aren't helping because the probably want some sort of concessions over Taiwan. But maybe after this test he will. We'll have to see.


The worst thing Bush did was label them as part of the Axis Of Evil. That made things more difficult, but the North Koreans had no intentions of playing ball with us as evident by the failure of previous policy to try and deal with them. If Bush didn't invade Iraq, and didn't start all the Axis of Evil crap, it is possible that the hard-line approach, tough sanctions, and 6 party talks might have at least led to talks. It's ify. Really ify. We'll never know. I don't think it would have, but I can't say it would have been impossible either.


To suggest that the Clinton plan worked because NK didn't have a bomb at that time, while the Bush plan failed because they now have a nuke is completely absurd. The North Korean plans were set in motion in 1994, and today they've achieved their goal. No U.S. plan would have stopped it. We don't own them or control them. That's what I believe.


It is disgusting to start seeing the blame-game being played. I don't view this as a partisan matter. It doesn't help anyone to blame Clinton or Bush over this. It just weakens us. The American people need to just come to grips with reality. The reality that we can't dictate what others do. It is almost a foreign concept to Americans to the point that when our foreign policy fails - it must be because of a Democratic policy or a Republican policy.


It's because of NORTH KOREAN policy. Either we need to disengage entirely, or face the fact that we can't solve things the way we want all the time. Clinton/Bush policies have been interventionist policies. But, that's really been American policy since WW2.


I guess we're just going to have to let nuclear deterrence deal with this. Wait them out and let them collapse like the Soviet Union.
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Nolo_Contendre Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #162
164. An intelligent administration would have made a difference
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 02:28 AM by Nolo_Contendre
Bush is a warmonger and his saber rattling forces countries to defend themselves by any means necessary. Iran just has to look at Iraq to see what their future holds if they do NOT develop a nuclear deterrent to US attack or invasion.

An intelligent leadership would be deft enough to rally allies and the Chinese - our great trading partners and North Korea's biggest sponsor - to bring things under control. Instead, we have to deal with the literal and figurative fallout of our demented militaristic armageddon triumphalist administration and their neoconservative chickenhawk jingo cabal.

Make no excuses for those greedy hypocritical morons.
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Hoploman Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #164
166. Disagreed.
The heart of your argument suggests that Iran and North Korea want nukes because we're the bad guys. That's BS. I reject the idea that other countries (always) act the way they do because of OUR positions.

Nuclear weapons are highly desirable. They are almost guaranteed sovereignty. You aren't any other nation's bitch as a result.

More nations than just Iran and NK would love to have them, but have fallen under the sphere of influence of an already nuclear state and they are in a difficult position to ever even hint at the idea to go nuclear.

We can easily blame Bush for Iraq. That is one of the greatest disasters ever as it will lead to civil war, our eventual withdrawal, then a Turkish attack on Kurdistan, and an Iranian dominance over Shiiastan. (or whatever they will call it). But that's not the topic here.

We can't blame him for North Korea. I was disgusted to see someone on CNN suggest that NK has no choice and is going through all of this as a result of American aggression.

If that were true, why did they start their program in 1994 when there was ZERO American aggression? What did Clinton do to piss them off or "fear invasion" to justify beginning a nuclear weapons program? Answer that.
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Nolo_Contendre Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #166
168. US conflict with North Korea is decades old
Bush is just the most recent and least capable of the US leaders in dealing with that hermit state. You made the case for me when you wrote the first half of your message so I don't have to respond further.

Nuclear weapons are seen as a way of guaranteeing sovereignty and deterring attack. That becomes an understandable obsession to a tinpot dictator when he has been labelled part of the Axis of Evil by the brain damaged gunslinging Bush League fascists who then proceed to use Shock and Awe to take over another country that they have named as part of the Axis of Evil.

Bush screwed the pooch. Again. Anyone who is surprised by his miserable failure of a presidency hasn't been watching the rivers of blood flowing in the streets of Baghdad.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #166
169. Its Official NK is Nuclear
:nuke:
So is Pakistan
India
China
USA
Israel
France
Russia
as well as others

Japan is freaking out right now...
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #166
173. Oh please. You seem to forget that Iran had a moderate leadership
...until BushCo surrounded them with our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and dubbed them part of the Axis of Evil. Then -- surprise, surprise -- the Iranians elected a devil to match our own.

If we didn't have nukes and China invaded Mexico and Canada and started shaking its fist at us, what the hell do you think our government would be doing, knitting socks? No, I'm pretty sure we'd be doing everything we could to build a deterrent.

As for N. Korea, Bush** couldn't have been more counter-productive unless he'd dismissed the weapons inspectors and retrieved the needed fuel rods for Kim Jong-il himself.

On Oct. 4, 2002, officials from the U.S. State Department flew to Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea, and confronted Kim Jong-il's foreign ministry with evidence that Kim had acquired centrifuges for processing highly enriched uranium, which could be used for building nuclear weapons. To the Americans' surprise, the North Koreans conceded. It was an unsettling revelation, coming just as the Bush administration was gearing up for a confrontation with Iraq. This new threat wasn't imminent; processing uranium is a tedious task; Kim Jong-il was almost certainly years away from grinding enough of the stuff to make an atomic bomb.

But the North Koreans had another route to nuclear weapons--a stash of radioactive fuel rods, taken a decade earlier from its nuclear power plant in Yongbyon. These rods could be processed into plutonium--and, from that, into A-bombs--not in years but in months. Thanks to an agreement brokered by the Clinton administration, the rods were locked in a storage facility under the monitoring of international weapons-inspectors. Common sense dictated that--whatever it did about the centrifuges--the Bush administration should do everything possible to keep the fuel rods locked up.

Unfortunately, common sense was in short supply. After a few shrill diplomatic exchanges over the uranium, Pyongyang upped the ante. The North Koreans expelled the international inspectors, broke the locks on the fuel rods, loaded them onto a truck, and drove them to a nearby reprocessing facility, to be converted into bomb-grade plutonium. The White House stood by and did nothing.

Rolling Blunder - How the Bush administration let North Korea get nukes

The irony (and Bush** irony is never funny) is that at the same time, BushCo was jonesing for war with Iraq, using the threat of mushroom clouds from weapons they KNEW DID NOT EXIST. I remember well how I didn't laugh.
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lgn19087 Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #162
237. Great post.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #237
252. If You are a Bush Apologist
I guess... but his post disregards many facts... just spin.
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mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
172. Some links describing North Korea, for depth
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mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #172
174. The NK statement, full text
Text of N Korea's announcement
The following is the full text of the announcement carried on North Korea's official Korean Central News Agency as reported on the Reuters news agency:
"The field of scientific research in the DPRK (North Korea) successfully conducted an underground nuclear test under secure conditions on October 9, Juche 95 (2006) at a stirring time when all the people of the country are making a great leap forward in the building of a great, prosperous, powerful socialist nation.

"It has been confirmed that there was no such danger as radioactive emission in the course of the nuclear test as it was carried out under a scientific consideration and careful calculation.

"The nuclear test was conducted with indigenous wisdom and technology 100%. It marks a historic event as it greatly encouraged and pleased the KPA (Korean People's Army) and people that have wished to have powerful self-reliant defence capability.

"It will contribute to defending the peace and stability on the Korean peninsula and in the area around it."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6032597.stm
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mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #172
196. Seismic graph, from NORSAR in Norw.
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 07:36 AM by mogster

Picture shows NORSAR's registration on the station in Karasjok. Time is GMT.


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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
175. Mission Accomplished! Now they'll they'll have to let approve Star Wars!
I bet George smirked when he heard.
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:06 AM
Response to Original message
180. Not good for chimpie
it makes him look even more inept that this kind of thing is going on during his "watch".
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patrick t. cakes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
181. the harder they come the harder they fall
kim needs george
george needs kim




i love vodka and i love jimmy cliff....

hope to see DU in the moan-in
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:03 AM
Response to Original message
187. Reporters out in the dark in front of WH--nbc tv
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #187
188. US has confirmed some 'sismic' activity in NE Korea
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
190. AFP World condemns NKorea's nuclear test


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061009/wl_asia_afp/nkorea... ;_ylt=AgxoTrhUpPjvmXTzWb2batKs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-
World condemns NKorea's nuclear test

2 hours, 51 minutes ago

BEIJING (AFP) - China and the United States led condemnation around the world after
North Korea conducted its first nuclear test, slamming the move as provocative and, in some capitals, demanding a tough UN response.


China, Pyongyang's closest ally in the region, expressed its "resolute opposition" to the "brazen" test, carried out early Monday in defiance of worldwide appeals and threats of sanctions.

The White House condemned it as a "provocative act" and called for immediate action by the UN Security Council, while Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, in Seoul when news of the test first broke, called the move unpardonable.

Britain's Foreign Office likewise condemned it as a "highly provocative" act and vowed the international community would "respond robustly".

A Chinese foreign ministry statement on state television said North Korea, also known as the DPRK, "ignoring the general concern of the international community, brazenly undertook a nuclear test."
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
192. The October surprise ...
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 07:16 AM by Everybody
that isn't.

'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality judiciously, as you will we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.' -Senior Bush Advisor
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
193. Interesting article with the north korean spin

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/HJ06Dg01.html

snip
The main enemy to North Korea is the US, the sole surviving superpower in the world. Acquisition of hundreds of nuclear weapons by Japan and South Korea will not have any serious impact on the total balance of nuclear power. Japan and South Korea have too much to lose in a nuclear war with North Korea, while North Korea has little.

It is important to note that the nuclear weapons and long-range means of delivery are not aimed at South Korea and will be common property shared with South Korea under a confederated government.

The fifth and last point is a long, overdue farewell to the nuclear non-proliferation regime, with the Bush administration standing in the dock as prime defendant accused of sabotaging nuclear non-proliferation. Had the Americans been steadfast in upholding the nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty by reducing their nuclear weapons and respecting the sovereignty and independence of the non-nuclear states, North Korea would not have felt any need to defend itself with nuclear weapons.

A nuclear test by North Korea will go a long way toward emboldening anti-American states around the world to acquire nuclear weapons. There is a long line of candidate states.

It is important to note that the North Korean Foreign Ministry pledges to faithfully implement its international commitment in the field of nuclear non-proliferation as a responsible nuclear-weapons state and to prohibit nuclear transfer.
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intaglio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
195. Possibilities which are not being broadcast
Firstly, it is possible to fake the seismic signature of a nuclear blast using conventional explosives but it is difficult. Nuclear blasts will have a very small initial pulse as conventional explosives trigger the "gun" (for U235) or the implosion (Plutonium type) then there is a very sudden and massive input of energy as the runaway chain reaction occurs.

Secondly, it is far more likely that China would take action rather than the US as they regard NK as being in their sphere of influence. The big "but" would be that the current administration would rather their balls were torn out than let China act.
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brentblack Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
198. This is all scarey, of course, but....
....On Wednesday, Internet Poker will be outlawed in the US!

That is the real tragedy!
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oc2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
200. Another Triumph of the Bush Doctrine?
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 09:26 AM by oc2002
the Doctrine of 'lets fuck it all up' and say we are not responsible, its Clintons fault.

gee, maybe they should of negotiated with NK directly instead of IGNORING NK for years.
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allemand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
201. North Korea may be preparing second test: intelligence (AFP)
9 October 2006

SEOUL - Unusual activities were detected in a rugged area in North Korea on Monday, causing South Korean authorities to suspect that the communist state might be preparing a second nuclear test, a news report said.

Kim Seung-Gyu, head of South Koreas spy agency, told parliament that activity involving vehicles and some 30 to 40 people was under way at Punggyeri in the northeastern county of Kilju, Yonhap news agency reported.

From three p.m. (06:00 GMT) today, there have been some unusual movements under way at Punggyeri where we had thought the first nuclear test would be carried out, Kim was quoted as saying.

We have been closely following developments there to find out whether North Korea is moving to conduct a series of tests as India and Pakistan did, he said.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile...
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cabral Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
203. My first reaction, shit Bush will invade Iran..
Iran you better be ready Bush is coming for ya all...
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Mendocino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
204. I talked to a friend minutes ago, a Geology professor.
She said all the data so far is consistent with a nuclear test.
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Patrick J Fitzgerald Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
206. BIG DEAL
BIGGER DEAL -

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Bretttido Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
208. Doesn't seem like big news to me
We've already known that they have a dozen or so nuclear weapons. Now they have one less.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
210. It now seems inevitable that a major US city will be gone
within ten years.

The bidding just started for 15kiloton nukes on the open market.
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jseankil Donating Member (604 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #210
219. Only if North Korea wants to be destroyed (and they don't)
I don't think NK is building nukes to sell them. Even if they are caught trying to sell them Kim and the rest of S. Korea will be brought down. And remember these weapons are large and must be maintained. NK is using nukes to bargain with, not use.
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Bretttido Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #210
221. Oh please, way to fan the flames of fear
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #221
231. Well, maybe not inevitable...
But, consider the thousands of people throughout the middle east who have been radicalized by Bush's invasion of Iraq and his tacit approval of Israel's actions.
Seeing your family blown up by US ordnance probably makes you want to get some payback.

Then take into account the amount of money flowing into al Queda from oil profits.

Look at how poor North Korea is.

Look at how porous US port security is and exactly what percentage of shipping containers are searched.

It doesn't look good.

The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists says that a nuclear terrorist attack on a major US city is more likely than not in the coming years.

I believe Warren Buffet used the word "inevitable" also.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #210
242. You mean a second major U.S. city
Don't forget New Orleans.
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allisonthegreat Donating Member (586 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
212. Anyone know where NK is getting
the supplies to build these nukes???
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #212
214. Out of the cooling pond in Yongbyo
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Taoschick Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #212
233. Pakistan
And perhaps Russia and China to some extent. "Underground" dealers as well. They caught some guy in Germany who was trying to ship equipment through China several years ago.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
213. Now, Lil' Kim Jong Ill is going to start lobing those things at us...
of course all our troops are in Iraq fighting a useless war and we won't be able to stop him.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #213
230. You're kidding, right?
He's a lot of things, but suicidal isn't one of them.

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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #213
235. Let's not lose touch with reality
1.) Soldiers being in Iraq are irrelevant. North Korea can't do squat now that they could not do two days ago.
2.) His nukes are not usefully weaponized, and that can take some years.
3.) This was the excuse the international community needed to do something substantive about the nutjob, so in many ways the nuke test was constructive.


Militarily, North Korea is pretty impotent but it can still leave a regional mess. North Korea is a client state of China, so at the end of the day it is up to China to take care of this problem, not the US. If China decides that NK has outlived its usefulness, the North Korean regime's days will be numbered. The single biggest reason the US is there at all is to prevent the militarization of Japan so that China does not get nervous.

The only plausible risk North Korea poses to the US is economic, primarily because of the damage NK could cause to its neighbors in the region. South Korea have far more to lose and far more influence, and always have. Having nukes does not automatically make a country dangerous in a military sense.
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FujiZ1 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #235
247. You just did.
You must really enjoy this stuff, gives you a moment to step outside of the office and become a grand military leader. North Korea isn't going to attack anyone, there's no point in even speculating.
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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
215. This really worries me!
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IWantAChange Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
225. If Repugs are the only ones who can keep America safe .....
what the Hell happened? 80% of NK's plutonium on Dubyha's watch? Nuclear bomb tests? American soldiers within spitting distance of North Korea? A military stretched beyond human limits by that genius Rumsfeld? Thank goodness the Nixon era rejects - Cheney, Rumsfeld and Henry Kissinger are back in the picture - their last 'war' went really well didn't it??

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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
232. GOP allowed Korea to do this to justify Star Wars and Cold War weapons
Systems.

They know NK isn't gonna invade us or hit us and we sure as hell aren't gonna hit them.

This is a great excuse to pump some cash into those conventional weapons for fighting a big army and also Star Wars. Those guys have been out of the pie since these smaller conflicts have been the focus. Bush finally figureed out a way to bring them in!
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allisonthegreat Donating Member (586 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #232
241. Bush is a diabolical so and so...n/t
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Thor_MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
248. Smaller than the Divine Strake fiasco that was canceled in Nevada....
Divine Strake was going to be about 700 tons of ANFO. More powerful than Kim's bomb and only slightly less portable. I'm not going to lose any sleep over this...
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